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Ask Slashdot: How Much Is a Fun Job Worth?
Nicros writes "I have the good fortune to be a lead software engineer in a really fun company. The culture and people are great, and while the position has some down sides (distance from home, future opportunities), in general I'm quite happy there, and I wasn't looking for a new job. Now, I've had an offer to go be a software director for a new company. The pay is more than 10% better, the location is closer to home, and the people seem nice. I would get to grow a new group as I saw fit, following some regulatory guidelines. Problem is, I just can't decide what to do, and I'm not even sure why I can't decide. Maybe it has to do with leaving a job that I like (something I've never done) that just doesn't sit well with me. Maybe it's fear. I'm 40, so maybe it's just getting older and appreciating stability more. But then again, I have my current position dialed in, and could use a change. I have ambition, and my current company has made every effort to work with me to develop my career — probably more in the business development side, but that could be fun too. That career path is just more vague and longer-term than jumping right into a director position, with no guarantee that it would even work out. In the new company, software is not what this company does primarily; not many people would use the software, so the appreciation level would be much lower than my current position. Has anyone made a transition like this in software? How did it work out? Did you stay or did you go? Why? What's more important, the people and culture at a job, or the opportunities that job presents for future growth?"
A fun place to work is, well... fun! But if you aren't happy (pay, commute, promotion, etc) then you aren't happy and soon you'll start to resent the fun place.
Take my advice, find a job you are happy with and make it the fun place!
crazy dynamite monkey
Don't forget that you spend a major part of your life there. Unless this is an "up or out" kind of situation, stay. 10% more money is not that much. And building up a team comes with a serious risk of failure, often by factors outside of your control.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Unless they are paying you drastically more (20 or 30%), stay with the place you enjoy. Hell, you could just move closer to your current job.
It is hard to find a job you enjoy with people you like to work with. If this new place has problems, personal as well as business side, you are screwed. It will be hard to find a "fun" job again.
At 40, you should know by now that it isn't what your reward is, but how much you are enjoying it.
If a job offered me a 100% raise, but I had to commute an hour each way, I'd say no. My current commute is 7 minutes. That would mean I lose almost 2 hours of personal time in the evening every single day, and that is not worth doubling my salary to me. However, other people have different priorities for what they are looking to achieve.
If being closer to home and earning a little more money is more important to you and will bring you a greater sense of satisfaction and fulfillment than your current situation, then make the change. But if money isn't that important to you, you are "close enough" to home, and you are really happy at your current position, be sure you aren't just moving because "the grass is greener."
I'd rather have a job I like that pays 70K than a job that sucks for 100K. You spend A LOT of time there, so you might as well enjoy it.
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I've been there several times. Tell your current company about your offer, they will counter if they appreciate you as much as you say they do. Finish the negotiation process before you try to sort out your feelings about which position is best. If they don't your decision is made for you (you can't stay and still have any cred' if they don't try to keep you).
Somebody with those kinds of doubts doesn't really want to move. It's OK to stick with what you know. Just give yourself permission to be more concerned with security. Really. It's OK. A lot of people would love to be in your position. Yeah, somebody else might take job B, run with it, and make senior VP. They have no doubts; but if you try to do the Evil Kneival jump with doubts, you're gonna miss the ramp. When the jump is right, you won't even think about looking back, and you'll hit it just right.
Take the new money and be sure to burn your bridges on your way out the door.
What doesn't kill you only delays the inevitable
I took a course decades ago that mentioned 'Hygeine needs' - google that. From that sort of thing...
Herzberg asked people about times when they had felt good about their work. He discovered that the key determinants of job satisfaction were Achievement, Recognition, Work itself, Responsibility and Advancement.
He also found that key dissatisfiers were Company policy and administration, Supervision, Salary, Interpersonal relationships and Working conditions.
So - more salary isn't as important a thing as other stuff. If you're underpaid (or think you are), you're unhappy. If you are paid enough you're happy. More than enough isn't a great lift.
