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Federal Judge Says No Right To Secret Ballot, OKs Barcoded Ballots

doug141 writes "A Colorado county put bar codes on printed ballots in a last minute effort to comply with a rule about eliminating identifying markings. Citizens sued, because the bar codes can still be traced back to individual voters. In a surprise ruling, Denver U.S. District Judge Christine Arguello said the U.S. Constitution did not contain a 'fundamental right' to secret ballots, and that the citizens could not show their voting rights had been violated, nor that they might suffer any specific injury from the bar codes."

25 of 584 comments (clear)

  1. LOL, American "democracy"! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    LOL!

    1. Re:LOL, American "democracy"! by mrmeval · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We call it demockracy and that's not what we had. What we have now is an unstable crypto-plutocracy with the trappings of fairness and equality slathered on and maintained through the inertia of habit. We've not had a republic since the civil war which for the most part destroyed the concept of the sovereign nature of the states. There were a few amendments that eased the process. Governments will invariably acquire more power, sometimes it's given to it with great cheering and sometimes it's sullenly forced upon it and sometime it takes it by force.

      --
      I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
    2. Re:LOL, American "democracy"! by Sique · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No. It is quite possible to ensure the integrity of the ballot without being racist. Voter registration is one of the methods. Making it unusually complicated to register for certain groups is racist. And it is unnecessary for the integrity of the ballot.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    3. Re:LOL, American "democracy"! by TheGavster · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I personally know at least one person who voted underage through voter impersonation. If I, as someone totally removed from the "inside" of the politcal process run into it, I can assure you that there are many, many cases with much more malicious intent than a 16 year old who really really wanted to be able to say he voted for Kerry. If a fully naturalized citizen must present ID to board an airplane, buy alcohol, or even travel by car near the beach on a holiday weekend (hello, welcome to the checkpoint, papers please!), why is it suddenly "racist" to demand ID to vote? Are minorities somehow incapable of going to the DMV for their non-driver ID cards like everyone else?

      --
      "Because Science" is one step from "Because old book". Try "Because of my experiment testing my falsifiable assertion".
    4. Re:LOL, American "democracy"! by currently_awake · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Then the USA isn't democratic as there is no way to remove big business from power.

    5. Re:LOL, American "democracy"! by dcollins · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "If a fully naturalized citizen must present ID to board an airplane, buy alcohol, or even travel by car near the beach on a holiday weekend (hello, welcome to the checkpoint, papers please!), why is it suddenly 'racist' to demand ID to vote?"

      Ah, the "Slippery slope exists, and I LOVE it!" argument. Don't double-down and expand on tyranny, roll that shit back.

      And yes, minorities do tend to have lower incomes, less flexibility in work schedules, and greater burden make travel happen, so requirements that they get ID cards do in fact hit them (and also senior citizens, and the handicapped) harder. Plus in some districts the non-driver ID cards come from a separate office that's open for 1 hour a week -- nice trick.

      --
      We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
    6. Re:LOL, American "democracy"! by Artifakt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      My state (Tennessee) has now set things up so student IDs usually don't work as a form of picture ID (The law requires a fixed address and both an issue and expiration date - on campus housing is legally a temporary address and so may not fit the technical definition of fixed, and many schools don't put an issue or expiration date on their IDs). The same problem exists for most employee IDs (as many don't have at least one of either issue or expiration dates), and photo IDs for Military Retirees (particularly unfair as the disabled veterans IDs used at VA clinics don't have an expiration date, but some other military retirement cards do). I still have an old Green military ID, but commissioned officer IDs from that time were set up with no expiration date shown (because the Geneva Convention category on the back never expires as a legal indicator, and If we ever lose a war and the occupying force actually giives a damn about the convention, it stays a legal proof), so I couldn't use that, but If I had an enlisted ID that hadn't expired, it would probably work. It's more than a little disturbing to me that the state wrote a law about IDs without taking into account why some of them do or don't use all the lines the state thinks are needed to prevent voter fraud, and thinks its laws can override the Americans with Disabilities Act and the Geneva convention (or never gave a damn one way or another). I don't see how issue and expiration dates affect proving who someone is for voting purposes. You CAN use a concealed carry permit, as that has all the necessary lines.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    7. Re:LOL, American "democracy"! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Sure there is: don't buy their products.

      We tried that with GM and it didn't work very well

    8. Re:LOL, American "democracy"! by physicsphairy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That is certainly a bleak picture you paint. My question is. . . why is it that after considering all the unfair hurdles they must face in obtaining identification, the conclusion is not to remove those hurdles? Why would we instead divert all focus to remedying one particular side-effect, when we could attack the problem itself? We should work on getting these people access to IDs and all the coincident advantages (being able to use public transport, buy cough syrup, etc.). Then we can tout equitable access while still enforcing integrity in the voting process, and generally improve the lot of the potentially disenfranchised.

    9. Re:LOL, American "democracy"! by ultranova · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Corporations deserve/require a voice in government too.

      No, they don't. Their owners already have a voice. Why would they deserve to speak with additional voices through entities that only exist as legal fiction? Should I be able to vote once for every pseudonym I use on the Internet?

      Our system of investment would crumble along with our economy if it wasn't there. The government has to be conducive to business if you expect jobs and/or a middle class of people.

      When corporations get a voice in the government they don't have any incentive to make things conductive to business. They have an incentive to make things hard for their competitors and conductive to the kind of financial games that led to the current crisis. Oh, and to allow employee abuse.

