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Wall Street and the Mismanagement of Software

CowboyRobot writes "Last week, a bug in high-frequency trading software from Knight Capital Group resulted in erroneous trades costing almost a half-billion dollars. So, what went wrong and how can they, or any other software developer, prevent something similar from happening again? In hindsight, it's clear that the developers did not verify the code under enough conditions. But the real issue is how these high-frequency trades work in the first place. Robert Dewar at Dr. Dobb's suggests the financial industry needs to take a page from the avionics rulebook, which has very strict guidelines about what code can be implemented due to the high cost of failure in that field. 'High-frequency automated trading is not avionics flight control, but the aviation industry has demonstrated that safe, reliable real-time software is possible, practical, and necessary. It requires appropriate development technology and processes as well as a culture that thinks in terms of safety (or reliability) first. That is the real lesson to be learned from last week's incident. It doesn't come for free, but it certainly costs less than $440M.'"

52 of 267 comments (clear)

  1. That's What We Did by crrkrieger · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Back in the late 90s when I was system admin for a trading company, they recruited me from a place that did 911 computer aided dispatch software. My shop, at least, recognized that some of the same reliability issues were at stake, so some people get it.

    1. Re:That's What We Did by gl4ss · · Score: 2

      loss stop.

      trading is done against other people or other peoples computer algos, so no matter what I guess you had some sort of loss stop? or pre-allocated funds which were manually accepted to go into trading? puzzling thing about knight capital is that they seemingly had neither and the robot had access to whole company credit as if were..

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    2. Re:That's What We Did by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 4, Insightful
      You seem to assume that they want to stop the "accidents". You misunderstand the senario - the whole thing is a distributed Ponzi scheme. It works like a sort of "reverse pass the parcel". Each transaction takes a small percentage in brokerage fees as the underlying "commodity" gains or loses value. However, over time, the brokerage fees exceed the true worth of the commodity has in real life.

      The spectacular "losses" are the path by which the money leaves investors, and is syphoned off to pay the disproportionate brokerage fees.

      As a point of reference see gold - the value of gold traded between speculators each day is 1,000 times the value actually sold into industry/jewelery/etc - so a 0.25% brokerage fee on both buyer an seller is worth 5* the value of the gold that enters or leaves the market each day. Obviously, the additional margin actually paid by real life users for the benefits of a liquid market is a tiny fraction of the value of the gold - sometimes there has to be a "software problem" or "rogue trader" or, to use the colloquial term "scapegoat", to provide the money distributed on brokerage fees.

      I am not suggesting any one person is responsible for this - the banks have colluded to look the other way while this system has developed in an ad-hoc manner. In all probability, many of the so called "masters of the universe" are too stupid to understand what is going on, as it requires an understanding of the laws of maths, which they generally don't have. The few "whizz-kids" who could understand are "highly motivated" to look the other way.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    3. Re:That's What We Did by somersault · · Score: 4, Informative

      From the article I read recently, they had just put a new system into place, but they weren't even watching what it did, and had no "kill switch" in place to stop it immediately if it started acting up. Crazy. Maybe the programmers screwed up, but whoever was supervising the installation and running of the thing was a moron.

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      which is totally what she said
    4. Re:That's What We Did by datavirtue · · Score: 2

      Maybe they were not a moron. Maybe they were just technical people detached from the business needs--equally as dangerous.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    5. Re:That's What We Did by somersault · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm one of the least business interested type techies you can have, but even I would know that the most important thing when doing stock exchange software is making sure that it's not doing anything retarded, and cutting it off immediately if it does. That's the type of thing that terrifies the hell out of me, and why I wouldn't really want to get involved in financial programming without a lot of supervision. Then again, maybe that means that some of the programmers who go to work for these places are idiots who don't think about consequences..

