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The Nation Is Losing Its Toolbox

Hugh Pickens writes "Louis Uchitelle writes that in Aisle 34 of Home Depot is precut vinyl flooring, the glue already in place. In Aisle 26 are prefab windows, and if you don't want to be your own handyman, head to Aisle 23 or Aisle 35, where a help desk will arrange for an installer, as mastering tools and working with one's hands recede as American cultural values. 'At a time when the American factory seems to be a shrinking presence, and when good manufacturing jobs have vanished, perhaps never to return, there is something deeply troubling about this dilution of American craftsmanship,' writes Uchitelle. 'Craftsmanship is, if not a birthright, then a vital ingredient of the American self-image as a can-do, inventive, we-can-make-anything people.' Mass layoffs and plant closings have drawn plenty of headlines and public debate over the years, and they still occasionally do. But the damage to skill and craftsmanship — what's needed to build a complex airliner or a tractor, or for a worker to move up from assembler to machinist to supervisor — has gone largely unnoticed. 'In an earlier generation, we lost our connection to the land, and now we are losing our connection to the machinery we depend on,' says Michael Hout. 'People who work with their hands are doing things today that we call service jobs, in restaurants and laundries, or in medical technology and the like.' The damage to American craftsmanship seems to parallel the precipitous slide in manufacturing employment. And manufacturing's shrinking presence helps explain the decline in craftsmanship, if only because many of the nation's assembly line workers were skilled in craft work. 'Young people grow up without developing the skills to fix things around the house,' says Richard T. Curtin. 'They know about computers, of course, but they don't know how to build them.'"

45 of 525 comments (clear)

  1. Re:Not me! by kcin · · Score: 3, Funny

    I make my own silicon wafers!

  2. Justification of Apathy by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Listen, DIY is great. And I'm a huge fan of building things with your hands but as someone who grew up working on farms, framing houses and bussing tables I have to say that this sort of lament is laughable from my point of view. I'm sitting now in an air conditioned room, working at my own pace and making orders of magnitude more writing software than walking up and down a field picking up rocks so they don't ruin the discer. Oh, go right ahead and laugh, farming machines are funny words to people who haven't had to fix a broken belt or jerry rig up something on the fly: discer, thresher, bailer, huller, etc.

    in Aisle 34 of Home Depot is precut vinyl flooring, the glue already in place. In Aisle 26 are prefab windows, and if you don't want to be your own handyman, head to Aisle 23 or Aisle 35, where a help desk will arrange for an installer, as mastering tools and working with one's hands recede as American cultural values.

    Yes, I've also heard software developers complain that today you can use ExtJS 4 to instantly have a windowing option in your browser and now it's sad because all the UI guys are using something like this. These "prefab architectures" are so terrible because nobody actually writes JavaScript anymore. Well, I know how to put together a window sill, a window frame and put the pane in and everything (even know how to build the headers for load bearing regulations on houses). And I'll tell you right now my implementation of a JavaScript windowing system wouldn't be as slick or universal as ExtJS 4 just like my window would be pretty shitty compared to something prefabbed up. Both would cost my employers more time and money. I would wager that if you were someone that built houses for a living, you would be okay with someone else putting together factory made windows with a low defect rate. Unsurprisingly it saves you a bunch of money just like a lot of software libraries save me time and money.

    Yeah, I can make a table. But I need a jointer and a planer and whole bunch of other tools. The barrier to entry is high. Or I can go down to Ikea and find some veneered particle board for comparative pennies. Welcome to capitalism.

    'In an earlier generation, we lost our connection to the land, and now we are losing our connection to the machinery we depend on,'

    Oh, right, your ancestors were the farmers. It was okay for you to move on to something more interesting like building houses and cities instead of devoting every waking moment to growing growing growing. Now we've moved on and it's time to mourn the loss of ... what exactly? Am I supposed to feel ashamed that all four of my grandparents were farmers and none of their 14 children are? Or that my dad was a carpenter and cement pourer and I'm a software developer? It's funny, none of my relatives guilt trip me like this New York Times writer that probably hasn't spent a day of his life working in a factory.

    From the NYTimes author's bio:

    Mr. Uchitelle was a visiting scholar at the Russell Sage Foundation in New York in 2002-03 and taught journalism for many years at Columbia University’s School of General Studies. Before joining The Times, he worked for The Associated Press as a reporter, an editor and a foreign correspondent in Latin America. He and his wife, Joan Uchitelle, live in Scarsdale, N.Y. They have two grown daughters.

    Hey, anybody know of a good factory job near Scarsdale for Mr. Uchitelle? Maybe one of those industrial revolution jobs with industrial revolution pay? Then I think I'll listen to him bitch and moan about how progress is losing our nation's toolbox. Afterwards, take him around to farms at night (you know, the ones where people are working after sundown and before sunup) and let everyone tell him their stories about how they were injured on the job. Every hard working farmer or carpenter has those stories. I still got all my digi

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Justification of Apathy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What are you talking about? Division of labor is the very definition of civilization.

      In pre-civilized societies, everyone did everything themselves, and so everyone was a hunter/gatherer who did absolutely nothing but struggle to survive from day to day. If you weren't catching your food, you were making the tools needed to catch your food or making the clothing to survive the elements. What a dreary, depressing, cultureless, pleasureless existence.

      With division of labor--i.e., civilization--we no longer have to struggle to survive. We can create culture specifically because we don't have to do everything ourselves. The less we have to do ourselves, the more civilized we are, and the richer and more meaningful our lives become.

