Chemist Jailed In Russia For Giving Expert Opinion In Court

Just look at those dead, dead eyes. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 09:57 · Score: 2, Funny

Clearly a criminal mastermind. Russia's answer to Walter White.

Re:Just look at those dead, dead eyes. by Jeremiah+Cornelius · 2012-09-22 03:35 · Score: 1

In Soviet Russia, evidence gives YOU!

--
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Re:Just look at those dead, dead eyes. by memnock · 2012-09-22 07:25 · Score: 1

This article mentions that other experts are arrested under similar circumstance, i.e. giving expert testimony that opposes prosecutors. Do prosecutors have experts arrested when the experts give testimony that doesn't completely support the prosecutors case as well? This kind of corruption is astounding.
In this case, it seems like the prosecutors made this woman an accessory after the fact. This particular example defies logic. How does a person become an accessory to an alleged crime when that person is only present in the trial and had no other knowledge of the alleged crime before the trial?
It would seem that Russia's legal system needs some major reforms. At least some kind of rule or law that keeps expert witnesses from being arrested for simply being a witness. What's the point of a trial if there is no testimony? Of course, the general state of corruption is famous there as well, so I guess reforms are needed in all aspects of government.

--
"To stop the terrorists."

Same in the US by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 09:57 · Score: 2, Interesting

Wow, sort of like the private equity firms that support Romney getting investigated and subpoena'd while MF Global and John Corzine (an Obama supporter) go free. As the government behemoth grows, so does the need to appease the beast lest you suffer the wraith of those in power. Sad.

Re:Same in the US by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 10:06 · Score: 5, Interesting

I was about to reply to this story when I read your response. I tend to agree that the New Russia is becoming like the New Amerika. Can we bring back the guillotine and have a simultaneous American-Russian Revolution in which the people of both countries rise up against their own Ruling Class or Bourgoise. Nothing like blood in the streets to keep the bureaucrats in check.
Captcha: 'disdain' - poetic and timely
Re:Same in the US by Virtucon · 2012-09-21 10:07 · Score: 4, Interesting

There has been a long standing belief that them that has the gold makes the rules. In our country justice is supposed to be blind but as we hear more and more those without resources caught in the wheels of justice often get turned into gear lube. While I'm concerned with it, I don't think ultimately that our system of justice is flawed completely however your statement would be on the investigative/prosecutorial side of things, not in terms of the court. In the pussy riot brewhaha, the judge should have thrown the case out, but it would appear that the judge is also serving the guy in office rather than the business of the people. In this case I can't see how a judge would keep this scientist in detention for just an opinion based on documented testing results, that is unless she did it for somebody else. I guess there's just more to this than we're being told, kind of like "Fast and Furious?"

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Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
Re:Same in the US by mrbester · 2012-09-21 10:32 · Score: 2

The word you're looking for is "bourgeois"

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"Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
Re:Same in the US by wierd_w · 2012-09-21 10:40 · Score: 5, Interesting

IIRC, the bourgoise were the 1% of their age.
BOTH obama and romney, and all associated tools are neatly tucked into that 1% demographic.
What the french did was repeatedly eliminate the 1%-ers. (Remove the top 1%... check to see if the problem resolved.. remove the next top 1%... rinse, repeat until problem solved, or population == 0)
We call them "the 1%", they called them "bourgoise". Same difference. Its the people with all the money, influcence, connections, and power to be assfucks.
Note: the french had to do it... REPEATEDLY.
It isn't JUST the 1%-ers. It's also the people who would seek to replace them straight up, and the people who readily and willingly enable them to be the 1%.
In the US, that would be an *alarming* number of people guillotined before the problem would be resolved.
The problem is far more systemic than you would care to realize.
Re:Same in the US by tqk · 2012-09-21 11:25 · Score: 4, Informative

IIRC, the bourgoise were the 1% of their age.
You don't. From "dict bourgeois": A size of type between long primer and brevier. Also: A man of middle rank in society; one of the shopkeeping class.

--
"Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
Re:Same in the US by phantomfive · 2012-09-21 11:27 · Score: 1

That didn't actually work out for the French, and the peasantry got so sick of revolutionaries they stopped following them (the revolutionaries weren't all that great, really). They finally got democracy, but that more or less cemented the elites into power. You think Hollande is a socialist who will re-distribute his wealth to the impoverished unemployed? No, he will definitely keep his own wealth.

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"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Re:Same in the US by wierd_w · 2012-09-21 11:42 · Score: 5, Informative

Actually, no..
While that *is* what the word means, and is applied correctly, remember that pre-revolution france was a fuedal society. The number of non-aristocrats that owned their own lands and homes was minimal.
It's the same thing as with the 1% of today. A tiny fraction of the population owned the vast majority of land, wealth, resources, and power.
The revolution started with the aristocrats, the "clearly" 1%-ers. This was not sufficient, as the bourgioes readily replaced them in tyrrany.
The problem resolved when the aristocrats, *and* the supporting class (privilaged private land owners) were eliminated. After that, the peasant class could be represented in government.
Eg, what I am getting at here, is that caiming "no, they were the middle class, not the 1%!" Is a nonsequitor, when the aristocrats represented .01%, and the bourgeois represented .99%, while the serf class represented 99%. The false comparison to today's "middle class" being a significantly larger portion of the population does not negate the assertion that the historic bourgeois were the 1%ers.
Re:Same in the US by wierd_w · 2012-09-21 12:04 · Score: 4, Insightful

No it didn't. They basically killed off everyone that had the connections to establish a cogent civil order, because civil order cannot meet the demands of mob rule, which is what the revolution became.
It indeed did end when the peasant classes refused to listen to the revolutionaries, as they woke up to the festering hell they had created, and the endless witch-hunts the revolutionaries were inciting in trying to hypocritically enforce their own wills over others, and branding any resistance "tyrany". In the end it wasn't at all about equal treatment in the courts, equal opportunities to own land, etc.. it was about vying groups of revolutionaries denouncing each other, and killing each others' supporters until the population basically just ignored them, and went about living.
In many respects, napolean's conquest actually helped bring order to this torn up france, and fostered reconstruction. The vacuums in local politics enabled the grassroots democracy that slowly sprang up however.
I agree though. The revolutionaries had gold on the brain. Not philosophy, nor intents on equality.
Re:Same in the US by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 12:17 · Score: 1

From Wikipedia

In contemporary academic theories, the term bourgeoisie usually refers to the ruling class in capitalist societies
Re:Same in the US by cheesybagel · 2012-09-21 12:35 · Score: 2

Aristocrats also did not traditionally pay taxes in feudal systems.
Re:Same in the US by cheesybagel · 2012-09-21 12:38 · Score: 2

Actually the problems started because the price of bread rose to a point most people were unable to buy food to survive. This was due to a worse than usual crop compounded by wheat price manipulation by middlemen refusing to releases stocks in order for the price of the produce to rise further. The government refused to do anything about it and the masses revolted.
Re:Same in the US by wierd_w · 2012-09-21 13:03 · Score: 1

If you think 600 is a reasonable estimate of the number that would need to be executed, you are sadly mistaken.
Try closer to 100 million.
It isn't just the 1%ers. It is also the people who would replce them outright, *AND* the people that actively and willingly support them. Eg, the people that vote for democrats because of wellfare and medicare, and the people who vote for republicans because jesus says to, and because republicans give them tax breaks.
All that would be left over would be the people that think revolution is dumb, that politics are dumb, and who are dirt ass broke.
That's what happened to france. They didn't call it "the troubles" for nothing.
Re:Same in the US by TheRealMindChild · 2012-09-21 13:09 · Score: 1

What it really comes down to is this... Money buys anything. Your friends, leaders, family CAN be bought at the right price. That is the nature of money. That is the nature of humans. You can have all of the ideals in the world, but even God needs money to do anything. Ideologies are nice, but there is always an asshole to exploit the system. You can never separate money from power because one guarantees another. Redistributing the wealth only amounts to those that would't have the money get taken by those that would have the money. The only way to beat the beast is to take away their teeth, but I honestly don't know of a good solution

--

"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
Re:Same in the US by wierd_w · 2012-09-21 13:14 · Score: 1

Exactly. At the end of the process, there will either be 0 people, or the people that own absolutely nothing. (The 100% that owns nothing, and has no power at all.)
My post was not an advocation, but rather a recrimination. The process used by the french does, and DID, kill relentlessly. It only ended when the people refused to continue the process.
The results were not pretty: a france heavily depopulated. Widows and orphans everywhere. Famine, and civil unrest. Crime was rampant.
They called it "the troubles" for a reason.
I don't have a solution to the problems with the 1%ers. I was merely pointing out what the french solution actually was, and was not in any way advocating it.
Re:Same in the US by artor3 · 2012-09-21 13:23 · Score: 2

They didn't call it "the troubles" at all. You're thinking of Ireland, or maybe Russia.
Re:Same in the US by wierd_w · 2012-09-21 13:30 · Score: 2

I am sorry if it confused you, but I was in no way supporting "french revolutionary" tactics. The only thing they do is unravel a social order, and kill relentlessly. The point I was trying to make was that enacting such a policy in the USA would result in even *more* bloodhsed than the french revolution had, because more people are complicit in the rule of the 1%. It isn't just the ceo of monsanto. It's your grandma too.
I agree with you though. Anyone supporting THAT kind of revolution, given the historical precident, is either HORRIBLY ignorant and misinformed, or outright stupid.
Re:Same in the US by wierd_w · 2012-09-21 13:42 · Score: 1

Meh, you may be right. "The Troubles" (proper noun) is relating to the Irish, and I admit that this was a misappropriation. However, nearly every text relating to the french revolution refer to the situation as "the troubles of France". (Object of preposition)
Its an easy mistake to make. It doesn't detract from the gruesome state of affairs prsent during that period.
Re:Same in the US by Virtucon · 2012-09-21 13:45 · Score: 1

But can't the beast buy new teeth if it has money?

