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Air Force Claims To Have Solved Fatal F-22 Oxygen Riddle
Hugh Pickens writes "DefenseTech reports that Air Force Maj. Gen. Charles Lyon, the director of operations for Air Combat Command, told the Pentagon press corps that a valve that inflates the Combat Edge upper pressure garment is the cause of hypoxia-like symptoms in pilots flying the F-22. The problem forced the service to ground the Air Force's most prized stealth fighter fleet for four months and led two Raptor pilots to tell the nation on CBS's 60 Minutes that they refused to fly the jet because the pilots feared for their lives. The vests help control the breathing of pilots in high G-force environments, inflating before pilots start to experience extreme G-force conditions. However Lyon explained that the valves caused the vests to inflate too early in an F-22 flight, causing pilots to hyperventilate in the cockpits. 'It's like putting a corset around your chest,' said Lyons. Eagle and Viper pilots stopped wearing the upper pressure garments in 2004 'because they were not giving us the contribution we thought they would,' said Lyon. F-22 pilots kept wearing them because they flew at higher altitudes and the vests protected the pilots from 'rapid decompression,' adding that F-22 pilots, many of whom flew the F-15 and F-16, didn't notice the vests had inflated early because of the layers of gear a pilot wears in flight. Such a simple answer to a problem that has eluded Air Force engineers and scientists for four years has left some Air Force pilots skeptical that the USAF has solved the problem. An F-16 pilot said the Air Force is either 'incompetent for missing this until now,' or 'dishonest and trying to sweep something under the rug.'"
The valve explanation in the summary is a gross oversimplification. The valve - in isolation - was just fine. The combination of the valve, anti-chem warfare filters, the vest, and potentially other components in the *entire system* were causing the issues in seemingly random ways that were hard to fully pin down. If you took any of these components and tested it individually, you'd never spot the issue.
The moral of the story is that, just like complex software, complex aircraft can exhibit emergent bug behaviour that you won't catch with unit tests.
AntiFA: An abbreviation for Anti First Amendment.
Never confuse incompetence with military SOP.
The story I heard from someone who works at Lockheed-Martin and who specifically worked on the F-22 was that they were using the wrong lubricant on the valves of the oxygen system and that the bad lubricant was somehow to blame. At least, that's what the mechanics who worked on the jets were told...
Makes me wonder why the official story would differ so much? Maybe the Air Force is covering up for a Lockheed mistake? The big defense contractors are definitely in bed with the government; I just wonder how far it really goes.
An F-16 pilot said the Air Force is either “incompetent for missing this until now,” or “dishonest and trying to sweep something under the rug.”
Usually a reporter throws out dozens of quotes until she finds one like this that is sensational.
A quote like, "yeah, this is a really hard engineering problem to solve, and every time you go up and run a test flight it's expensive and dangerous," just wouldn't get printed because it's not news.
..he's Lyon. Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week, don't forget to tip the waitstaff.
It's unusual to have the F-16 referred to as Viper in articles like this. I had to look it up and indeed, it seems to be a common and old nickname for it. I think it suits the aircraft better than the "Fighting Falcon".. I never understood why they had to put the "Fighting" in the name.. wasn't Falcon enough?
- Henrik
- when the Shadows descend -
The F-22 production line should be restarted, with limited exports allowed to Japan and Australia. Also, some portion (probably about 1/4) of F-35 production should be replaced by F-22 production.
The F-22 is operational now, and completely wipes the F-35 on at least two fronts - supercruise and all-aspect stealth. It also has a worthy air-to-ground role, carrying up to four small diameter bombs or a single 1,000 lb JDAM per weapon bay. Finally, with two engines it has a margin of safety that the F-35 can't match.
With F-35 costs spiraling out of control, the F-22 is looking to be quite a bargain at around the same cost per airframe.
Galileo: "The Earth revolves around the Sun!"
Score: -1 100% Flamebait
How many deaths can be attributed to this problem?
The words fatal and death are not in the article.
Otherwise why was ground crew supposedly affected as well? I remember reading something about that (can't remember where)
Why not just make remote controlled jets. Just come up with a good and reliable wireless technology in order to have full control of a jet for hundreds of miles. No need to risk lives, and the jet can do all sorts of maneuvers without affecting the pilot. I don't understand why manned jet fighters are still being developed.
a problem that has eluded Air Force engineers and scientists for four years has left some Air Force pilots skeptical that the USAF has solved the problem.