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      which is totally what she said
    6. Re:That's What We Did by malkavian · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That's the thing about "not doing anything retarded". There's a lot of things that can fit that description. The frame problem is what killed classic AI, and it's exactly the core of this problem. And it's probably more a problem for financial trading than it is for avionics.
      To get around that, you need a base set of heuristics from the experts. That's what a spec document is for, to determine the limits and boundaries along with the exact operation. I suspect that a fair bit of this gets rushed through in the attempt to get an algorithm out that's better able to play your opposition before your opposition gets their own one out that'll toast yours.
      Political pressure comes from on high to "get things moving now, what's the hold up?", and pressure is applied to the front lines to move it.
      Which comes back to a management failure. Some things take time to get right, and you have the option of managing the environment to allow for the latency until things come out right (which is a fairly meaty task, but means you largely go from stable state to stable state), or you can utilise politics to speed things up (and this frequently means corners are cut; always a risk, hopefully calculated, frequently not). This often means going from a stable state to an uncertain one, with the hope that things won't go bad enough, and you can fix stuff on the fly.
      Programmers aren't the ones in complex enterprises that should decide what's sane and what's not. That's for the people who have the experience in the field. If that info doesn't get passed on, it's pointless blaming a programmer (hey, go program exactly what I'm thinking of without telling you, and get it right!).
      Doing things the right way takes time and money. Financials are usually willing to spend money, but they're very used to getting things "now".
      That's something they may need to re-evaluate, and go back to the more old fashioned way of doing things, and taking time to ruminate, and double check.. They'll lose the maximum possible profit point, but keep things stable and still profitable.. Alas, many of them don't consider that acceptable, and want it all, and want it now.

    7. Re:That's What We Did by timeOday · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I find the comparison to the 911 hotline or avionics (in the summary) almost offensive. This $400,000,000 "loss" is just ownership changing hands in a zero-sum game; nothing was actually destroyed. Even individual investors (who spread their bets) were probably on both the winning and losing sides.

      It's NOT the same as airplane full of people being destroyed or an ambulance failing to show up. In fact, all the money the summary suggests pouring into perfecting HFT software would be a waste and a loss to the economy overall. The real question is how can we fix the incentives to get those HFT developers back working on avionics or 9/11 call centers or something else with real value?

    8. Re:That's What We Did by somersault · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But the real problem issue here isn't even the buggy software IMO. It was the way the software was put into place, not monitored, and nobody was ready to just shut it off if it started going haywire. According to the article I read, Knight hadn't even noticed a problem themselves - it was pointed out to them by the stock exchange that they were doing a very high amount of trades compared to usual, and it still took them half an hour or more to shut everything down. There should have literally been a big red STOP button in place to shut things down if they went wrong.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    9. Re:That's What We Did by mspohr · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think the problem is that Knight doesn't pay any fees so is free to do as many trades as possible at no cost. This makes programmed trading possible.
      If there was even a very small fee (as some people have proposed), then the high speed programmed trading would not be profitable.
      Knight and others doing this type of trading are profiting from very small changes in price which they can see from their order book. They are "front running" the market and this has been illegal but I guess it is so profitable that the authorities are encouraged to ignore the man behind the curtain.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    10. Re:That's What We Did by superflippy · · Score: 3, Informative

      Someone pointed me toward this article on another /. thread about the incident. Apparently, their testing program got packaged in with the code when it was deployed, and it's that test program that wreaked havoc.

      The Knightmare Explained from Nanex Research: http://www.nanex.net/aqck2/3525.html

      --
      Your fantasies contain the seeds of important concepts.
  2. Wny not just tax trades? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    First 100 trades in a day: free
    Next 1000, taxed at 0.02%
    Next 1000, taxed at 0.1%

    And so on.

    This would do wonders for the problem.

    1. Re:Wny not just tax trades? by sycodon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Outlaw HFTs They just pervert the market.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    2. Re:Wny not just tax trades? by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 5, Funny

      If code like this works better than human judgement does, doesn't that mean we've made rich people obsolete?

