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Polish Researcher: Oracle Knew For Months About Java Zero-Day
dutchwhizzman writes "Polish security researcher Adam Gowdiak submitted bug reports months ago for the current Java 7 zero-day exploit that's wreaking havoc all over the Internet. It seems that Oracle can't — or won't? — take such reports seriously. Is it really time to ditch Oracle's Java and go for an open source VM?"
You think Uncle Larry gives a fuck?
No. Now pay him his money.
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
So your business model is:
1) Ditch Java
2) ???
3) Profit!
You and the underpants gnomes should hook up!
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
You sound like someone who shouldn't be giving technical advice.
C/C++ has advantages over Java, just like Java has advantages over C/C++
Saying you should use one over the other for every purpose is foolhardy.
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
Hey Larry, what's your surname?
This is the programming language that still bundles the "Ask Toolbar" crapware with their installer. Nuff said.
This is not a sign that you need to start ditching Oracle. The reason more security loopholes are discovered in Oracle are because it is the most widely used JVM. Other VMs will still have a ton of issues, they just don't get attacked as much (yet).
A similar argument used to be debated years ago with Apple v Microsoft... Apple toted it's superior security over MS when in reality, nobody gave a crap about attacking Mac users which only made up 10% of the market. Once they gained popularity, they started getting hit more as well.
The real scary part is that MS at least takes its security flaws somewhat seriously. Oracle seems to have smugly ignored Mr. Gowdiak. He can now smugly turn around and give them a big "I told you so!"
Capitalism: When it uses the carrot, it's called democracy. When it uses the stick, it's called fascism.
Ditch Java applets entirely.
Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
So I know what you're thinking; "Well then how do I talk to a database?" Well as it turns out, every database has a library that local applications can use to send SQL queries to the database. It's true! You can also roll a socket protocol to talk to damn near anything else on the internet. You don't even have to use XML if you don't want to!
Now, these applications are linear in execution, so you don't have to maintain a session state or anything like that. When you're in the application, you're just wherever you are in the application. This might take some getting used to.
Now I know what else you're thinking; "But Java is write once run everywhere!" Well your IT department has the same version of Windows installed on every system in your company, so what's the problem? If you use cross-platform libraries like Boost, GTK or QT, odds are good you'll just be able to recompile your binaries if you need to support Linux or OSX, anyway.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Unless an SVP gets involved, it's unlikely that it will be rushed.
Whatever happened to them? Didn't they at one time have a Java implementation?
IBM's Java work is now part of OpenJDK. How close OpenJDK is to Oracle Java and whether it shares this exploit I don't know (although the OpenJDK home page says they are '...based largely on the same code'), but if it does it should be patchable.
I'm not ready to give up on Java. It is not because I think it's the best, I still think C# beats it as a language, but at times when a client requires non-microsoft, it is my only choice for a modern language. Yeah, I know C++11, I've looked at it quite a bit, and it is better than it was, but as long as it needs header files, I don't put it into a modern language category.
I could happily give up Java, but I wouldn't willingly give up Clojure. There's more (and better) languages for the JVM than just Java.
I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
And if you have not used Java in 30 days, Apple disables it in the browser. (At least Java 6 and I believe any Java version). :-)
e.g., see http://www.christopherprice.net/making-sense-of-oracle-java-7-for-os-x-2119.html
!? Java is basically the only language you can seriously use to write apps on Android. The NDK? It's awful. I love Android but I seriously hate Java. As a language it's terrible, and anyone who says otherwise needs to pull their head out of their ass and play with some other languages. What's awesome about Java is the JVM... which is basically just an open standard. It doesn't necessarily need to run Java code just Java *bytecode*. There are some fantastic alternatives that run on the JVM too, like Scala (and in sort of a different way JRuby). Unfortunately Scala on Android isn't so mature and is a nightmare to get working or really use.
