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Ask Slashdot: Resources For Identifying Telecom Right-of-Way Locations?
An anonymous reader writes "With threats to network neutrality, such as Verizon's recent lawsuit, I've been thinking of creating a map plotting all the locations where telecommunications companies currently use public lands via right-of-way laws. It seems that this would convey just how much telecommunications depends on public infrastructure. However, it's been difficult identifying where these locations are. Short of crowdsourcing, does anyone know of resources that could be used to create such a map?"
now go away
They go right to where they need !!
Sounds like the information a terrorist would be looking for -- I'd watch your cornhole, bud.
You'll have to talk to the county assessor and recorder to get the plat maps.
Some counties have online systems to download the images, most you'll have to go in in person and ask.
THL phish sticks
A while back, a PhD candidate at George Mason University collected a lot of this information from public records. He create a large database/map of all the utility routes in the US. His thesis was classified:
http://www.portlandphoenix.com/features/technophilia/documents/03028866.asp
Identify the public lands you're interested in and then go to the county government offices (recorder probably) and research easements on those properties. Many counties are starting to put that information up online. Not sure if easements on public lands would show up on tax maps but that would be a place to look as well.
http://www.dot.state.mn.us/maps/gisweb/row/
The bikini - security through obscurity since 1943
Unfortunately getting that info is hard enough for contractors to obtain, even those working on the utilities. Some would say its a security issue, another because they may or may not be accurate (A fair amount of the time it is the later). They are a part of the public record. Subdivision plats usually show where they were supposed to go. County records departments usually have this info as well.
Crowd sourcing would work, but again accuracy is a MAJOR issue. Having a utility company come out and mark where their utilities are is your best bet (doesn't scale though) and again, may be wrong. Just note that almost every house usually has water/sewer/power/cable/telephone lines and expand that to block, city, state and you'll get the idea across.
Tonights forecast: Dark. Continued dark throughout most of the evening, with some widely-scattered light towards morning
Most of the long-lines right of ways (RoWs) are along railroads, not public lands. The 2nd largest amount of RoWs crosscut underneath private property, such as underneath high-voltage electric transmission lines where the legal-infrastructure for the RoW was already in place for the electric grid.
What you're actually looking for are right-of-way easements, which should be on record on a county by county basis in the county clerk's office. Or at least they are in my state, Oklahoma. This is not a task for a weekend hobby though. Be prepared to wade through miles of legaleze and title law, depending on who owns the underlying property and how the right-of-way was granted. Another place to start would be the state agency that regulates utilities in your state(ex: Oklahoma Corporation Commission).
Charming man. I wish I had a daughter so I could forbid her to marry one. -Arthur Dent
...unless you enjoy "extra security" when you fly, having your mail opened, your electronic communications "monitored", etc.
This isn't, unfortunately for you, a 'just fucking google it' sort of project; but the data should exist in some form.
Most municipalities have, as some appendage of their government(whether zoning and planning, some independent office, some weird outgrowth of the IT shop, whatever) a GIS service of some flavor(Newark, NJ purely for example. What you can get online varies widely, and may or may not be utter shit; but it can generally put you in touch with somebody who actually knows something about the available GIS records for the area. No guarantee that they won't assume that anybody who cares about utility locations is a terrorist, or that inquiries are billed at $.25/poorly photocopied page; but it exists.
Similarly clunky; but also sometimes useful, would be the utility easement information that is(sometimes) recorded on property deeds, which are also a matter of (not necessarily well cataloged and easily searchable) public record.
Another option, in the states that they cover, would be to have a friendly chat with the folks at http://www.digsafe.com/ . This is some sort of public/private industry consortium thing designed to keep backhoes away from their natural food sources, namely fiber lines and gas mains. Since their entire purpose in life is locating vulnerable underground utility fixtures before somebody fucks them up, they should have a decent idea of where (underground only) utility lines run. I don't know how much persuading they would require to release information to somebody who doesn't fit their usual "Hi, I want to dig a big hole at 123 main St, is that a problem?" customer profile, though...
Try the Call Before You Dig website.
Indeed, one major telecom company is named for its railroad easements: SPRINT, the Southern Pacific Railroad Intercontinental Network of Telecommunications, although the latter 3 letters are likely :-) a backronym after Southern Pacific Communications Corporation (SPCC) changed its name to SPRINT.
Quite a while ago for work I was asked to verify where the circuits we're using come into our buildings to verify diverse entry - basically to reduce the chances of a 'backhoe day'. Even tho we were paying for the DS3s, the BEST I could get out of the major carriers was "Well, they go from your site, to (city X), to (city Y)."