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    3. Re:Wny not just tax trades? by digitalaudiorock · · Score: 2

      ...or as others have suggested in the past, put a miniscule tax on each trade. That alone would be enough to make it go away. Either way, you're totally correct, there's just no place in the market for that BS.

    4. Re:Wny not just tax trades? by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 2

      They long ago decided that the middle class was obsolete.

    5. Re:Wny not just tax trades? by jedidiah · · Score: 2

      > And "Tax the rich!" plays to parasitic idiots dependent on government handouts.

      You're only a parasite if you're an individual. If you are a corporation then tax breaks and corporate welfare are all perfectly acceptable.

      That's the Republican Way.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    6. Re:Wny not just tax trades? by jedidiah · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As someone that actually stands to lose from Obama's tax policy, I understand the need to do my fair share in tough times. I also freely acknowledge that giving young families and recently graduated students more money will more likely cause money to move around the economy.

      Not everyone with money is a narcissist jackass.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    7. Re:Wny not just tax trades? by datavirtue · · Score: 2

      And besides....when people talk of taxing something to bring about a social result they forget that the money goes to the government. What do they do with it? Where is it to be spent? Paying down debt/deficit? Why is there a deficit to begin with? Should the money be distributed to the "poor?" I would love to know where people picture the money going after it has been taken from someone as a tax. Do people picture it going anywhere? Do they think about allocation at all? Or is to affect a social outcome with no regard for the appropriation of resources. Let us not forget that money should equal resources...it is not a thing of value in and of itself. The lack of answers to these questions makes me nervous as the debate rages on and consequences become real.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    8. Re:Wny not just tax trades? by kodomo · · Score: 2

      I think the problem is that we all forget what it all this about:Trading should be about investment. Not especulation.
      A company that need to grow needs money, so it go public to look for investors, that put their money in the company.
      What good makes a company a "trader" that buys a stock and sells it 1 microsecond later for a profit. A speculator is *NOT* interested in supporting a bussines.

      So the focus should be in that. atract more investors and punish the speculator:
      1) No tax for trades kept for 1 month.
      2) 100% tax for trades bought & sold the same day (so you should sell it twice the buying price to don't lose money).
      3) Some nice tax curve in between (1-e^(t) it's my candidate ).

      That way, you should commit to your investments (like real men do)... but give a real movility (after a month) in case you want to capitalize quickly. Current system just feed the greed of some, and don't help the economy.

    9. Re:Wny not just tax trades? by getSalled · · Score: 2

      For the second case, that is not the definition of front-running. Front-running is when a broker executes trades for its own benefit based on knowing what its customer's plan to do and is illegal. What you've described is someone/something taking on risk and providing liquidity for a small fee. It's also not a backdoor fee. It costs money to trade on the exchange -- that's how they make money and cover their costs. I know I notice the $8.95 it costs me to make a trade (I would much rather pay fractions of a cent per share). You also solve no problems with a trading lag. If you have one, the race is still to see who can get first in line but you just force all the incoming traffic to be at "N time" intervals. Trading has always been about the race in some manner. It's like Christmas shopping in the US -- if you aren't first in line, don't expect the best deals.

  3. Not a bug, but a test harness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Reports have it that rather than releasing a buggy system, the problem was caused by running the test harness in a production environment. More here:
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/08/knight_capital_analysis/
    http://www.nanex.net/aqck2/3525.html
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/what-happens-when-hft-algo-goes-totally-berserk-and-serves-knight-capital-bill

    1. Re:Not a bug, but a test harness by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      Running a test system in a production environment sounds like a "buggy system"(albeit a system one level higher in the chain) to me...

  4. So, sue the developer for the cost he caused. by G3ckoG33k · · Score: 2

    So, sue the developer for the cost he caused.

