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Appeals Court Upholds Sanction Against BitTorrent Download Attorney

NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "The United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit has upheld sanctions awarded by a District Court against one of the lawyers bringing copyright infringement cases against individuals for BitTorrent movie downloads, in Mick Haig Productions v. Does 1-670. The Court's opinion (PDF) described the lawyer's 'strategy' as 'suing anonymous internet users for allegedly downloading pornography illegally using the powers of the court to find their identity, then shaming or intimidating them into settling for thousands of dollars — a tactic that he has employed all across the state and that has been replicated by others across the country.'"

23 of 90 comments (clear)

  1. The worst part of it.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    He numbered his Does 1-670 instead for 0-669. For shame.

  2. Plea bargains? by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 5, Insightful

    But if capitalizing on the accused's inability to weather the risks and costs of trial are an unacceptable tactic, doesn't that mean plea deals by prosecutors are also unacceptable?

    1. Re:Plea bargains? by macraig · · Score: 2

      I wondered this same thing when reading about one of the earlier smackdowns. And what of arbitration? Is a courtroom a place of justice for all, or merely the "Hell" used to terrify and coerce disadvantaged people into some desired behavior?

    2. Re:Plea bargains? by Sqr(twg) · · Score: 2

      But if capitalizing on the accused's inability to weather the risks and costs of trial are an unacceptable tactic, doesn't that mean plea deals by prosecutors are also unacceptable?

      Yes.

    3. Re:Plea bargains? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I always thought, that the fairest court of all, would be the one where the "prosecutor" (for lack of better term) would be searching for the "truth", not necessarily going for "conviction". This would remove the adversarial nature of the whole court process, it would be about discovering the "truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth".

      The flip side is, that if you "did the crime" you'd be offered two choices. Plead or trial, with much stiffer penalties for trial than for pleading. How many trials are for people so obviously guilty that everyone in the court already knows they did it (film, witnesses, caught in the act etc) that get trials because they want the charade of a trial.

      To Temper the Prosecution's zeal, they would be held accountable for all the prosecutions they have, and if they get a "conviction" of someone who is later proved innocent (i.e. DNA proof), that they are tossed in Jail for the remainder of the plaintiffs sentence.

      All Lawyers would be "public" lawyers, and would be assigned randomly to one side or the other side of the case. Lawyers with extensive experience and a proven record would be eligible for Judgeships.

      I'm sure it isn't a perfect system, but I suspect that it would function better than the crapshoot and Lawyer Wars we have now.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    4. Re:Plea bargains? by Tanktalus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I always thought, that the fairest court of all, would be the one where the "prosecutor" (for lack of better term) would be searching for the "truth", not necessarily going for "conviction". This would remove the adversarial nature of the whole court process, it would be about discovering the "truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth".

      This makes some sense. The state has significantly more resource available than your average accused and should always be interested in truth and justice, not convictions. Unfortunately, management gets in the way, and they want to measure something. Measuring convictions is way too easy to measure, nevermind that it measures the Wrong Thing.

      The flip side is, that if you "did the crime" you'd be offered two choices. Plead or trial, with much stiffer penalties for trial than for pleading. How many trials are for people so obviously guilty that everyone in the court already knows they did it (film, witnesses, caught in the act etc) that get trials because they want the charade of a trial.

      Again, fairly reasonable. Playing poker for time instead of money, makes sense.

      To Temper the Prosecution's zeal, they would be held accountable for all the prosecutions they have, and if they get a "conviction" of someone who is later proved innocent (i.e. DNA proof), that they are tossed in Jail for the remainder of the plaintiffs sentence.

      Woah, Nelly. That's almost like penalising me the cost of fixing a bug for having written one. A bit extreme. Yes, if there is evidence of malicious prosecution, I don't think prosecutorial immunity should apply. However, mistakes are made, and you don't throw someone in jail for mistakes. Even today, police officers and prosecutors will decline charges over mistakes (at least if they're in a good mood). Don't make them more snarky, please.

      And if prosecutorial misconduct is proven, "remainder of the plaintiff's sentence" is only going to make them stall and/or obstruct. It's a new criminal charge, it gets its own time. But I could go for a karmic "the greater of 2 years and the time served by the maliciously prosecuted".

      All Lawyers would be "public" lawyers, and would be assigned randomly to one side or the other side of the case. Lawyers with extensive experience and a proven record would be eligible for Judgeships.

      I'm sure it isn't a perfect system, but I suspect that it would function better than the crapshoot and Lawyer Wars we have now.

      Unfortunately, at least in the US, "free speech" would prevent this aspect.