The carriers just figure "It's need to know. And even tho you're paying $massive, you don't need to know."
Sorry, but this is dumb. All you need to do is call the "call before you dig" number and say you are planning on putting some very deep fenceposts all the way around the property. Within 72 hours you will have nice spray-painted, color-coded lines marking all underground utilities. Follow the lines to the building, then identify what wires are on the inside of the building for each entry point. If the telco guy shows up and only sprays one line, you know you have a problem.
I doubt very much is on public land, there isn't a whole lot of public land in populated areas.
Even if you do find some easements it wouldn't mean anything; they lease the use of that land don't they?
Simple answer: Anywhere you see a power line, and then some.
Aside from the unparalleled powers of eminent domain enjoyed by utility companies in most states, you also have simple "prescriptive" easements just about anywhere you can see a power line.
So the short answer: Everywhere. The first three feet in from the road of just about every property in the US counts as a utility right-of-way.
I am personally locked into a fight with the county to get the road easement (15 foot wide alley) on my property disolved since it is being used heavily as a short cut to avoid a major intersection nearby rather than to give access to my neighobors so they can reach their property.
The only thing you can do is look up the land surveys, which are public record, and look at them to see who the easement was given to. It will be difficult since they were probably handed out some time ago and probably changed hands more than a few times. This is a very labor intensive project, I highly doubt you will find any sort of product that is easy and free.
Just from working in a municipal government with Rights-of-Way (ROW) and Easements. I would say that the vast majority of telecom infrastructure is in public ROWs and easements. My gut feeling is 90%.
Figuring how much exactly in on easements and ROWs, even on a small scale, is a huge a problem. Some places have hired someone to record the easements and ROW into a GIS system, some places, haven't. Some places have great maps of ROW, some don't. Until the state or federal government says you must, local governments won't. If money doesn't come to help, it still won't happen.
not Dumb, but rather astute: Paint on the ground may be in a logical "best guess" location... maybe not. The telco guys just don't know! The paint is for the construction crews to tell them to be careful when they dig in that location, nothing more. Actual locations are seldom noted when constructed, and easements are often described as "along a line of poles to be constructed".
Been in the land boundary business for a few weeks short of 40 years... it ain't simple like that.
I appreciate that you used big words.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Rights of way are not "public infrastructure" and your use of the word "crowdsource" really means
"make it someone else's problem."
Why don't you, instead of delegated to "everyone else to solve my problem" of "things I misstate or
don't understand" just go away.
Slashdot editors... shame on you. This is a non-story about a guy who knows nothing trying to make
a story about nothing and hoping other people find something.
It's a non-starter.
E
You've never called a call before you dig service then, because you really don't seem to know what you're talking about. They come out, they hook a signal generator up to the ground shielding of the cables, and they walk around with a meter to find their location and paint them on the ground. They are actually quite accurate in both location and depth.
Actually, the "call before you dig" people come out with sensors. to find the wires. "best guess" should be within a few inches of where underground wires and pipes are. They come out with metal detectors, and follow them from known locations.
For water and gas pipes, they're pretty easy, since they're metal pipes.
For copper telco and cable, they're also (obviously) metal conductors.
From something like Verizon FiOS, there is a tracer lead along the fiber that has metal, so they can be detected.
After seeing quite a few done, I know they diverge from the obvious path (the right of way), to go to the destination. I've seen lines run diagonally across yards. Sometimes they'll do "the right thing", and follow the sidewalk, then turn up the side of the driveway or adjacent to the property line. In any case, knowing if it's 6 inches or 6 feet from the driveway is kind of important if you're having new work done.
For some more expensive runs, I have seen where they'll put up empty junction boxes at intervals. Some were fairly close, like every 20 feet. Some have been more distant, like every 100 feet or so. From what I've observed, they'll put the boxes closer, where people won't complain about the aesthetics, and where it's likely someone else will come along digging.
It's fairly easy to be "careful" digging with a hand shovel. You'll hopefully notice when you hit a cable. but quite often they don't feel any worse than a small tree root. If they're digging with heavier equipment, it can be downright impossible to know if you just went through a gas line until you see the broken pipe.