--
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
Re:Same in the US by khallow · 2012-09-21 14:00 · Score: 2

What the french did was repeatedly eliminate the 1%-ers.

Not at all. I doubt most of the people killed were 1% of anything. IMHO, the primary purposes of mass executions like this is as a display of power and removal of rivals, real or potential. Targeting particular economic or social classes, while it occurred on occasion, was secondary.
Re:Same in the US by khallow · 2012-09-21 14:05 · Score: 3, Insightful

Its a perfect formula to accomplish nothing
It's a formula for killing a lot of people.
Re:Same in the US by fredgiblet · 2012-09-21 14:09 · Score: 1

Not exactly teeth but http://geek-news.mtv.com/2012/09/14/bald-eagle-3d-printed-beak/
Re:Same in the US by dryeo · 2012-09-21 14:24 · Score: 2

Of course they did, just not with money but service, much the same as the peasants.
The peasant worked a day a week in the lords fields, the lord served time in his lords army.
The only ones who didn't pay taxes were the top of the feudal hierarchy, Kings and autonomous Dukes and such. The Church and the international corporations (OK, they weren't actually incorporated) such as the Knights Templar.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
Re:Same in the US by Romwell · 2012-09-21 14:42 · Score: 1

Can we bring back the guillotine and
There's a Russian social news website called D3 that I frequent, and they even have a special member there to express precisely this sentiment.
Well, rather, he've been saying it for so long (modulo guillotine/firing squad substition), that people just refer to it as experov's Method when news like this get posted there. It's mildly surprising to see how similar the thinking is on both sides of the pond.
The counter-argument, of course, is that you don't know who will be running the guillotine - and likely, the same people will - and your head will roll first. History has many examples, but, specifically, the New Russia's government apparatus is full of the Soviet cadre - Comrade Putin of KGB being the most visible example.
Re:Same in the US by ravenshrike · 2012-09-21 19:11 · Score: 1

Sorry no, with the amount of guns in the hands of the Fuck Off and Die types in the US, your socialist revolution would be strangled in the crib. As it should be.
Re:Same in the US by MickLinux · 2012-09-21 23:51 · Score: 1

My proposed solution is that we walk through this mess, with as much prayer and dignity and holiness as possible.
I *DON'T* see any other way out or through, that is not pointlessly and stupidly violent. I don't care if you name the French revolution, or the Russian, or the Cuban, or the Chinese, or the Zimbabwe, or the Zaire revolution. EVERY SINGLE ONE was horribly stupid and violent.
That said, I had an uncle criticise us stupid Americans who empower our own destroyers. He said we could vote with our feet. I shot down that statement by pointing out that (1) go where? Bernanke has worldwide power. (2) go where? Countries don't let in poor immigrants, and poor illegal immigrants get preyed upon [I gave specifics]. (3) Move my bank funds where? I have worked for twenty years, usually producing in excess of a million dollars for my employers, and have *never* been paid more than the minimum cost of living. I live in a trailer park, no alcohol, no drugs, no other expensive habits [I do have a family]. I am paid the wages of a slave: room, board, basic medical care, and nothing else. (4) Vote how? Both parties have the preliminary elections locked down -- run the Romney quote of "the Party will not allow Paul to win the nomination."
Because of this, I do not accept responsibility for this. This is the extreme greed of the 1% for the produce, wealth, and lives of the other 99%. But, the Bible points out "though they go hand in hand, they shall not succeed."
Therefore, I say, let us simply pray to God, let our withheld wages cry out to him, and let it come before His ears.
The fault of the Inquisition was the same as the fault of the Jihadists: if you believe that God is all powerful, and a good God, then you don't have to do evil in the name of good. He can handle it. And He will. And it doesn't take us to arrange any meeting: he's on the job, on the spot.

--
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
Re:Same in the US by TheGratefulNet · 2012-09-22 00:50 · Score: 1

yeah, the 'praying class' REALLY has shown us, uhh, the light. sure have! god men have never steered us wrong. we can trust those guys (no girls, though; we know jesus really hates women).
anytime someone suggests 'prayer' I'd like to suggest you actually DO something or just quit with the "the power of hope!" bullshit.
ie, YOU ARE NOT HELPING with your bronze age superstition.
you really are not helping. and worse, you seem to think you are!

--

--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Re:Same in the US by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-22 01:23 · Score: 1

What it really comes down to is this... Money buys anything. Your friends, leaders, family CAN be bought at the right price. That is the nature of money. That is the nature of humans.
No, there are a lot of people that worships money before anything else, those can be bought. Those people usually become wealthy and powerful.
Some people only want to enjoy life, good luck trying to buy them, on the other hand you really have no reason to.

Had it coming. by Roobles · 2012-09-21 10:00 · Score: 5, Funny

Well, from the looks of the article, her testimone prevented someone from facing jail time. And clearly someone needed to be jailed. A simple and obvious solution, if you ask me. </sarcasm>

Re:Had it coming. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 10:05 · Score: 5, Funny

It is the law of conservation of happiness: happiness cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred from one person to another. It is not a physical law, but a real Russian law. After all, why do you think Putin is always so cheerful? Shooting tigers, wrestling bears, skydiving, etc.?
Re:Had it coming. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 10:32 · Score: 2, Informative

It happens enough in the US that prosecutors are willing to do unethical and sometimes illegal things to get their conviction.
Re:Had it coming. by Cheerio+Boy · 2012-09-21 11:38 · Score: 1

It happens enough in the US that prosecutors are willing to do unethical and sometimes illegal things to get their conviction.
Sad but all too true.

(Posting to remove mis-mod.)

--

"Bah!" - Dogbert
Re:Had it coming. by Virtucon · 2012-09-21 12:45 · Score: 3, Funny

So what you're saying is that Putin is a giant Incubus, sucking all the happiness out of Russia?

--
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
Re:Had it coming. by TheRealMindChild · 2012-09-21 13:13 · Score: 1

You jest, but speculate with me. I thought of the best way to spend a wish, and at first I thought "Everyone would live a long, happy life". But, in terms of progress, this is the worst wish anyone could have. People would die happy starving to death. People would be happy letting pedophiles live out their psychosis. The odds of what makes people happy is so dynamic, that you couldn't have a world of everyone getting along without parish

--

"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
Re:Had it coming. by ultranova · 2012-09-22 23:22 · Score: 1

You jest, but speculate with me. I thought of the best way to spend a wish, and at first I thought "Everyone would live a long, happy life". But, in terms of progress, this is the worst wish anyone could have.

Sometimes philosophy lets us convince ourselves of really stupid shit. Let's indeed speculate and examine your conclusions.

People would die happy starving to death.

No, because then their lives would be cut short by starvation and thus not be long.

People would be happy letting pedophiles live out their psychosis.

But doing so with real children would likely make the children unhappy - that is, after all, why said practice is frowned upon - so your wish would logically lead to either invention of sex-bots, or simply legalizing lolicon (where it's currently banned). Or perhaps in the explosion of lucid-dreaming skills.

The odds of what makes people happy is so dynamic, that you couldn't have a world of everyone getting along without parish

Not really. Some people have mental disorders and must always have their way or control others. Healthy people don't get unhappy because they failed to get something they wanted - say, a sports car, a horse, a cute blond in the bar - but will simply say "oh well" and get on with their life. So, your wish would actually result in a drastic decrease in mental illnesses - and physical ones too, of course.

--
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

Coming soon to a US courtroom near you. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 10:01 · Score: 4, Funny

Outlaw science!

Re:Coming soon to a US courtroom near you. by History's+Coming+To · 2012-09-22 00:36 · Score: 1

A similar thing has already happened in the UK. Professor David Nutt was an advisor to the government on drugs policy. He criticised the reclassification of cannabis from class C (which includes prescription drugs) to class B (a more strictly controlled class with harsher penalties for possession and dealing). The government didn't like his views, so he was fired.

Just to reiterate: government hires acknowledged expert on drugs. Expert gives advise as requested. Advice does not match government policy, so the expert is fired.