      The fact that wecan lounge around in an air-conditioned room watching TV and drinking beer makes us superior.

    2. Re:Justification of Apathy by neyla · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yeah, in principle sure. But here's the thing: increased specialization and mass-production means that it's not just you who can't build a good-quality window with your own two hands and basic tools. Indeed *nobody* can. The only way to build a modern window at a reasonable cost, is to make a *shitload* of them at the same time.

      The objection that they can then charge anything is valid - if there's insufficient competition in the market. This is a good reason to be real vigilant about anti-trust.

      Yeah, I know less about farming than my grandfather did. But I know a lot more about photography, about computer-programming, about electronics, about user-interfaces, about a whole lot of things that are relevant in my world, but wasn't in his.

      People learn what they need to live in the world they live in. News at 11.

    3. Re:Justification of Apathy by JBMcB · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you want something out of the ordinary you'll have to make it yourself or pay through the nose for someone else to.

      Unless you don't value your time at all - doing it yourself is the same thing as paying through the nose. You can buy all the tools you need and take the time required to learn joinery and mill-work (not an easy thing to do.) At the end, you'll know how to make windows. A not completely un-useful skill, but unless you seriously want to build those kinds of things as a hobby or a profession, it's kind of a waste, isn't it?

      --
      My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
    4. Re:Justification of Apathy by JBMcB · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And yet, here you are commenting on a Slashdot article, when you could be out building your own house and furniture, designing your own car and growing your own food. Weird - it's almost like you're letting other people do those things so you have more time to do things you like to do, like comment on Slashdot articles. What a crazy system, it's almost like it's *supposed* to work that way.

      --
      My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
    5. Re:Justification of Apathy by garyebickford · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's funny, none of my relatives guilt trip me like this New York Times writer that probably hasn't spent a day of his life working in a factory.

      From the NYTimes author's bio:

      Mr. Uchitelle was a visiting scholar at the Russell Sage Foundation in New York in 2002-03 and taught journalism for many years at Columbia University’s School of General Studies. Before joining The Times, he worked for The Associated Press as a reporter, an editor and a foreign correspondent in Latin America.

      Indeed. One of my big complaints is that journalism, having become a 'profession' that you now go to college for, is now populated by people who know nothing but what their professors taught them - 1/2 propaganda and 1/2 how to hold a microphone. Back in the day reporters, editors and the like either started out in a different job or worked their way up from copy boy or runner. Either way, having spent time in the real world, they understood a few things and had a perspective on real life. Unfortunately going to journalism school doesn't teach you anything about how the world works, or the details of any part of it. As a result, nowadays listening to the news and most commentary is like listening to grade school reports from complete newbies who know nothing about the history, background or dynamics of whatever they are reporting on. And many of them show the arrogance of one who thinks they know something when they are actually ignorant (at least of the topic at hand). It's like an unending procession of valley girls (and boys) remarking 'OMG look at those big buildings where people work - umm - what's work?'

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    6. Re:Justification of Apathy by garyebickford · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Forbes just had a good article (sorry, too lazy to find the link) about how much better things are now than they were not long ago. Thanks to smart phones, the lowliest tribesman in Kenya now is better connected to the world than Ronald Reagan (or anyone at that time) was. Homicides are down by a factor of 100 from 500 years ago. The mean (adjusted) per capita income of the poorest people in the world today has tripled in the last 50 years despite the population doubling. The percentage of women dying in childbirth is down by a factor of 100 over the last 100 years, and childhood mortality has improved similarly. And so on. (These numbers are my recollection from the article so could be off, but you get the picture.)

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    7. Re:Justification of Apathy by Sique · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It all comes down to pure profit.

      No, it is not only the profit. I might have become a carpenter, able to built my own windows (there is a carpenter in the backyard of my house, and another down the road), but I chosed not to. I might have become a mason, building my own houses. I even had courses doing exactly that during my school time, even though only four hours every two weeks. I chosed not to. I know a little knitting and tailoring, because the nursery teacher had us children craft something for Christmas each year, but I chosed not to become a fashion designer.
      There is a rule of thumb that to master a subject, you have to do it for about 10,000 hrs. In a normal working year, there are about 2080 hrs without holidays or vacation (52x40). So you have to work five years to master something. Five years of farming, five years of carpentry, five years of masonry, five years of tailoring, five years of cooking, five years of forging, five years of mining, five years of plumbing, five years of each profession necessary to provide for today's needs. My life is too short for that. Literally too short. I expect to live about 75 years, this means that I at a maximum can become proficient at 15 different trades. And then I die.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    8. Re:Justification of Apathy by MikeBabcock · · Score: 3, Insightful

      OMG, I also don't know how to do neurosurgery or build my own CPU.

      Guess what, expertise and relying on experts in fields is a perfectly good example of knowledge progress.

      If everyone can know how to do everything, your society's knowledge and skill base is very small.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    9. Re:Justification of Apathy by HungWeiLo · · Score: 3, Funny

      Thanks to smart phones, the lowliest tribesman in Kenya now is better connected to the world than Ronald Reagan

      Fer crying out loud, for the last time - he was not born in Kenya!

