Google Releases Jelly Bean Updates For the Nexus S

For the last F*CKING time... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-07-21 02:27 · Score: 4, Insightful

It's NOT fragmentation, idiots.

Do you call the issues with not being able to run apps intended for an iPhone 3/4 on an iPhone "fragmentation"?

Do you call not being able to run Windows 7/8 on a PII machine because of lack of resources "fragmentation"?

If you answered "no" to either or both of those questions, it's NOT friggin "fragmentation".

Re:For the last F*CKING time... by BanHammor · 2012-07-21 02:33 · Score: 5, Insightful

Manufacturers are assholes. Buy from someone who is definitely not.
Re:For the last F*CKING time... by rtaylor · 2012-07-21 02:37 · Score: 5, Insightful

How is offering a software update with backward compatible APIs to an 18 month old phone increasing fragmentation?
The issue is that not enough manufacturers offer the upgrades.

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Rod Taylor
Re:For the last F*CKING time... by Darkness404 · 2012-07-21 02:40 · Score: 2

It really isn't fragmentation and it isn't really Google's fault. But it isn't what you are describing.

What phones get updates are random and have little to do with hardware specs. One phone might be stuck with 1.6 while another phone with the same (or lesser) hardware specs might be upgradeable to Android 2.1. Even worse the exact same phone might have different OSes based on the network or country.

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Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
Re:For the last F*CKING time... by greg1104 · 2012-07-21 02:50 · Score: 5, Insightful

Yes, the fact that iPhone developers have to worry about whether their app is running on an older or a "retina display" iPhone is fragmentation.
Windows developers needing to test applications in Windows XP, Vista, and 7 is fragmentation. Ditto for worrying about 32 vs 64. bit variations.
Thanks for the examples of other fragmentation issues in computing. Wait, were those supposed to disprove this is the right word to use here? That's a pretty terrible fail then. Fragmentation is a word we're using now for when application developers have extensive QA issues around multiple, not quite compatible software platforms on a single hardware platform. It's appropriate here, and for the other examples you give too.
Re:For the last F*CKING time... by ceoyoyo · 2012-07-21 03:40 · Score: 4, Insightful

Read for comprehension. The summary says "exposes the problems of Android fragmentation." That is, Google being able to update their two year old phone with no problems demonstrates what a crappy job many other manufacturers are doing, the variability of update support, and presumably the variability of installed hardware to allow those updates. In shorter form, Google being able to update their two year old phone and many other manufacturers not begin able to update their two month old phones exposes fragmentation in the Android installed base.
Re:For the last F*CKING time... by greg1104 · 2012-07-21 03:57 · Score: 4, Insightful

Most development platforms suffer from some degree of fragmentation. Even Apple's desktop platform, which is happier than most to just leave behind older versions of the software, took a while to shake off cruft leftover from the PowerPC days (which was itself shaking off cruft from the 68K days).
That doesn't mean you can't rate platforms on the degree of fragmention though. And here Android loses, badly, to just about everything else. There are 4 major versions of the Android software still in heavy use, with Jelly Bean adding a fifth one. Each of those major releases has multiple vendor customizations and some disparity in major application design issues like screen sizes and input methods. It's a QA nightmare.
The situation is no better for Windows, but variation in desktop capabilities doesn't seem to hamstring application developers too badly anymore. How long has it been since you found a desktop app that couldn't deal with the screen being resized or with the type of mouse changing? Those things used to be serious fragmentation issues too; nowadays that's faded into something application designers can safely ignore most of the time when developing on Windows. It looks like Windows 8 might alter things badly enough to bring the display issues back into the limelight again, at which point I expect class of "Windows fragmentation" to increase.
The iPhone has kept the variations along these two major axes (screen/inputs) low enough to keep fragmentation from being a drag on the platform. Apple has also done a decent job of keeping the software platform moving forward for older devices. Android has done neither of those things, which is why it deservedly gets beat with the "fragmentation" hammer so often. 80% of the Android market is running 2.2 or 2.3 stil by Google's own figures, so software from 2010. Any iPhone user will tell you the idea of still running the software version from 1.5 years ago would be crazy. Platform statistics easily show how fast iPhone users update; the update times on that platform is weeks for most users, not months or years.
Re:For the last F*CKING time... by Sancho · 2012-07-21 04:24 · Score: 3, Interesting

That doesn't mean you can't rate platforms on the degree of fragmention though.
Absolutely. The problem is that people like John Gruber talk about Android fragmentation like iOS isn't fragmented. It is. As you correctly point out, Android has a fragmentation problem that iOS doesn't have.

