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China Unveils Yet Another Stealth Fighter
An anonymous reader writes "Pictures of a new Chinese stealth fighter prototype started showing up recently on the web. The airplane prototype was photographed at a Shenyang aircraft facility and seems to be a twin-engined lightweight fighter in the F-35 class. US Defense Secretary Leon Panetta is scheduled to visit China this week in the midst of tension regarding territorial disputes in the region."
China Unveils Yet Another Stealth Fighter
Seems they quite get the idea of stealth!
"For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert"
How quaint... Welcome to the 90s, China.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Painting it black, doesn't make it stealthy!
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and seems to be a twin-engined lightweight fighter in the F-35 class.
In other words, overweeight, over budget, under performing, poor range and not quite here yet but will be real soon now we promise unless you want the variant that you actually need in which case it will be here real not quite soon now.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
The layering processing China is using is outdated and inferior to US's radar absorbing layering mesh.
It's technically stealthy, and most radar systems wont detect it, especially ones in many other countries, including Russias. However, US does have radar technology to detect these planes, heck we need it to detect our 20 year old stealth bombers!
Yeah why do they just copy our laws of physics, can't they make their own?!?
I'm assuming this cost them less than half the price it does it build ours. I'd still rather fly in an American made plane over any Chinese knock-off.
Given that we yoinked aiframes, designs, machine tools, and scientists(see 'Project Paperclip') pretty much wholesale from the parts of germany we got to first, we probably shouldn't head for the moral high ground just yet...
They could spend that money on helping the world's poor get some food, healthcare, permanent shelter, et cetera.
I can't think of a better way to get the aforementioned resources than to go in after them heavily armed.
Have gnu, will travel.
I wonder how many jobs a research project like this creates... "Spending money helping the poor" isn't exactly as simple as it seems.
That would be astounding, considering most Chinese aircraft are based on Russian and Ukranian aircraft...
If you are spending a ton of money on something you'll probably never use, and what's more, of no productive use at all, you might as well cut costs by stealing designs of that from the retards who developed it first and spend the savings on something useful. Seriously, when are we going to evolve from that stage where we are still inventing new ways to throw rocks at each other?
The spoils of war from a world war with Germany doesn't quite compare to espionage from a country that you supposedly have peaceful relations with.
Such is the nature of espionage, though. Both sides do it, and react in "outrage" when they catch it happening.
Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
You've tested this I take it? Where can I buy an F-35?
It's not that astounding. Why, when I was volunteering in Africa, I found some Chinese-made RJ-45 plugs that fit directly into my American laptop! Even the Chinese Ethernet switch worked perfectly with it!
On an airplane, I expect many bolts, rivets, and screws will all "fit directly."
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
Because the US, EU, Russia and China will in all probability never go to war with each other.
Alex, "what is proxy wars for fun and profit?"
Would not be surprised to see .cn and .jp going at it in a limited way over those stupid islands in the next month or so. My guess is some amphibious "beach storming" foolishness plus or minus some aerial bombardment to make a point before they kiss and make up diplomatically.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Air_Self-Defense_Force
JASDF has F-15J mitsubishi built interceptors... basically the same as the 30 year old retired US F15 but with a really large spoiler on the back and under chassis neon lighting and a 10 kilowatt stereo system, no wait just kidding about that, its not a honda civic its a mitsubishi, which means they falsify their user survey results, as I recall. The F-2 is basically a modernized super-duper F16, a pretty serious plane, lots of nationalist whining on both sides respectively about the general topic of how they should have bought our modernized super duper F16 instead of building their own vs they wanted to make their very own homemade F16. The JASDF museum collection of F-4s are all older than I am, which is pretty creepy, but I suppose still effective if used properly.
Modern warfare is basically catching the other guy when he screws up, more so than a pure specs game. A .cn stealth fighter vs 2 or 3 F-2 in clear air VFR conditions over the ocean will eat the .cn fighter alive. Even 3 antique F-4 in perfect conditions for the F-4 could have the .cn fighter for dinner if they coordinate perfectly etc. The trick in all warfare is getting your opponent to fight on your terms not theirs.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
All I see is a guy floating 10 feet off the ground.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
Tell that to Petr Ufimtsev.
