Ask Slashdot: What Is the Best Position To Work For Long Hours?

New submitter damitr asks: "What is the most ergonomic position if you are working with a laptop or a desktop (with or without wireless keyboard and mouse) for long hours at stretch? Is bean bag for sitting with a laptop a good option? What is the best way to use a desktop without causing tennis elbow and backache/neck problems?"

Comments

missionary.

[Anonymous Coward]

What were you thinking?

Re:missionary.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, no.

COWGIRL

Let her do all the work while you relax.

Re:missionary.

[PopeRatzo]

missionary.

That kind of work never takes hours.

In fact, if I go more than 2 minutes I play the Rocky theme and announce it on Twitter.

Of course, it might take longer if there was a woman here to distract me.

Re:missionary.

[AngryDeuce]

Or, alternatively, if you're looking to get some resistance training in, the wheelbarrow.

Re:missionary.

[NemosomeN]

Thanks for the invitation to your lawn, but I will respectfully decline.

none

[Anonymous Coward]

there is no positition such that sitting still in it for a long time wont cause problems.

Re:none

[ThatsMyNick]

Yeah, the simplest answer is to keep changing positions. And take a break every 30 minutes.

Re:none

[TheLink]

Here's what I think - hospital reclined bed position with the fancy anti-bedsore mattresses, if patients can survive that for hours, office workers can. The usual office chairs and fancy "modern ergonomics" are bullshit[1] - it's amazing how after thousands of years of making chairs, decent comfortable ones are still so expensive.

As for that standing fad, there's plenty of evidence that prolonged standing causes problems. Simple rule of thumb, if it hurts don't keep doing it for a long time.

Keep in mind the minimum amount of exercise to maintain reasonable health, supposedly short high intensity exercise is more time efficient. I won't be surprised if it's true - since most animals don't spend hours fighting or running. It's just a short high intense burst up to a max of a few minutes, then
a) either they die or they survive to live another day.
b) they catch and eat what they are chasing for dinner.

So put it all together and perhaps we should recline while doing "office work", then every now and then walk about for a bit and then do very fast sprints. ;)

[1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6187080.stm
Seems to imply they only tested up to 135 and said it was least pronounced at 135. While it does show that sitting up straight does put more stress (despite those stupid claims of sitting up straight being good), if they didn't test 180 (or more) then their study is still flawed isn't it?

Re:none

[Hognoxious]

You call bullshit on something you know nothing about, and back it up with an article that cites a member of the British Chiropractic Association as if they were an authority rather than (as has been legally proven) a bunch of quacks and charlatans..

I'll send you the bill for a new irony meter. The needle on my old one is shaped like a hairpin.

Re:none

[BigDukeSix]

It is important to change positions in the correct way. If it's your lower back that starts hurting, you should switch chairs, stand up, or otherwise change your seating position. Everyone has favorite ways of dealing with this, or you simply don't become a computer geek.

The upper back and neck are a different story. Pain in these muscle groups is related to bad arm mechanics and is only partially related to your chair selection. You also need to change the height of your keyboard and mouse relative to your shoulders, so that at least some of the time your elbows are not hanging below your wrists.

This is especially important if you use your mouse a lot. Many people, over time, start to relax their shoulder muscles such that your wrist, sitting on your desk, becomes a primary support for the weight of your arm while only the hand moves freely. The elbow and arm then pull down on the shoulder joint, stretching the shoulder ligaments and eventually stretching the 11th cranial nerve. You feel this as the awful aching pain at the junction of the shoulder and neck, as well as between the shoulder blade and spine (the trapezius muscle is the downstream target of this nerve). I have heard this called "mouse shoulder."

To combat this you should try to have your elbow and wrist supported at the same height, like on a side table. Varying your chair height then varies your arm mechanics quite a bit.

Re:none

[erroneus]

While I generally agree with the notion, recently, I have been travelling by car a lot and have found sitting in one position for longer times increasingly easier.

I think there may be something to taking breaks and all that, but also, POSTURE is an important aspect. And in order to maintain posture, muscle tone, weight and other factors also come into play. Posture is important for blood flow for example and I'll just go to the bathroom for a great example of good versus bad posture. Some toilets are higher than others. I have found that the higher ones (at least for my own height) can be sat upon more comfortably for longer periods of time. The short ones tend to result in lower circulation to one or both of my legs. But this posture thing doesn't only work for legs but the whole body and not only for the circulatory systems but the nervous systems as well.

