US Gov't Says They Can Still Freeze Megaupload Assets If the Case Is Dismissed

The Megaupload case continues, and on Friday attorneys for the U.S. government made some interesting claims. They were in court to argue against a request to dismiss the indictment against Megaupload that was raised on the grounds that Megaupload has no U.S. address. After a debate about jurisdiction and precedent, this happened: "The government also argued that it could keep Megaupload in legal limbo indefinitely. 'None of the cases impose a time limit on service,' the government's attorney told the judge. Therefore, the government believes it can leave the indictment hanging over the company's head, and keep its assets frozen, indefinitely. Not only that, but the government believes it can continue to freeze Megaupload's assets and paralyze its operations even if the judge grants the motion to dismiss. That's because in the government's view, the assets are the proceeds of criminal activity and the prosecution against founder Kim Dotcom will still be pending. The fact that the assets are in the name of Megaupload rather than its founder is of no consequence, the government claimed."

Comments

Yeah Okay

[TemperedAlchemist]

Telling the court that you're going to circumvent the law in the case you lose probably isn't going to be so swell.

Re:Yeah Okay

[Taco Cowboy]

Telling the court that you're going to circumvent the law in the case you lose probably isn't going to be so swell.

 
Except when you are Uncle Sam
 
... just saying ...
 

Re:Yeah Okay

[Mashiki]

Yeah pretty interesting view there huh? Not only are they saying that they're above the law. But they're saying that the highest law in the land, is no longer the constitution and bill of rights. But the DOJ, and the whim of whoever is in charge. Yeah ... now that's going to go over very well, especially about the time it starts hitting appeal courts.

Re:Yeah Okay

[pla]

Guilty until proven....who needs to prove anything anymore?

Welcome to the world of "civil forfeiture". Property has no rights, so charge the property with the crime. The DEA's done it for about two decades now.

That said, the present case does seem to go a bit further than even that - At least in normal civil forfeiture, If by some miracle you can prove that the property had nothing to do with a crime, you can theoretically get it back; With Megaupload, the government hasn't even allowed for that nigh-impossible standard of winning.

Re:Yeah Okay

[DViper01]

To me as a European it is baffling how much sh*t you Americans take from your government and never take action. Since G.W. one law or incident after another is passed against the interest of the population and the only thing people do is complain a bit on the internet. Have you guys ever heard of the possibility of demonstration, strike and not voting for the dumbest b*tch around? Sorry, that was emotional but that's how I feel when I read stuff like that. Now mod me to hell.

Re:Yeah Okay

[jamesh]

remove a govt that is TOO corrupt and can NOT be fixed

How do you see this removal of government taking place? Sure, you could maybe round up enough of your militia to kill them all, but what then? Decades of education neglect has left you with a nation of morons and I guarantee that whatever you try and replace your government with, it will be worse. There are some drug lords in Mexico who might like to take a stab at leadership, if that helps.

I'm not disagreeing that there is a problem, and it needs to be fixed, and I don't know how you would fix it, but the moment you get out your guns and start shooting you'll have much bigger problems than you have now.

btw, kudo's on not posting anonymously when you are publicly inviting violent revolution. If you don't hear hammers batter down the door (you'd better run!) in the next few hours then you don't have it as bad as some countries.

Re:Yeah Okay

[Aighearach]

It is actually just a tyrannical prosecutor, not the whole government.

It is a difficult issue, telling prosecutors what to do from on high, or giving them free reign to exercise their professional judgment.

Luckily, the courts aren't usually impressed by self-important prosecutors.

Re:Yeah Okay

[RabidTimmy]

Maybe he meant George Washington?

Re:Yeah Okay

[lexsird]

At the risk of being waterboarded along with you in Gitmo, I will chime in on this one.

An overt revolution will fail badly. They have changed vital laws that protected us from the military crushing insurrection, so that they can now use it. It used to be a civil matter that the military had no business in. But we seen violation of that law back in the Clinton administration when they rolled tanks on Waco Texas. Since they seen we are too stupid or lazy to call them on it or hold their feet to the fire, they have grown great big balls and down right changed everything. Read about "Posse Comitatus Act" to get the gist of it and it's changes.

Not to mention, I think we signed the UN Small Arms Treaty Friday, and your arms will be registered, which the next step is to take them. It's how Hitler did it, I'm sure they are apt students. So any thoughts of an armed revolt are seriously fucked, even if you did succeed, the UN would step in as well, then you would have to kill all of them as well. As soon as you start that, we will be invaded big time and have to go to some kind of scorched Earth policy to get rid of them all.

Now where are you going to recruit for that kind of madness? Surely not from the fat, retarded, undereducated, lazy sons of bitches here. Do you think this waste of god damned space xbox generation is going to get off the couch to fight for something they have no clue about? Perhaps if football or pizza was threatened they might roll over and fart, but give it up concerning anything else.

Now I have studied this subject for a while and pondered it hard. There are ways to bring about vast changes but it's still fucked. Why? We already have an army here fucking with us from the Mexican Drug lords. Their god damn gangs would run amuck, they already have their hand deep in the asses of cities like LA. We've seen how they have threatened the medical weed shops with impunity, and some speculate that they influenced LA's city counsel to shut down those shops.