I tend to agree - I could earn a helluva lot more in the US or Europe - meantime I'm enjoying low-stress NZ while we raise the kid and walk beaches with the dog. And I earn enough.
"The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes" - Winston Churchill
This all comes down to if you want to play it safe (stability motivates you), or if you want to roll the dice and gamble (change motivates you).
I speak from experience. I made a risky choice in 2000 and joined a startup, quitting a secure job at IBM that I would (in all likelihood) still have today. The job I went to paid better, was a lot of fun, exciting, challenging, and in the end a failure. My career has never fully recovered, and I am certain that had I stayed at IBM I would be finincially way further ahead than I am now. By all reasonalble criteria, I should regret my decision.
Yet I *had* to do it: I crave re-invention and change. I wouldn't be happy stuck in the douldrums of a stagnant work environment. I work for myself now, but I have no problems envisioning myself going back to being a cog in a big machine again. I'm open to, and embrace, the possibilities.
But as for you, you have to make that decision for yourself. The operative word about your job is not "fun", it's "happiness". You're in a fortunate position of being satisfied with your career, so you need to decide if you will regret not taking the opportunity to do more (and risk that you will fail). Good luck.
Look at the tomato! Isn't it sad? He can't dance! Poor tomato!
The conventional wisdom says never take a counteroffer. Your loyalty is questioned so you'll be the first to go during layoffs, they'll take the pay bump out of your future raises, and other people will eventually find out. I've also heard about people taking a counteroffer and not actually getting one... by the time you realize this, the other position is filled.
It works not because it settles the question for you, but because in that brief moment when the coin is in the air, you suddenly know what you are hoping for.
The people and culture were worth more. You spend such a large amount of your waking time on the job, its miserable not to like it 100%. Even if you have to sacrifice advancement, or commute, or whatever. There were times when I commuted 25 miles farther each way for half the bennies, just because of the team.
Conversely if you can't stand a place because of the atmosphere or management style, or whatever, then it doesn't matter if they're next door and offer a 200% premium... it just won't be worth it, and you won't last very long there.
Been there, done that. A few times no less.
C|N>K
Flip a coin!
You haven't finished explaining the algorithm
Flip a coin!
a) If you agree, great.
b) If you want to flip again, go for 2/3 or otherwise reconsider the rules, then you wanted the other decision.
Really, while the question is not short, there is still much data missing (how far is "further away", how fun is "fun", etc, etc.). There is no exact formula that can help.
I'd rather have a job I like that pays $70K (which is, practically speaking, about what I actually need to pay the bills, pay off debt and support my family) than a job I like that pays $45K and two part-time jobs I like that each pay $10K - which is what I have now.
There is absolutely something to be said for liking a job, but there's also something to be said for at least getting raises in line with inflation...
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
This is ridiculous, unless you like work for the mafia or something. Maybe there is some lunatic employers out there that hold their positions like a girlfriend but most realize that people (especially talented ones) might be tempted by outside offers. The only time I could think of that a normal employer would do stuff like that is if you are obviously leveraging the new position to twist their arm. A little honesty goes a long way, if he brought this question to his current employer they would respect the honesty and heads up most likely. I've left a couple companies who have countered and they would gladly take me back tomorrow.
Fair enough.
My job pays enough, barely, but enough. That said I love my job. My boss is awesome, my co-workers are excellent, perks are decent.
I flatly refused offers (same company even) unless they had a minimum 20% premium above what I make now.
That's what a good job is worth to me.
If (in OP's case) it's closer to home and your commute costs saved + that 10% raise == 20% then I'd consider it (based wholly on my model).
To knowingly go into a job that sucked? only if I knew I was losing my good job, or the pay was 7 digits (absurd? sure, but that's what it costs to lease my soul. two years at that then I can retire if I do it right)
-nB.