Nullius in verba
Fighters are designed strategically from the top down. A country says 1) what are it's strategic goals, and 2) what capabilities are we missing to fill those? American strategic goals are long range power projection; with two oceans protecting them and more or less dominance in the western hemisphere, American goals are to spoil the rise of other countries that might threaten it's interests. The F-22 is designed around this in mind; it's designed to penetrate enemy air space and establish air superiority while destroying air defenses, so that more conventional planes and bombers can then act as a force multiplier for ground troops.
China's goals are much closer to home. China seeks to secure it's own mainland (the Chinese coast) and establish dominance over the South China Sea and it's southern neighbor. Thus it's fighters are designed around area denial, primarily to keep the US Navy out of it's terriorial waters. Everything you read about the J-20 says it's not as stealthy as the F-22 and can't seem to manuever as well, but it's mostly designed to be a threat to naval ships and keep them out of Chinese waters. THat's why you see that China has developed now 1) the world's largest attack submarine fleet (although all are Diesel-Electric, not nuclear, so individually not as good as the US or British subs, but there's more of them), 2) one of the most advanced anti-ship missiles every designed that can be launched from a mobile, truck mounted launcher, and now 3) stealth fighters that aren't quite as stealthy as the US ones but stealthy enough for the area denial role.
If we would not waste that much money to kick each others butts, we would have solved all problems on Earth decades ago. However, we rather hate each other, lie to each other, steal from each other, produce films to annoy the other, get annoyed by totally unimportant media production from other people just because we have some problem understanding their culture or giving a damn about it. Well, the list could easily be enlarged, but I think you get the point.
In short: Humans are morons. They suck big time.
Therefore, they will not achieve your space flight goal the next 1 billion years. Nor will they end one of those numerous other problems. Unless, we really stop whining about space travel and how bad we all are, and start fixing it.
For example, when we have an issue, because our economy is not sustainable, then look what you can change instead of pointing finger. If you think we are too violent, try to fix it (BTW selling guns is not going to help). If you find, there is too less dialog with the people int China, Sudan, Libya etc. well try to fix it. When you cannot do it alone, which is most likely the case, then cooperate with other people.
After WWII in Europe the hatred between countries was at an all time high. the whole war was only possible, because other nations haven been presented as evil. Especially Nazi-Germany used that mechanism. To solve that issue, many visiting programs where initiated, so people, especially you people, where able to meet. Nowadays these tensions are much lower to non existent, between let say Germany and France. The problems are still bigger with East-European countries.
So if you are afraid of China: Meet them. Meet the people. And, yes the same applies to Arabian countries.
Right, because technology from 70 YEARS ago is so meaningful today.
Funny you should mention that... Built in 1955, after we snagged a few smaller presses from Germany and the commies got a 30,000 ton press. Continues to operate to the present day, providing precision pressed aerospace components to much of the US aircraft production industry...
True. Most of the weapons in the arsenal probably aren't to be used in actual war, but in the projection of military supremacy. Enemies would think twice if they saw what "awesome firepower" you have (even if most if it is just cardboard cutouts or lame copies).
As for your second question - probably never. If you look throughout human history, it's been basically war after war after war, and most of the research involved in making wars lead to the comforts we enjoy today. Just human nature - someone has a big gun, someone else gets jealous and builds a bigger gun. Just be content in the fact that we've not yet waged any atomic war that wipes out most of humanity.
And it's probably about half as stealthy... or less.
See how those thrusters jut right out the back? That's not stealth. The rest of it might be, sort of.
So from a low resolution picture on the Internet, you can tell that the technology in that demonstration aircraft is stolen from the West? Looking similar is meaningless.
Does it have the F-22's energy absorbing coatings? Probably not.
Does it have the F-22's radar systems? Probably not.
Does it have the F-22's vectored thrust? Hell no.
Can it supercruise? I wouldn't bet on it.
Also, RIAA for technology piracy? You have got to be kidding me. With this kind of technology, governments deal in different terms, like "espionage" and "open warfare."