Not fully supporting the NDK is one of the biggest things that pisses me off about Android. I'd drop Java in a heartbeat for C++ if the NDK was decent. Google would do well to start supporting some scripting languages natively too - there's a reason there are so many projects trying to make platforms in Python and Ruby for Android, but they all end up half assed or running out of time/money and they start going non-free.
Seriously Google, give us some alternatives. Java is the absolute worst part of Android.
Have you worked with C# under the .NET 4.x framework now that they've added Entity Framework to it?
It is so much more efficient that any other data access abstraction I've ever seen. It even makes Hibernate/NHibernate look like a lame hack.
I am able to do extremely complex things with 10% of the amount of code I used to have to write.
Microsoft might be making a LOT of mistakes lately, but Entity Framework is not one of them. I don't know if I'll ever have the patience to use another language again - C# with Entity Framework is that much better.
You have provided some terrible answers. Please stop posting about technologies when it's clear you have little technical knowledge.
Java is much, much faster than Flash.
The JVM set bundled with OpenJDK is the same as the one bundled with Oracle Java (Oracle Java is built on OpenJDK)
Java is cross platform, it's worked reliably for a long time
Java is open source, so blaming Oracle for slow development isn't fair (not that I like them, Fuck Oracle)
Some things that suck about Java:
No runtime generics
No lambda support
You have define your maximum heap size when the application is started
AWT and Swing are the official UI technologies and they're fucking terrible
It's very hard to port to platforms where it doesn't exist already
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
This is something I struggle with. Lots of people would reply "python", but I think they're off their rocker. Yes, python is probably just fine for a lot of website development, and yes, I know some enterprises are using it heavily, but when you dig into it, it's really a hacked up POS that carries WAY too much of its evolutionary baggage. Java certainly has a bit of that as well, mostly in the bundled libraries, but they are much more consistently architected than the Python libraries. Plus, the lack of true multi-threading support is just...unconscionable for a modern language, I think. Yeah, it simplifies things for the hoi polloi, but that should hardly be the standard we aspire to.
Unfortunately, the only languages I know which have the features I expect from the next great modern language are all research languages at this point. What I'd really like: Start with Java (convenient syntax that is familiar to many people, and a VM with a lot of important concepts). Go through the standard library and rework it to make it consistent, ditch the older paradigms that still hang around to support backwards compatibility. Rework generics, also ditching compatibility but to improve usefulness. Add support for design-by-contract. Add in language level (not library level) features to support fork-join with support for some mechanism to declare affinity between work units and data so that the VM can optimize thread placement and data placement in memory. Add better built in support for both dynamic class creation and bytecode injection. Add a smart/flexible int/float/number types where the VM will take care of sizing depending on how big the number is, something which can flow up to the Big range without needing to keep track of sizes yourself...and crucially, where the math operations work regardless of number size, efficiently (i.e., under the covers, this would mean allowing for a mutable big integer/decimal). Also add support for primitive collections...but do it in such a way that it's made as transparent as possible. This would probably mean it would allow treating primitives as Objects from a parameter passing perspective, so, say, your Map put method would still be put(K,V), but if you used a map which supported primitives (which would be a lot easier to write with the smart-number facility), it would pass a primitive straight through without any boxing/unboxing.
I'm sure if I thought a bit longer, I could come up with some other features I'd like to see. Importantly, this language still has a VM...I think that becomes more important for the future, not less, as we move to higher core/processor counts and NUMA becomes a bigger and bigger issue. There will always be a place for lower level coding a-la C/C++; but I think that a higher level language really...you need a VM. And, as with the JVM/CLR, I would want the VM for this language to offer support for running bytecode which could be compiled from a multitude of languages. People who have done work developing those sorts of compilers would probably have suggestions on how that could be even better supported, and I certainly think that input would be important for ensuring that support is done right.
First of all, I think the comparison was Apple to Microsoft, not Linux to MS.
Second, when you talk desktop to server, you are talking apples (heh) to oranges. Desktops are important hosts for viruses because of what they are used for and who they are used by. Which is to say they tend to run on-demand applications and web browsing, and are run by anyone, usually amateurs who are easy to socially engineer.