How long has it been since you found a desktop app that couldn't deal with the screen being resized or with the type of mouse changing?

I still run into applications which assume a minimum screen size, and which are outright unusable when run on something smaller. And applications which don't work well if the resolution changes (somewhat analogous to rotating a phone.) I think that mostly, though, that's a solved problem. Unfortunately, it's solved by adding on frameworks and other abstractions which tend to use up more CPU and RAM. This has the obvious side effects of running hotter, needing more resources, and using more battery (in the case of laptops.) Time will tell whether or not the mobile analogues will be solved in the same way.

The iPhone has kept the variations along these two major axes (screen/inputs)
What input differences exist between iOS implementations?

Apple has also done a decent job of keeping the software platform moving forward for older devices.
I'd say they do better than decent. Their third phone, released over three years ago, will be getting their latest OS shortly. Some of the Apple features will be missing, but the developer features (the APIs) are all there, which reduces the magnitude of iOS fragmentation significantly.
The problem with Android is in the marketing and the carriers. Marketing, in that "Android Phone" is a meaningless term--you know nothing about the phone from those two words, but a staggering number of people (online, offline, reviewers, marketers) want to equate the term to "iPhone." Carriers, in that they want to act as gatekeepers for updates, and the manufacturers making Android phones don't have enough individual influence to override them quite like Apple does.
Re:For the last F*CKING time... by xs650 · 2012-07-21 04:36 · Score: 4, Informative

Except what's being described in the article IS fragmentation. But keep telling yourself it's normal to get updates randomly, if at all.
Yes there is fragmentation, but it's not an Android problem, it's a douchebag carrier and phone manufacturer business plan.
The reason for the fragmentation is that the phone manufacturers and carriers don't want old phones updated. That would cut into sales of newer shinier phones.
Google is doing the right thing for the consumer by supporting older hardware that has the horsepower to run new versions of Android and the competition from Google will cause some of the phone manufacturers and carriers to offer better upgrade support.
Re:For the last F*CKING time... by Lemmy+Caution · 2012-07-21 05:31 · Score: 2

Yes there is fragmentation, but it's not an Android problem, it's a douchebag carrier and phone manufacturer business plan.
"Android" understood as a whole includes the carriers and manufacturers - when you choose which phone to buy, you're also choosing the ecosystem. It's not a problem of the operating system's technology itself, but no one is seriously claiming it is.
Google needs to be more aggressive in finding ways to own the experience better. It's already heading in the right direction: Nexus started off more as a developer's phone and reference model, and is turning into a kind of cattle-prod to other manufacturers. Google's ownership of Motorola also helps. Perhaps the "openness" of the first few years of Android, and the resultant fragmentation, was a bit of a honeypot, enticing manufacturers to build products for that ecosystem. But it's time (without, of course, withdrawing the source code from the public) to tighten control of the user's total ownership experience. Including updates.
Re:For the last F*CKING time... by GIL_Dude · 2012-07-21 06:39 · Score: 2

I was going to mod you up, but I think I'll comment instead. You are absolutely correct. I know how much we all hate anecdotes and decry how they "aren't data" - but when you add all of them up, they actually do come out to be data. My example: I got a Motorola Droid 1 when they first came out. That was a really nice phone at the time. It was one of the first with Android 2.0 and it got updates to 2.0.1, 2.1, 2.2. Each release made it better. At the time, I would show my wife a new feature that came in with a release (one example was voice recognition for sending texts, etc.) and she would exclaim how my awesome phone was getting better all the time. It was a "Google Experience" phone - which meant that the carrier and manufacturer weren't allowed to screw it all up with bloatware and skins. When it got older, I moved to a Motorola Droid 3. That is a terrible phone. Not enough RAM, a stupid 'Blur' skin that brings bugs with it that don't exist in AOSP, an incredible amount of manufacturer and carrier bloat and crapware. It runs extremely slowly, the camera takes 8 seconds to start and usually crashes taking the first photo. It sucks. It has barely gotten ANY updates. It took over 8 months to get one Blur bug I reported with the dialer fixed. I've only had it since the day it came out - 1 year now - and I want to throw the thing out. I'll tell you - the next one I get will be a Nexus model without any carrier shit or manufacturer shit. No skins, and quick updates.

