Slashdot Mirror


6 IT Projects, $8 Billion Over Budget At Dept. of Defense

McGruber writes "The Federal Times has the stunning (but not surprising) news that a new audit found six Defense Department modernization projects to be a combined $8 billion — or 110 percent — over budget. The projects are also suffering from years-long schedule delays. In 1998, work began on the Army's Logistics Modernization Program (LMP). In April 2010, the General Accounting Office issued a report titled 'Actions Needed to Improve Implementation of the Army Logistics Modernization Program' about the status of LMP. LMP is now scheduled to be fully deployed in September 2016, 12 years later than originally scheduled, and 18 years after development first began! (Development of the oft-maligned Duke Nukem Forever only took 15 years.)"

37 of 113 comments (clear)

  1. All of that to develop some ERP systems by starworks5 · · Score: 2

    Man someone should have told me that a long time ago, 8 billion is nothing to sneeze at.

    1. Re:All of that to develop some ERP systems by starworks5 · · Score: 2

      I guess it take alot of work considering computers aren't very good at creative bookkeeping.

    2. Re:All of that to develop some ERP systems by vivian · · Score: 3, Funny

      Call me a cynic, but I think everyone wised up to the fact that they weren't really buying solid gold toilet seats, so they had to find something else in the budget to fund all that black ops stuff...

    3. Re:All of that to develop some ERP systems by mtempsch · · Score: 5, Funny

      SAP is well-known . . . but I don`t think that many people really know what it actually does.

      Sucks the money out of any organization trying to implement it?

    4. Re:All of that to develop some ERP systems by Sulphur · · Score: 2

      I guess it take alot of work considering computers aren't very good at creative bookkeeping.

      Maybe a GUI would stir the creative juices.

    5. Re:All of that to develop some ERP systems by JDG1980 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Call me a cynic, but I think everyone wised up to the fact that they weren't really buying solid gold toilet seats, so they had to find something else in the budget to fund all that black ops stuff...

      The toilet seat thing was blown way out of proportion. It was a custom-molded plastic assembly for military aircraft use, and as most people here know, when you do injection molding, the initial tooling costs are very high. High setup costs + low volume = seemingly outrageous per-unit price. It's not as if they were paying $700 for the same type of toilet seat you can buy at the local Home Depot.

    6. Re:All of that to develop some ERP systems by Octorian · · Score: 2

      I wish they would. The problem with many folks on their side of the political isle, is that all gov't spending is bad except for the spending they actually like. DoD spending is spending they like, and somehow exempt from all their arguments about wasteful gov't spending "Because its in the constitution!"

      Seriously, anyone who thinks DoD spending isn't wasteful gov't spending either:
      1) Is blissfully ignorant of how the whole industry operates
      2) Works in the industry, and is thus self-serving

      (And for some reason, many on the left are as blissfully ignorant as those on the right, they just have a different bias so they make opposing arguments.)

    7. Re:All of that to develop some ERP systems by Octorian · · Score: 3, Informative

      Even if the specific example may have been blown way out of proportion, I actually see a lot of the plainly-worded outrage as a complete misunderstanding of how the whole DoD acquisition process actually works.

      To this end, I once wrote up a notional piece on The Mythical $800 Hammer. :-)

    8. Re:All of that to develop some ERP systems by penix1 · · Score: 2

      Actually, just about every job the government does is something the private sector can't or won't do. Everything from building roads and bridges to educating our kids. You bitch about your taxes but in reality if you had to pay private sector prices for those items you would really be bitching. Imagine everyone having to pay tuition for their kids education, paying tolls on every street, paying for someone to test your food to make sure it was safe. You get the picture.

      --
      This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
  2. 110% by chromas · · Score: 5, Funny

    It's nice to see someone in our government giving 110%.

    1. Re:110% by 12345Doug · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And what do you think happened here? It's maddening to work some of these long term implementation projects as government support staff is routinely changed causing delays in key decisions. Then requirements get changed along with the personnel changes. Duke Nukem might be a very apt description of what happened on these large projects. In addition to trying to do REALLY hard things with technology that just isn't quite there yet at on a scale most don't really understand.

  3. Obligatory by gaelfx · · Score: 4, Informative

    First rule in government spending: Why build one when you can have none for twice the price?

    1. Re:Obligatory by Sulphur · · Score: 3, Insightful

      First rule in government spending: Why build one when you can have none for twice the price?

      If you don't spend the money, then that much is deducted from your next budget.

