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Beware the Nocebo Effect

An article at the NY Times looks at research into the "nocebo" effect. Named after the placebo effect, it's the term for when patient expectations do harm, rather than good. "When a patient anticipates a pill’s possible side effects, he can suffer them even if the pill is fake." The article describes several instances of patients getting the placebo in a drug trial, but reporting the expected side effects of the drug, rather than the benefits or nothing at all. Quoting: "Consider the number of people in medical trials who, though receiving placebos, stop participating because of side effects. We found that 11 percent of people in fibromyalgia drug trials who were taking fake medication dropped out of the studies because of side effects like dizziness or nausea. Other researchers reported that the discontinuation rates because of side effects in placebo groups in migraine or tension drug trials were as much as 5 percent. Discontinuation rates in trials for statins ranged from 4 percent to 26 percent. ... In one remarkable case, a participant in an antidepressant drug trial was given placebo tablets — and then swallowed 26 of them in a suicide attempt. Even though the tablets were harmless, the participant's blood pressure dropped perilously low."

24 of 239 comments (clear)

  1. The Mind is amazing by tomhath · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No surprise here, the mind controls the body. Why wouldn't the placebo effect work both ways?

    1. Re:The Mind is amazing by arth1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Drinks with HFCS give me migraines, for example. A sugar placebo would certainly have side effects not even considering the mind over matter aspect of the situation.

      I think you might be begging the question here - precluding a nocebo effect based on something that may very well be a nocebo effect.
      Or have you been through double blind tests?

    2. Re:The Mind is amazing by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 4, Informative

      There are many examples outside the laboratory to look at in order to see the power of the mind over the body. Mothers lifting overturned vehicles to free a trapped child, a prisoner in the Nazi concentration camps whose name escapes me at the moment describing seeing men literally give up, they ate their last potato, lay down, and died for no particular medical reason. On a more upbeat note, someone like Wim Hof, who can control the temperature of his body to an incredible degree, is a living example of what we can do. Science has really only begun to probe the full extent of the control that can be achieved.

    3. Re:The Mind is amazing by amicusNYCL · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That could cause an anti-migraine pill to make the situation worse, or cause reduced kidney/liver function as my body works overtime to purge the sugar from my blood

      Would 100mg of sugar really cause problems for your liver?

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    4. Re:The Mind is amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Seriously? +4 insightful for "What if scientists haven't considered that inactive ingredients might not be inactive?" At least four people thought that was a valid, interesting point?

      Dude, how much fucking sugar do you think is in a sugar pill?

    5. Re:The Mind is amazing by slew · · Score: 5, Informative

      Some placebos are sugar pills...

      The good news (for you): almost no placebos in large medical trials are "sugar-filled" pills**.
      The bad news (for everyone): ingredients of placebos are mostly unregulated, usually not published, and are often formulated to attempt to duplicate the known side effects of the medicine in question in a relatively benign manner.

      **most actual pills, however, are sugar coated***, so in that sense almost all pills (including both real pills and placebo pills) are "sugar" pills...
      ***the coating of pills is often plastic phthalates (embedded with sugar and artificial colors), yet another thing to worry about when taking pills...

    6. Re:The Mind is amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Holy crap, a correct use of the phrase "begging the question"! You win one Internet.

    7. Re:The Mind is amazing by similar_name · · Score: 3, Informative
      This article seems relevant.

      ... for the moment let's focus on the idea of what they call an "active placebo," designed to mimic the side effects of a tested drug.

    8. Re:The Mind is amazing by cranky_chemist · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually, the ingredients of placebos can definitely induce side effects, and this is not a new problem. See http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/10/18/us-whats-placebo-idUSTRE69H51L20101018

    9. Re:The Mind is amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      fructose is metabolized by the liver in a biochemical process nearly identical to alcohol (search YouTube for Dr. Robert Lustig's lecture "Sugar: The Bitter Truth"; he walks through the biochemistry in detail)

      I haven't seen that YouTube video so it's quite possible that what Dr Lustig means is different to what you're saying... but the metabolic pathways for ethanol and fructose metabolism are very, very different.

      The major pathways of ethanol metabolism are:

      (a) Ethanol --ADH--> acetaldehyde --ALDH--> acetic acid.
      (b) Microsomal ethanol oxidizing system (induced in chronic alcoholics).
      (c) Catalase enzyme (minor).

      The major pathways of fructose metabolism are:

      (a) Fructokinase enzyme in the liver, i.e. fructolysis (similar to glycolysis for glucose which occurs in most cells).
      (b) Hexokinase enzyme in most cells, but is usually inhibited by glucose.

    10. Re:The Mind is amazing by Smauler · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I can control my heartbeat at will, to some degree. If my heart gets a massive blockage in it, I won't be able to think it out.

      Mothers don't lift overturned vehicles, they lever them on pivots - an overturned vehicle is relatively easy to move around comparative to to weight it is, because it's sitting on it's top.

      Perpetuating the myth that mothers can do extraordinary feats in times of crisis slams guilt on those mothers that did not manage to save their child when then did all they could.