--
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There has to be more? by Virtucon · 2012-09-21 10:02 · Score: 4, Insightful

I would think that maybe this is not related to that particular case or is it? I realize with the whole Pussy Riot thing was blown way out of proportion but I would think that this sends a chill down the backs of every citizen in Russia today if it's true.

I didn't see in the article what the formal charges were, just "charged with complicity" socould she have helped some other organization and also, why didn't the prosecutors corroborate or refute the evidence she presented with another analysis of the poppy materials?

--
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"

Re:There has to be more? by Muros · 2012-09-21 10:12 · Score: 4, Insightful

Why refute evidence when you can just arrest anyone who contradicts you with facts?
Re:There has to be more? by Hatta · 2012-09-21 10:34 · Score: 1, Offtopic

Why does there have to be more? Even here in The Land of the Free (TM), we have people serving decades in prison for nothing more than growing plants. Don't underestimate the capability of any government for wanton brutality.

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Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Re:There has to be more? by ACS+Solver · 2012-09-21 11:15 · Score: 5, Informative

It is related to the case. I'm reading Russian sources, but the English TFA says as much.
Basically, in 2010, the Russian FSKN (a law enforcement organization specifically fighting drugs) initiated criminal proceedings on allegation of drug contraband in poppy seeds. FSKN experts concluded that the shipment does constitute a shipment of drugs. Zelenina, as an expert witness, said that the particular shipment did not have intentionally added narcotic compounds, and that small amounts of those substances were present because it is in fact impossible to eliminate them entirely from poppy seeds. And now she's jailed on charges of being party to a contraband shipment of drugs. Interestingly, I read that a new legal standard adopted in Russia in 2005 specifies that poppy seeds must be completely free of these narcotic traces, which is a technological impossibility and thus poppy is now only imported and not grown.
Fun thing is that there's another section in Russian law that allows people to be charged for making deliberately false expert witness statements - but she was not charged with that. The punishment for false statements is considerably lower than for drug contraband.
This is actually old news (she's been in jail for a month) but is cropping up again because her appeal is being heard.
Re:There has to be more? by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-09-21 11:15 · Score: 1

It doesn't have anything to do with the Pussy Riot case, other than the (accidental) fact that she ended up in the same cell with Tolokonnikova. The case she was an expert witness was a completely different one, per TFA:

In September 2011, the defence attorneys of Sergey Shilov, a Russian businessman under investigation by the Russian Federal Drug Control Service (FDCS), asked her to provide an expert opinion on the amount of opiates that could possibly be extracted from 42 metric tonnes of food poppy seeds that Shilov had imported from Spain in 2010. ... In her expert report, Zelenina stated that it is technically impossible to fully eliminate such impurities from poppy seeds, as Russian laws require. She also wrote that the seized seeds did not contain any deliberately added narcotic compounds
Re:There has to be more? by Virtucon · 2012-09-21 12:38 · Score: 1

Okay, that explains a lot. So, I guess we'll have to wait for to see what evidence is presented at the trial but I would think that if this is not thrown out by the court, it would definitely be a set back for progress in Russia. I guess the one take away in all of this is not to trust any government nor its legal system because a prosecutor can ruin your life with little evidence or trumped up charges.

--
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
Re:There has to be more? by Lotana · 2012-09-21 21:23 · Score: 3, Informative

What are you talking about? At the moment NASA is sending their astronauts to ISS on Russian-built Souz spacecraft, while lacking a man-rated craft of their own! The Soviet Union achieved so many firsts that USA panicked: That resulted in the Apollo program that finally secured their lead. Even after Apollo, Russia still achieved a first: First space station.
For all the flaws of Russia, their space program is something remarkable. Even when it went through all the shit and chaos of Perestroika and corruption afterwards, they just kept going. We shall see how long NASA will last with all the cuts coming.
Re:There has to be more? by shentino · 2012-09-22 07:14 · Score: 1

It would be old news here in the US as we call that perjury.
The news bit is because his arrest was motivated because the government didn't like what he said.

okay lemme get this straight by RobertLTux · 2012-09-21 10:11 · Score: 3, Informative

She did LAB TESTS on i would assume a bunch of semi random samples of a shipment of Poppy Seeds and concluded that THIS SHIPMENT was so low in Drugs that this was not a DRUG shipment but a FOOD shipment. So the response of The Government is to JAIL HER for being "in on it". I would assume she had things like lab reports and such which were submitted as evidence and that Somebody Else has not done the same work and found different results (her "random" samples just "happened" to be Clean).

Comrades Put down the Vodka for a moment and THINK.

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Re:okay lemme get this straight by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 10:13 · Score: 3, Funny

Man, fuck you, I think best with a bottle of Vodka in my hands.
Re:okay lemme get this straight by msauve · 2012-09-21 10:35 · Score: 2

Because, after all, it's profitable to import 42 metric tonnes of poppy seeds, at a market price of around $190,000 ($4600/tonne), in order to extract 390 grams of morphine (based on the 0.00069% content according to the article). Based only on raw material cost, that's around close to $500/gram.

A quick Google says a 30 mg dose has a street price of $10, so that 390 grams has a street price of ~$130,000. Maybe the additional codeine content would bring it past break-even, if processing/packaging/distribution were free.

Sell at a loss, and make it up on volume, I guess.

--
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Re:okay lemme get this straight by Hatta · 2012-09-21 10:37 · Score: 4, Insightful

Comrades Put down the Vodka for a moment and THINK.
If anyone involved with drug prohibition actually thought, there would be no drug prohibition.

--
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Re:okay lemme get this straight by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 10:41 · Score: 1

I am sure police will dig up a proper sample which their experts will identify to containing overall morphine and codeine content of 69% and 49% respectively.
Re:okay lemme get this straight by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 10:50 · Score: 1

Depending on how the analysis is done, that's a sadly valid possible outcome.
Re:okay lemme get this straight by circletimessquare · 2012-09-21 10:53 · Score: 5, Interesting

it's russian justice. which is an oxymoron
a court room merely provides the veneer of impartiality. the state controls the judges, the state controls everything. whatever verdict the state wants, it gets. actual justice is not the point. power and control is
russia still believes in the strong man mentality. one strong dude has to control all. this is viewed as strength. when of course, this is colossal weakness. many russians understand this. but if they speak out about it, they get jailed, censured, fired or otherwise ostracized. it's sad
as long as there is a large pool of russians that respect and believe in the idea of the big strong man, russia is doomed to mediocrity and, paradoxically, weakness

--
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Re:okay lemme get this straight by tftp · 2012-09-21 10:54 · Score: 1

Because, after all, it's profitable to import 42 metric tonnes of poppy seeds, at a market price of around $190,000 ($4600/tonne [beckleyfoundation.org]), in order to extract 390 grams of morphine (based on the 0.00069% content according to the article).
The seeds will not be destroyed. You separate the seeds and sell them. Whatever remains you put into processing and additionally get whatever you can.
Of course this process makes no profit if the drug content is so low. IMO, the prosecutor is just throwing the book at the uncooperative expert. Let's wait three days and see what the other judge says. Even in Russia you cannot jail someone with no excuse - however flimsy and laughable it may be. But once the bad excuse is out it can be attacked. If there is no political will to imprison her (and I don't see any here) she will walk, and may even be a bit richer in the end.
Re:okay lemme get this straight by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-09-21 11:17 · Score: 1

many russians understand this. but if they speak out about it, they get jailed, censured, fired or otherwise ostracized. it's sad
A slight correction. You can speak out about it, just not loud enough. Generally speaking, the higher you distribute the message, the more likely you are to get into trouble. Ranting here on Slashdot, like I do, is not their concern. Publishing it in newspapers is.
Re:okay lemme get this straight by wierd_w · 2012-09-21 11:20 · Score: 1

Wow.. magic poppyseeds to have values like that!
% by weight values like that means that the seeds themselves have negative mass! How else do you explain the drug content of the seeds being in excess of 118%!?
Somebody tell nasa! Its just what they need to build an alcubierre warp drive!
Re:okay lemme get this straight by msauve · 2012-09-21 11:29 · Score: 1

"The seeds will not be destroyed."

What makes you say that? Obviously, the original source did as economical separation as possible, probably using screens before shipment. So, the opiate bearing material is likely "fines," not easily separated.

I used simple prices/costs, ignoring any processing/packaging/distribution, and 100% extraction. If the value of the seeds is to be recovered, that can only increase the processing cost - assuming there is any reasonable method of separation at all. Additionally, 100% extraction is unlikely at any reasonable cost, so that reduces the value of any extraction.

I have to think that if importing opiates is the goal, it would be cheaper and more profitable to simply sneak a kg of finished product across the border.