I guess what I'm getting at is that there is less need for breaks and changing positions if the position you are in is optimal for your size... and if your size is optimal.

So, live at a healthy weight and muscle tone to keep the body's joints and other parts in alignment for good circulation and sensation. And sit in things that are the correct size for yourself and consciously make a habit of sitting with good posture. Once those things are addressed, being able to sit and focus for longer periods of time becomes much easier. I had no idea how badly I was doing it until I accidentally started doing things more correctly. Once I realized what I had done, my efforts become more conscious and effective.

Re:none

[supercrisp]

My lower back health and mood changed greatly when I started taking breaks every half hour to do push-ups, planks, lunges, squats, whatever would get my blood flowing. I also lost about 5 pounds in 15 weeks. I highly recommend getting up and moving around. It really brightened the day.

Standing Desk setup

[Bananatree3]

Here is a log of a 3-week experiment using a stand up desk. FYI for comparison.

Re:Standing Desk setup

[Bogtha]

I've been using a standing desk for about a year now. I like it. With a chair, it's all too easy to be glued in place without moving a muscle for hours at a time. With a standing desk, you do tend to shift your weight around a bit from time to time. I don't tend to stand up all day. I have a stool that I sit on for about a quarter of the time, so I alternate between standing and sitting every so often. When I've been standing for a while, it feels good to change to sitting, and when I've been sitting down for a while, it feels good to change to standing. I don't get sore legs or feet. Chances are, if you get sore from standing around for a couple of hours, you could do with exercising those muscles more anyway.

Recumbent.

[couchslug]

There is good reason modern jet fighters have recumbent seating, and it's not just for G forces.

I inherited a power recliner and can spend many hours surfing in it with zero discomfort.

Re:Recumbent.

[CastrTroy]

Only if you don't bother getting any other exercise throughout the day. If you're the kind of person who gets regular exercise outside of work, you probably won't mind sitting down for a few hours at work. Standing at work is better than sitting at a desk and then walking to your car, sitting in your car, walking to your couch and sitting on your couch. But no amount of standing will make up for real exercise. Also, I remember that last time I had a job where I spend 8 hour days on my feet, I would come home with some pretty tired legs at the end of the day, and didn't want to do any real exercise. So while my legs may have been building some muscle, I don't think my heart and lungs ever got a work out.

Many positions

[Macman408]

I have a standing desk. I find it most comfortable to use when I change my position frequently; I'll stand for a while, sit for a while, put my feet up on a cabinet for a while, go back to standing, etc. Half my postures (especially sitting) would probably make an ergonomics expert cringe. But I find it nice to change things up regularly. Sometimes I'm too lazy to stand for long, and I can tell, because my back gets sore. Once I spend a day or two standing more, I feel fine again. But only standing would never be comfortable for me either.

Maybe if I could be walking on a treadmill... I find walking much more comfortable than standing...

Re:Many positions

[ShanghaiBill]

Yes, switching positions is the best. I have a 27" monitor mounted on this arm. I swing it between a standing and sitting position. I cycle through about two hours standing and one hour sitting.

I have a padded knee/shin brace for the standing position to steady my stance, and make it more comfortable.

For sitting, I have a recumbent chair, so I am almost laying down when I use it. Most of the pressure is on my back and thighs rather than my butt.

swiss ball

[cnastase]

Sit on a ball and get up every hour and walk for 5-10 minutes. We tend to lean somewhat when sitting in a chair, with the ball that's not very handy since you'll lose balance. Also you can bounce and annoy everyone else in the room. I have some back problems and a swiss ball has been strongly recommended for my recovery after a herniated disc surgery. I use it at work. Takes a while getting used to it at first, since the back muscles are lazy due to sitting in chairs, but eventually you'll get there if you really want to. And don't forget to get up and walk every once in a while.

Re:swiss missionary

[hawguy]

I love sitting on a Swiss Ball, aka Exerball or whatever. Otherwise, the Missionary Position (TM) is awesome.

And here's the computer mounting apparatus for use in the missionary position:

http://www.pcmag.com/slideshow_viewer/0,3253,l%253D222445%2526a%253D222436%2526po%253D1,00.asp?p=n

Asking for varicose veins?

[FriendlyLurker]

"Standing for a long time and having increased pressure in the abdomen may make you more likely to develop varicose veins, or may make the condition worse." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002099/

Re:Asking for varicose veins?