  4. Almost all project exceed their budget because ... by prasadsurve · · Score: 4, Insightful

    if you specify the actual cost during the planning phase, then they wouldn't be started in the first place. So people make best case estimates and then reality strikes, the actual cost exceed the allocated budget.

  5. Call me crazy but... by jtownatpunk.net · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...it looks like they originally expected to take 6 years to roll out their plan. Even if they'd been on schedule, by the time everything was in place, it would have been obsolete.

    1. Re:Call me crazy but... by Trepidity · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Six is a bit long, but not really outside the norm compared to how a typical large company would do it. One place I've worked, it took three years to fully roll out our Microsoft Exchange transition. And that's just desktop-oriented software for just regular employee usage. IT projects relating to anything more complex or business-critical could take more years. There are still mainframes operating at some places, and decade-long projects to replace them that haven't finished.

    2. Re:Call me crazy but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not surprised...in the early 90's I was with a small computer biz and we won a small contract to build 50 PCs for the navy specced out to run off the shelf CAD software. We built them, shipped them and the navy promptly stuck them in a warehouse for a year. When they finally pulled them out the software no longer preformed well on the PCs and every one was shipped back to be upgraded to run the newer version of the software. Shame we were to small a companyt to really rape the government for big bucks.

    3. Re:Call me crazy but... by dropzonetoe · · Score: 2

      I joined the Army in 03 just in time for Emilpo to be released. I was the pivot class(42F) not trained on the old and not having any training on the new but we had AIT for just as long for no reason. In 05 I started hearing about its replacement coming down the line and when I finally left in 09 it was still "just going to be released soon"

      --
      Look out, you'll shoot Dorkus.
    4. Re:Call me crazy but... by RichZellich · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No, they originally thought they could implement it in 2 to 3 years, with part of it in place after 1 year. Took 'em 5 years to get the first supply command (CECOM) up and running, but without most of the Finance part of the system. They implemented the second command at the 9 year mark, and the remaining three Commands *all at the same time* at the 10 year mark (talk about a data migration nightmare!).

      The debacle occurred for reasons of ignorance and, perhaps, a fair measure of arrogance.

      The people at HQ Army Materiel Command (AMC) who wanted to contract out the replacement of the existing Army-wide integrated system didn't understand the existing legacy system. They thought it was obsolete - no, it wasn't, that was part of their ignorance, because the HQ AMC people who had originally sponsored the system had long since left and nobody then at HQ AMC really knew anything about the existing system..

      The contractor, CSC, had no clue whatsoever about the level of difficulty of government procurement, requisitioning, supply management, finance, provisioning, maintenance, etc. They thought because their consulting staff knew how SAP worked, they could implement an off-the-shelf solution "with a little tweaking for public law and Army & DoD policy". The supply stuff is the easy part; probably 90% of the existing system - the largest, most integrated and complex supply system in the world - was "public law and policy guidance". And both law and policy changed rapidly - one such major change occurred after the contract was let, and there was a 5-year argument over whether it had to be included in the new SAP system, or if they should field the new system first, and then ask for more money for the out-of-scope "change" to be added on afterward (they didn't understand that the needs of the troops in the field meant that _all_ changes were in-scope when it came to operating the worldwide production Army logistics system).

      CSC picked up about 200 of the original 300 Army system developers and functional experts on the Wholesale software side; something similar was done on the Depot side of the Army logistics house. They thought they were going to be able to fire them all after 3 years. These people were hired primarily to maintain the old systems while the new SAP system was developed but, because all non-critical changes were frozen, there was quite a bit of spare time to help with development of the new system. Again, CSC thought they knew it all, and refused to let the ex-Army civil servants help with the development of the new system (even though they received SAP training specifically to do so), nor even to work on data cleansing and migration from the old system to import into the new one. The Army system developers and functional experts had over 30 years experience doing that - moving from the Vietnam-war era systems custom-built at each Army supply command and Depot to the "new" Army-wide standard Wholesale and Depot systems, and then doing major upgrades as functionality was added or public law and Army/DoD policy changes required major changes. Along the way, Unix and other mini-computer systems, as well as PC's, were added to the original mainframe system with it's custom-written DBMS specifically designed for the hierarchical nature of supply data.

      GAO has some valid criticisms of the whole mess but, typical of GAO, still doesn't understand major computer systems after 40-50 years of auditing them, and misses many things done wrong, and completely misunderstands the legitimate reasons the process was going to take that long whether well or badly managed.