--
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Re:okay lemme get this straight by drinkypoo · 2012-09-21 11:50 · Score: 1

If anyone involved with drug prohibition actually thought, there would be no drug prohibition.
That is the most naive thing I've seen all day. They have thought it through very carefully, and they sleep on a gigantic pile of money. Some of them, of course, have just been stupid. The majority are corrupt.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:okay lemme get this straight by drinkypoo · 2012-09-21 11:53 · Score: 1

If the value of the seeds is to be recovered, that can only increase the processing cost - assuming there is any reasonable method of separation at all.
If there is no reasonable method of separation then there is no point to doing anything, because they cannot cost-effectively chemically process the entire batch of seeds. They must separate the parts which bear the active ingredient if there is to be any point.

I have to think that if importing opiates is the goal, it would be cheaper and more profitable to simply sneak a kg of finished product across the border.
At these concentrations there is probably nothing whatsoever that you could do to get the opiates out in a cost-effective fashion, which was the entire point of the testimony.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:okay lemme get this straight by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 13:26 · Score: 1

It's you! The hero of Kvetch!
Re:okay lemme get this straight by circletimessquare · 2012-09-21 14:11 · Score: 1

kind of like china
only whack them when they get big enough
all hail soft autocracy

--
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Re:okay lemme get this straight by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-09-21 14:18 · Score: 2

It's not just soft, it's also distributed. It's not like Putin is personally running around ordering to jail dissidents. If it's some kind of local newspaper, then it'll be the local government using whatever means are at their disposal to suppress it, without any explicit orders or even vaguely stated suggestions from the center. It's surprisingly efficient, because reaction time is much faster that way, and it limits accountability of higher-ups if things should go wrong.
In fact, most of Putin's present personality cult originates that way - he doesn't really cultivate it, he just lets the boot-lickers in places do it for him, without stopping them. Which they do because they expect him to want them to do it by default.
Re:okay lemme get this straight by circletimessquare · 2012-09-21 14:36 · Score: 1

will it ever change?

--
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Re:okay lemme get this straight by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-09-21 14:47 · Score: 1

Everything changes eventually. You mean, will it change for better? Probably... about the only thing worse than the present regime in Russia would be the rise of the local Nazis. Which is still possible, but, in my opinion, not very likely. More likely we'll see at least another decade of the present arrangement, perhaps with alternating leaders but the same overall direction. Given that, in the recent presidential elections, half of the people have voted for the guy again - and even most opposition observers had to concede that he won fair and square - there's still a lot of momentum remaining.
That said, Russia is not Afghanistan. It has its own considerable history of liberal and democratic thought, and even a little bit of putting that into practice with some nice results. It's still a part of Western civilization, even if somewhat distinct historically, and so it has most of the same "cultural DNA" that can make for a viable civilized democracy with a respect for human rights and other important bits. It'll get there eventually.
Re:okay lemme get this straight by circletimessquare · 2012-09-21 15:41 · Score: 1

where is peter the great when we need him!

--
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Re:okay lemme get this straight by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-09-21 16:15 · Score: 1

Peter was a great modernizer, but he wasn't a liberal, not even close - in fact, the country under him was more autocratic than under his predecessor.
Anyway, today that's not the problem. Economics- and culture-wise the country is modern enough. It's politics that needs to catch on.
Re:okay lemme get this straight by circletimessquare · 2012-09-21 17:04 · Score: 1

a toast to the future of a russia that shakes off its strong men affections, and a hope that it is as painless as possible

--
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Re:okay lemme get this straight by Alex+Belits · 2012-09-21 18:59 · Score: 1

about the only thing worse than the present regime in Russia would be the rise of the local Nazis.
There are plenty of things that are worse. Looting and enslavement like one that happened in 90's with approval of Yeltsin and his libertarian friends again, for example.

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Re:okay lemme get this straight by Alex+Belits · 2012-09-21 19:44 · Score: 2

Yeltsin and his government was pretty much the purest form of Libertarian government that existed anywhere at any point in 20th century. It had a distinction of not having pre-existing local Social Conservatives to guide them into becoming an unwitting front for those Conservatives.
Of course, the results are exactly what one would expect from Libertarians -- government being replaced by "business owners" as the most politically powerful entity in the country.

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Re:okay lemme get this straight by TheGratefulNet · 2012-09-22 01:00 · Score: 1

hint: its about money (ie, what they can take from the population) and power. its NOT about 'right and wrong'.
therefore, it won't change until the money that is stolen from people (immorally) stops.
I don't expect to see a reversal any time soon, of course.
even when the 'old guys' die out, the morality won't be an excuse but the money will.
and its also racial. you can 'punish' lots of people you hate by arresting them on 'morality' issues. a LOT of sadistic LEOs and their ilk thrive on this. THRIVE on it. they won't give this power up. not willingly.

--

--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Re:okay lemme get this straight by shentino · 2012-09-22 07:18 · Score: 1

Everyone can think about it all they want, but only the party gets to do anything, and they want what they want and screw the voice of the people.
Re:okay lemme get this straight by circletimessquare · 2012-09-22 08:55 · Score: 1

Dude, I am disgusted by libertarians, but you're an idiot

--
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Re:okay lemme get this straight by Thor+Ablestar · 2012-09-22 17:20 · Score: 1

The poppy seed contain negligible amount of morphine that (according to her expert opinion) is impossible to extract, but it's still there. But for any nonzero concentration of morphine there is a size of poppy seed lot that contains a punishable dose. So the importer has imported a punishable dose. And if he didn't imported it yet, FSKN should just wait for the (concentration * total weight) to exceed legal limit. Moreover, FSKN can combine imports from all poppy seed importers as an organized criminal group the expert being the organizer. Kafka rotates in his coffin.
I am Russian and I have read an original Russian article.
Re:okay lemme get this straight by Alex+Belits · 2012-09-23 13:52 · Score: 1

Said Anonymous Coward whose only information about Soviet Union comes from US Cold War propaganda.

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Re:okay lemme get this straight by Alex+Belits · 2012-09-23 13:53 · Score: 1

What the Hell do you know about Russian politicians in 1990's?

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.

I thought this ended with the cold war... by wierd_w · 2012-09-21 10:13 · Score: 3, Insightful

Seriously. The very language of the charge spells out the kind of justice that is being dished out: we say you are guilty, and the court is a formality. Don't question the ruling party comrade.

If her report showed that the defendant couldn't possibly have been importing poppyseeds for the manufacture of narcotics, due to the almost undetectable levels of the required compounds in the imported samples, then he should have been released, and charges dropped.

Claiming that she is complicit with drug smuggling means they found the defendant in the case she testifed for to be guilty anyway. Otherwise, how could she have been complicit in his "criminal importation operation"?

Seriously-- I thought this kind of shit ended with the cold war, and that Russia was trying its best to become a respectable member of the global community. Seriously... this shit is out of control.

Re:I thought this ended with the cold war... by Hatta · 2012-09-21 10:43 · Score: 2

Seriously-- I thought this kind of shit ended with the cold war, and that Russia was trying its best to become a respectable member of the global community.
You forgot, we replaced the cold war with the drug war. There's nothing respectable about any country involved with either.

--
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Re:I thought this ended with the cold war... by Jimbookis · 2012-09-21 10:47 · Score: 1

I think for centuries now the ruling class (from the czars 'til today) modus operandi in Russia is "We're not happy until you're not happy."
Re:I thought this ended with the cold war... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 10:51 · Score: 1

Seriously-- I thought this kind of shit ended with the cold war, and that Russia was trying its best to become a respectable member of the global community.

What rock have you been living under? It's been obvious for a long time that Putin's Russia is a mafiocracy.
Re:I thought this ended with the cold war... by wierd_w · 2012-09-21 12:15 · Score: 2

At least in the US, the defence doesn't go to jail for offering a strong defense. The defense is just impotent in the face of corruption.
Granted, that isn't a conslation to brag about. Being the most litigious and absurd country on the planet (with nukes) is about the only thing the US is "Number One!" At, other than explorting clearly stupid and one sided legislation worldwide under threat of invasion.
Really, I don't claim my country is paradise. It clearly isn't. But at least there is the fiction of a fair trial here. The russians don't even get that, it seems.
Re:I thought this ended with the cold war... by Schmorgluck · 2012-09-21 13:00 · Score: 1

Russia's power structure has only marginally evolved since the nineteenth century. Even the USSR wasn't very different from the Czar regime.

--
There's nothing like $HOME
Re:I thought this ended with the cold war... by aralin · 2012-09-22 08:12 · Score: 1

It's propaganda you react to. US state dept pays for a lot of this: "Look they are bad guys" journalism. It is a continuation of the narrative that Americans are the good guys and whatever they do is obviously right.
But let me ask you this. You know there is corruption in US courts, you know that people are being locked without trial (Guantanamo and other places), tortured, the constitution is being totally abused, redistricting done to manipulate elections, people are locked on possession of weed for mandatory year long sentences, because police is to lazy to collect evidence for the real crime they want to charge them with.... So knowing all this... why isn't that news to be outraged about?
Because it is not news anymore, it is so commonplace. In Russia, these lone cases are still worth reporting as news.

--
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.

Re:offtopic but by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 10:20 · Score: 1, Funny

I saw Pussy Riot last night.