[ArhcAngel]

If I am making a choice between varicose veins and blood clots I am choosing to live with ugly veins.

CEO/Upper management

[tanveer1979]

All positions before upper management or CEO are not best for working long hours.
Only when you touch top in your company, its best for working long hours because you make lot of money. Lower than that you always get same salary, so no point.
When you become somebody in top position, its the position to be.
However, in this particular position, if your position is not the topmost position(i.e. you are the owner), you need to work very long hours in 90 angle position.

This is how to attain this position
1. Stand straight, arrow straight
2. Bend forward 90 degrees, so your lips are facing ground
3. Now lift neck 90 degrees so your lips can be in perfect position for ass kiss

This position is best if you are in very good long hour upper management position

Re:CEO/Upper management

[uvajed_ekil]

Or: my boss. Last week, BEFORE taking a week of vacation, she worked about 18 hours. It is not uncommon for her to work 3 and 4-day weeks, and I can't recall the last time she worked more than 35 hours in a week. Now THAT is a comfortable position to be in!

Low chair

[Compaqt]

Here's a position I can work in for 5 hours:

Chair 17 inches from floor to what you sit on.
Desk 30" off ground.
Keyboard tray 25" off ground.
Feet on a footrest 9" off ground. Or sometimes on the floor.

I sit in highly unergonomic positions but still don't experience any pain.

Be sure to center the F and J keys on you navel. (Don't center a whole 104-key keyboard on you navel: the numpad throws it off center.) Optionally put the mouse on the left so it's not too far off to the right (again, because of the numpad).

The low chair allows you to keep your feet flat on the floor without bending your legs backward or feeling too much pressure on the underside of your thighs. Otherwise (with too high of a chair), your thighs are tilting downwards and you're forced to put your feet on the coaster assembly.

Don't bother with the classic typing position of holding your arms above the keyboard parallel to it, and dropping your hands down perpendicular to the keyboard. That hurts. Rest your palms or wrist on the keyboard or a rest. (Typing teachers tell you not to do that.)

Put your feet on the footrest, extend your legs to be straight and optionally lean back.

The mouse should be on the same level as the keyboard (25").

Re:Low chair

[cpu6502]

At work I have a setup kinda similar to yours. It also helped that I lost weight, as a lot of my backache came from my stomach pulling downward.

At home I do my best work in bed. LCD screen on an arm hovering in my view, keyboard in my lap (though I'm mostly reading so don't use it that much), TV in front of me so I don't get bored.

Re:Low chair

[Jane Q. Public]

You have about the right height for keyboard, give or take. That is the most important thing. 30" is for a business desk that was designed for writing. If you are mainly doing computer work, the desk height itself is not important at all... the FIRST thing to consider is keyboard (+ mouse ) height, which should be considerably lower than a "standard" desk. Trying to type for long periods of time on a "standard" desk (too high) is one of the most common causes of Repetitive Motion disorders of the arm, hand, and wrist. And I can add personal experience to that one.

(Before I go further, here are actual ANSI standards for office ergonomics, if you want the official recommended heights.)

But for a typical office, let's assume you either have a standard desk with a keyboard tray, or a desk at keyboard height. Then what?

The NEXT thing is the height of your chair. Keyboard may be at standard height, but you may not be. The chair should be adjusted so the KEYBOARD is at the right height for you. Forget everything else for the moment and make that adjustment next. (Do not adjust the chair so your feet are flat on the ground! Forget your feet for the moment. Adjust it to the KEYBOARD.)

Your arms should rest naturally at your sides (if you have adjustable arm rests set them so your bent elbows are just touching the arm rests). The surface the keyboard is resting on should actually be slightly BELOW the height of your elbows. Your forearms should actually point DOWN just a little. (Yes, that is correct.)

Once the keyboard and chair height are in alignment FOR YOU, the next thing (aside from other adjustments to your chair... those are up to you) is the height of your monitors. The tops of the VISIBLE part of your monitor should be level with your eyes or slightly below. It can even be slightly above that, but should be no lower. Having a monitor that is too low causes neck and back problems. If you are using a laptop in the office, put it on a stand to bring its monitor up to that level, and use external keyboard and mouse! It's great that laptops are portable, but actually using a laptop in your lap while sitting in a chair is about the worst ergonomic situation you could create.

