Slashdot Mirror


Bruce Willis Considering Legal Action Against Apple Over iTunes Collection

First time accepted submitter oobayly writes "It appears that Bruce 'Die Hard' Willis isn't too impressed that he can't include his iTunes collection in his estate when he dies. According to the article: 'Bruce Willis, the Hollywood actor, is said to be considering legal action against Apple so he can leave his iTunes music collection to his three daughters.' Such a high profile individual complaining about the ability to own your digital music can only be a good thing, right?"

22 of 570 comments (clear)

  1. It's not iTunes or Apple, it's RIAA by harryfeet · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm quite sure Steve Jobs would have given everyone as much access to their own content as they wanted, but that it is actually the record labels and/or RIAA demanding these rules.

    1. Re:It's not iTunes or Apple, it's RIAA by roc97007 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm quite sure that the thought didn't even enter Steve's head. It was never his problem. He was in the business of selling appliances. Content was the hook to sell hardware. It's not that complicated.

      That his customers were short-sighted enough not to consider that DRM-protected content is non-transferable, was a bonus.

      Contrary to customer reports, Steve was not a saint. He was a businessman.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    2. Re:It's not iTunes or Apple, it's RIAA by siride · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't see how taking advantage of other people's stupidity doesn't still make you an asshole.

    3. Re:It's not iTunes or Apple, it's RIAA by cpu6502 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Interesting.
      I just had a debate with another slashdotter (bws111) about authors' rights. I said when an author like JRR Tolkien dies, his heirs should no longer get paid, because the kids are not the ones who did the work. Only the original laborer should receive money.

      The other slashdotter said the Author's kids should be paid. I wonder how he feels about iTunes songs? I suspect he wold be opposed to the idea that songs can be passed generation-to-generation because it would cut into his earnings. And also:

      Because I've found authors/artists often expect their work should continue receiving money for 110 years (almost six generations), but they want to terminate the customer's use of the work as soon as possible. Like ten if they could get away with it. It's an unfair and double standard.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    4. Re:It's not iTunes or Apple, it's RIAA by roc97007 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What, really? Seriously, there are people who look at the latest ipods and go

      "I just gotta have me one a those"

      "What for, Mel?"

      "Dunno. It's so sleek and purty"

      ...and then go out and look for the latest Justin Bieber track to put on it?

      ...ok now that I think about it, maybe it does happen on that. I weep for us.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    5. Re:It's not iTunes or Apple, it's RIAA by roc97007 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't see how taking advantage of other people's stupidity doesn't still make you an asshole.

      It's one of the primary definitions of "asshole".

      But what's really unique and forward-thinking is doing it in such a way that people build shrines to you.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    6. Re:It's not iTunes or Apple, it's RIAA by Charliemopps · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Last time I tried to go into an iPod and copy music off of it, it was even less accessible than music that had DRM on it. So... thanks Steve Jobs... for "freeing" my music.

    7. Re:It's not iTunes or Apple, it's RIAA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Another example of Steve Jobs & Apple copying someone else, yet having the "idiots" think he was the leading force.

      -Anyone who tried to break the DRM was sued or threatened by Apple.

      -eMusic was DRM free before Steve Jobs had his "open letter".

      -Bill Gates said DRM should be ditched and urged consumers to buy non-DRM music before Steve Jobs' letter: source: http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/14/ce-oh-no-he-didnt-part-xxi-gates-tells-consumers-to-ditch-dr/

      -Amazon MP3 was the first to have DRM-free music from most major labels, and they started years after Apple (Amazon also didn't charge a premium, which Apple did).

    8. Re:It's not iTunes or Apple, it's RIAA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You do realize that Apple selling DRM free music was a business decision because Amazon was selling DRM free music and had cut into iTunes' sales, right? He didn't make that change to be nice or for the customer. See comment below -- even DRM free, it is very time consuming and unfriendly to move MY OWN PURCHASED MUSIC from iTunes to a non-Apple device.

    9. Re:It's not iTunes or Apple, it's RIAA by tgibbs · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm quite sure that the thought didn't even enter Steve's head. It was never his problem.

      No, and Steve doubtless realized that it was not actually a problem for his customers, either. If Bruce Willis wants to leave his music collection to his daughters, all he actually has to do is copy it onto a hard disk and hand it to them. Apple is not going to go after them, and even if they were unwise enough to brag about it in public, there's not a whole lot that the RIAA could do to them either. This is not a matter of putting songs on Bittorrent, where the music industry's lawyers could argue that they are liable for lost sales if everybody who bittorrented those songs were to buy the album instead. At most, Bruce Willis's estate would be liable for the actual cost of the songs--hardly even worth the trouble and expense of a lawsuit, not to mention the bad publicity. For that matter, if Willis's daughters had chosen to maintain his Apple ID after his death, it's unlikely that Apple would have objected.