Last time I change cat litter brands.

but it vass NOT ze Right Answer by swschrad · 2012-09-21 10:24 · Score: 1

und zo Comrade Chemist must go to re-education. how can you not see ze logick here? or, iss zere, perhaps, another explaination? ....

--
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?

Re:but it vass NOT ze Right Answer by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 10:27 · Score: 1

She's Russian, not German.
Re:but it vass NOT ze Right Answer by Nethemas+the+Great · 2012-09-21 10:37 · Score: 2, Informative

GP's probably American cut him some slack. At least he got the hemisphere right...

--
Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
Re:but it vass NOT ze Right Answer by wierd_w · 2012-09-21 10:53 · Score: 1

Nicht comrade. Even we american imprialist dogs can get correct inflection!
It is clear to all that lady scientist was using contraband narcotics while at work, and not wholesome Russian wodka, as is proper.
How else could she have made such blaring error as to contradict russian prosecutor?
Re:but it vass NOT ze Right Answer by hazah · 2012-09-21 15:55 · Score: 1

Wrong. There's no 'w' in Vodka. There is no equivalent sound in Russian at all. Best you could do is ue (oo-eh) which still isn't a 'w'. Most russian would actually pronounce 'while' as 'vile', 'was' as 'vas' etc... So while an American emperialist could perhaps get correct inflections, you haven't. Not to mention the nonsensical 'lady scientist' bit... I don't even know why you'd think a Russian would say that.
Re:but it vass NOT ze Right Answer by ravenshrike · 2012-09-21 19:16 · Score: 1

Apparently one of the Stasi is posting on slashdot.

That's nothing by SuperKendall · 2012-09-21 10:27 · Score: 1, Troll

Here in America we jail people just for making bad movies!

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:That's nothing by Spy+Handler · 2012-09-21 10:35 · Score: 4, Funny

George Lucas is in jail??!
Re:That's nothing by surmak · 2012-09-21 14:13 · Score: 2

Here in America we jail people just for making bad movies!
The fact that we don't jail people for making bad movies is the reason that there have been riots around the Muslim world the past week. Many of the people in those countries just cannot comprehend that the government can do nothing about the film other then issuing statements.
Re:That's nothing by SuperKendall · 2012-09-21 16:52 · Score: 2

The fact that we don't jail people for making bad movies is the reason that there have been riots around the Muslim world the past week.
We don't? That very filmmaker was arrested at midnight and hauled off to jail.
The riots were pre-planned, that movie was just a handy excuse to base them around.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Meh. So what? No worse than here. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 10:32 · Score: 2, Informative

Where you'll be arrested for resisting arrest.

In Soviet Russia... by logicassasin · 2012-09-21 10:37 · Score: 1

... oh wait.... ... nevermind.

--
Fifty watts per channel, baby cakes.

Jailed for giving facts! Not opinions. by Kaz+Kylheku · 2012-09-21 10:37 · Score: 3, Informative

From the article it is evident that she made precise measurements with lab equipment and presented them in court.
Any of her colleagues could have repeated those measurements.

Re:Jailed for giving facts! Not opinions. by LateArthurDent · 2012-09-21 12:16 · Score: 1

From the article it is evident that she made precise measurements with lab equipment and presented them in court.
Any of her colleagues could have repeated those measurements.
But would they be willing to testify in court to confirm those same measurements, after what happened to her?
Re:Jailed for giving facts! Not opinions. by tqk · 2012-09-21 12:21 · Score: 1

From the article it is evident that she made precise measurements with lab equipment and presented them in court.
The prosecution is accusing her of having reported on biased test results. Make lots of tests, but only report the lowest detected concentrations.

Any of her colleagues could have repeated those measurements.
Or, just start over with their own sampling and testing.
I'm guessing corrupt prosecutor. He hasn't seen enough tithe in his bank account, so she's going down.

--
"Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.

Re:Russia by Hatta · 2012-09-21 10:40 · Score: 2, Informative

Why can't these people govern themselves without state thugs snatching people in the night?

I ask the same thing about America. When we imprison sick people and their care givers, what right do we have to lecture Russia?

--
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!

It's like the KGB still runs the country.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 10:42 · Score: 1

Tell me again what Putin did before everyone 'voted' for him and his stooges?

Oh, that's right, the same thing Bush Sr did before everyone voted for him, his stooges and his son.

By amazing coincidence, Blair in the UK, Sarkozy in France, Berlusconi in Italy and many others around the world that were 'elected' to office had all previously worked in the spy business.

What an amazing coincidence.

The list is even longer if you include media personalities. Even puppy dog eyed Anderson Cooper is a CIA trained Vanderbilt.

Re:It's like the KGB still runs the country.... by tqk · 2012-09-21 12:36 · Score: 1

Interesting. I knew about Putin and Bush senior. I didn't know about Blair, Sarkozy, Berlusconi, or Cooper (not that Cooper matters much here).
Thanks.

--
"Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
Re:It's like the KGB still runs the country.... by Schmorgluck · 2012-09-21 13:19 · Score: 1

Citation needed.
I mean, seriously? Sarkozy, in the spy business? Speedy Sarko? Nicolas "Casse-toi pauv' con" Sarkozy? A man compared to whom Tony Montana is a model of self-control? I call bullshit.

--
There's nothing like $HOME

Russia: Doing Democracy Without a Condom by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 10:44 · Score: 1

If those people don't take care, pretty soon their justice system will be as corrupt and misguided as the US justice system. They'll be walking around demanding your papers, taking possessions and money without a warrant, jailing people for smoking pot, and only people with money for connected lawyers will sure of (cough) "Justice."

Re:Russia: Doing Democracy Without a Condom by wpi97 · 2012-09-21 12:37 · Score: 5, Informative

You and many other posters here are amazingly naive. With all its shortcomings, the US justice system is perfect compared to the Russian one. The members of the "Pussy Riot" group have just been sentenced to 3 years in prison for chanting an anti-Putin slogan in the main cathedral in Moscow. Mikhail Khodorkovsky has been convicted twice for completely ridiculous charges, and has been in prison for 9 years. Sergei Magnitsky, a lawyer for a British firm operating in Moscow, uncovered massive tax fraud by Russian officials. He was the arrested for... wait for it... tax fraud, held without trial for almost a year, and conveniently died just days before the 1-year limit for which he could be held without trial was due to expire. It is highly unlikely that he has died from natural causes. These are just the recent high-profile cases that are known internationally. Beyond those there is incredible corruption at all levels, and complete disregard of the rule of law by the police and other officials.
Re:Russia: Doing Democracy Without a Condom by wpi97 · 2012-09-21 13:50 · Score: 5, Informative

Who did? Pussy Riot? The most they could have been charged with by anyone with a brain is disturbing the peace, which according to the Russian law is punishable by a 15-day detention. Instead they were charged with a religion-based hate crime, and given a very real 2-year prison sentence (my mistake, they got 2 years, the prosecutors were asking for 3). If you read the reports from their trial or from the trial of Khodorkovsky, you will be amazed at how ridiculous the chargers and the arguments of the prosecution are. Kafka could not have made it up. And Magnitsky's case in an a class by itself. I person was held without trial and killed in prison. The US congress is considering sanctions against Russian officials because of this case. There are countless examples of abuse of power by police and other officials happening in Russia every day. There have been cases when people have been run over by a government official or an official's family member, and it was the victims who were charged and prosecuted. If you care enough, read something besides /.
Re:Russia: Doing Democracy Without a Condom by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 16:38 · Score: 1

Name?
Re:Russia: Doing Democracy Without a Condom by Pav · 2012-09-21 21:37 · Score: 5, Informative

Naive? You act like you live in a country that hasn't jailed a potential presidential nominee under Bush's watch on extremely dubious grounds. Watch that video to get a feel for how many other prosecutions have been politically persued and you'll start understanding how corrupted your judiciary was under Bush and continues to be under Obama. Karl Rove, the guy primarily responsible for this politicisation is working for the president of Sweden which is JUST ONE of the many reasons so many are dubious about the prosecution of Assange.
People laughed at Bush. In my country (Australia) people laughed at Joh Bjelke-Petersen until he went from state to federal politics. Luckily he was outmaneuvered in a snap election, then prosecuted... and it was exposed how utterly corrupted the judiciary and virtually every department of government had been. His only mistake had been to stay in state politics long enough for the rest of the country to know how corrupt he was. People had laughted, but we in Australia could have conceivably become a dictatorship. That sounds extreme, but the state police were regularly used to monitor, beat and arrest political opposition, political boundaries were redrawn to bais elections etc... This was in AUSTRALIA... and yet people in other states laughed at the bumbling buffoon and felt smug and superior until their democracy was threatened. That was 30 years ago and has been more or less forgotten.
Your judiciary is quite corrupt, make no mistake.
Re:Russia: Doing Democracy Without a Condom by Genda · 2012-09-21 21:37 · Score: 5, Informative