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
That's the situation I was in a couple years ago. Got an offer from a startup-type place at a significant pay increase from my current stable job. After much hemming and hawing, I finally decided to take it... however when I went to give notice, my old employer volunteered a counteroffer... so I stayed, and got the best of both worlds.
To the OP, you might just tell your current boss that you're thinking about leaving and see what he says. His answer, either way, will help you decide what to do.
DRM 'manages access' in the same way that a prison 'manages freedom'
The red flag for me was,
In the new company, software is not what this company does primarily.
I've always tried to be in companies in which what I did was directly tied to the company's main business. There is an analogy to a river: You want to be in the main stream, not in some backwater, so that when things get tight and money dries up, you're not left high and dry -- as in, a department or division that can be conveniently closed as a "cost reduction," with little (immediate) effect on their main business.
A corollary to this applies to physical locations, too: Remote sites will be closed before corporate headquarters will be, so pay attention to your job's location.
Besides, if you're not in the company's main business, you could develop a fabulous thing, and nobody at your company will appreciate it. (Think Xerox PARC. There are many examples at smaller scales.)
Enjoying what you do is *everything*.
I can relate personally. I had an aerospace job once. Loved it. Until we sold out to a big corporation who saw we were profitable. They brought in lots of bean counters and other useless folk whom I suspect were hired into a "good job" as a return favor for a relative's help getting funding.
Working there became like hell for me. Lots of "men of the suit" micromanaging everything. What was once "creativity" became "re-inventing the wheel", what was once "meticulous diligence" became "perfectionist"- in a negative light. Everything became justified only on a profit basis, lots of points for making things cheap, and no-one seemed to care whether or not the thing would work or be maintainable.
At one time, sleeping, eating, or having to attend to bodily functions were a royal nuisance for me because they trumped my work. After management succeeded in "de-funning" the work, I began looking forward to the end of the day and hating like all getout to get out of bed in the morning. When I voiced my concerns, the reply was down the lines of "that's why it's called work - and why your pay is called compensation". Well, it used to be fun. If I just wanted money, I would have been a plumber. Not much fun, but people with a stopped up toilet will pay damn near anything to have it work again.
I was making good money, but my soul just wasn't there anymore. Forces valued far more than my engineering skill were at work, forces of pure economics. We had the money for cosmetic things and "leadership", but I would have to justify things like getting time to explore new technologies. I lost drive. No-one else seemed to care. We were so inundated with Government money all that seemed to matter was meetings and forms. We could always outsource the work, put our name on it, then our commitment would be met. Handshakes and hefty checks for everyone in the upper echelons.
I was just getting ulcers, high blood pressure, and water retention problems which I think was due to my anxiety over being responsible for things I had no control over. I was just a lowly lab rat - not much use to a megamoney corp.
I make nowhere near what I used to make, but at least I enjoy my day building embedded controllers ( mostly Arduino based ) along with the analog/power interfaces. I dabble in refrigeration too, lately working on ice-bank technologies using propane refrigerant and arduino based controllers. I get to play with Dallas DS18B20 temperature sensors, I2C busses, ADS1115 digitizers, Ferromagnetic memories, DS1307 clocks, linked together with YellowJacket WIFI interfaces.
Like messing with race cars or sports, I get a kick of seeing how many BTU ( MJ ) I can transfer to the ice-based phase-change energy storage with the energy I have available.
This is a heck of a lot more interesting than filling out all the forms and keeping time sheets of numerous "simultaneous" projects, at 6 minute resolution, for projects falling further and further behind because when I am working on one, someone is always badgering me about yet another one. The time sheets were a joke anyway - as we all knew certain projects were running low on funding, but it was politically inexpedient to charge time to them - but they had to be done. Well-funded projects took the brunt of everything. ( Just like an insured patient in a hospital ).
Bottom line.... if you are not happy, your enthusiasm will soon leave you, then you will eventually be fired for not being a "team player". Best find something you enjoy so you will make money for those who employ you. .