      Bruce Willis has decided to fight for the right to will his music collection to his kids openly and legally, rather than doing it under the table. This is a principled stand, and it might ultimately lead to a more rational status of electronic property. Good for him! But in practice, it doesn't really affect your ability to pass your music onto your kids after you die--or before, for that matter.

    10. Re:It's not iTunes or Apple, it's RIAA by jedidiah · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Only "files" are under license.

      Music on physical media is personal property and can be disposed of as such.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    11. Re:It's not iTunes or Apple, it's RIAA by datavirtue · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I bought an iPod Nano years ago and found it very difficult to work with. It was difficult because I expected to be able to transfer music onto it through the file system. No go. I sold it immediately. When someone purchases a license/copy of music they should be able to put it on as many devices as they wish. I don't agree with giving it to other people, but the act has no barriers when the music is stored in a file that it ultimately proliferates in this way (illegally). Anyone who doesn't think this is a problem is lacking in intellect. Nonetheless, as a person who is not trying to distribute music, and just make it available on all of my devices, this is a real slap in the face. I don't see an answer to the problem other than DRM. But how do you maintain DRM without punishing the legal users? Computers were designed for the ultimate in information freedom, and while they excel at playing, editing, and transferring musics and other media there is a domain mismatch when it comes to maintaining rights. No one has a right to music unless they pay for it.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    12. Re:It's not iTunes or Apple, it's RIAA by tftp · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Then the entire globe is one giant collective group of assholes.

      Not at all. For example, I sell you some of my software. You give me some money, and it works fine. I give you some software, and it also works fine. None of us are taking advantage of the stupidity of a business partner. We simply exchange goods of an approximately equal value. But you value my software a little bit above the money, and I value your money a little bit above my software.

      Even Apple does not specifically depend on other people's stupidity. After all, Apple sells functional computers. They may be overpriced for what they do, but in the eyes of the customer the price is fair. You may say that the customer is stupid to buy Apple. I don't use fruity boxes, personally. But that's just as correct as to say that girls who like fancy dresses are stupid because a single set of a North Korean uniform ought to be enough for everyone. Is a musician stupid because he buys an expensive guitar? Is a writer stupid because he wants to travel the world? Is a geek stupid because he wants yet another computer? They are all stupid, of course, in the eyes of a person who does not appreciate their goals. But that observer has no say because he is not competent to judge.

      I think it's pretty hard to find such an abuse in the industry - the problem is self-correcting. But you can find examples in finances (like the Madoff's pyramid) or in politics; any mainstream politician today depends on stupidity of his voters; honest men finish last.

    13. Re:It's not iTunes or Apple, it's RIAA by psiclops · · Score: 4, Insightful

      sound's perfectly straight forward. so straight forward that i bet they dind't even feel the need to document it in the manual you get with your device.

      i just really wish the makesrs of every other media device could have had the user in mind and allow that instead of forcing you to go through some random hacking about with your PC doing stuff like dragging and dropping.

      --
      i spent five minutes thinking and all i got was this crappy sig
    14. Re:It's not iTunes or Apple, it's RIAA by msauve · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Don't know how to interpret logical constructs, eh?

      Really, it's so simple even the idiot you're responding to might be able to learn how.

      Start with the full text:

      No action may be brought under this title alleging infringement of copyright based on the manufacture, importation, or distribution of a digital audio recording device, a digital audio recording medium, an analog recording device, or an analog recording medium, or based on the noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium for making digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings.

      Now, remove the parts we're not interested in (logically separated with "or," we're just choosing which option):

      No action may be brought under this title alleging infringement of copyright ... based on the noncommercial use by a consumer of such ... medium for making digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings.

      Now, look up the definitions:

      A "digital musical recording" is a material object (i) in which are fixed, in a digital recording format, only sounds, and material, statements, or instructions incidental to those fixed sounds,

      That would be the CD-R you make.

      A "digital audio recording medium" is any material object in a form commonly distributed for use by individuals, that is primarily marketed or most commonly used by consumers for the purpose of making digital audio copied recordings by use of a digital audio recording device.