The problem is that there were a number of case of extraordinary rendition where innocent people were kidnapped by the U.S. Government, taken to the middle east where they were tortured then eventually dumped someplace else or in some cases died of the torture process. One of the more popular cases was that of Maher Arar, a Canadian telecommunications engineer with dual citizenship in Canada and Syria whose only mistake was landing in the U.S. for a flight layover on his way back home. What followed would have made a great situation comedy if torture hadn't been involved. The U.S. is stonewalling these cases to this day. There are so many horror stories the case of Aafia Siddiqui is so terrible, it made me nauseous reading it. I think the person the GP may be speaking of was the subject of a 60 Minutes segment. He was a University Professor (and was himself an immigrant from the Middle East) at a major school in New England and had posted flyer to get students together to discuss what the Government was doing and whether it served our culture to abandon the Geneva Convention. The result is that he himself was kidnapped and in an act of extraordinary rendition spent the next 18 months as a guest of the U.S. Government seeing a number of fascinating torture facilities in the middle east. His abuse was severe and the damage to his body and his mind permanent. Eventually he was dumped naked and found his way to Canada where he and his family now live. The US claims no knowledge of what happened to him.
There's a great book about rendition by a former CIA agent, and what he says basically is that the people who pushed this insanity through knew nothing about interrogation or intelligence, and that their choice to ignore the Geneva Convention damaged us far more than any attack from the outside ever could.
Re:Russia: Doing Democracy Without a Condom by DeathElk · 2012-09-21 21:56 · Score: 1

Ugh, thanks for reminding me. To quote Peter Garrett; "Short Memory, must have a, short memory"
Re:Russia: Doing Democracy Without a Condom by nobaloney · 2012-09-22 05:54 · Score: 1

Different strokes.
And in some countries they put you in jail for that, too.
Re:Russia: Doing Democracy Without a Condom by Pav · 2012-09-23 05:10 · Score: 1

I found an interview with a biographer of Prime Minister of Sweden Dr Brian Palmer here (the interview is about 1/3rd the way through). It seems like there is no proof of a Rove/Assange connection, but Karl Rove does have a Swedish background, his only foreign client being the Swedish Moderate Party, and has spend much time in Sweden though there's no evidence that he has spend all of that time with the Moderate Party, though he has spent time with think tanks with ideological connections to them. It is also mentioned that one of the partners in the law firm representing one of the girls in the Assange case assisted in the CIA Extraordinary Rendition and torture from Sweden to Egypt.
Re:Russia: Doing Democracy Without a Condom by tingentleman · 2012-09-23 07:00 · Score: 1

Why does anyone do business there? It baffles me...
Re:Russia: Doing Democracy Without a Condom by wpi97 · 2012-09-24 02:12 · Score: 1

Thank you for agreeing with my main point.
However, it was an anti-Putin slogan, or, rather, a prayer of sorts. The exact wording was "Mother of god, drive Putin away". Prosecuting this as a religious hate crime is ridiculous. At the very worst, this is disturbing the peace. At best, this is a legitimate political protest, given how corrupt the government and the church are in Russia.
During the trial the judge was quoting centuries-old rulings by church councils about proper conduct in a church. Cathedral security guards were called as witnesses to testify how insulted their religious sensibilities were. It was like reading reports from a medieval trial of a heretic by the Inquisition.
By the way, there was a case of somebody chanting political slogans in a cathedral in the UK. The man was tried in court and fined 16 pounds, IIRC, according to some blasphemy law from the 1600's. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of time to spend looking for that article.
Re:Russia: Doing Democracy Without a Condom by JoeInnes · 2012-09-24 06:37 · Score: 1

They called the head of the Orthodox Church a "suka" [http://www.russiaslam.com/glossary#ÑÑfÐÐ] (no Cyrillic on /. so if link doesn't work, try www.russiaslam.com/glossary and scroll down to the word that looks like "cyka")... that's pretty much definitely religious hatred.

Russians take religion pretty seriously, although I agree, a lot of the trial was for show.
Re:Russia: Doing Democracy Without a Condom by wpi97 · 2012-09-24 07:52 · Score: 1

Thanks, but I am a native Russian speaker, so I know what the word means. And no, a verbal personal insult of the patriarch does not constitute a hate crime.
Re:Russia: Doing Democracy Without a Condom by JoeInnes · 2012-09-24 07:59 · Score: 1

Fair enough. I would disagree, especially as the use of mat in Russia is a public order offence in itself, but that's my opinion.
Re:Russia: Doing Democracy Without a Condom by wiedzmin · 2012-09-25 06:17 · Score: 1

Definitely. Definitely. Wikileaks, Megaupload and all the TSA cases are all prime examples of how US justice system is not at all like the Russian one, for sure.

--
Bow before me, for I am root.

Could happen anywhere ! by redelm · 2012-09-21 10:47 · Score: 2

... all it takes is _one_ over-zealous persecutor. The other prosecutors might think it going too far, or might even be genuinely outraged. But what can they do? Charges are charges, and will grind through the pre-established system. She might [or might not] be able to "beat the rap", but no-where can a targetted individual "beat the ride".

One could say things about Russia's lack of tradition and understanding of basic human rights. But frankly I'm not convinced this matters much -- look at how rapidly the majority of Americans have accepted the appalling violations of the TSA.

One might say western judges have a greater sense of procedural necessities like attorney-client or judicial privilige. But judges have been ground down over the years by the stick of overturned-on-appeal and the carrot of higher appointments. Judges routinely accept any intelligent or independant juror being rejected, and AFAIK none will instruct a jury on their [still legal] nullification power. Even some of the USSC rulings are bizzarely in favor of govt (property seizure).

Re:Could happen anywhere ! by drinkypoo · 2012-09-21 11:56 · Score: 3, Interesting

Judges routinely accept any intelligent or independant juror being rejected, and AFAIK none will instruct a jury on their [still legal] nullification power
Not just that; the judge will use misleading language to attempt to make the jurors believe they do not have any jury nullification powers. They tell the jurors that if the defendant did such and such thing that they must follow the law. This isn't strictly false; the law says they may nullify, because the law includes case law, not just what's in the code. So the judge effectively lies to them and gets away with it, which is apparently part of the job... the job of collecting all power to oneself and keeping it.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:Could happen anywhere ! by tqk · 2012-09-21 12:53 · Score: 1

One might say western judges have a greater sense of procedural necessities like attorney-client or judicial privilige. But judges have been ground down over the years by the stick of overturned-on-appeal and the carrot of higher appointments. Judges routinely accept any intelligent or independant juror being rejected, and AFAIK none will instruct a jury on their [still legal] nullification power. Even some of the USSC rulings are bizzarely in favor of govt (property seizure).
Yes, and prosecutors can generally get away with murder. There is no check on their power that can stick.

--
"Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
Re:Could happen anywhere ! by funwithBSD · 2012-09-21 13:26 · Score: 1

There has been plenty of talk about jailing (or worse executing/starving) AGM deniers, so why is this a surprise?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2133771/Columnist-says-global-warming-skeptics-houses-burnt-down.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jun/23/fossilfuels.climatechange
http://www.climatedepot.com/a/1174/Update-Romm-defends-remarks-as-not-a-threat-but-a-prediction--Strangle-Skeptics-in-Bed-An-entire-generation-will-soon-be-ready-to-strangle-you-and-your-kind-while-you-sleep-in-your-beds

--
Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
Re:Could happen anywhere ! by the+eric+conspiracy · 2012-09-21 14:32 · Score: 1

You are citing the Daily Mail as an authority on global warming? These people routinely misquote and distort comments made by scientists on the topic. They are a pack of outright liars.
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/02/14/daily-mail-caught-in-another-l/
Re:Could happen anywhere ! by dryeo · 2012-09-21 15:50 · Score: 2

and AFAIK none will instruct a jury on their [still legal] nullification power.
The problem with jury nullification is that it is often used for the wrong reasons. In the States a common use of jury nullification was to prevent the white boy who killed the nigger for looking at or talking to a white women from being convicted of murder.

--
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
Re:Could happen anywhere ! by funwithBSD · 2012-09-21 16:09 · Score: 1

It is not reporting science, it is reporting a columnists suggestion on making climate deniers pay for their "stupidity" by being the first to starve when climate change ruins the crops.
Here is the original article, if you really want to read it from a "scientist":
http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevezwick/2012/04/19/a-tennessee-firemans-solution-to-climate-change/
Not that Steve Zwick is a scientist, he is just passing judgement on them.
So no, no science involved here at the Daily Mail, just reporting the suggested attacks on scientists by a non-scientist, who want terrible things to happen to them because they don't agree with what Zwick thinks they should say.
Kinda like the prosecutors in Russia, who I am sure are not scientists either.