The carriers haven't figured out that we want these phones to evolve and do more things as the software ecosystem grows. The junk they and the manufacturers put on the phones makes it prohibitive for them put out updates in a timely fashion; they want the phones to be stagnant and always look and run like the day they were purchased. That isn't what a good chunk of us out here want. It will be a Nexus for me - probably when the new ones come out in November. I hate my current phone enough that I will be willing to spend the money to break out of contract early at that point.

Sorry for the rambling anecdote. I am in total agreement that any fragmentation is caused by the vendors lack of ability / agility / desire to get out updates.
Re:For the last F*CKING time... by thsths · 2012-07-21 09:05 · Score: 2

Great anecdote, but you could have just written "Motorola do not know how to do software". Never did, never will, well, unless Google changes things around there.

Screwed over by Anonymous Coward · 2012-07-21 02:42 · Score: 5, Insightful

also exposes the problems of Android fragmentation and the failure of other Android device manufacturers to develop better software than Google, or issue timely updates

What a bunch of crap. The problem is that "other Android device manufactures" don't roll out the same software as Google to their customers. Why? Because of what some GM head honcho started in the 1920: planned obsolence. They want you to buy a new handset instead of updating the old one. Simple as that: consumer being screwed over once the money has left the wallet.

Re:Screwed over by subreality · 2012-07-21 03:26 · Score: 2

But how can that possibly work out? The customers who get screwed are learning: if you want updates, buy a Nexus. The other brands are going to lose out with this policy.
I jumped ship from my iPhone after I got sick of Apple's BS, but honestly this was one of the BEST things they had going: my phone regularly got updates the very day they were released; my only delays were waiting for someone to jailbreak the new version before I could upgrade (which was the BS I got sick of; every damn update was a hassle for me, but for non-jailbreakers life was good). I got a Nexus specifically because I want regular updates and community support, but the entire rest of the Android landscape is pretty grim: updates are a "Maybe we'll get around to it next year" thing for all the non-Nexus phones.
Re:Screwed over by funkylovemonkey · 2012-07-21 09:02 · Score: 2

Exactly. The average phone user doesn't care about updates, they aren't even aware their phone is using an old OS. If you take my highly unscientific example of my family, there are a lot of Android users including my father and mother in law, four of my wife's brothers and sisters, my wife and my own sister. Out of that sample of nine people (including me), I am the only one who could tell you the difference between Gingerbread and Jelly Bean. Honestly most of them aren't aware of the latest features that have come out since they bought their phone and really don't care. Of course I care, and so I have a rooted Nexus with Jelly Bean. The people who care about updates and the latest OS buy Nexus or root. Or do both since Verizon has hampered the update of the latest Nexus.

Wasn't that the whole idea? by CaptainLard · 2012-07-21 02:52 · Score: 4, Insightful

"the failure of other Android device manufacturers to develop better software than Google"

Isn't that the way its supposed to work? Google maintains android and device manufacturers manufacture devices. All the problems seem to happen when this is ignored.

Re:Wasn't that the whole idea? by Darkness404 · 2012-07-21 03:03 · Score: 3, Interesting

Exactly. There hasn't been a single UI that has really been better than stock Android. It makes it an absolute pain to figure any settings out for someone else unless you have the exact same phone.

And the pre-loaded crap? Get rid of it.

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Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.

Re:Verizon is missing from the roll out list by catchblue22 · 2012-07-21 04:42 · Score: 3

Yep. Bought an unsubsidized Nexus S. Never locked. Gets updates. Relatively inexpensive. Why would anyone buy one of these other crappy phones that don't run even Android 4.0. And I can actually see my root filesystem, unlike an iPhone.

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This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)

I think this is good for google and bad for OEMS by pmathew · 2012-07-21 04:48 · Score: 3, Interesting

For me i have had enough with non-nexus android phones as i have lost patience with android updates . My next device is definitely going to be a nexus with clean android . Most of my friends say the same thing . Soon the nexus brand image will be like the i* brand and customers will be reluctant to buy anything else due to lack of complete package which includes long term support and upgrades . The way mobile landscape is changing the OEMS may not see what hit them.