    5. Re:Plea bargains? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

      Again, fairly reasonable. Playing poker for time instead of money, makes sense.

      It's a terrible idea, and I, personally think that the US thing for plea bargaining is a bad abuse of the justice system.

      A fundemental principle is innocence until being proven guilty. Such a scheme gives a large disincentive to actually fight for your innocence. It is also too easily abused withthe police and prosecutors happy to keep stacking up the charges to make the bargain look like a better option.

      You claim it's like poker. There are two problem with this.

      1) It's a pretty messed up idea to have people gamble for their rights.

      2) More importantly, it isn't like poker, since the prosecution can raise the stakes for you without raising the stakes for them. If they tack on every charge they can think of, you are screwed badly if you lose, and the chances go up of losing something. No matter how high they push the stakes for you they only stand to lose the same.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    6. Re:Plea bargains? by mutube · · Score: 3, Informative

      I always thought, that the fairest court of all, would be the one where the "prosecutor" (for lack of better term) would be searching for the "truth", not necessarily going for "conviction".

      You're describing the Inquisitorial system of justice as practised in such exotic locations as France (and most of the world using civil as opposed to common law).

    7. Re:Plea bargains? by dnwheeler · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is one of the biggest problems with our current legal system, which in my opinion makes the system "broken."

      Right now, we have two sides arguing the extremes, but no one arguing for the truth. We already have a group who is supposed to be determining the truth - the jury. Unfortunately, this group is explicitly forbidden from doing their own research, collecting their own evidence, or making a determination that the truth is anything but either of the two extremes presented by the prosecution and the defense.

      I have similar concerns about evidence. If a piece of evidence is improperly obtained, it is thrown out. The problem is that it is _still evidence_ of the truth. We should be trying to determine the truth, and any and all evidence, no matter how it was obtained, should be considered. Having said that, I think that the act of improperly obtaining evidence should be tried as a crime itself. If evidence is obtained by police illegally, that evidence is still _real_ and should used, but the police involved should be tried for violating the law.

      The goal of our legal system should always be to determine the truth, even if that truth doesn't align with either the prosecutor's or defense's position.

    8. Re:Plea bargains? by P-niiice · · Score: 2

      I have similar concerns about evidence. If a piece of evidence is improperly obtained, it is thrown out. The problem is that it is _still evidence_ of the truth. We should be trying to determine the truth, and any and all evidence, no matter how it was obtained, should be considered. Having said that, I think that the act of improperly obtaining evidence should be tried as a crime itself. If evidence is obtained by police illegally, that evidence is still _real_ and should used, but the police involved should be tried for violating the law.

      1. Police will abuse this in any and all ways possible because:
      2. Police are never tried for or convicted of anything.

  3. Using the power of the court, without permission, by hamjudo · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The District Court is unhappy, because the lawyer issued the subpoenas without the permission of the District Court. In fact, it was after the District Court told the lawyer to stop doing that. The Appellate Court agreed.

    So the Appellate Court is upholding the rights of the lower court.

    Don't expect the courts to start ruling against media companies that follow the laws that they paid the legislatures to write. Don't even expect significant sanctions when they break the law, as long as they stop when they're told. It looks kind of like this is a media ruling, but its more a "respect the judges" ruling.

  4. Re:Lawyers are professional Bullshitters. by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You can also blunder like an idiot, like most people under pressure, and get circles ran around you by a legal circus act of a well paid attorney.

    --

    "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
  5. The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
    http://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm
    http://pastebin.com/irj4Fyd5

  6. He missed step 2 by whoever57 · · Score: 4, Funny

    a tactic that he has employed all across the state and that has been replicated by others across the country"

    Should have got a patent on the process!

    --
    The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
  7. And what do "Sanctions" mean? by Drishmung · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Drawn and quartered?

    I don't think we do that any more.

    "For the term of his natural life"?
    I'm betting not.

    Some time in prison?
    After all, as an officer of the court, he's undermined the institution. Surely this should be treated seriously?

    A large fine?
    ???

    ...and of course, disbarment.

    I really don't know, but I'm guessing none of the above.
    So, what are the consequences of his actions?