Wouldn't this be Lockheed Martin's problem? I mean, isn't there something in the aircraft spec that says pilots should be able to breath? So if they can't, you send it back and get it fixed. Just like a Toyota with a stuck accelerator.
Yeah, I know. Its a complex problem and the failure is somewhat subjective (pilot reports). Plus most DoD contractors have larger legal staffs than engineering, so warranty claims and associated costs can be deflected for years.
Have gnu, will travel.
the whole thing is/was a huge waste of money. there are so many better things that it could have been used for. most of these scumbag, government-dick sucking contractors should be imminent domained and the projects be done at cost. rarely any need for a private company to profit off our tax money. too bad politics gets in the way when shitstick congress people care more about getting these make-work jobs to their districts than the overall cost:quality ratio. this is where the most wasteful government spending is.
(n/t)
It's an incredibly complex machine with hundreds of thousands of variables.
...they've solved a problem that allows American high-tech trained killers to keep policing the world's skies for the empire.
The collective IQ of slashdot seems to have fallen.
Anytime you are dealing with pure (or even high concentration) 02 you CANNOT use petroleum based lubes. It will go BOOM. Not something you want to happen near a $1,000,000 pilot in an $eleventy-billion dollar airplane.
O2 regulators used in oxy/acetylene welding have known to go boom when greasy fingers get near them.
There are DEFINITELY more than 4 lubes used on ANY aircraft. Any analog gauge will use a very light lube oil, shocks will use another, engine oil is another, bearing lube is another, hydraulic oil is another. That's 5 off the top of my head and that's in a simple GA prop aircraft.
Maintenance staff who were in the cockpit and _not_ wearing the vests had hypoxia like symptoms. So it can't be the vest.
The F-22 production line should be restarted, with limited exports allowed to Japan and Australia. Also, some portion (probably about 1/4) of F-35 production should be replaced by F-22 production.
The F-22 is operational now, and completely wipes the F-35 on at least two fronts - supercruise and all-aspect stealth. It also has a worthy air-to-ground role, carrying up to four small diameter bombs or a single 1,000 lb JDAM per weapon bay. Finally, with two engines it has a margin of safety that the F-35 can't match.
With F-35 costs spiraling out of control, the F-22 is looking to be quite a bargain at around the same cost per airframe.
BS
Obviously you aren't keeping up with events. The Germans AF recently demonstrated how to take out F-22s in a June mock battle. They aced the F-22 with their new Typhone German fighter which is more maneuverable.
I mean, if there's a cover up, the taxpayers are not the only one paying for it
The brave boys and girls who risks their lives to protect the country will end up sacrificing their lives needlessly
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
You can't have both 'The F-15 can shoot down anything flying' AND 'the F-22 and F-35 are going to be obsolete soon enough'.
The problem is that it's getting to the point that the F-15 isn't clearly superior to everything in other country's hands. It's actually inferior in many ways, and the airframe was getting to the point that designing a new one is more cost effective than updating. Thus the F-22.
Getting into Military theory - you don't necessarily have a military in order to use it. In many cases the best weapon system is one you never have to use. You either have super-advanced weaponry, or such huge stockpiles that they go back to/stay at the bargaining table. Examples include the Cold war and nukes.
With the F-22 any opposing airforce, even those with modern Russian jets, have to consider the losses said planes could inflict. Right now they're best used for training/testing, leave older cheaper planes as bomb trucks, but their being around is an important deterrent. Note: I don't think we're particularly more immune to WWIII than the world was from WWI and II. Given the right conditions...
The F-22 is too expensive to waste on offensive warfare(for now). Opposing it is too expensive to try. Result? Peace(generally).
Meanwhile, I agre with you on manned aircraft. The F22/35 will be the last generation of manned fighters. I just think they'll have a 30-40 year lifespan in that role.
I don't read AC A human right
a problem appears and instead of searching for the RIGHT and PROPER answers the arrogant inbred American Military brass decides to try the old coverup routine. i wonder how many other pilot problems there are out there and how many lives will be lost due to some inflated arrogant assholes saying there is no problem. to those that say there is no problem, go for a ride in combat mode wearing one of those vests, if you survive, no problem. if you die, gene pool cleansed.