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
As one other commented noted: there was someone who did this and the report was classified. I attempted to do something similar about 2003: I was essentially told piss off. (Clarification: I was a grad student, looking into seeing how much fibre had been laid around the city, and figure out how much of it was dark.) Initially, I was told that I could pay $10,000 to get a GIS map of the data within my city - but that it would not include some federal lines, just private ones. I seriously considered paying, and went down to discuss it further with the city to see if it would contain what I needed. I was informed that the policy had been changed, and that data was no longer publicly available. (USA)
I work for a large CA county. This sort of info en masse/online is strictly verboten to give to non-approved customers. We'd have to refer them to SCE for any kind of info release, and any info we already have is strictly on a case-by-case basis. With many utilities stretching through the desert, vandalism/terrorism would be a SERIOUS concern, and rightly so. I'd be up for real discipline, up to and including termination, for releasing the location of utilities of any kind willy-nilly.
Now, if anyone really wanted to, a lot of driving and a GPS would be needed. Then you could get a rough approximation of what land was involved, and try looking up the right parcels. You had better be able to read an Assessor's map like a newspaper article, and have your magnifying glass handy. My personal observation is that very often, a tower stands on its own little parcel around the base, privately owned by the operating company. Otherwise they can just pay a willing property owner some lease money. Easement info is not available from our GIS office here; in our county you'd need to wrest it from the Assessor's office, which would promptly be sending the office surveillance footage to the Sheriff so it could be forwarded to the local Feds. There are websites about towers, but I've never seen a handy map on any of them. Bear in mind also, if you see a tower, it may be old and inactive - the technology advances so fast, I think the active life of any one tower is pretty short. And most towers, I think, are shared by more than one provider/carrier - good luck finding out who did most of the funding.
Enough damage is done by desperate druggies/boneheads digging up fiber lines in a search for copper to sell.
Why would any of the Telcos (or anyone else) care that they're using public infrastructure? The current "free market" business model in the US it to get the government to pay for as much as you possibly can. Football teams get public money for stadiums, businesses that are "too big to fail" get handouts. Almost all companies use the public infrastructure. This model is strongly supported by both parties.
The available maps of service areas, and specific locations of infrastructure, are held as potential "terrorist assets" (although, through typical "security theater," they don't bother saying how attacked on these components would be attractive to some would be terrorist, who'd be much more likely to attack and contaminate the water system).
Basically, telcos--aided and abetted by the government--make broad and extravagant claims about coverage (why, right here where I live, the "Desolation wildnerness" prohibits entry except on foot or horseback, and there are no addresses there, but, if maps are to be believed, the area has marvelous high-speed coverage for Internet services).
For my county alone (aobut 88,000 households and businesses), I am planning a "primary research" survey to find out who has Internet service, and who doesn't). Do do that on a national scale will require tremendous effort and cost.
I know that visiting my local Forest Ranger District HQ recently got me a map of all the cell sites within their jurisdiction, but that would require individual visits to the thousands of sites the govenment own across the Country.
So, to be clear: The precision of data you can get from telcos and the regulatory agencies is as precise as those "coverage maps" for their "cellular service area;" Dramatically more aspirational than factual.
If they're digging with heavier equipment, it can be downright impossible to know if you just went through a gas line until you see the broken pipe. House blow up
FTFY
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
I'm the original poster of the question. I realized after I submitted the post that it was somewhat unclear, and apologize in that regard.
I think most people here understood the point of my question, and have been helpful. You make a good point about the railroads.
What I'm interested in, basically, is being able to map where telecommunications companies are benefiting from the public either by (1) having resources on public lands, or (2) having right-of-way access on private property, without any sort of lease with the property owner.
So I am interested in the second case you mention potentially.
The feds (US) created the map you want as part of the Federal Stimulus program (NTIA BTOP http://www2.ntia.doc.gov/about)
I am sure they did not get it all, because the carriers did not like to give up this information. They feel that knowledge of dark fiber would be helpful to their competitors but the feds made it a condition for the grants.
They put some of that information on line, although not in the way you want, as the National Broadband Map. I believe they are interested in public input to this map (where do the hills block the wireless signals, how far out does the DSL stop working)
http://www.broadbandmap.gov/technology
I think you will find that almost all fiber in public right of way is paid. At least around here, you cannot plow in some fiber along side a state road with paying the DOT and you cannot put fiber into city conduit without paying the city. Now everyone can have their own opinion about what is a fair price for access, but I am sure that the carriers feel that they are paying their fair share for use of public right of way. Still the price to get the permissions lot by lot would have been much much more than what they are paying the local governments (and power companies?).
One of the things I deal with is leases. This includes leases for Right of Way. I've worked for Verizon. I will not name any of my other past or current employers.
Let me tell you a little secret:
We did not even know the locations of all of our right of ways. We would find out about them when someone would bill us for them.