    --
    Protoplasm. Quiet Protoplasm. I like quiet protoplasm.
    1. Re:And what do "Sanctions" mean? by Ravensfire · · Score: 5, Informative

      From the ruling,
      "the court imposed $10,000 in sanctions on Stone and also required the following:
      1) Stone shall serve a copy of this Order on each ISP implicated and
      to every person or entity with whom he communicated for any purpose
      in these proceedings.
      2) Stone shall file a copy of this Order in every currently-ongoing
      proceeding in which he represents a party, pending in any court in
      the United States, federal or state.
      3) Stone shall disclose to the Court whether he received funds,
      either personally or on behalf of Mick Haig, and whether Mick Haig
      received funds for any reason from any person or entity associated
      with these proceedings, regardless of that person’s status as a Doe
      Defendant or not, (excepting any fees or expenses paid by Mick Haig
      to Stone).
      4) Stone shall pay the Ad Litems’ attorneys’ fees and expenses reasonably
      incurred in bringing the motion for sanctions. The Ad
      Litems shall file an affidavit or other proof of such fees and expenses
      with the Court within thirty (30) days of the date of this Order.
      Stone may contest such proof within seven (7) days of its filing.
      Stone shall comply with these directives and supply the Court with
      written confirmation of his compliance no later than forty-five (45)
      days after the date of this Order."

      -- Ravensfire

      --
      "But we decide which is right, and which is an illusion"
    2. Re:And what do "Sanctions" mean? by Ravensfire · · Score: 3, Informative

      The appeal court decision mentioned that the original request was for some 26k. Personally, I think the fine is intended as a "wake up" slap. The nice part of the sanction is #2. He's been bad and now potentially lots of other courts will know about it and be able to check if he's pulling the same stunt again. And usually subsequent sanctions get harsher.

      -- Ravensfire

      --
      "But we decide which is right, and which is an illusion"
    3. Re:And what do "Sanctions" mean? by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 2

      The ad litem attorneys were two public interest groups--Public Citizen and the EFF. Most of the attorneys there work there for well below what they would command on the private market.

      --
      -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
  8. Re:Using the power of the court, without permissio by Theaetetus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The District Court is unhappy, because the lawyer issued the subpoenas without the permission of the District Court. In fact, it was after the District Court told the lawyer to stop doing that. The Appellate Court agreed.

    So the Appellate Court is upholding the rights of the lower court.

    Don't expect the courts to start ruling against media companies that follow the laws that they paid the legislatures to write. Don't even expect significant sanctions when they break the law, as long as they stop when they're told. It looks kind of like this is a media ruling, but its more a "respect the judges" ruling.

    Exactly right. This is a "wtf were you doing sending subpoenas to the ISPs, and then wtf were you doing not responding to the show cause order?!" At most, it's dicta indicating that the judges (properly) aren't going to accept these "sue 50 Does, get discovery, demand settlements, and then drop the case if anyone argues" suits. This will have no effect on the more legally legitimate, if morally questionable, RIAA/MPAA suits, which do proceed.

  9. Re:Using the power of the court, without permissio by Baloroth · · Score: 4, Informative

    That is the specific grounds for the sanctions, but if you read the actual court order they make it pretty clear they despise his tactics overall, which is a good sign (not sure if it sets any kind of precedent, but it might). The judge seemed pretty pissed over the idea of what he was doing, not just the fact that he was breaking the rules. I may be reading slightly too much into it, but I don't think so.

    --
    "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
  10. Re:Lawyers are professional Bullshitters. by Alien+Being · · Score: 2, Informative

    Just wait outside the courthouse for the asshole lawyer and smash his/her skull with a baseball bat. Works every time and its good for mind, body, soul and society.

  11. Not quite by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 3, Informative

    Actually, the appellate court didn't agree--they just said that the attorney suing the does had waived his right to make the arguments he made on appeal, because he hadn't made them below and on-time.

    In other words, he lost the appeal on a technicality. He might well have lost it on the merits as well, but it never got that far.

    The only especially notable thing about this is a circuit court on record talking about the pattern of abusive litigation in mass-porn lawsuits.

    --
    -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
  12. Re:Lawyers are professional Bullshitters. by TapeCutter · · Score: 5, Informative

    That's why you instruct a good lawyer to write them a " So sue me, motherfucker!" letter for $100 tops, then do nothing unless they actually proceed with their bluff (which in the US is a small but non-zero risk)*. Enaging them by responding to subsequent threats allows you (or your lawyer) to say something silly and them to get a foot in the door of the negotiating room. There's and excellent TED talk on precisely this subject that I'm too lazy to look for but it doesn't just apply to copyright. I had personal experience of a roof tiling company who attempted to take advantage of a freind's elderly mother by charging her $9K for what was a $6K job on the open market. They were at the point of harrasing her with heavy handed debt collectors. A properly worded letter from my lawyer which he kindly did for FREE and a cheque for the $6K she and the family had originally agreed to was sent to the roof company by registered mail, we never heard another word about it.

    *In most western countries outside of the US, this sort of behaviour is called "extortion".

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.