Now you should have keyboard, chair, armrest and monitor height all set. The next thing is your feet. Your legs should not dangle from the chair. That puts pressure on muscles and nerves in the back of your legs, and causes awkward sitting positions. You should have an adequate footrest. Footrests that are adjustable in height and angle are available from most major office supply stores. But the important thing is to get everything else set up at the right height FIRST, then adjust your foot rest to match, not the other way around. Yes, it's important, but it's the LAST thing you should do.

And I will throw in one more thing: if you are expected to sit in an office all day, and the company expects you to sit in a cheap BS chair, turn them in to the authorities. Retailers like Office Depot have their chairs rated for how many hours they can be sat it (with appropriate breaks, of course). You might be appalled at the prices of chairs that are actually rated for 8 hours (of course they use this as a selling point). But you can often find the same higher-end chairs at places like Costco or Sam's, or at auction, for a better price.

(I am typing this from my home office, at a TYPING desk [the entire thing is 26" high], with laptop on a stand so that it and external monitor are at proper height, using external keyboard and mouse, a damned good chair, and a footrest.)

Get a Monitor Stand

[VernonNemitz]

If you can raise your monitor so that you directly face it without leaning or bending your neck downward, this will help you retain a vertical posture, which in turn leads to being comfortable longer. I've built myself a number of monitor stands over the years; all it takes is 3 pieces of wood (some even looked professional, because I bought quality wood). The one I'm at now lifts the monitor about 10 inches off the desk. Your preference may be different, of course.

Whatever you do, keep moving.

[VortexCortex]

If you don't move for long periods of time you could cause deep vein thrombosis, and die from blood clots.

Long hours coding are best avoided.

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Most comments here talk about taking breaks to do minor calisthenics to keep the circulation and other minor ailments away. Or about eye strain etc. But one of the most important thing doing the heavy lifting during coding is the brain. And one has to rest and sharpen the brain too. Long hours are brutal on the brain. Brain during waking hours keeps lots and lots of stuff in local temporary memory. These experiences and lessons must be transcribed to long term storage. That happens during the sleep. Continuing long hours without sleep will dull your brain and the code will be buggy. I have my pet theory almost all the bugs are coded in between 1 PM and 3 PM, when the body is digesting lunch and brain wants to go to sleep. So try to work at least a power nap in it. Slogging for long hours without break would lead to very low productivity near the end.

This is especially true while debugging. Only when you stop looking at code start thinking about something else things work out. Countless number of times, I log out at 5PM to catch the 5:15 trolley, while walking back thinking about "pick dry cleaning, running low on coffee but can last another day, today is karate class day for the kid.." it would suddenly strike me, "wait a minute, in this function I am deleting invalid bodies, but the caller's caller of this function is looping through the body list, that is why the grandparent's loop is crashing in the next increment of the loop index". Such things have happened so many times. I think coding is done in many small bursts of activity with lots of thinking in between. Long coding sessions are not likely to be very productive.

My decade-tried sitting solution and plan

[Roger Wilcox]

Step 1: Get a good quality, highly adjustable chair. Lumbar and height adjustments to fit your body are a must. Set your chair to perfectly mimick the natural curves in your lower back, and sit leaning back about 15-25 degrees from upright, with both feet square on the ground in front of you. Don't slouch! Lower the armrests so you can't use them... slouching to the side is tempting and is terrible for your spinal health in the long term. Your monitor screen should be positioned directly in front of you at eye level so you don't have to strain your neck at all.

Step 2: Stand up and stretch your legs, back, and neck at least once every two hours. I also like to go for a short walk around the office.

Step 3: Do core strengthening for your lower back 2-3 times per week. It doesn't need to be a complicated ordeal; light calisthenics for 10 minutes will keep you in much better shape than no exercise at all. Bridges, supermans, leg raises, and crunches all factor into my routine, and there are many variations on each so I like to switch it up. My only equipment is one of those inflatable exercise balls. You may want to visit a professional physical therapist to ensure you are getting the most out of your workouts.

Following something like the above plan is almost necessary for anyone sitting long hours in front of a screen each day. For me, with my tall narrow body shape, it is doubly so. I manage to get by with minimal discomfort using this plan. If I get lazy for a few months, sit slouchy and neglect the exercise, I pay with constant discomfort. The difference is huge.

Ugly veins?

[overshoot]

I am choosing to live with ugly veins.

Not just ugly. Varicose veins divert returning blood to recirculate and pool in the lower legs. Consequences can include blood clots, edema, and (in my case) tissue necrosis leading to ruptured Achilles tendons.