For water and gas pipes, they're pretty easy, since they're metal pipes.
Lots of water pipes are not metal. Many are stone or PVC. Some, believe it or not, are even wood.
Around here, telecom has rights to dig up a good portion of your private property. Something like 10' from the road is fair-game.
In most places they can only dig where they have some form of easement on your property which permits that specific use of your property. For example I have an easement on a portion of my property to allow servicing of the electrical lines. They can only use this easement for certain specific purposes. Any use other than those purposes or anywhere outside the easement is a violation of the law and they can be subject to prosecution.
I know from recent personal experience that utilities and telecoms tend to assume that people won't actually know their rights and basically trespass at will.
When you have succeeded in finding a few used public lands, you will become better at guessing where others might be.
You're asking the wrong questions. Ask for DLRs: Design Layout Records. I have a number of metro area rings in a few large cities around the country and we have street level maps of the paths including where they are aerial vs buried. Be persistent.
They are a backronym. IIRC, it was Southern Pacific Railroad INternal [Telephone | Telecommunications].
This would make a fine layer on OSM. I had a friend who had to dig for this sort of information back when he was starting an ISP. AT&T: "you want to buy service off our fiber where? Do people actually live there? You have money? Well, OK then."
That fiber ran along the train tracks. Local geeks just happen to walk tracks and read pull-box labels.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Most of the verification of where the underground utilities are located is not done from maps, it's done by metal detection and simple detective work.
I've worked in the cable and telecom business for 20+ years, and I can tell you the typical cable and phone company may have a rough idea of where the cables are.. but they don't know exactly where they are down to the foot. My cable company, for example, knows that the feeder cable off node 201A goes down Empire Ave., and is on the electric company's pole from the freeway to 8th, and turns right at 8th. But just looking at the maps and legal documents doesn't tell you what side of the street it is on. And the legal documents are a blanket agreement between us and the electric company to use their poles at a particular altitude. The electric line continues for another few miles down Empire, but we don't use it beyond 8th.
Most of the knowledge is with the engineers and maintenance techs who work in the field. Even a lot of that knowledge gets out-of-date pretty fast, and a good chunk of the troubleshooting steps they must engage in is a game of "find the cable."
So, no, we don't have maps quite like you would expect. No cable or telephone company I've ever worked with has very detailed (let alone accurate) records.
As a former telephone contractor all over the continental US, I can say with certainty that the majority of aerial telephone cable is strung on power company poles on power company easements. Phone companies only put up pole leads when there is no other utility run present or when it's more cost-effective to roll their own rather than send lease payments to another utility. I don't know what it is these days, but a couple decades ago in many parts of the country, the standard lease was $1 per attachment. At that price it's rarely cheaper to set their own poles.
Direct-buried cable is mostly plowed along public roadways or railroad easements and then across customer land to the point of service. New underground (conduit runs) is generally part of a joint engineered project with other utilities and the local road department. Runs are usually under public roads with entrance ducts under customer property to provide service. A lot of old underground runs have been in place since the early part of the 20th century. In metropolitan areas, some were originally built by Western Union for their telegraph service. Western Union's aerial easements date back to the late 19th century.
Nothing worthwhile ever happens before noon
I worked as a desktop tech for one of the largest telecom companies in the United States. My job was to support all of the remote CO's in their territory.
The redundancy of the Internet and our total telcom infrastructure is a myth. There are three locations in my state alone that would probably take out Southeastern United States. While some of you might think I'm be careless by posting with my real slashdot account I actually wouldn't mind getting a call from Homeland Security.
There are about thirty locations in the US right now that are completely unguarded and for all intents and purpose an easy target. The good news is that it would take about thirty seconds for those in the agency I can't mention to realize a critical junction in our infrastructure has been compromised. Still you could time them all to go of at the same time.
What me worry?
Maybe he should try to get the telcos to give him some info? It's the least they can do with the 300 billion they've stolen from the public. I know it'd be doomed to failure but worth a shot.
Really only the company knows, and even then it's vague. When you get lines located for any reason they will show up, have vague information, and spend a little time wandering around locating the actual line and sticking flags/painting. Not unusual for them to miss something but if they missed it you're not liable to fix it.
The FCC has found that monopoly telcos are fine. The 1996 telco reform act tried to force them to play well with others - and we had thousands of ISPs open up getting everyone connected - but the FCC under Bush Jr and Powel's kid at the helm rolled all of that back. We're back to monopolies. Now try to be a startup and put something in a public right of way.. ha!