MARCH Presents: Apple I Reproduction In Action At HOPE 9

The name — MidAtlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists — might make you think this is a bunch of nerds who get together to enthuse over long-obsolete computer hardware and ASCII computer games. And that's exactly what it is. There are farmers who gush over antique tractors, drivers who love antique cars, and music lovers who dote on old phonographs. So why not old computers? Many people in the computer industry seem to have asked that question, so there are lots of computer museums around. MARCH was just the group Slashdot ran into at HOPE. Their website has lots of links that will help you connect with fellow antique computer buffs (assuming you are one), wherever you may be. See here a member showing off the MacGyveresque process that is booting BASIC and playing a game on a reproduction Apple I. Update: 08/01 15:20 GMT by U L : Evan Koblentz (the guy in the video) commented with a bit more information on MARCH (including info on the discussion list and computer museum).

Comments

So why not old computers?

[mister2au]

easy answer to that

vintage cars will basically perform the same function often with more style ... let's say 1/2 the performance of modern as worst case ... same for vintage tractors

old phonographs will again perform the same function with 60 dB of dynamic range compared to ... completely adequate for the 10-20 db for range in pop music

computers on the other hand:
Apple I = 6502 @ 1MHz
Apple iPhone = A9 @ 800 MHz

completely different functionality that should not be compared to cars, tractors & phonographs! or even things like vintage amplifiers

however, there is a place for nostalgia - just recognise they will never have the cult following of vintage equipement that is functionality equivalent to modern stuff

Re:So why not old computers?

[perpenso]

Apple I = 6502 @ 1MHz
Apple iPhone = A9 @ 800 MHz

Its not quite that simple. With each machine running its contemporaneous software the perceived performance gap is much narrower.

Altering the hardware for convenience, but consider an Apple II running the VisiCalc spreadsheet and an iPad running the Numbers spreadsheet.

Re:So why not old computers?

[drinkypoo]

vintage cars will basically perform the same function often with more style ... let's say 1/2 the performance of modern as worst case

This depends very much on how you measure performance. My 1960 Dodge Dart Phoenix (2dr) with 318ci hemi (well, ambi-, but close enough) big block and carter 650cfm 4bbl got somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 mpg on the freeway if I drove it nicely, and with ~240hp and ~340ft-lb it was actually something of a monster. But it also weighed four grand or more, was 6.5 feet wide and 18.5 feet long, had four drum brakes and typical wheels/tires and could either brake poorly or lock 'em up and slide merrily along like the lead sled it was. But it also would have had nightmarishly bad emissions by modern standards and it could easily get only 10 mpg around town if you drove it, uh, spiritedly... and it was my first car. It had no safety features, which may not be performance but which is fairly critical if you want to exercise performance and not die, and it had no niceties whatsoever except a push-button automatic transmission.

Despite the sepiatone view of history, better and better stuff has become available over the years. Diesel-hydraulic tractors, for example. Laser phonographs. Even modern tube amplifiers which benefit from superior supporting components! And of course, all-wheel-drive, turbocharged, direct-injected automobiles. Which do fall down in one category that you did mention, that being style. That and cost are the only potential reasons to maintain a vintage piece of equipment. The vintage computers pass the style test if you're into that sort of thing, but they fall down on the cost test. Building an Apple I kit will cost you hundreds all told. For fifty bucks I can get a far more useful computer from a yard sale or flea market. You can often get Pentium IVs for free (I have one right behind me that I should unload before no one will take it, it's huge.)

Re:So why not old computers?

[vlm]

LOL noobs always think "power" is "processor frequency".

"power" is defined by what you do with the computer not the rate that an arbitrary flipflip in the logic can be toggled.

I can run a 1960s mid size corporation data center inside my desktop as an emulator. Very interesting, lots to learn about design. The supposedly much more advanced desktop can ... merely run minesweeper or maybe solitaire. Booooring.

Another knee slapper is when someone claims their iphone has "100 times" the "power" of the computer that sent men to the moon (as if there was only one computer involved, LOL). OK well, 100 times the power would seem to imply you'll be landing on Pluto pretty soon with your much more powerful iphone, so write me when you get there. Oh, you say all your iphone can do is play Angry Birds. Oh, well, thats not quite so powerful and impressive anymore, is it?

Re:So why not old computers?

[tekrat]

Hrmmm. Let's compare:

Boot time for my 8-core Lenovo Laptop == 20 minutes
Boot time for my Apple IIe == about 1 second.

I know you're going to have a hard time groking this; but I can actually be productive in a shorter time period on an older machine. My word processor is 16k and loads in a fraction of the time of MS word -- for basically the same results.

Heck, I can boot a C=64 into GEOS faster than Windows loads these days -- and still get a complete WIMP/WYSIWYG operating environment.

Old doesn't necessarily mean useless. Check out the TRS-80 Model 100 -- still in use out in the field by journalists with limited access to electricity -- it will run for months on 4 AA batteries -- and provide you with BASIC,. a word processor, a telecommunications program (built-in modem), and a few other goodies. Negroponte should have looked at THAT when he was designing the OLPC. Hackers today are still finding uses for it.

Re:So why not old computers?

[tekrat]

And I would still rather have the '63 Mercedes. At least that's a car that's easily understood and not a tangle of wires, check engine lights for no reason, and frankly, was probably built like a tank compared to the paper-thin steel used today. If the "camshaft" breaks (the engine was more likely pushrod back then), and there's no source for a replacement (unlikely), then I have a machineshop make one of a lathe. Chances are the tolerances are not that tight, so as long as I come close, it'll work.

Re:Reproduction?

[Alwin Henseler]

Checking the article, "reproduction" is indeed a more accurate description than "clone".

Usually, a clone copies functionality of the original machine, using whatever tech is available / preferred currently. For example you could replace rows of old RAM chips with 1 larger, modern RAM chip.

In this case it seems they copied the original board, used same components etc. Which is a very unusual way to produce a 'clone'. I guess it's not so much for people who want to run Apple I software on real hardware, but rather for those who want to have an 'Apple I motherboard' in their hands. Which is understandable if an original is extremely rare and expensive.

MARCH Computer Museum / VCF East

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello Slashdot! I'm the guy in the video ... I know, not exactly the world's best on-air presentation. :) Anyway: my user group, MARCH (Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists) formed in 2004. Anybody can join (it's free, as in beer) although our focus is on the northeast quadrant of the USA. Our bricks-and-mortar museum is in Wall, N.J. (InfoAge.org); we're solely run by volunteers. The computer museum is open Sundays from 1pm-5pm and other times by appointment; InfoAge itself is open Wednesday / Saturday / Sunday also 1pm-5pm. MARCH itself has a very active discussion list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro (we'll probably switch to a real listserv one of these days). We also host the annual Vintage Computer Festival East (vintage.org); and we frequently have tech days, museum work days, social events, etc. .... if you're within a few states then please join us and you'll get to come play with our Apple 1, Altair, a Cray supercomputer, DEC PDP collection, IBM 1130, all the 8-bit stuff, and even our UNIVAC! - Evan Koblentz (MARCH prez / co-founder) - contact: evan [ at ] infoage.org