      --
      There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
  3. Cheap import junk by Peter+Simpson · · Score: 3, Informative

    It's getting hard to find anything but pre-pack import junk at Lowes and Home Depot. "Brass" fittings are cheaply plated steel that rusts when you look at it sideways, Kobalt tools are half plastic -- it's like a branch of Wal-Mart. If my local hardware guy doesn't have it, I mail order. The only things I go to Lowes for are immediate needs.

    1. Re:Cheap import junk by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Odd, over here (the Netherlands) the opposite has happened, and DIY chains now sell more up-market fittings as well as the cheap stuff. With tools, it's the other way around: we now have a lot of cheap tools from China, of varying quality. And that's fine as well: power tools that used to be prohibitively expensive for the occasional user are now affordable. That Chinese drill motor with pneumatic hammer isn't going to be as nice and long-lasting as the one from DeWalt, but it's good enough for drilling a few holes to hang paintings or chisel old tiles off the bathroom wall, and it's only a hundred euros instead of 600 for a pro tool.

      As for declining skills, I'd have to agree with the article's author. I think part of the problem is that being a craftsman isn't cool anymore... ok, perhaps it never really was cool, but at least good craftsmen got some respect, and it was a viable career choice for many. Nowadays, you can still make a decent living doing that sort of work, but if you enroll in trade school, people will think there's something wrong with you. The general sentiment seems to be that winners do knowledge work or at least get to boss other people around; if you actually work with your hands, you're a loser. And even trade school is changing to reflect the idea that everyone needs to be in "services", dropping classes that teach actual skill in favour of management crap or theoretical stuff, the idea being that everyone needs to be a knowledge worker to some degree.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    2. Re:Cheap import junk by arth1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's getting hard to find anything but pre-pack import junk at Lowes and Home Depot.

      Indeed. I have several times walked out empty-handed when attempting to buy something that was common a few decades ago, but is now no longer available. The scary thing is when the staff don't even understand what I'm talking about.
      Lowe's, Home Depot, True Value and similar stores are turning into Chinese prefab outlets where the focus is on assemble and replace, not on make or repair.

      Examples of missing stuff: Brass wire and surveyor's chain. Not to mention chemicals, where you no longer can get the "pure" stuff, just various mixes "for" specific purposes. No lye, TSP or sugar soap without perfumes, "cleaning agents" and additives, and most astonishing, no cotton roving.

  4. I blame the legal system, and cheap Asian labor by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's hard for a craftsman to know if he's violating a patent, environmental law, or something that will make a TSA knuckle-dragger feel is a weapon of mass destruction.

    Car manufacturers seem intent on specifically requiring special tools for their cars, and use patents to protect them.

    The DMCA, copyright, and patent laws make it neigh illegal to tinker with electronic devices you've bought, because some a$$hole in Holywood bought some corrupt legislators. I mean, discussed how to make America more competitive in a global IP marketplace.

    Finally, cheap manufacturing from Asia has lead to a situation where it's cheaper to replace consumer products than to repair them. So how are many people going to learn repair skills on them? It's certainly not a valid career path in the U.S.

    1. Re:I blame the legal system, and cheap Asian labor by garyebickford · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Forbes just had an interesting article about how many major manufacturers (Caterpillar, IBM, etc.) are beginning to come back to the US and building plants based on advanced robotics, nanotechnology and 3D printing. These plants can build stuff cheaper than those relatively labor-intensive plants in China, making it no longer worth the cost to ship materials back and forth across the Pacific. I think part of this next phase will be the inclusion of recyclability into the manufacturing process - if a part can be recycled using automation back into materials that can be re-used in production, the true costs go down. According to the article, even FoxConn is getting into the action - they are planning to buy a million robots and install them in plants in Taiwan, replacing plants presently in China.

      Of course, this doesn't mean a bunch of low-skill jobs are coming back in the US or anywhere else. It does mean a huge threat to low-wage low-skill countries worldwide. The solution is probably going to mean permanent unemployment support in the US and other developed countries for a major part of the working-age population, and a huge demographic crisis for overpopulated countries full of low-skilled workers. Whatever happens, it's going to be interesting.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
  5. Fundamental breakdown in the concept of causality by Gothmolly · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Just as people now believe that you can run perpetual Federal deficits, or that all children are above average, or that form is more important than function, or that you can borrow more money to buy a house than you can pay back, there's a growing disdain for people who point out that the emperor has no clothes. Tell people you work on your own car instead of dropping it off at the dealer? Subtle sneer. Drive a used car instead of a new one? Sneer. Study hard and get good grades? You're just a dork, and you're not cool. It's the same anti-science mentality that's been around for years, now broadening to the more practical skills.

    It's also the Walmart mentality - why buy something for $100 that lasts forever when you can buy one a Walmart for $9.99 and replace it every six months?
    Just as people no longer distinguish between news and entertainment, they can no longer distinguish crap from quality. Our cultural egalitarianism now covers everything - and since values are subjective, who are you to say that 1 person's skills are better than another? They're just different, right?

    As a homeowner, the only decent work I've had done at my house has been by older, family-run businesses. Newer, younger contractors inevitably do a horrible job and require constant handholding.

    Personally, I'm glad that I'll be dead in 40 years - the way things are going I think soon after that we'll be back living in caves.