    That should teach him a lesson. ;)

    1. Re:So, sue the developer for the cost he caused. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 5, Insightful
      They will sue the unemployed coder for 400 million dollars. Some CXO will certify in good faith he hopes to collect the money. S&P will accept the certificate and rate the credit worthiness of the company AAA. Goldman Sachs will use S&P rating to sell the company to some poor smuck, your 401K mutual fund or my pension fund or our municipalities long term fund at 400 million over the true worth. Everyone involved in the racket will award themselves huge bonus, consultation fee and commissions. That is how 400 million dollars of profits are created, transferred to private individuals and the corresponding 400 million dollar loss for the counter parties are socialized. Either small investors, or government institutionalized investors, or straight forward government bail out. We are always the counterparties who are on the losing end of every such gigantic whoppers.

      America once had a great capitalism. Now we have the system where no matter what risk the rich insiders take, all the profits are theirs and all the losses are ours. A system where the ruling elites are protected from the consequences of their actions, where they can rig the game so that they win no matter what, is how societal collapse begins. Jared Diamond's book "Collapse" discusses specific case studies showing how it collapses. Greenland colonization from Iceland, Pueblo Indians, Easter Island were what he discusses in great detail.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    2. Re:So, sue the developer for the cost he caused. by Dan+Dankleton · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Oh, for an "I wish it weren't true" moderation.

    3. Re:So, sue the developer for the cost he caused. by dcw3 · · Score: 2

      Do you know it was the developers fault? It could have been poor requirements. Maybe the customer was offered several choices, and decided to go with the cheap one that didn't include all of the needed error checking.

      This is a lesson in risk management, not only for the financial industry, but any company. Whenever your dealing with the possibility of a large financial loss, or potential harm to life, or property, a risk mitigation plan should be implemented. We do this for every project we work on.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
  5. Completely wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    It wasn't HFT software, it was regular trading software. The developers created a build of the software that included a module that generated lots of silly trades as test data. The software was hooked up to the exchange as a live test to ensure it would talk to the exchange correctly. Unfortunately, they used the software build that included the test trade generator, and those test trades started executing for real.

    It wasn't actually a bug; everything worked perfectly. It was more of a configuration management problem.

    The only relevance it has to HFT is that if the NYSE limited the rate of trades then a lot less money would have been lost.

    1. Re:Completely wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Unfortunately, they used the software build that included the test trade generator, and those test trades started executing for real.

      And no one immediately caught the "real" vs "silly" trades bug because NO ONE CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE!

    2. Re:Completely wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You are correct, this was not HFT. But the test software theory that Nanex put out is I believe wrong. First, it does not match the facts, there were not enough trades and enough spread to justify the losses.

      From parties involved in the matter I heard that their agency router had a latent bug, triggered by the changes introduced to support NYSE's RLP. The agency router incorrectly handled out-of-the-money limits as pegged orders, creating principal positions. The desk saw the principal positions, scanned all the principal strategies, saw no positions there and concluded the positions were errors. They never thought to look at the agency router because, well, it is the agency router, it *never* creates a position.

  6. And Save What? More Fantasy? by knapper_tech · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's already such a waste that so much talent is getting thrown at problems that seek to make money while producing absolutely nothing. HFT is cleverly sanding in the middle of a river in an eddy and dipping your hand in to tap power without getting pushed downstream. What does Wall Street actually produce? What is their product? Why should we care that they periodically lose their minds and shirts? If anything HFT should be taxed into oblivion so that excellent minds aren't recruited to deliver nothing of social value.

    --
    "There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell them." ~ Louis Armstrong
  7. This will slow them down by TVmisGuided · · Score: 2

    Want to stem the flood of HFT software into the Wall Street environment? Pass a law that requires any such software to be written in Ada. Think that one through...

    --
    All the world's an analog stage, and digital circuits play only bit parts.
    1. Re:This will slow them down by Errol+backfiring · · Score: 2

      Given the nature of finance these days, PLEASE DO write the software in Intercal. Or in Brainfuck.

      --
      Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
  8. Warning to execs by jerpyro · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Maybe it should serve as a warning to executives to not release buggy software. I know a lot of shops that push things out the door before they're fully baked.