      My perspective on all this is as a programmer, analyst, and team leader for 3 years helping to develop, implement, and run one of the Vietnam-era systems for one of the Army supply commands, then the same for the new AMC-developed Army-wide standard system for 30+ years, then finally working for CSC for 10 years maintaining the Wholesale legacy system and, occasionally, working on the new SAP (LMP) system in minor ways. An "insider" perspective, for sure.

  6. And this is different from other DOD projects how? by DesScorp · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Pretty much everything the Pentagon does is over budget, behind schedule, and budget-wise, generally a spawn of wishful thinking. The "cheap" Littoral Combat Ships were sold to Congress as sub-$250 million craft. They're currently just under $700 million apiece. The "cheap" F-35 was promised to be no more than $60 million a copy or so. They're now just under $200 million a copy, flyaway (more expensive than the F-22 they were supposed to compliment). The new Ford class carriers... an evolutionary development of the current Nimitz class.... will now cost 2 1/2 times as much as the last Nimitz that was launched just a few years back.

    Why should DOD software be any different than DOD hardware when it comes to wishful thinking from the brass?

    --
    Life is hard, and the world is cruel
  7. Who was on the other side of the table? by Required+Snark · · Score: 5, Insightful
    In my brief stint in the Military/Industrial complex, I noticed that there were always uniformed personal on the government side of the table, and retired military people on the "civilian" side of the table. When officers retire, they leave and go to the private sector, where they end up managing projects for the military.

    I expect that the contractors were staffed with lots of "project planners" and "requirements specialists" who went straight from the service to work on these projects. And you can be sure that the ex-military are extremely unlikely to buck the system and stand up to uniformed types. And those in uniform know that they can climb on the retirement gravy train as long as they don't make life too hard for the contractors who they expect to work for when they get out.

    It's a recipe for disaster. Nobody is going to make waves, because they are all too busy looking out for their common interest. It's another example of the endemic corruption that is steadily eroding the fundamentals of US society.

    Of course this is small change compared to what goes on in the financial sector...

    --
    Why is Snark Required?
  8. Re:And this is different from other DOD projects h by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Apparently the logistics of killing dirty little foreigners is quite complicated.

  9. typical for a socialist society by Mister+Liberty · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Government subsidizing private corporations, overruns,
    non-transparency, corruption. And look at the straight
    faces meanwhile. What a joke.

  10. what does "overbudget" mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When government work used to be done by government, it could have gone over budget: you have to buy more raw materials or pay more people to work more hours.

    But the whole point in outsourcing is that you pay a fixed amount to third parties to complete a specific job, and they take over the responsibility for making a profit (or, at worst, breaking even).

    OK, I lie. The whole point in outsourcing is to give treasury money to your friends, and erode the state in favour of scrounging corporations.

    1. Re:what does "overbudget" mean? by JDG1980 · · Score: 2

      But the whole point in outsourcing is that you pay a fixed amount to third parties to complete a specific job, and they take over the responsibility for making a profit (or, at worst, breaking even).

      That's true if the job remains the same. But it seldom does. A tried-and-true method is to give a lowball amount for the basic contract, but charge out the ass for change requests. (And there will always be change requests.) This is true whether the contractee is a private company or the federal government.

  11. lowest bidder by token_username · · Score: 2

    So wait a minute...if you're always forced to go with the lowest bidder this can happen? I would have thought the lowest bidder would have also been the most reliable and skilled. Who would have known?

  12. FEDERAL PRISON by Concern · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Come on people. Say it with me.

    Federal. Prison.

    FEDERAL. PRISON.

    Are we so inured to this that we can't even speak the words, let alone call our congresspeople? Will we not even push people to ask whether the next president will be calling for the prosecution and imprisonment of the people responsible for creating a billion dollar, 18 year "army logistics" software development project?

    Don't give me that "mistaking malice for incompetence" bullshit. That's exactly what's wrong with this country. Just because it's computers, don't tell me you can't tell a $100 toilet seat when you see one. A couple years late may be incompetence, but you should have the FBI given all necessary clearances and set them crawling all over it. At 8 years into a 4 year project, you fire the buy-side project managers and cancel the project, whether you uncovered fraud or not. Fail to maintain even these basic standards, and no estimate in time or money is ever real, and every contract becomes open season for treasury looters. Oh wait, like it is today.