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
  6. change of perspective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is yet another in a long line of alarmist articles about the 'loss of' X or Y in our modern technological culture. What is being missed is that this state of affairs is exactly was Capitalism was meant to bring about, a day when we all have much more leisure time because automation and division of labour has made long hours of back-breaking subsistence working obsolete. What we should be asking is not 'how do we go back to hard work with our hands?' but how do we transition to a new model (a post recession model) which acknowledges that there is no viable reason for people to need to be working 40+ hours a week. We can then realise that we can work with our hands, enjoy DIY and reconnect with the land in a way that is about personal growth, community and coexistence, instead of commerce, because commerce takes less and less work to keep running. It's not a hippy dream, or a Socialist agenda, it's actually the victory of the Capitalist model being unable to see it's own success clear enough to embrace it yet.

    1. Re:change of perspective by trout007 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think the base problem is envy. If you gave a top 10%er of 1700 the chance to live like a bottom 10% today I think they would take you up on it. You can live better now on the hand me downs of our economy than you could working your ass off back then. The problem is that people are envious of the over achievers. It's not fair they get their huge houses and expensive cars and vacations. Now I agree there are many that get rich through fraud in the financial industry.

      There is always a trade off between leisure and labor. I think 40 hours might be near where most people make that trade. They want enough money to be able to do something with their leisure. They see expensive things and are willing to labor to afford it. I'm fine with that. I can't see spending money on a far off vacation that is over in a week. I'd rather spend that money on something for my house that I can enjoy forever. But I don't begrudge people that want the vacation but I don't appreciate when they are envious of my possessions. They don't see the vacations I didn't take or the yard work I do every week or the meals my wife cooks at home when we didn't go out to eat.

      --
      I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
    2. Re:change of perspective by miletus · · Score: 3, Informative

      this state of affairs is exactly was Capitalism was meant to bring about, a day when we all have much more leisure time because automation and division of labour has made long hours of back-breaking subsistence working obsolete.

      This seems wrong at many levels. "Capitalism was meant" suggests capitalism was designed or created with a purpose, rather than being the evolution of one mode of exploitation (serfdom) into another (slavery). Furthermore, historians of the late medieval period show that peasants where self-sufficient in food and had more leisure time than early factory workers, who were forced off the land (e.g. Enclosure Acts) and hence food self-sufficiency to work 12-14 hour days. It was the labor movement that fought for shorter work days; and even if we nominally have an 8 hour day today, modern capitalists always find a way to squeeze more out of you (e.g. work from home).

      a new model (a post recession model) which acknowledges that there is no viable reason for people to need to be working 40+ hours a week

      Yes, that would be socialism, not the dreary factory-centric model in which the corporation is replaced by the state, but where free associations of people produce to fulfill needs and wants without the rusted-out fetters of money to dictate everything.

      it's actually the victory of the Capitalist model being unable to see it's own success clear enough to embrace it yet.

      I'd suggest you look at some of the early advocates of capitalism, particularly in the Scottish enlightenment, who were quite explicit that forcing peasants into starvation was the most efficient way to boost labor discipline. Here's a link to get you started

  7. Things change. by gallondr00nk · · Score: 3, Funny

    Sorry, but they do.

    Inevitable really. With a large service sector comes services. Services like having a kitchen installed or a carpet laid. I don't see it as a bad thing, if anything it shows a marginal increase in living standards.

    As an aside, all these rose tinted submissions are getting silly. Before long it'll be "Slashdot. News for reactionaries, stuff used to be better."

  8. Cooking, too by michaelmalak · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Same with cooking. With so many pre-packaged frozen meals, fresh pre-prepared ready-to-cook meals at the grocery store, vacuum-packed foods, ubiquitous drive-thrus, and universal Take Out Taxi restaurant delivery, cooking is either a lost art or relegated to holidays and "I'm going to cook today" days. The gourmet kitchen has become the SUV room of the house -- a $50k expense useful for that one excursion spent off-roading or the one blizzard of 24".

    Division of labor is a double-edged sword. More cynically, one might say it is seductive, tempting the populace into comfort in exchange for reduction of self-sufficiency, independence, resilience, and sustainability.

    1. Re:Cooking, too by dywolf · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Mod up. And cue the Heinlen quote: "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
  9. revealing conversation with my stepfather by jfruh · · Score: 3, Informative

    I had a conversation with my step-father a few months ago (he's 71) when he was talking about how when he was a teenager and young adult he used to tinker with his cars all the time, trying to squeeze a bit more performance out of it. Now, of course, he never opens his car's hood. "Do you miss it?" I asked him. "Of course not," he said. "Those cars were garbage. They lasted half as long as the new models, and the reason we were always tinkering with them is that stuff went wrong with them so often that you couldn't afford to take it to the mechanic for every little thing."

    1. Re:revealing conversation with my stepfather by invid · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Moving from cars to computers, I do miss tinkering with autoexec.bat and config.sys. In those days you knew exactly what was happening in the computer.

      Lawn! Kid! Off!

      --
      The Moore-Murphy Law: The number of things that will go wrong will double every 2 years.
  10. Ya Caught Me by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Funny

    no one who has worked on a farm says 'discer'. It's a disc.