The hell?

[AlienIntelligence]

What the fuck man.

Ridiculous question.

At no point in our evolution was it designed for us to sit a long time. Your question has no answer.
ie, the answer is, what ever position works for you and doesn't kill you.

I'm sure others have mentioned standing. But... once again... we weren't designed to stand either.
We are an animal that was expected to be on the move at all times.

Standing will give you:
Varicose Veins
Popped capillaries
Edema
and still even the chance of DVT

Only thing that can be added, take daily aspirin, 80mg or so, to prevent the stroke you are going to get one day.

(My wife died from too much sitting. Literally. DVT behind her knee, broke off, went into lung, Pulmonary embolism
was a result. Upon surgery, part of the clot made its way to her brain. 3 blockages... coma. Few weeks later, and
I'm a widow. Extenuating circumstance? None that Dr would ever admit to. My consolation prize? Nearly 100 grand
in stuff the insurance wouldn't cover. )

-AI

variety

[dbc]

A recent news article (sorry, don't have link) reported that a recent medical study shows that heath risk rises dramatically if you sit for more than 3 hours a day. Wow! Getting under 3 hours a day of sitting is tough to do as an office drone of any kind.

If you can, get an adjustable desk. My wife has issues (pinched nerve) that caused us to invest in a computer desk with a motorized mechanism to raise and lower the top. It is really slick. My advice would be to sit as little as possible, work standing up as much as possible, and generally have the option of selecting from multiple ergonomically correct work positions. A motorized desk greatly facilitates those kinds of adjustments. We bought a complete desk unit, but after doing that I found that the manufacturer will sell you just the leg/motor/controller parts so that you can slap a custom top of your own onto it. The controller can handle up to 3 legs, so you can do large L-shaped tops and what-not.

Also, get rid of your visitor chair. If someone needs to talk at the whiteboard, both of you should stand. I bet the meetings will be shorter and more focussed :) Years ago I worked for a V.P. whose personal conference room was arranged with a stand-up conference table and zero chairs. It worked wonders for his schedule -- nobody lingered after the work was done.

Swordfish

[witherstaff]

I think the movie swordfish teaches the best programming position. You can hack the DoD in under a minute with basic commands and all you need is someone pointing a gun to your head and a woman under the table.

One that pays overtime.

[darkwing_bmf]

n/t

best position to work long hours...

[crutchy]

...manager

i could designate work to others all day from home in bed with just a cordless phone, while my wife is in the cowgirl position :)

a good manager would be a little different

moving around!

[forgottenusername]

No position is good to hang out in for hours. You really should take a few little breaks, stretch and get some blood flowing.

I've always wanted to try some sort of circle desk that you can strap you/laptop into.. work flat on your back, sitting up, roll forward facing down.. always seemed it would feel a lot better than sitting around stationary or just standing up.

Re:Bouyancy

[SternisheFan]

Bouyancy sure seems to do the trick for this old dog... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2186763/He-saved-MY-life--I-just-want-help-return-Owner-sick-dog-picture-touched-nations-hearts-reveals-loyal-companion-stopped-suicide.html

Drink water...

[seifried]

Drink a lot of water and you'll be hydrated (good) and you'll have to get up to go the the bathoom. People can't really make a fuss over that, so you know have an excuse to get up, walk around, stretch, etc.

No RSI hint #1: Don't use the mouse

[ansak]

In 27 years of professional software development I have watched numerous co-workers succumb to various RSIs, require ergonomic keyboards just to be able to bear the pain of working. The one difference I notice between me and these unfortunate folks is this: I avoid using the mouse.

I use keyboard shortcuts, I prefer a text editor that allows me to do everything including navigating from a standard QWERTY keyboard (in my case, the One True Editor, vim but there are other options -- I've also used BRIEF, OS-9's stylograph and IBM's Personal Editor in my time). Hot-keys, short-cut keys, accelerators, anything that keeps my hands on home row have been my safeguard.

It's also fair to say that I have been playing piano since I was 5 but I still think that "stay away from the mouse" is the best advice anyone will give you.

cheers...ank

Walking

[CentTW]

I've yet to hear anything bad about working on a treadmill desk. Standing is better than sitting, but people generally aren't meant to be sedentary, sitting or standing, all day.

My situation unfortunately doesn't allow for it right now, but I intend on changing that as soon as reasonable.