A server is going to be run by professionals who operate services that are either developed in-house, or purchased and supported professionally. They will not frequently install new software, and that will usually be vetted carefully, if only because they will tend to spend money on purchase or support. You can still socially engineer professionals, but you will tend to have a lot harder time doing it, as they usually receive training covering that very contingency.
Consequently, while server exploits definitely exist, exploits that are directly related to a server tend to be fewer and more difficult to make use of where they exist, so Linux is going to have a much lower exploit penetration simply by virtue of being used mostly as a server, despite its market share of the server business. Hence, the comparison of the Windows market share, which is primarily desktop computing, to the Linux market share, which is mostly servers, is going to show significant deviation based on their usage patterns. That invalidates a direct comparison of their market shares in this instance and fatally undermines the argument.
Desktop market share is a big deal for viruses particularly if it is as high as that for Windows. The argument that Microsoft only cares about money doesn't cut it when you'd consider that Apple only cares about making money as well. MacOS is not a community project like most distributions of Linux, it may have more links to Open Source, but that doesn't mean that Apple is immune to profit motive, as we well know. You may well argue that Microsoft ignored the issues in favor of their vision of interoperability and control, but simple profit motive alone is not going to explain the differences without further elaboration.
Apple did and does have a smaller market share. It was also used, primarily, for purposes like design until it became more popular for developers in the last few years. While Apple probably has better security, part of which is inherited from it's UNIX roots, this is not going to be sufficient to deter malicious coders if there is interest in penetrating the MacOS share of PCs. In short, Apple users are a minority who don't really have a usage pattern that will be useful for most exploit developers. This is a real effect which decreases number and extent of exploitation and it *does* make using that platform safer, but it is a smokescreen, not a shield against future attacks.
You could make more of an argument for the security of an iOS specifically than Apple in general. However, even that security model was built more on the need to generate revenue than it was to prevent infections.
So, market share does matter significantly. While amateur hackers may well like the challenge of cracking something like a Mac or an Amiga for that matter, the more professional exploiters are going to spend time on the platform that they can generate the most effect from for the smallest initial investment. These professional exploiters will be more effective and more persistent than amateurs, which means they will tend to keep at exploits until they work well enough for significant penetration. This is a primary reason that Windows is riddled with exploits and would continue to be riddled with them even with better security measures.
To be fair to AC, Java is dead slow to start up. Once it's up and running there are no issues anymore, but on the desktop, the startup time is pretty bad.
Also, IIRC, I think there are still a few libraries that are not open source (and that don't work well in OpenJDK)
Write boring code, not shiny code!
Everything we do has a business case attached
I'd like to see the formal business case you made for posting on Slashdot.
Well, it was originally a 78 page densely-written scenario analysis document circulated four weeks ago to more than 20 executives and managers. They liked it, so I was authorized to spend a week making 45 slides to reinforce the case, and these were presented two weeks ago to a specially selected focus group of at least 30 managers and engineers. We discussed it for a whole day at the meeting. There were lots of fancy headings, beautiful fonts, pie charts, animations, etc., and I got excited and did a lot of arm-waving which helped persuade the focus group to pass the business case onwards. I'm not sure which team they passed it to, but our processes must be streamlined, because it already got approved today, which was pretty fast.
Anyway here it is, reduced disgracefully down to a single paragraph:
"By encouraging all businesses to waste effort making business cases to justify every decision (including trivial ones), we can cripple our competitors in terms of costs (their management overheads skyrocket), reaction time (all their decisions get delayed), and flexibility (they must omit/neglect some possible decisions). Posting as an AC on Slashdot will advance this goal."
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
It's not a zero day if it was privately submitted over a month before. Zero Day means "a previously unknown vulnerability". It just wasn't public, so they didn't have as much urgency in fixing. Just stop calling it a zero day bug if the developers knew about it before hand.
-- these are only opinions and they might not be mine.