--
Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
Re:Could happen anywhere ! by shentino · 2012-09-21 19:46 · Score: 1

What happens to jury nullification when jurors ARE aware of it and have to commit perjury during voir dire to invoke it?
Re:Could happen anywhere ! by TheGratefulNet · 2012-09-22 01:05 · Score: 1

THAT's the rub!
I was in voire dire twice. twice I had to go thru a large set of 'pre test' questions (written) and there was a few instances of 'will you vote as the judge instructed or will you follow your concience?'. that was the 'do you know about JN?' question, repeated a few times to be sure of your answer.
if you answered that you know about JN, you were excused!
this is BULLSHIT!!!
and if you do get to juror box and exercise your right, YOU CAN BE ARRESTED AND JAILED.
we are only marginally better than, say, russia and china. in appearances, to some degree, we are; but where it counts, we are not! where it counts, those in power still pretty much get their way, by hook or by crook (yarrrr!)

--

--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Re:Could happen anywhere ! by TheGratefulNet · 2012-09-22 01:09 · Score: 1

there's no MODERN 'use' of JN these days since its filtered before you are ever allowed in the jury.
you do have to 'worry' if they catch you voting your concience. I guess you have to be very careful in voire dire. and NEVER EVER admit that you are following JN. just say 'the guy didn't do it, I don't think' and leave it at that. they don't really want to know that you did follow JN; and they'll punish you for it if they find out.
SO, NEVER TELL THEM. its still risky as it pissed the judge off MASSIVELY. and a pissed off judge is a loose canon. anything can happen when you annoy those priviledged class guys.

--

--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Re:Could happen anywhere ! by Khashishi · 2012-09-22 04:00 · Score: 1

You might save one person that way, but one of the goals of jury nullification is to incite a change in the laws.

in soviet russia we miscarriage you! by Joe_Dragon · 2012-09-21 10:50 · Score: 2

in soviet russia we miscarriage you!

Re:in soviet russia we miscarriage you! by tqk · 2012-09-21 12:55 · Score: 1

in soviet russia we miscarriage you!
"soviet russia" is so last century. You need a new meme.

--
"Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.

Potential explanations by gman003 · 2012-09-21 10:57 · Score: 2, Insightful

As much as it clashes with both our "Russia is evil" and our "science is right" mindsets, there are some explanations that could justify this. I'm not saying they're actually what happened (indeed, "Russia is evil" is the simplest and most likely explanation), but someone more fluent in Russian than I can look at the actual documents and see.

First, suppose the expert is not actually an expert, just an accomplice of the traffickers posing as one to try to get out of the charges. Rather obvious conspiracy charges there.

But let's suppose the expert scientist is indeed both an expert and a scientist. But let's also suppose that some stronger evidence showed clear drug charges - for instance, finding actual drugs and video evidence of trafficking. This could mean the expert was simply incompetent, or was bought off. Either of those would be grounds for obstruction of justice, although probably not conspiracy (at least according to my limited knowledge of a different country's laws).

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go actually read the article.

Re:Potential explanations by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 11:19 · Score: 1

Well, in that alternate universe she's guilty. But that's not what happened.
Re:Potential explanations by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 15:01 · Score: 1

Who modded this "Insightful" ? This is classic troll post. Wild claims with no reference to factually back them. As someone "more fluent in Russian" who actually read the articles let me enlighten you on what is going on. In 2005 the state legislated set of standards () was changed in the part describing the acceptable purity of poppy seeds from allowing 3% impurities (pretty normal for agricultural production) to no impurities. At the same Russian anti-narcotics law states that if any amount of drug is mixed with inert substance the whole mix is considered a narcotic. In the case of poppy seed this means that if you have a piece of poppy straw (contains narcotic) mixed with 100 pounds of sees (do not contain narcotic) the whole 100 pounds is considered a drug an you are going to jail for major drug trafficking. Apparently after the change in the law the amount of successfully persecuted drug charges has gone up significantly. The new law has also created a lucrative extortion business where law enforcement staff targets bakeries (the poppy seeds are typically sprinkled on bread rolls) and poppy seed importers. Now the import part is particularly curious, because all poppy seed in Russia is imported. Apparently Russian customs and law enforcement allow what they know to be strictly speaking a "drug" to be imported and distributed, and then go after the people who receive the shipments. Unfortunately for them Olga Zelenina was quite successful testifying in court for the defense in such cases and was also part of a group trying to establish a reasonable standard. So after they fail to convict a person for importing 42 tons of seed, they went after the expert witness. Here are some references for you in Russian:
http://www.novayagazeta.ru/inquests/54086.html
http://newsru.com/russia/20sep2012/zelenina.html
http://pasmi.ru/archive/50646
http://www.city-n.ru/view/312375.html

Does Russia have Battered Wife Syndrome? by kawabago · 2012-09-21 11:06 · Score: 1

It's a good question in light of this story.

Re:Does Russia have Battered Wife Syndrome? by circletimessquare · 2012-09-21 12:01 · Score: 1, Flamebait

in a way, yes
beat the population, you teach the population power and strength means beating the population. some break the cycle, but enough continue the brutality to keep the brutality going generation after generation
no country is immune from this
in the usa, we have a bunch of ignorant rural southerners who faithfully vote republican, even though they live shorter, unhealthier lives, because of republican policies
how is this possible? well, education is deemphasized: that's evil liberal indoctrination. so you get them with the constant litany of teaching ignorant things. that mr. CEO deserves his ridiculous salary because he worked hard to get it all by himself from scratch (pay no attention to the favor daddy called in to his country club chums to get him his first job). that the idea that he has to sit on a silver toilet, and not a gold toilet, so some of his workers get healthcare, is evil socialist redistribution
even more amazing: rural southerns will be shouting that redistribution is evil, even as the rural south receives the lions share of federal subsidies. amazing, isn't it? the ignorance, the blindness? get a kid young, you can teach him the craziest shit, and he will believe it and defend it, as a point of pride
my fellow americans: everyone should start out on the same footing, with good healthcare and good education, and where they wind up should be a simple reflection of how much hard work they do. a meritocracy. i believe in that
but what the hell that idea has to do with a predatorial class that uses those words to defend its existence, even as it redistributes money UP, making you poorer and unhealthier and your kids more stupid, is beyond me. why do so many fools who understand the idea of meritocracy, understand so strongly when a poor nonwhite women staying on welfare is wrong, but don't understand when mr. i-got-my-job-from-my-dad's-country-club-chums is bailed out and pays a ridiculously low tax rate: no, that's fair. wtf? wake the fuck up
america believes in working hard, you get your just rewards. the upside of this belief is that a lot people actually do just that. but plenty others work hard, and get shit, and don't perceive the class structures keeping them down. classism is alive and well in america, but america's work hard ethic masks the bad side effects of classism, people only blame themselves, not the class structures holding them down. in europe, they readily recognize classism. and so "evil socialist redstribution" isn't seen that way, but instead seen as a good correction for genuine class structures that keep the poor unfairly down
if everyone doesn't start on the same footing, you can't believe where they wind up is fair. you correct that by making sure everyone gets a good education and good healthcare. then you erase a lot of the unfairness of what is real and alive in america: class structures

--
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it

Re:Russia by PPH · 2012-09-21 11:13 · Score: 2

state thugs snatching people in the night

We prefer the term extraordinary rendition.

--
Have gnu, will travel.

No not at all by Sycraft-fu · 2012-09-21 11:16 · Score: 1

Russia has become a little more free than it was when it was part of the USSR, but not much. http://www.freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2012/russia-0 more or less it has presented the facade of a democracy, but is still a one party centrally controlled system.

miscarriage of justice? by Penurious+Penguin · 2012-09-21 11:18 · Score: 5, Insightful

How about gruel-born double-standards?
I've been wondering what all this hysteria about Big Bad Russia is about for some time now. Surely Russia is no Shambhala, but the US is a veritable litigation shit-hole slaughterhouse. We, here in the U.S. of A., imprison more people than any other nation. We have a privatized prison-industry and trade virtual crime-futures on the stock-exchange. Closer and closer we are coming to a re-introduction of prison labor, all while a repugnantly large portion of incarcerated citizens live in cages for victimless crimes.

My advice to anyone itching to don the Good-Guy Badge and storm the palace of bacchanalian litigation, is to look no further if you are a US citizen. In no way do I suggest that pointing fingers at corruption is error; but we really do have some house-cleaning of our own to do -- and to recklessly embrace hypocrisy may not be wise.

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Forward! -- Emperor Norton, 2012

Re:miscarriage of justice? by drinkypoo · 2012-09-21 11:48 · Score: 2, Informative

We, here in the U.S. of A., imprison more people than any other nation.
That's because we don't murder so many as some others, like China, where they legally murder ten times as many people as we do, per capita.