Money isn't everything. Observe how the rich often abuse their cars as well - they always have plenty of money to pay the mechanic to keep them fixed. Their skill is in getting paid. That is not one of my skills. I'd rather eat at McDonalds in peace than in the fanciest restaurant in town, full of ulcers and stress of trying to be something I am not.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
It's not just more pay, though. It's an upgrade in title. While that isn't that important in the grand scheme of day-to-day, when you go for the NEXT job, being a director has different implications than being a lead engineer. The next company will be more likely to hire you in at a management level instead of an IC level.......which usually entails more pay / perks.
10% isn't enough of an increase to leave a job you KNOW you like for one that you MIGHT like.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law - Aleister Crowley
Don't go in saying
"give me this or im leaving"
you get the quick boot.
Say you are receiving very competitive offers from other companies. You enjoy working here, but the increased pay is very attractive.
You will have much better success
Enjoying what you do is *everything*
Absolutely! You'll be hating life if you have a rotten job, no matter what it pays.
Some might think that saving their marriages, feeding their families, paying off debts, and the great difficulty of getting another job in a terrible economy (seems the economy is always terrible), and the like are reasons to put up with the job from Hell. Be stoic about it. No. Saw one damned fool who got married on the understanding that he had to have a steady job. She hit him with a prenup 2 weeks before the wedding. Told him to sign or the wedding was off. He signed. He was doing anything to keep his job. Anything. Yet the things he did to keep his job, things like framing others for his mistakes, repeatedly trying to snow customers with loads of bull, bullying and browbeating underlings, sabotaging anyone who might show him up whether or not that was intended, and general dirty office politicking but assured that he would be fired, as eventually did happen. He understood that, but could not bring himself to act differently, he was so afraid. I don't know what happened to his marriage.
Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
was in leaving a job I loved to take a job that sucked but paid a lot more. 2 years of that job almost killed me.
Now on the other hand, if you're really serious, take a handful of people in the new company out to lunch. Buy them pizza, and talk to them. About life, interests, girlfriends, families, and see if they're a good fit. Don't talk to your bosses, talk to your peers in the new company, and the people who would work for you. That's the people who can help you make the decision.
Don't think my post is coming from a young'un who is putting down older workers; I'm 44. You're literally at the end of your rope, career-wise and so am I. You have a chance to get a 10% raise and transition into management (away from the deathtrap of IT). OMFG, DO IT NOW NOW NOW. Do it while you can. Get the money now before the industry pegs you a "has been".
Seriously. Go. Even if your'e a bit less happy you'll be better off career-wise and retirement-wise. It's the adult, smart choice. Go.
"We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
Faulty logic. The time you save is the time at the end of your life, not the time when you're young and can do things. In short, not all time is equal.
No. The reason you flip a coin is because the coin will land on the correct choice for you, if it's a legitimate coin-flip. Otherwise, your body would find a way to shut it down.
So it is 70k vs 77k. Not worth it in my opinion. Not if he is happy where he is. And 10% more for a director role? Seems low.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
I just got a new boss (promoted from within our group) and I to him mentioned how companies treat engineering and software as a cost center - a necessary evil to be minimized. All my old bosses would agree. Sales people get a commission because they can say - look, if I didn't make THAT sale then THAT money wouldn't come in. Product development is so far removed from the money that it get's viewed quite differently. Now you can argue that if the sales guy didn't have THAT product that we designed and wrote code for, then THAT money wouldn't be here. Somehow that doesn't fly. So back to my new boss.... A few day later he came back and said fuck that "necessary evil" thing - I don't ever want here people say that. We're going to market our controls (my group does controls/algorithms and such) in terms the customers can understand and our business line people can understand. They're going to want our product because it performs better than the other guys because of what we do. We're going to sell what we do inside the company and out.
And you know, I have to agree with him. If you think IT is like maintenance - to be called when something is broken, then you will be considered a necessary evil. If you get on top of the issues and then start finding out how to proactively make your (internal) customers happy, you'll be viewed as an asset and treated with more respect, not as a drain on the company.