      Now, this is the key - this refers to audio CD-Rs (sometimes called "all purpose"), not the more common data ones. They're a bit harder to find, and a bit more expensive (not much), because the manufacturers pay a tax on them, which ends up going to copyright holders (read the rest of the cited law). This was a law the RIAA pushed for when audio CD recorders first came to market, and the consumer is paying for the ability to make copies while avoiding any problems with copyright.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
  2. This is why you buy the CD instead by roc97007 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Pragmatically, Bruce could afford to set a fund aside to re-purchase his library in one of his daughter's names, but I'm sure it's the principle of the thing, and in that respect he's right.

    The moral of the story, something I discovered years ago, is that generally it's the terminally lazy and shortsighted who buy their music from itunes. Buy the real CD, import it into itunes, and it's yours forever. You even have a handy backup in the Tupperware bin in the closet. And your kids can get your entire music collection on a DRM-free hard drive that itunes will play, or a collection of cds that they can rip if they feel like it.

    I understand, buying directly from itunes is often cheaper than buying a recent commercial CD. (With older music, of course, you can often buy the entire CD for the cost of a couple of tracks, but that's besides the point.) But one of the prices you pay for that discount is that the music is not yours. Oh, it might seem like it's yours, but try to give it away, and you find that it doesn't belong to you.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  3. Re:Before the FUD and anti Apple rants gets posted by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Because a contract should supersede very ancient expectations that a library or catalog can be bequeathed to one's heirs. This is indeed a government of the lawyers, by the lawyers and for the lawyers. Yes, Apple certainly is on firm legal ground, but if you consider its actions, and the actions of all the other 99.99% of companies, well, I'd say we're dealing a with a pack of society-destroying sociopaths, all protected by concepts meant to protect an individual's liberty, and not apply liberty based on the size of the bank account.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  4. It's Apple Enforcing Their Agreement with the RIAA by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm quite sure Steve Jobs would have given everyone as much access to their own content

    I think Apple does give people access to their "own content" as much as they want. If you write a song and record it in garage band, you're pretty much free to do whatever you want with it. The problem here is that Willis has purchased songs digitally (probably a lot of them) and now in his mind this is equivalent to him buying vinyl records and compact discs. The problem now is that this license for listening to music was sold to him and the enforcement of this license is quite unfavorable to the consumer -- there is no second sale, there is no inheritance, there is no transferability period.

    as they wanted, but that it is actually the record labels and/or RIAA demanding these rules.

    You are more than correct but what you fail to understand is that the RIAA did not do business with Willis. The RIAA did business with Apple and Apple did business with Willis. Willis is going after the correct party here because something was sold to him and he had misunderstood the agreement that he signed -- the same one everyone has to "sign" every time the iTunes software is even updated. I've bitched about this so many times on Slashdot but I think that Willis is going to lose when it comes to down to the ToS. Although, I do not remove the blame entirely from Apple because their sales technique and the public understanding of their 'product' is largely misguided if not lying. The public thinks they are purchasing the same thing they did when they bought a CD but now it's digital, it's smaller, compact, more elegant, etc. But that's not true, you're missing a whole bunch of rights that came with buying a CD including the ability to pass a single copy of the CD on to your daughter or liquidate it in the estate sale. At anytime Apple can revoke your right to listen to this CD and I still buy physical copies of music for many reasons -- this being one of them.

    I'm the sure the RIAA would have loved to dispatch a gestapo to your estate sale and destroy your vinyl and cassettes when someone died but they didn't. And that meant that these things retained value. Now that they're on the "iCloud" or whatever, they can do that without looking like Nazis so they definitely will and Apple won't have any say in the matter. Don't give Apple a free pass though, they're laughing all the way to the bank as you sign a ToS explaining how your rights are diminutive compared to physical media yet you spend like you're buying a physical entity.

    Buy physical media, extract it to your computer and then shelve it. Otherwise you need to understand that what you're "buying" from Apple or Amazon or whomever is non-transferable and at the very least temporary in that you are mortal.

    --
    My work here is dung.
  5. Re:DRM free by beelsebob · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The files being DRM free, and the license being fully transferrable to anyone to do as they will with are entirely separate concepts. Linux is DRM free, that doesn't mean I can distribute a binary copy of it and refuse to give out the source.

  6. Re:It's Apple Enforcing Their Agreement with the R by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    is non-transferable and at the very least temporary in that you are mortal.

    Can a corporation purchase these licenses, and can the corporation be transfered to other relatives?

    The DMCA allows non-mortal 'beings' to hold copyright and transfer it indefinately, why should corporeal beings be at a disadvantage when it comes to the same thing.

  7. simple answer by OrangeTide · · Score: 4, Insightful

    because corporeal beings don't run the government.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  8. Re:It's Apple Enforcing Their Agreement with the R by sjames · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Pirate Bay it is then. You can re-download as many times as you need to and you can pass it on without a problem.