    It's true. I've been living a lie. Sure, I talk the talk and I might sound like I've worked on farms but it's all a sham. "Why do I do it?" Well, there's something about being able to tell all the Carnegie Mellon, Princeton and MIT graduates I work with that I spent my childhood picking up rocks and throwing bails. I keep a bucket of pig shit behind my house and sometimes I just smear that all over me before I hit the town. But it's all a lie. I'll step into the local bar and the women will take one whiff of that sweet fecal matter and come running to me. "What were you doing today, eldavojohn?" they ask as they swoon around me. "Castratin' pigs," I'll lie. And they will just fall all over each other to touch me. I know, it's all very glamorous but it requires a lot of research to go into detail about making two incisions to get the testicles out on the small male pigs and then wiping them down with antibiotic. Or injecting the blue crap into the female piglets' ovaries. Women just absolutely adore a man who knows his way around ending the reproductive cycle of pigs. Bring up that topic at a fine family dinner and even East Coast grandma is on the edge of her seat.

    And the money. My god, the money I've made claiming to have worked on farms. I get $25,000 a night just to make an appearance at places and rub elbows with businessmen, musicians and diplomats. They would trot me out like a one trick pony and all ask me questions -- hanging on my every word. That too, has been all a lie. "Con man" would be a kind label for me now.

    But you caught me. I never worked on farms growing up. I only brag about walking up and down scorching black earth, picking up any baseball sized or larger rock and returning it to the flatbed behind the tractor. But I've never done it. Never done it for hundreds of hours every summer between the hours of 5am and 11am daily. Never received $8/hour under the table nor the right to use some of their equipment at my folks' place. The details are there but the colloquialism of "discer" versus "disc" ruined me. I suppose this slip has been a blessing in disguise.

    I'm glad you caught me before I cut off one of my own fingers so I could tell people I lost it trying to free up the gears of a frozen motor. All the Slashdot karma that would have gotten me and all the pussy that would have been so easily accessible with only nine fingers would have been great -- but it all would have been a lie.

    Thank you, Anonymous Coward. Thank you for helping me help myself and own up to this horrible vile lie that has given me an undue elevated societal status.

    --
    My work here is dung.
  11. Same happened in all ages, with everything by captainpanic · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When technology moves on, the end users learn to use the new tools and new materials, and only experts use the expert's tools to make the tools and materials for the every day man. But the experts do that much more efficiently and at a lower price than the normal people could do before.

    There was a time when you could fix your own car, but that car would be so simple that it could only do 100 km/h, had no satnav, no ABS, no fuel injection, no mp3 player, no central locking system, no electrical windows, no indicators when something was wrong. And I spend my time to do something else (like spamming on /.), instead of tinkering on my car.

    Nostaligia is a rubbish argument against technological progress.

  12. Re:Pointless "Kids These Days" Article by fluffythedestroyer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I was about to say "tell me something i don't know". The middle class that owns a house, work 40 hours in a week are almost forced to be a diy guy (or girl ? ) since they are not rich people. I don't know for all of you but I like building things, repairing and renovation things by myself. It makes me feel useful and it will serve as a good example for my son.

  13. Article is undiluted horseflop by Hillgiant · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I own a house that was originally constructed in 1942. I purchased it from the estate of the original owner in 2004. Every single thing I have tried to do in the house has been thwarted by the previous owner's amateur attempts at home improvement. Electrical (four electrical boxes, knob & tube wiring under the attic insulation), carpentry (crooked doors, cheep 70's aluminum frame windows, bathroom floor supported by rusty screws and good intentions), plumbing (copper tubing to the attic furnace, automotive radiator hose for the u-bend on the tub drain). Every single thing has taken twice as long and cost almost twice as much as needed due to poor craftsmanship, kludges, and stubborn refusal to follow code or even basic principles of home construction.

    Seriously. I wish he had just hired a professional.

    --
    -
  14. Re:Not me! by garyebickford · · Score: 5, Interesting

    My mom taught primary school back in the day. She noticed that the kids (ages 5-8, depending on which grade she was teaching each year) who came from the apartment blocks down the street had no finger dexterity at all - their hands were like clubs because they had never had any practice _doing_ anything, never got to go outside and play, make things, but just watched TV. This was back in the mid-1960s. Many of them were 'latchkey kids' whose parents both worked, so these kids went to school, came home and sat alone in the apartment until Mom and/or Dad came home. It's been a problem for a long time.

    Another part of the problem is the relative cost of parts vs. assembled units. I recall wanting to fix a toaster (about 1970) that had stopped working - the nichrome wire inside had burned out. The cost of the wire was only slightly less than the cost of a new toaster. I think it's even worse today as increasingly automated manufacturing makes assembled units so cheap. I've noticed that in general it's cheaper to buy a new bookcase than to buy the wood to build your own of the same quality, _if_ you're that good - it's hard to match the precision with which even Ikea furniture is made.

    --
    It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
  15. Re:Not me! by ByOhTek · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's not that they are clueless. I've seen some young kids (16-18 or so) able to rebuild computers, car engines, do almost any arbitrary house work, etc.

    I'm 30, I'll rebuild computers, and wire a house. Aside from that, my manual skills are, admittedly, limited. The rest doesn't interest me, and I know people I can call for help to get the job done better than a handy man, and with less time than it would take me to do it myself - I'll learn a bit along the way as well, to help with doing the smaller repairs. And my friends get excellent cooking and/or money. Everyone wins. Some of them instead of taking food or money, get assistance from me in computer related stuff, tutoring their kids or themselves in a mathematical, computer or scientific subject, etc.

    If you don't have the interest, and don't need to do it, there really isn't a good reason to worry about it beyond a modest familiarity. Could you live your lifestyle, having built everything you own, from the ground up? Probably not, you don't have the time. The point is to be good at at least a few things, and then know who to talk to, to get the rest done effectively, and if possible, know enough of the basics to shave off some diagnostic time.