We've seen evidence of South of the border intent on retaking parts of America. Sure we all like to ignore this, and we can because we have a military that would kill every last fucking one of them and dance on their graves. But if we are fighting, they will stick a knife in our collective backs. Don't shit yourself for a second that they wouldn't. They already fuck up our border patrol and the people of that region and our pussy politicians are too afraid of the Mexican vote to do a damn thing about it.

Yes, we have a corrupt, fucked in the head government, but at least it's OUR corrupt, fucked in the head government. That means that we can fix the damn thing without genocide. This requires YOU and all of your little buddies to get off your asses and get politically active. This means that you need to be active during what they call "the grass roots" and you have to drag everyone you know and some you don't, kicking and screaming to the polls. You need to apply vast amounts of social pressure on "non-voters" to do their damn civic duty. We have amazing, unprecedented communications tools to get out the word, to organize and to act politically.

It takes brains, patience and hard work. There is no "fast food fix" for this. It didn't fall apart over night, nor will it be fixed overnight either. Until we have exhausted these tools and these means of peaceful and productive means of political change, don't be an asshole. Don't worry, if it's truly fucked, it can be dropped like a house of cards. But that is one hellish nightmare that we need to avoid at all costs. Humpty Dumpty doesn't go back together again, remember that.

So do us all a favor, and park the "armed revolt" thought in the garage. Save that "pissed off-ness" to drive your fat ass off the couch to get out and vote.

The goverment

[santax]

should be brought to justice... This is insane and a clear message from the government to everyone: You have NO rights at all! Time to fight terrorism people and it starts at home.

Re:The goverment

[BlueStrat]

I've spoken to a couple marine types after they've seen real action.. scary shit. They have little-to-no qualms attacking civilians if they are ordered to; for some the distinction between our civilians /or/ others' civilians doesn't even exist.

I grew up on military bases. I know a lot of military personnel, even up to a couple of full-bird colonels and two generals. We've actually had this discussion. I've yet to find any that would fire on US citizens, unless they were like radical Islamic types or similar.

If it came down to the government ordering the US military to "occupy" US cities and towns, round people up into camps, and basically carry out a "government takeover" and provide armed pacification and suppression against civilians, they would refuse, arrest the ones issuing the orders, and even launch an assault on government-loyalist positions if need be if things were that bad.

Google "Oath Keepers". There are many more that feel the same way but are reluctant to expose their beliefs, positions in the power structure, and/or telegraph any possible actions they might need to take in a desperate situation. Be assured a sizable chunk of the US NG and military will throw their lot (and their lives and military assets) in with the civilians in the event of such a takeover attempt.

What the real worry is for me are the treaties and agreements (both open and secret) with other countries that could provide for bringing in foreign troops for civilian pacification and rebellion suppression.

Still, the US government and any forces they employ will face the same threat that prevented both Germany and Japan from seriously considering invasion/occupation. A rifle behind every blade of grass, and knowing the kind of hardware hackers, etc, we have here in the US these days, new and ingenious IEDs lining every freeway, side-road, sidewalk, and footpath, and death waiting behind every window and door, plus our own home-brew drones. That's not even counting the military weapons and other assets that will surely be "liberated".

Unless they are willing to simply kill off ~70%-80% of the US population right from the start with WMDs, an occupation of the US would make Vietnam, Afghanistan, or any of the bloodiest campaigns of WW1 or WW2 look like a stroll in the park. Can you imagine? Former cops, gang-bangers, and mixed military all forming into ad-hoc combat units and working together against a common threat. Not the way I'd choose to unite the country, but revolution and upheaval does make for strange bedfellows when the feces strikes the rotary air circulation device.

I most fervently hope and pray that violence can be avoided. It would be such a waste of life and potential, and an unspeakable tragedy for so many. Sadly, sometimes those who lust for power and control make avoiding it impossible.

Strat

Wait what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Guilty until proven innocent?

Re:Wait what?

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean Guilty even if proven innocent.

The Forefeiture Racket

[geoffrobinson]

This happens with citizens all the time.

http://reason.com/archives/2010/01/26/the-forfeiture-racket/singlepage (Behind a paywall, bu the first paragraph will give you the gist.)

You get arrested for a crime. Your assets are seized. Charges are dropped or you are found not guilty. They don't give you your assets back.

Here's another article

[geoffrobinson]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/when-government-is-the-looter/2012/05/18/gIQAUIKVZU_story.html

It's much worse than what I've said. Some people commit a crime on your property and they seize your property.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

If they do, they're breaking the law.

[jcr]

US Constitution, Amendment V:

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

An executive branch agency just deciding to keep your property because they don't like the outcome of their attempt to indict you is not the "due process of law". In fact, it's quite the opposite: it's grand larceny.

While I hold no illusions about the US government's willingness to break the law and violate the constitution whenever they find it convenient to do so, the constitution remains the entirety of the legal basis for its existence. When the government violates the constitution, it does not act as the agent of the people, but as usurpers of the people's sovereign power.

-jcr

Re:Not quite

[Kalriath]

Except that most of said assets are outside the US, and the target of the investigation is also outside the US. The US Government had no jurisdiction to seize the assets in the first place. They also have no jurisdiction to hold onto the assets if the case is dismissed. In fact, they have no jurisdiction to prosecute either.