"Here Lies Philip J. Fry, named for his uncle, to carry on his spirit"
Seriously, what kind of tool mods this fake moralistic crap up?
The kind that has perspective.
We didn't just copy, we straight up took the people and tools necessary to advance our aerospace technology.
Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
Your "laws" are only as good as your ability to enforce them (usually at the end of a sharp stick.)
The Chinese government does this a lot, even though it makes little sense. There have been many advances since the first stealth fighters were designed. Had they started from scratch, they would have had a better product. Same with aircraft carriers. They bought one from that technological power house, Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_aircraft_carrier_Varyag). So many advances in ship design have come and gone between the construction of that ship and now, that it makes little overt sense to try and retrofit it. China has thousands of unemployed engineers who could have done a much better job starting from scratch.
And don't get me started on the WTF(!) of the three gorges dam. Hundreds of small dams along the length of the Yangtze would have been manageable, affordable, allowed precise flood control, generated just as much power and provided significant redundancy. One big dam is just a single point of failure and is asking for trouble.
For a country largely governed by engineers, I would have expected better decisions.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
Still bog standard exhausts on those engines. I'm not convinced till they can show a stealthy exhaust. It's a dead giveaway that the book is all cover, no content.
Such is the nature of espionage, though. Both sides do it, and react in "outrage" when they catch it happening.
That's the part that I find so annoying. If people want to be boy scouts, knock it off with the cloak and dagger and go earn a merit badge or something. If people want to be all cloak and dagger, quit regurgitating your deeply unconvincing lies about what you aren't doing.
I understand the point of the F-22 and F-35 was to keep Lockheed's engineers busy while drone technology was perfected. That's how the defense industry works. Lockheed got the next gen manned fighter program, Boeing got the missile defense and some of the drone work, northrop is getting some of the drone work, that's just how it works.
It still would have made a lot more sense and been far cheaper to have just produced a new upgraded block of F-15's to replace those with too many flight hours and we wouldn't have lost any capabilities, they'd been in service 10 years ago, and probably could have built 3 for the cost of an F-22 or F-35. Not to mention already had the service and support tools in place as probably much of the gear would have remained the same. I'm sure the new F-15's would have been around the $50M a piece range (maybe $60 - 65M in todays dollars), but that's a lot cheaper than the limited number of F-22.
This is what the navy did with the F/A-18 Super Hornet. R&D was about $200M and even came in on time and under budget. It shared a lot of the same support tooling as the older F/A-18 C/D models, which is important on a ship with limited space.
"The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
Technology is technology. You said (and I quote)
"Right, because technology from 70 YEARS ago is so meaningful today."
How is a 5 story tall ultra-high-precision manufacturing doohickey NOT technology?
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
Just human nature - someone has a big gun, someone else gets jealous and builds a bigger gun. Just be content in the fact that we've not yet waged any atomic war that wipes out most of humanity.
Warfare is not human nature. It's the way that our culture has developed. The first archeological evidence of warfare is from 10,000 to 13,000 years ago, long after homo sapiens reached anatomical modernity (which was around 200,000 years ago). And we have archaeological evidence of other cultural activity (such as cooking, religion, music, and burials) that goes back much further, which suggests that it's not merely a case of our not *yet* having found the evidence of earlier warfare. Also, there are human societies that do not wage war.
It's an important distinction because if war truly were human nature it would mean that we will *never* be rid of it, and there would be no point in trying. Whereas cultural features can fade away over time.
There's a very well-argued book on this topic: 'The End of War' by John Horgan.
You never know, lead paint might deflect radar better.
I few years ago I was flying across the U.S. I had managed a good deal on first class tickets. So I was sitting beside someone who ran an electronics company which used contract manufacturers in China. I asked him about piracy of his IP. He said, and with a straight face so well that I think he believed it, that they keep the important stuff segregated, and the assembly distributed among several plants so that the Chinese would not be able to pirate their IP.