    --
    Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
  16. Re:Not me! by evil_aaronm · · Score: 4, Informative

    Must've been a different kind of "latch-key," in that neighborhood. My dad worked days; me mum, nights; we were pretty much left to our own devices all day. And there was just about nothing we didn't do. Played all kinds of games in the woods on the hill, drinking water straight from the little stream rather than trudge back to the house. Playing with Matchbox cars in the gravel. Racing bikes in the dirt parking lot down the block. Playing hide-and-seek at night. But the big thing was baseball. If we had a quorum, we played. We'd ride from neighborhood to neighborhood, gloves on our handlebars, looking for people to play.

    Yeah, we watched our share of TV, too - reruns of Gilligan's Island, I Dream of Jeannie, Munsters, Get Smart, etc. - but, if the weather was good enough, we were outside, for the most part.

  17. Re:Not me! by kidgenius · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I was a latch-key kid, and sure, I watched some TV. But we also ran around, rode bikes, played with legos, etc. And I'm not some old guy, I'm a child of the 80's.

  18. Re:Read... by azalin · · Score: 3, Funny

    Now get of my lawn before I finished loading my flintlock rifle. You got about about ten minutes, because I will have to cast another bullet and mix the gunpowder first.

  19. Re:prefab windows are a good thing by Sique · · Score: 4, Informative

    Also three pane windows are mainly filled with argon today. The low heat conductivity, even lower than nitrogenium or normal air, has its advantages. Also argon filled double pane windows are lighter, cheaper and provide about the same thermal isolation than three pane air filled windows.

    --
    .sig: Sique *sigh*
  20. Re:Pointless "Kids These Days" Article by hackula · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If 29 is older than the age group TFA is complaining about, then which group are they referring to? "God damn 12 year olds these days! They don't even know how to manufacture their own code-compliant hurricane-resistant fucking windows these days!! Gafaww!!!"
    I am in my mid-20s and know my way around carpentry, however, when I was in my teens this was not the case. The whole "experience" thing comes to mind.

  21. Re:Not me! by vlm · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I've noticed that in general it's cheaper to buy a new bookcase than to buy the wood to build your own of the same quality

    Having done some carpentry and built some bookcases both walmart and "real" you cannot even buy veneer particle board of a quality level as low as walmart flat packs. Literally unavailable to retail consumers. So I cry bogus on that claim.

    The real problem is people who can't appreciate quality. I can and have built bookcases out of solid oak and hand rubbed finish, which end up costing quite a bit and look beautiful. However the average joe just wants the $19 saggy walmart bookcase. Sort of like McDonalds "food" vs real restaurant.

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  22. Re:Not me! by Deep+Esophagus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm 30, I'll rebuild computers, and wire a house.

    Wire a house? Right this way, citizen. You have the right to remain silent...

    A few years back the county commissioners in our area voted to apply city building codes to construction anywhere in the county. Not only do you need permits out the wazoo if you so much as want to bang two rocks together, but the odds that you'll actually pass the inspection the first time around if you're not on the commission or screwing somebody who is on the commission are somewhere between jack and squat.

    We had a basement foundation put in for a modular house and jumped through all their hoops; when the inspector came out we failed the inspection because the front porch light was loose and there was no handrail on the concrete stairs leading to the basement OUTSIDE the house. Because of that -- and that alone -- we were not permitted to occupy our own house on our own property. Apparently he felt it was safer for my handicapped wife, my dog, and me to live for six weeks in a leaky motor home in our driveway with no running water in below-zero winter than to sleep in beds in our heated house because of that porch light and handrail.

    Do I sound just ever so slightly bitter? Six months later we're going through the same Kafka nightmare trying to be allowed permission to use the interior stairs we had installed. Our builder submitted plans to the commission, those plans were approved, and still the jackass tyrants wanted us to rip out the stairs and install them in a different place because the treads were 1/2" narrower than his arbitrary building code prescribes. No, I'm not saying arbitrary because I'm angry; I'm saying arbitrary because they didn't have a problem with stair tread width five years ago before adopting those building codes, and the width they decided on isn't a standard for anyone, anywhere -- building codes other places recommend different widths, so there's nothing magically safe about the width he wants.

    This time around, we do have a friend-of-a-friend of one of the commissioners so we were at least able to get the stairs themselves approved. But we still can't get final acceptance of the construction until we rip out the lighting we put on the stairs ("you might bump your head on the bulb if you grow to 7 feet tall"), put up safety mesh over a window at the foot of the stairs ("if you're drunk and you trip going downstairs, you might break the glass and cut yourself"), and replace a steel beam we had to remove in the first place because it really was too low to go under without smacking into it.

    So why bother learning how to use tools? I'll never be allowed to use them anyway; it's for my own good that I leave all construction to licensed professionals.

  23. Re:Not me! by ArhcAngel · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The real problem is people who can't appreciate quality.

    I'm with you here. People in general do not appreciate quality. But this has almost always been the case.

    I can and have built bookcases out of solid oak and hand rubbed finish, which end up costing quite a bit and look beautiful. However the average joe just wants the $19 saggy walmart bookcase. Sort of like McDonalds "food" vs real restaurant.

    If by average joe you mean people who live on a budget and can't always afford quality.
    I don't know many people who would choose Wal Mart particle board over solid wood if the costs were the same. Most people need their furniture to perform a function. If it performs the function and looks nice that's a bonus. If it is also durable that's incredible.