My advice to anyone itching to don the Good-Guy Badge and storm the palace of bacchanalian litigation, is to look no further if you are a US citizen.
Before we get around to that, let's storm them for doing murder in our name in pursuit of profit.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:miscarriage of justice? by Pastis · 2012-09-21 16:13 · Score: 1

We, here in the U.S. of A., imprison more people than any other nation.
That's because we don't murder so many as some others, like China, where they legally murder ten times as many people as we do, per capita.
I live in a European state without death penalty. By your logic, as US legally murders way more people than we do, per capita, it should have way much less people in jail as we do, per capita.
Fail...
France and Germany have around 8 times less people per capita in jail than US. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-prisoners-per-capita

--
Sneak teach kids Algebra using a game
Re:miscarriage of justice? by Alex+Belits · 2012-09-21 19:28 · Score: 1

But this is about Russia. A country that didn't sentence anyone to death since late 90's and doesn't now even have a procedure that would allow courts to issue such a sentence. Even though laws allowing death sentence for some crimes is still on the books, courts can only give prison terms on those.

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.

Re:Russia by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-09-21 11:19 · Score: 1

Why can't these people govern themselves without state thugs snatching people in the night?

We tried in the 90s, but somehow it just ended up being criminal (non-state, private "enterprise") thugs doing the same thing. And there were more of them, so people kinda figured that it's better when you have one in charge officially. At least that takes care of all the others.

In Soviet Russia... by Graham+J+-+XVI · 2012-09-21 11:21 · Score: 3, Funny

...seeds jail YOU.

Re:Russia by rahvin112 · 2012-09-21 12:01 · Score: 3, Insightful

No there isn't. You are a fool to even suggest there is. Assine laws enforced with procedure are no different that good/poor laws enforced without procedure. If I make it illegal to breathe but you still have due process when you are convicted you think that's better?

Both scenarios result in tremendous damage to truly innocent people. There isn't a such thing as less terrible when the result is destroying peoples lives. Oh don't worry George, you only lost 30 years of your life for an unjust law, but at least you weren't railroaded over a just law and lost 30 years, because that would just suck so much more.

Re:Russia by tqk · 2012-09-21 12:04 · Score: 1

Why can't these people govern themselves without state thugs snatching people in the night?

That'd take all the fun out of it. You want your victims pissing their pants while they're still half asleep and verging on a heart attack when you paint them with a laser sight. How else are they going to learn the lesson? Besides, it's safer for everyone involved since it's far less likely that you've armed yourself and are ready for them.

--
"Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.

140% by mosb1000 · 2012-09-21 12:18 · Score: 1

I'm pretty sure that in russia it goes up to 140%

Re:140% by temcat · 2012-09-21 20:26 · Score: 1

No, The Magic Number is 146%.

Re:That's because by cheesybagel · 2012-09-21 12:19 · Score: 2

They won WWI. Sure they had allies. So did Napoleon. The US had to buy military airplanes from the French back in WWI FYI.

Re:Bad Luck Brian by tqk · 2012-09-21 12:26 · Score: 1

Prominent scientist and intellectual

in Russia

You ignorant git. I'm shaking my head in astonishment that anyone could be as dense as you.

--
"Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.

Re:Russia by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-09-21 12:52 · Score: 1

There is a difference because, in one case, you know about the unjust law, and you can plan your actions to avoid it - or at least avoid getting in caught. In the absence of the rule of law, on the other hand, you can be found guilty on a whim of someone in power just because you crossed their way - even on accident. That's a very big difference.

Re:Russia by Schmorgluck · 2012-09-21 13:10 · Score: 1

Attorneys who don't do their best for their clients ought to be disbarred. There are countries in which attorneys volunteer for public defense duty because they consider it part of the honor of their profession.

--
There's nothing like $HOME

Re:Clueless summary by Schmorgluck · 2012-09-21 13:22 · Score: 1

You obviously know absolutely nothing about the Pussy Riot affair, but hey, don't let that stop you from spouting nonsense.

--
There's nothing like $HOME

Re:Russia by artor3 · 2012-09-21 13:26 · Score: 1

I'm with you on addicts being sick people and not deserving prison. But it's quite a stretch to call drug dealers "care givers". The dealer's goal isn't to help the addict, it's to extract as much money from them as possible.

Not unlike most corporations, come to think of it.

Chilling Effect by romanr · 2012-09-21 13:57 · Score: 1

Good luck trying to get any experts testifying about anything in the future. If your testimony doesn't match up with what the gov't wants to hear you go to jail?

No Thanks.

so? by Mr2cents · 2012-09-21 17:56 · Score: 1

This could have been the USA sooo easily...

--
"It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful." - Anton LaVey

Re:Clueless summary by Alex+Belits · 2012-09-21 19:30 · Score: 1

No, that was a pretty accurate description of their actions. Probably not enough to justify 2 years in prison though.

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.

Re:That's because by stjobe · 2012-09-21 19:59 · Score: 4, Informative

I doubt it's a coincidence the French haven't won a war since the French Revolution (if you consider Napolean a continuation of the Revolution...)

These battles might be of interest to you arrogant Americans:

1758 Battle of Carillon (a.k.a. Battle of Ticonderoga)
General Montcalm and his vastly outnumbered French forces are victorious over the British.

1781 Battle of Yorktown
French forces, allied with the Americans, are victorious over Cornwallis and his English army.

1781 Battle of the Chesapeake - September 5th
France, coming the aid of America's George Washington, defeats the British in a strategic victory.

Without the French military you mock so, you wouldn't even have a country.

--
"Total destruction the only solution" - Bob Marley

Re:Clueless summary by temcat · 2012-09-21 20:43 · Score: 1

How did they trash the place and what did they vandalize so you call them vandals? They did trespass, no question about that.

Re:That's because by AliasMarlowe · 2012-09-21 23:10 · Score: 2, Informative

I doubt it's a coincidence the French haven't won a war since the French Revolution (if you consider Napolean a continuation of the Revolution...)

These battles might be of interest to you arrogant Americans:

1758 Battle of Carillon (a.k.a. Battle of Ticonderoga) General Montcalm and his vastly outnumbered French forces are victorious over the British.

1781 Battle of Yorktown French forces, allied with the Americans, are victorious over Cornwallis and his English army.

1781 Battle of the Chesapeake - September 5th France, coming the aid of America's George Washington, defeats the British in a strategic victory.

You were going for a "funny" upmod, weren't you!

All those battles were before the French Revolution, which was 1789-1799. They are hardly contradictions of his somewhat tongue-in-cheek assertion. Moreover, they were battles, while his assertion was for wars. FWIW, I'm not an American, either.

--
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire

Re:Russia by chilvence · 2012-09-22 01:07 · Score: 1

So, the first way you know you are fucked, the second way you can enjoy a relative ignorance?

Arbitrary Detention and Prosecutorial Fishing? by Jeremiah+Cornelius · 2012-09-22 03:36 · Score: 2

Who the hell do these Russians think they are?

The United States?

--
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."

Re:Russia by aralin · 2012-09-22 08:17 · Score: 1

You can avoid it? You make me laugh. If I start looking into you, I am 100% sure I will find at least 10 years worth of jail time offenses you are guilty of and the government could safely charge you with today if they so chose and they would follow the due process to the dot.

--
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.

Re:That's because by CTU · 2012-09-22 08:51 · Score: 1

Ok, I admit i did not really know about those battles. Tho in my defense I am no French history expert.

Re:That's because by stjobe · 2012-09-22 09:55 · Score: 2

It wasn't supposed to be a contradiction, it was supposed to be educational. Of course I'm aware those battles were fought before the French revolution. That's not the point. The point is that the military the Americans are so fond of mocking is the one that helped them create their very nation.

Mention Ticonderoga, Yorktown, or Chesapeake to any American military buff and they'll get something proud and patriotic in their eyes - but it was really the French that carried those victories. That's something they choose to forget - hence the "arrogant" part of my post.

Some further tidbits about the French military:
Of 125 major European wars since 1495, the French have fought in 50, more than Austria (47) or England (43).
Out of a total 168 battles they've fought since 387BC, they won 109, lost 49 and drawn 10.

That's quite the record, wouldn't you say?

FWIW, I'm neither French nor American. I'm just tired of the chest-pounding, the short memories, and the ungratefulness of it.

--
"Total destruction the only solution" - Bob Marley

Re:That's because by thrich81 · 2012-09-22 15:42 · Score: 1

So what have they done lately? In more modern history (20th century) the screwed-up reparations imposed on Germany after WWI which materially contributed to the instability there and so catalyzed WWII in Europe were primarily due to French demands.
Also the French attempt to reclaim their colonies in South-East Asia after WWII gave us the instability there which lead the US into picking the wrong side and screwing it up in Vietnam. France's lack of participation in NATO wasn't particularly helpful in keeping the Soviets at bay from about 1950 to 1990, either. So, yeah, thanks for the help in 1781, and the French were inadvertently helpful in 1812 in keeping the Brits busy in Europe, but since then what have they done but cause trouble for the other western democracies?

Update-chemist free for now by ColoradoAuthor · 2012-09-25 09:45 · Score: 1

September 25 update from nature.com: "Since this story went to press, a judge at a Moscow city court ruled on 25 September that Olga Zenelina immediately be released from custody, pending her trial. A date for the trial has not yet been scheduled."

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Chemist Jailed In Russia For Giving Expert Opinion In Court

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