    11. Re:The Mind is amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      You have any credible references to this notion? I am a mediical doctor and have read countless scientific articles, and never have I heard about any active effect purposely added to the treatment of the placebo control group. That would instantly invalidate the trial, and it wouldn't get published.

    12. Re:The Mind is amazing by twocows · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Do you have a source for that? Genuinely interested, not doubting you.

    13. Re:The Mind is amazing by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 3, Informative

      I find it interesting that you translated what I said to "compare him to old anecdotal fairy tales of mystic powers". This I would view as a symptom of the bizarre extremist rational atheism (in fact irrational religion) which seems popular in certain circles, which views any expression of amazement at unusual events or people as being a direct challenge to all of science, when in fact its only a challenge to your dogmatism. That's dogmatism mind, not realism.

      And this after attempting to denigrate his achievements as just "staying warm", with a tip of the hat towards the old genetics canard. The man climbed 7/8ths of the way up Mount Everest in his shorts, sits up to his neck in ice for hours at a stretch (they had to cut him out with axes in one demonstration, the thing had frozen solid), and hey, he just ran a marathon in one of the hottest deserts on earth, 40 degrees celcius, at age 52, without water. So much for just "staying warm".

      If you know about cold, as you claim, you know very well just how lethal exposure can be and how quickly it can kill - survival training basics, the rule of threes, three hours of exposure, three days without water, three weeks without food, thats how long it will take to become incapacitated. And thats in relatively livable conditions, not north of the Arctic circle, making his achievements all the more remarkable.

      My advice, grow an imagination and a sense of wonder, you're as much of a threat to science as any right wing religious nutjob at the moment.

  2. Too Bad I don't Take Medications... by ilikenwf · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And even if I did, I wouldn't get my info about them from the freaking commercials that list off what it's for, the horrendous side effects, as it shows a happy family playing outside, and then says "ask your doctor..." WTF?

    The US is the only nation that allows pharma ads, and they're really harming our society because people go to the doc and demand certain meds as a result of these commercials. Enjoy your diharrea, heart palpitations, mild depression and thoughts of suicide.

    This all relates back to the article, as these nocebo effects are a result of stupid people taking advice from even more idiotic marketing people about what drugs they need, for fake diseases like restless leg syndrome, and miracle cures that don't work and just cause you to die like the numerous discontinued drugs caught up in class action lawsuits for wrongful death.

    1. Re:Too Bad I don't Take Medications... by cpu6502 · · Score: 4, Funny

      "Horniness"

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    2. Re:Too Bad I don't Take Medications... by cvtan · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Have you noticed that the ads for restless leg syndrome drugs have vanished? Why is that?

      --
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  3. Re:Why am I not suprised? by LurkerXXX · · Score: 3, Informative

    Actually, most folks I know who said they have fibromyalgia have been misdiagnosed because they had non-standard symptoms for some other condition. Fibromyalgia just seems to be a catch-all for when they have some symptoms in one area and they can't figure out what else it could be.

  4. No humans are weird by cpu6502 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    They are so gullible that they will believe anything, even that they have upset stomachs (even when they don't). Or that Lush Rimbaugh is right. Or that celltowers are the cause of their headaches even if the tower is turned-off & the headaches are caused by other issues (like staying-up til midnight).

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    1. Re:No humans are weird by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      or that Chiropractic treatment works. Or homeopathy, crystals, accupunture, tiger penis soup, Sea Horse balls, etc ...

      And I once argued with a psychologist about their efficacy (for therapy). For the patient to get better, they have to want to change; then doesn't that make it a placebo?

      "No!" blah balh blah blah.

      "I see. But when I take a antibiotic, it either works or it doesn't. My belief or desire for it to work is irrelevant."

      And then there are the very compelling arguments with data of the efficacy of anti-depressants.

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead acuse me of being a Scientologist. But even kooks can be right sometimes for the wrong reasons. for example, Mormons. They say you can't drink alcohol.

    2. Re:No humans are weird by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Psychological therapy works by using a conscious desire for change to find subconscious causes of undesired behavior and eliminate them. It is arguably psychosomatic, but not all psychosomatic effects are placebo effects.

      --
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  5. Re:last example is very interesting by jfengel · · Score: 5, Informative

    Nocebo is a perfectly reasonable name. "Placebo" is from a Latin root meaning "to please". "Nocebo" means "I will harm". It may sound like a silly portmanteu, but "nocebo" has roots of comparable authenticity that give rise to how the word is used today.

    It would be a real stretch to make "placebo" refer to all psychosomatic effects. That would differ both from its Latin roots and from its common usage, which connotes positive effects (or at least, sought-for effects).

    It is a bit late for the New York Times to be figuring this out. "Nocebo" is more recent in English than "placebo" (it only took off in the 1980s), but it's not news to science.

  6. "inert ingredients" vs. inert by reiisi · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Inert means inert, yes.

    On the other hand, "inert ingredients" means ingredients that show up in a list in a standard as being supposed to be inert when used in a specific way. Thus, YMMV.

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  7. Re:100 mg? by Zouden · · Score: 4, Informative

    I have type I diabetes and I can assure you that 100mg of sugar will have absolutely no effect.

    --
    "A week in the lab saves an hour in the library"