    It's not unreasonable to expect a premium for premium goods. What is unreasonable is to expect everyone to pay those premiums if they don't have to.

    --
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
  24. Re:Not me! by hawguy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    We had a basement foundation put in for a modular house and jumped through all their hoops; when the inspector came out we failed the inspection because the front porch light was loose and there was no handrail on the concrete stairs leading to the basement OUTSIDE the house. Because of that -- and that alone -- we were not permitted to occupy our own house on our own property. Apparently he felt it was safer for my handicapped wife, my dog, and me to live for six weeks in a leaky motor home in our driveway with no running water in below-zero winter than to sleep in beds in our heated house because of that porch light and handrail.

    Is there any building department in the country that will approve stairs with no railing? Your wife is disabled, so you should understand the need for hand railings on stairs. Even if they are OUTSIDE the house, since presumably they may be used for emergency egress. If the porch light was installed as part of the permitted work, then I can understand why they rejected it -- a loose light can be a shock hazard. If it wasn't part of the permitted work, then the inspector was being petty and should have just pointed it out without writing it up. But if it was done under the permit and he gave his signoff and your wife electrocuted herself while changing the light bulb, it's his head on the line.

    I don't see why it took you 6 more weeks of sleeping outside to get the handrail installed and porch light fixed? A handrail is a couple hours of work, even in concrete. Couldn't you just fix them and schedule a followup inspection?

    As annoying as they are, building department regulations are supposed to insure a minimal standard of construction - any licensed contractor should be able to build to code without a problem. If you're doing the work yourself, stop by your building office and speak to an inspector -- don't assume that if you just submit plans that the inspector is going to call out every little non-compliant item.

  25. Re:Not me! by Americano · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The real problem is people who can't appreciate quality.

    No, the real problem is that that solid oak furniture with hand-rubbed finish takes:
    1) A long time to build;
    2) A minimum level of expertise to build a passably "quality" unit - adding to the time required to build it;
    3) A minimum set of relatively expensive tools and workspace to build that passable "quality";
    4) A relatively expensive set of materials with which to construct this unit;

    If you took any random person, and offered them a choice (totally free, no strings, no fees - whatever they prefer is given to them at no cost to them) between:
    1) A hand-crafted, solid-maple bookshelf, that sells for $700-1200 dollars (http://www.pompy.com/configurations/?category=45&product=6319);
    and
    2) A mass-produced MDF-and-veneer monstrosity that sells for $20 dollars (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Mylex-4-Shelf-Bookcase-Black/20836837);

    Most people are going to choose the $700 hand-crafted-by-master-crafters bookshelf. So why do people choose the cheap furniture? Because... it's cheap. $700 for a bookshelf is a LOT of money. $20 not so much. So yeah, people will buy the cheap one, because they don't have the extra $680 to spend.

    As for building their own, they'd need a whole lot more than $700 to build their own bookshelf. Time, materials, tools, and expertise all cost you something to acquire or develop. Spending hundreds - maybe into the thousand+ range - on tools and materials for a project that you probably will only use once or twice more in your life is a pretty expensive hobby.

    Nothing to do with people "preferring" shoddy workmanship and shitty furniture. Everything to do with people making an economic decision.

  26. Re:Not me! by mcgrew · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've been building computers since I was your age, I'm 60. But the problem is how stuff is made these days. Take cars, for example. When I was young, I'd work on my own. Now? I'd have a hard time changing the spark plugs. When my battery died, I had no clue where the damned thing was. Turns out it's inside the front passenger wheel well, it took a trained mechanic 45 minutes to change, you have to remove the wheel, fender, and wheel well to change the battery. THAT'S what the problem is.

    Ever try to take a laptop apart? Pain in the ass, I won't work on laptops any more. Same thing.

  27. Re:Not me! by Deep+Esophagus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I don't see why it took you 6 more weeks of sleeping outside to get the handrail installed and porch light fixed? A handrail is a couple hours of work, even in concrete. Couldn't you just fix them and schedule a followup inspection?

    Now that I think about it, it was more like 3 weeks but to answer your question it was because the contractors who did the initial work had squeezed us in between larger jobs and moved on to their next job in another state as soon as they got their truck unloaded, and everybody else within a hundred miles (it's a rural area in Wyoming) was booked months in advance. Once the original contractor was able to send somebody back to do the handrail, we had to wait for the inspector to come back out for the followup inspection.

    Your wife is disabled, so you should understand the need for hand railings on stairs. Even if they are OUTSIDE the house, since presumably they may be used for emergency egress. If the porch light was installed as part of the permitted work, then I can understand why they rejected it -- a loose light can be a shock hazard. If it wasn't part of the permitted work, then the inspector was being petty and should have just pointed it out without writing it up. But if it was done under the permit and he gave his signoff and your wife electrocuted herself while changing the light bulb, it's his head on the line.

    She will also never, ever be able to use those stairs under any circumstances. But that's beside the point. I'm saying it's intrusive and counterproductive to deny occupancy of our bedroom because of an outside handrail. Yes, all the things you cite are potential hazards and it's quite conceivable that some poorly placed item or loose fixture could someday hurt me. Our choice of placement of chairs and the exercise bicycle in the living room are tripping hazards (ask me how I know). The stupid cat who parks herself right in front of my office door in the unlit hallway at night before I go back to the bedroom is a safety hazard who is, at this point, lucky to be alive and that only because she made it out of reach before I could find an axe.