    In terms of the stock market, I don't see a problem. The long-term market wasn't affected, no value was created or destroyed, and those who played the game improperly lost out big time. Short term trades on the exchange are gambling. Anyone who tells you otherwise just wants your money. Don't forget, there's always a buyer *and* a seller. Just because Knight lost $450m doesn't mean other people didn't gain $450m.

  9. Re:Not comparable by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Is it me or are we continuously using "profits" as a excuse for bad *anything* and pushing that idea to an extreme?

  10. Not a problem by fastgriz · · Score: 2, Funny

    The SEC usually gives them a mulligan when a software boo-boo costs a big institution a lot of money. I never get a do-over when I make a bad trade though...

  11. Early-Breaking News: AGILITY! by Tackhead · · Score: 5, Funny

    A "safety culture" has infused the entire industry, with hazard/safety analysis a key part of the overall process. Until the software has been certified as compliant with the standard, the plane does not fly.

    Blair K., Certified Master of the Scrum, responded: "Well, that doesn't sound like a very agile process to me! "Certified" and "compliant with a standard" sound pretty waterfallish. Why not just have a 15-minute standup and decide to launch the plane? At last the aerospace industry could deliver aircraft on time and under budget."

    Customer wants their plane painted hot pink? We can totes do that, bros! Shouldn't take more than 24 hours to get to Home Depot and get a few cans of spraypaint. Delivered! And if bits of paint peel off at altitude and get sucked into the engine, gluing themselves to the turbine blades until catastrophic failure of an engine, well, we can just patch the paint recipe in the next sprint! Paint that's "hot pink" is part of this sprint. The user story about engines that don't fail is part of the next sprint.

    The real problem with aircraft design is that all our little user stories are in a big clunky database. If we printed out the database's contents (by hand!) on little 3x5 index cards, then we'd be using the best practices of both Scrum and Kanban. Our planes would be so damn agile they'd have turning radii measured in inches.

    When a senior engineer piped up that an aircraft with a turning radius measured in inches would kill everyone on board due to G-forces measured in the thousands of Gs, and would likely tear itself apart because the centripetal force far exceeds the tensile modulus of steel, titanium, carbon fiber, or anything else available, he was terminated because "switching from traditional tube-construction to blended-wing-body design made of unobtanium" was part of the next epic.

    1. Re:Early-Breaking News: AGILITY! by NatasRevol · · Score: 2

      Solution?

      Kill one trader for every $100M of losses.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
  12. what they really mean by slashmydots · · Score: 2

    What they really mean is they were too lazy to write "catch code." They spend all that time making it hyperintelligent then lazy out and don't write any checks and stops and tests into it. Just a tiny bit of heuristics would have detected that as a trade that maaaaybe might need a human to review for a second first. Even every version of Halo is the same way. Yes, is "shouldn't" happen but put in a check in the movement engine to see if the player is currently moving faster than running or falling should allow. Tada, no "superbounce" glitch. For MW3, if someone gets a score of 15 kills and 0 deaths with 100% accuracy, MAYBE they might be cheating and should be booted from the game. A little AI goes a long way, people. But nope, programmers are just too lazy. Once the product is "done," they're out of there!

    1. Re:what they really mean by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You probably aren't thinking enough about the 'problem area' here. Note that I personally think HFT should be taxed into obscurity as it produces nothing and has the potential to cause real damage. But setting that aside, the whole point of these algorithms is to be HIGH FREQUENCY. Ie: fast. If you can get a quote (order) into the market, one ms faster than your competitor, you can make the profitable trade and your competitor won't. Any checks and balances you put in - will result in slower algorithms. It is a constant balance to squeeze out even a few more nanoseconds of performance versus putting in checks. You can make it perfectly smart and safe - and you will never make any money because its slower than the rest. Put in too few checks, and you risk losing a lot of money when some exceptional circumstance occurs that wasn't covered.