Re:I think this is good for google and bad for OEM by Lemmy+Caution · 2012-07-21 05:35 · Score: 2

I think this is the case, and the best-case scenario for Google: that Nexus branding become something OEMs clamor for, and fall over themselves to get.

This will backfire if Google gets lax about control of the user experience and update cycle in order to keep OEMs happy. Google needs to crack the whip a bit here. Unsubsidized phones, by their very nature, will keep the carriers in line, when they're going to be struggling to keep customers happy month after month, instead of coasting on contracts.

Re:How many manufacturers will offer the upgrades? by afgam28 · 2012-07-21 05:40 · Score: 3, Insightful

Google is in the process of releasing Jelly bean but cyanogenmod haven't even finished their ice cream sandwich release. I'm not sure I'd consider cyanogenmod an equivalent option...

The 'fragmentation problem' solves itself by fredprado · 2012-07-21 05:53 · Score: 4, Insightful

If not delivering updates in a timely fashion is really a great problem for the customers they will mgrate for Goggle phones and the other sellers will take a hit and start to update more frequently to avoid losing their market share.

If it is not a problem for most customers then there is no problem at all.

Fragmentation is a problem ? by tizan · 2012-07-21 06:16 · Score: 2

Is fragmentation a problem or is it freedom for each company to do whatever they want to support at a price they can make money ?

Or do people want the competition to be just like apple ...a controlled garden of 1 device ....1 appstore ...1 updates for 1 thing.

Fragmentation is the difference...it allows you to have amazon fire, the nook tablet, all kind of cheap and crappy tablets or phones to expensive and better supported ones etc etc...
who cares at least i can buy something from $79 to $500 ...i have a choice on my means even if its not what i want because sometimes i can't afford what i want.

If it is apple v/s pseudo apple ...then i would not have a tablet or a smart phone

Re:Fragmentation by cheesybagel · 2012-07-21 06:20 · Score: 2

Don't worry. The Mac users used to say the same to Windows users back when they actually had any decent market share.

Re:Fragmentation by a_mari_usque_ad_mare · 2012-07-21 06:28 · Score: 2

Just buying a Nexus phone is unfortunately not enough.

I bought an unlocked GSM Galaxy Nexus phone online, from a Canadian retailer. Unfortunately the phone I got wasn't running the official google ROM, but Samsung's own ROM that was on a different (much slower) update channel. I had to flash my phone to google's firmware to move from 4.0.2 to 4.0.4. Within a few minutes my phone found the jelly bean update and prompted me to install. The flashing was pretty simple; the only issue was that my phone forgot its SMS centre number and mobile AP settings, so I had to program those back in to be able to send txts and use 3g data.

I say bad on Google for this one. I bought an unlocked nexus phone because I wanted to try out different ROMs on my phone, so for me this was not a big deal. I do think it's dumb that I had to hack my phone to get Google-supported updates.

Also, the other fun thing about Galaxy Nexus firmware variants is that their is basically no way to know which you have until you boot up your phone. Some people who purchased from the same source as me got the official google firmware, it seems totally random. I do like my phone, its really nice and smooth with jelly bean, but the device experience could have been better.

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The map is not the territory.

Re:Verizon is missing from the roll out list by catchblue22 · 2012-07-21 16:21 · Score: 2

Why is it important to see the root file system on your phone? I've never looked at my iPhone and thought, "if only I could see the root file system."

Transferring files is easier and more intuitive to me if I can use folders. Having software such as audiobook players able to view folders on the phone gives me the ability to manage my own book library, instead of Apple's way of hiding the real structures from me, and having me use clunky irritating and unintuitive file transfer via iTunes instead. Having multiple applications on the phone be able to view common files is also useful to me. My iPad makes me pull my hair out sometimes when I transfer say a movie to one player only to find that the file is inaccessible by other players on the same iPad, because each application gets its own limited sandbox to play in, and can't easily read files in the sandboxes of other applications. In other words, I want to be able to use my device my way.

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This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)

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Google Releases Jelly Bean Updates For the Nexus S

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