    There is no way on earth or heaven that a logistics system can cost this much or take this long to build. And I would say those so corrupt or negligent as the ones running implementation at the vendor or running procurement within the military should be behind bars. This is not a joke, people - this is keeping American troops in a decaying and ancient logistics system so that some weasel can steal your tax money.

    We could all start the backlash right here, today.

    --
    Tired of Political Trolls? Opt Out!
    1. Re:FEDERAL PRISON by penix1 · · Score: 2

      Government procurement is one of the most frustrating processes known to man. This is true of both federal and state level purchasing divisions. That government contractors take advantage of the deep pockets shouldn't surprise anyone. The fault lies on the contract writer for overruns and timeline delays. It means the contract wasn't specific enough or realistic enough. It also means the budget wasn't properly vetted and that benefit cost analysis either wasn't done or was done improperly. Lastly, it means that the oversight was totally missing in the project. Having worked with FEMA in the past and now with the State, I can tell you that had one of my projects gone over budget or over the performance period or outside of the scope of work that project would have been shut down with the federal government sending a collection notice for the recapture of funds. That is what is needed here.

      --
      This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
    2. Re:FEDERAL PRISON by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't think you understand how defense programs typically go so wildly over budget and schedule. Project oversight is passed from person to person every two years or less. Each officer in charge spends the first six months or more learning what the project is, often from the contractors themselves. That's bad enough. But multi year tech development contracts suffer from continual scope creep as the state of the art advances on parallel to the project under development

    3. Re:FEDERAL PRISON by chill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You skipped an important step.

      Insert after sentence 4:

      "After they've learned what the project is, they insist it is being done wrong and must be done THEIR way, essentially setting the project back to square one."

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    4. Re:FEDERAL PRISON by flappinbooger · · Score: 2

      No, there's no way it should or could cost that much or take that long. It's absolutely ridiculous.

      Chances are, it was originally designed to run in a DOS window on a Pentium II MMX with 128 megs of ram or some such nonsense. Army Logistics Upgrade. That's got quagmire written all over it!

      Someone got a SCHWEEEEET deal and now they're bummed out they just got busted.

      I bet this is one of those things where once a month they fax in some kind of status report that never gets read and it's really just one guy sipping an umbrella drink on some beach in the Bahamas somewhere, checking his bank account once an hour just because he can't believe it's real.

      --
      Flappinbooger isn't my real name
  13. Re:Nothing to see here, move along please. by Stirling+Newberry · · Score: 2

    It is the sacred duty of governments to waste money by giving it to the private sector. That's why these disasters are bi-partisan screw ups.

  14. Article is a little misleading... by zaytar · · Score: 3

    The Navy's ERP system has already been "deployed" at certain commands such as NAVAIR and SPAWAR, so it isn't like they have spent this money and not produced a product. The system has issues, some of which are outright bugs (e.g. losing employee time sheets), some are poor design choices (e.g. the purchase request part of the system had issues with $0 line items on orders, previously we had to put in $0.01 to make it work), and some are dumb policy choices by the DoN or the local command (e.g. we are not allowed to use the built in leave request system, we still pass around e-mails or signed PDF documents).

        Overall it is an improvement over the systems it replaced - for me that was a series of in house systems that essentially emulated the original WANG environment and re-used COBOL code. It does make it more difficult to fix things and I still believe the system has a hard time working with the DoD's "accounting" system i.e. different colors of money, lines of accounting, money that expires, etc.

    --
    /* ICBM Coordinates 32.78N, 79.93W */
  15. Re:And this is different from other DOD projects h by dbIII · · Score: 2

    There's engineering solutions and military solutions.
    Engineering solutions have known goals (don't laugh, I'm writing about an ideal situation here).
    Military solutions cover contingencies which may shift over time. They are also highly vunerable to political whim, up to and including outright bribery.

  16. From TFA by bradley13 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    From TFA: "The department is racing to meet a statutory September 2017 deadline for passing a full financial audit."

    Ya gotta love it. Any publically traded company has its accounts audited annually. The government is so out of control that it looks unlikely to meet a deadline of a successful audit five years in the future.

    The government ought to be required to follow the same standards required of companies. No one has any idea what the financial status of the US government really is, least of all the government itself...

    --
    Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
  17. How do you spend a billion dollars on software? by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

    When you spend 10 digits on software you should come out with a univeral simulator or a Matrix-like sex game. Anything else is unacceptable.

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  18. In Japanese it is called "Amakudari" by Idou · · Score: 5, Informative

    Amakudari. And it is a recipe for disaster in every industry that it occurs in. . .

    --
    Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!