WTF? I believe that is what the majority of these jokers who offshore think or think they have successfully led us to believe. But I really believe it is what they think. I have to. Why else would they spend BILLIONS of dollars on patent lawsuits, just so they can have their ideas built in China where everyone except them (it seems), KNOW that the designs will be stolen and copied. These so called leaders of business can't be that stupid can they? After all most have business degrees and MBA's. Do they count so little? Actually I think they aren't so stupid but are cynical pricks who only look out for their own pocket books. Globalization means global for those with the money, and they have the money. It doesn't matter what the condition of your country if you live in a gated community.
Mind you, what does it say about the majority of people who help them to become millionaires, based on what? You'd think we'd learn by now after what we had to do to get Wall Street types from being paid huge bonuses just for showing up... wait, never mind.....
But seriously, why spend all that money on lawsuits for IP when they just have it built in China? It's like pouring water on the fire after the house has burned down. (Unless it's all a pretense?!) Why keep stealth fighters secret when you build most of the parts in China and hire Chinese nationals or ex-nationals without sufficient oversight (given the proven track record of Chinese spies in the defence and nuclear research areas). Actually, I think most members of the government are that stupid and/or naive since their main focus is really on getting re-elected and lining their pockets, and not on what is really happening. After all they don't have to know anything, just hire people who know everything. Isn't that how it works?
The government's talking heads will say that it just 'looks like an F-35' but the parts are different. We know the defence industry gets most of their electronics from China. I know that 1 + 1 = 2. They seem to think we think it adds up to 1.9. When the big hand is on the 12 and the little hand is on the 12, I know what time it is.
And now China is pushing its weight like crazy in the South China Sea. There were anti-Japanese riots closing Japanese factories in China today. They are not a benign factory for the world. They never were.
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
Uh, OK. I'll agree, given that we've seen chimpanzees go to war!
You're looking at something way deeper and more fundamental than human nature. War is simply a manifestation of the competition of life. On some primitive level, even the dumbest forms of life engage in this.
You can't escape the situation. Remember how the winners write history? They also leave more offspring. We are the descendents of creatures who were mostly winners and never complete losers. Our minds are shaped by evolution. Our status as humans does not exempt us from selection, not even today and not ever in the future.
And the F-35 pretty much has to have one engine due to the VTOL requirement. If a single engine VTOL fails you just eject. If a single engine in a twin engine VTOL fails you may not get a chance to eject before the unbalanced thrust causes a catastrophic rotation. You can work around that so a single failure just causes the plane to fall out of the sky (e.g. using fans driven by both engines), but that adds more complexity which is likely to cause more crashes.
I know that people jest about China, but oftentimes they make exactly what the ODM specs out. If they spec cheap crap, they get cheap stuff. If they spec quality, top tier parts, the ship from China drops off tier 1 motors.
Champion generators comes to mind. Yes, their manufacturing is in a factory in a coastal province, but their products tend to be as good as they come, and their service is top notch. They spec decent stuff, the factory returns decent stuff.
Warfare is not human nature. It's the way that our culture has developed
The way our culture developed is part of human nature. It's not like it suddenly came to be what it is. Culture evolves in the same way genome does (in fact, they affect each other). War is just a manifestation of parochial altruism, which is widespread in nature and is not at all unique to homo sapiens.
The first archeological evidence of warfare is from 10,000 to 13,000 years ago, long after homo sapiens reached anatomical modernity (which was around 200,000 years ago).
The problem is that it's kinda hard to get archeological evidence of warfare when war consists of bashing each others' heads with blunt tools. However, we do have good reasons to believe that war long predates anatomical modernity for humans - other great apes also engage in it. Already in that time period you mention - 12,000 years ago - warfare was so widespread that we find numerous evidence of people who died from violence from other humans - up to a half of all of them.
The main reason why early Paleolitic didn't see much warfare in practice was of extremely low population density. When there are more lush lands to spread to, war raids don't have a good ROI, so evolution tends to favor groups that are not overly aggressive. Once we moved on from roaming hunter-gatherer societies to argiculture, warfare started to have a very high ROI (lots of stuff to loot, all in one place). Cultural attitudes towards war follow from that, not cause it.