    But all of that is my problem. If I get hurt, or somebody decides to sue me because they got hurt, on my own property due to decisions I made; if a future buyer refuses to make an offer until I change the layout of the stairs, I bear the consequences of my actions. I don't need every minuscule aspect of my life safety inspected, protective helmeted, or compliance regulated. I shouldn't have to stop by my building office and speak to inspector to manage my property to my specifications. If they want to offer advice as to what they think is the best way to approach things, I think that's great and I'll seek out such advice and take it into considerations; making me legally bound to adhere to every jot and tittle of that advice goes beyond helping me make my home safe and becomes an unreasonable intrusion into my private life.

  28. Re:Not me! by GospelHead821 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Thank you for making this point. For me, space is the utmost consideration. My wife and I live in a one-bedroom apartment with not even so much as a dedicated garage space to our name. If I want to do even a little bit of woodworking, like building a bird house, I'm laying down sheet plastic, cutting hardboard with a dremel, and possibly vacuuming sawdust out of the carpet. (Not to mention, all of this probably violates my lease.) Forget about working with pieces of wood large enough to build a small bookcase.

    If I had space, the question would then be whether or not I wanted to invest in tools. A power drill? Sure. A table saw? Maybe not.

    I'm crafty enough that if I have access to space and tools, I'm a reasonably handy guy. Maybe not "build my own beautiful bookcase" handy but certainly "build my own functional bookcase" handy. Now, fortunately, I have a buddy who has a garage and plenty of woodworking tools. If/when I move closer to him, borrowing becomes an option.

    Ultimately, while I sympathize with the tenor of this article, it seems to me that there are a lot of hidden costs to craftsmanship. Should everybody have a workshop in the garage or at least enough that everybody's one degree of separation from a workshop? And what other expertise would we have to give up to maintain that level of craftsmanship? The article discusses some of its advantages but it also seems to downplay other areas of expertise. What exactly is wrong with a shift toward skilled services like cooking, laundry, tailoring, etc.? Isn't a diversity of specialists supposed to be good for an industrial/post-industrial economy?

    --
    Virtue finds and chooses the mean.
    Aristotle, Ethica Nichomachea
  29. Re:Not me! by Sentrion · · Score: 4, Informative

    Coming to a town near you. It is with much horror that I keep reading stories just like this, and I have heard much worse. There are many people who are enthusiastic about and advocate for sustainable architecture and alternative types of human habitat. Earthships, strawbale homes, yurts, geodesic domes, monolithic domes, the small homes movement, etc. The list goes on, but the point is that in spite of the collapse in the housing market, there is still a shortage of affordable housing for many of the nation's poor and working class. Even for the middle-class and well-to-do, there are many of us who would prefer to build our own homes to our own preferences, requirements, and objectives - such as living sustainably or being more self reliant (as in not worrying that the utility bill could increase 300% in three months). By providing their own labor, there are alternative dwellings that cost less than $20k to build, using materials that are either recycled (straw bales, car tires, etc.) or made on site (cob, stone, log, rammed earth, adobe, etc.). But most often these alternative dwellings cannot be built according to standard building codes, not because they are any bit less safe or structurally sound, but because the code is written by the same industry that supplies the high-priced standardized lumber, brick, and hardware. In addition to complying with an arbitrary code that many say is feeding the depletion of the earth's natural resources, contributing to global warming, and redistributing wealth from working class families to the world richest 1%, the home builders also have to pony up arbitrary fees for permits, inspections, drawings, approvals, etc. that end up costing more than the total materials.

    Many of these alternative dwellings are designed to take advantage of passive heating and cooling techniques as well as collecting rain water into cisterns, draining greywater into gardens, sometimes even processing blackwater, and also generating power on-site, such as with wind turbines, micro-hydro-turbines (creek power), and solar. Efficient hand made ovens that burn biomass grown in the backyard provide more than enough heat for comfort, cooking, and other applications. But even when these dwellings are completely self reliant, most municipalities REQUIRE these homes to have and pay for utility connections such as gas and electricity.

    What is ridiculous is that many of the rules have silly loopholes. The codes that apply to my home no longer apply if I build my home on a chassis trailer. While I might be required to hire an electrician to wire my house, I can do my own low-voltage wiring (say 24V for indoor and outdoor lighting). I might not be allowed to install my own solar panels, but I could build a fold-out solar power plant on a trailer chassis without any questions - even add a backup generator, transformers, and a battery bank to boot without raising any eyebrows from the regulators. I can't install a new plumbing fixture in my kitchen without paying for a permit, hiring a plumber, and paying for an inspection, but I can use a pre-installed connection and use a portable dishwasher and a portable sink and relocate them in my kitchen any way I choose. But if my sink was built into the counter then I wouldn't be able to even fix a dripping faucet in some municipalities.

    With already such a division between the haves and have-nots in our country, as these regulations tighten, the ability to fall back on self reliance or subsistence farming like our forefathers only one century ago has all by already been taken away. The poor and working middle class will still be blamed for their own socio-economic lot in life, they won't get sympathy or aid from the well-to-do, but they won't be allowed the basic means to provide for their own necessities. Living homeless on the street will continue to be legal, as long as you don't erect a tent or an elaborate cardboard box for shelter. Welcome to Metropolis - workers, please proceed to the depths.