      Clearly Knight erred on the wrong side of the balance here, but within the context of HFT, its not just a matter of being 'too lazy' to write the checks.

      Disclaimer: I worked for a while in a HFT firm.

    2. Re:what they really mean by Walter+White · · Score: 2

      What they really mean is they were too lazy to write "catch code." ...

      Hardly the case.

      Trading systems make money by being the first to respond to incoming bids and offers. Add some "catch code" and the system will lose that race and make no money. Trading system developers routinely examine the code in system calls and libraries to see which calls will execute the fastest and if they can write custom code that will execute faster. It's not laziness but rather a design requirement.

  13. High Frequency Gambling by dutchwhizzman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It should be called high frequency gambling and taxed as such. It has nothing to do with the (perceived) value but only with a gamble on what the sentiment and competing algorithms will produce as the next stock or derivative price.

    Any derivative trade and any stock trade that is done within 28 days of purchase should be taxed as gambling. It's nothing more or less than that so it's fair if these big online casino's get their profits taxed so the rest of us can profit too.

    --
    I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
    1. Re:High Frequency Gambling by ed1park · · Score: 2

      Warren Buffett suggested a 100% short term capital gains tax to eliminate all market volatility to foster real growth and investment. So simple, it's genius. Short term capital gains is all investments less than 1 year old. We could start off with just securities.

      Occupy Wall Street should make this their top goal.

  14. One loss of $500m is another's gain of $500m by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    This isn't the equivalent of $500m of infrastructure burning down. The money was lost by some investors, but gained by other investors.

  15. Test People by stuffduff · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "Anyway, no drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power." -- P. J. O'Rourke

    --
    "Can there be a Klein bottle that is an efficient and effective beer pitcher?"
  16. Re:And Save What? More Fantasy? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The really troubling thing (to my mind) is not so much the 'what does Wall St. produce?' question(which, as you note, is ostensibly 'capital allocation'; but the 'how efficiently do they actually produce it?' question.

    In a non-pathological market situation, you would hope to see Wall St.'s share of the economy as a whole be static or declining(as newer technology makes allocating capital easier and less expensive) and the demand for 'capital allocation' exist only so far as other business sectors find that more efficient capital allocation makes them more efficient and productive(in the same way that you would want to see any other support function of a business kept in line with the business overall. You wouldn't want your IT group consuming a greater percentage of your total economic output every year). Trouble is, that isn't what the numbers reflect.

    Instead of acting as other suppliers do, and having their health and size depend on the success of the customers, the financial services sector has managed to capture a steadily increasing share of the value relative to other sectors. Absolute growth would be one thing, if the economy as a whole is growing; but relative growth, in terms of percentage of total output captured, suggests a substantial increase in the market(and regulatory) power of financial services without necessarily any increase in the value of their product to their customers. That is bad.

  17. Avionics != Cutting edge by torkus · · Score: 2

    Sorry but this whole idea doesn't 'fly'. Avionics are *NOT* the type of cutting edge technology used in stock market matching engines or HFT engines. Avionics are designed to be utter reliable to such a degree that they wind up using older tech. The deployment and approval cycle is also long enough that 'new' for a plane is probably years out of date.

    HFTs on the other hand, are bleeding edge systems with essentially a cost-is-no-factor approach. You're talking about a world where microseconds are very litterally counted. 10G and higher network connections - not for data throughput but because it lowers latency but a small but appreciable amount. No, they obviously don't want the FUBAR situaion Knight had because of pushing tech but to assume the stock market is using tech with any resemblance to what's in the DreamLiner shows a lack of understanding of both worlds.

    Let's use a car analogy! Sure you can make a race car utterly reliable and safe - it's called a Volvo.* It will undoubtely get you to the finish line for race after race after race with no maintenance while the cars meant for the race break down, crash, need maintenance and so on. Just like race car accidents, you don't usually hear about trading mistakes unless they're spectacular.

    *substitute your own preferred car mfg

    --
    You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
  18. Step 1 by ilsaloving · · Score: 2

    Stop bailing these bastards out every time they screw up.

  19. You cannot make competitions 'safe'. by Remus+Shepherd · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The purpose of avionics is to get a plane from one point to another without incident.

    The purpose of automated stock trading software is to make as much money as possible while screwing the other guy if you get the opportunity.

    You'll never make automated stock software 'safe'. Its purpose is inherently risky and combative. You're not up against the laws of physics and the occasional thunderstorm; you're up against other people who have similar software and an urge to hurt you. This is Wall Street PvP (that's Prick-versus-Prick). It's unsafe by its nature.

    You cannot make competitions entirely 'safe'. What you can do is pen them in so that they do not hurt bystanders. Just like putting crash walls around a NASCAR track, we need to put up regulations around Wall Street so their blood combat does not spill out and harm the larger economy. Re-implementing Glass-Steagall is the least that we can do to keep Wall Street's fiery crashes from hurting the common people. There are probably more reforms we could make to wall them off properly.

    --
    Genocide Man -- Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass murder can be hilarious.
  20. Re:Not comparable by hierofalcon · · Score: 2

    I'm not sure I'd agree with that part about taking money away from every stockholder, and all. Back in the old days before high frequency trading was in vogue, you would place a stock trade with your broker. Depending on the brokerage firm, it was amazing how many trades that were made claimed to be near the low of the day if you were selling or near the high of the day if you were buying. Of course proving anything was impossible, but the people actually doing the trading were still making a killing.

    Now, when you place a stock order you will in most cases in normal markets get it filled at the price that was being quoted when you hit the sell or buy, even if the stock has moved several dollars per share over the course of the day. This is largely due to HFT. Yes, they are making fractions of a cent each share traded and are making lots of money. But they are also providing the opposite side of trades that you want to make at a price near what is being quoted, That lets you, as an individual investor, get the price you have considered to be fair for the security.

    Yes, I know all about limit orders and other options to try to control the price you pay or receive and that is always an option, but HFT - when working correctly - has largely eliminated the need for them.

    All software trading algorithms are dangerous and can easily cause massive problems when they play against each other or feed on each other. I don't necessarily like them and wouldn't mind them going away. But to say they provide nothing of value is not true -even for a common stock trader who only does a few trades every few months.

  21. Re:And Save What? More Fantasy? by dkleinsc · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This increase in the relative growth of the financial sector was one of the predictions in Karl Marx's Das Kapital: He saw bond markets and stock markets as the natural and predictable outgrowth of the role of a capitalist, which in his view was somebody who made their living not by producing stuff but by buying the means of production and making other people produce stuff. Bonds in particular simply abstract the concept completely away from any actual work: The capitalist now doesn't even do the buying and managing himself, but buys bonds allowing somebody else to do that work and demands a portion of the proceeds of the firm in return. As the capitalist class gains more and more wealth, the trade in bonds and other financial instruments goes up as a percentage of the economy, while the industrial and agricultural production becomes less important.

    (And no, I'm not arguing that workers of the world should unite and revolt, just that Marx was a serious economist who made some good points about how capitalism works.)

    --
    I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
  22. Outlaw High-frequency automated trading by iplayfast · · Score: 3, Insightful

    High-frequency automated trading are destroying the stockmarket. With transactions on a stock happening at thousands of times a second, when things go bad they go bad very quickly. When things go well, the normal trader gets reamed.

    IMHO High-frequency automated trading should be outlawed, stocks should be bought and sold at a rate comparable to human interaction. Say 1 per second. Then if things go bad, it goes bad over the course of a day and people can react. Brokers normally buy and sell bulk amounts of stock, so this would be no different.
    It would level the playing field, and put the normal investor at less of a disadvantage compared to the big companies. If a stock is particularly hot, then some trades won't get made by the end of the day. This is in other words reverting to the stock market of old, where the market could be looked at, and expected to stay the same over the course of a minute.