      If anything, giving corporations a voice in government would make it harder to start new ones since the existing ones have every incentive to pre-emptively fight against competition.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    10. Re:LOL, American "democracy"! by HiThere · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Space colonies can be guaranteed to go for rigid control of the populace. The habitat is too vulnerable to damage. They will probably also be technocratic meritocracies with strong conditioning throughout the early years, and harsh punishments for those whose adolescent rebellion takes forms deemed dangerous.

      Earth is a much nicer place to live.

      N.B.: I'm talking about the physical and environmental regulation. It's quite plausible that virtual reality will provide a grant of freedom in other areas.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    11. Re:LOL, American "democracy"! by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sure there is: don't buy their products.

      We tried that with GM and it didn't work very well

      That is because you voted in the WRONG PEOPLE and sent them to Capital Hill.

      It would have worked if nobody on the Capital Hill decided to help GM - and that would set an extremely alarming precedence to all other corporations out there

      --
      Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
  2. Freedom by Nerdfest · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It seems that everywhere in the world, governments and corporations have decided that because we have the technology, it's okay to use it to abuse people's rights and freedoms in ways that would be illegal if they were done in person, or on paper.

    1. Re:Freedom by wvmarle · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Smart governments, at least those that also like to keep up true democratic values, will do whatever they can to prevent election fraud. This is also one major argument against online voting, without the need of going to a polling station.

      Ballots that can be traced to a voter, or where the voter can be watched filling in the ballot paper, can be bought. This way elections can be bought. And that alone is enough reason to not have any identifying mark on any ballot.

    2. Re:Freedom by Nerdfest · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, I say "I think" as I'm not American, nor am I an expert in American law, but I was under the impression that you do have the right to a secret ballot to protect you from having your vote coerced. If the barcode is tied to you voter registration number, it easily allows a machine to do what a human readable voter number would do, and tie your vote back to you.

    3. Re:Freedom by Concerned+Onlooker · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How your representative votes IS your right to know. However, when the government knows how you vote then abuse creeps in. Just look around the world. It's not uncommon to be rewarded for voting a certain way or terribly punished for voting another way, and that is effected when authorities can know how you voted.

      I think you might be the one advocating corruption here.

      --
      http://www.rootstrikers.org/
    4. Re:Freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Here's the thing, you don't get the right to vote for your government because you can pay for it.

      You get the right to vote for your government because that's the only way it can legitimately derive its authority.

      Taxation as a pathway to voting, in any form, is a repugnant suggestion that ignores the very concept of government.

  3. Barcodes by jkflying · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Obviously, just barcode the people. It will make things much easier for admin.

    --
    Help I am stuck in a signature factory!
  4. This is going to the supreme court by InPursuitOfTruth · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The fundamental problem is that lack of anonymity creates pressure to change one's vote not due to one's personal beliefs, but rather due to pressure from an outcome of what another might think. In the extreme case, we are talking potential retaliation by a regime or political part. This has happened repeatedly through history, and happens today. While the extreme case doesn't appear to apply in the US today, in pre-WW II German, it did. If civilized countries can change quickly to oppress, then how, if our inherent right to vote does not come with an obvious need for protections such as anonymity, can our constitution protect us indefinitely?

  5. This judge is a idiot! by tramp · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The whole purpose of a paper ballot is to keep your vote secret. If that was not the case you could far more easily went in and say your choice aloud.

  6. It is alarming for a judge to say this by doug141 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    She said that even if a ballot could be traced back to a specific voter, it doesn't show that a person's voting rights were violated, saying there was no "fundamental right" to a secret vote in the U.S. Constitution.

  7. We are not slaves by jabberw0k · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The U.S.A. is a free country, we do not require Identity Papers. I did not have a drivers license until age 33 and lived my whole life just fine. For you to say that I would be required to carry identity papers, would be to say that I live as a slave in a totalitarian government. I only carry my drivers license when driving, and only show it to a police officer in regards to a driving offense. That is all it is to be used for.

    1. Re:We are not slaves by RabidReindeer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The U.S.A. is a free country, we do not require Identity Papers. I did not have a drivers license until age 33 and lived my whole life just fine. For you to say that I would be required to carry identity papers, would be to say that I live as a slave in a totalitarian government. I only carry my drivers license when driving, and only show it to a police officer in regards to a driving offense. That is all it is to be used for.

      I can tell you don't fly. Or are papers required to take the bus/train these days, too?

  8. "appropriate measures" by pepty · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Odd how republicans campaign on slashing and eliminating unnecessary regulations while simultaneously adding burdensome regulations without bothering to demonstrate that they solve an actual problem.

    If these were health, safety, or environmental regulations republicans would be screaming that the cost of implementing the regulations is a waste of tax dollars, that citizens have to be reimbursed for the "takings" (lost income, expenses) these regulations forced them to incur, and overall would blather about the rules being another example of intrusive big government. They would go on to say that any effect of improper voting is speculative and demand to see evidence of actual harm (thrown elections) before allowing any such regulations.

    Amazing how republicans' math skills invert if you switch from talking about arsenic in drinking water to improper voting.

  9. Try "zero" hours a week for the DMV by davidwr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In George W. Bush's home state of Texas, voter-ID laws are on hold in part because dozens of counties have NO place to get a driver's license or photo ID card. Everyone in those counties has to drive to the next county to get one.

    Voter registration can be done by mail, which is a much lower burden on those with no car or who work basically the same hours as the DMV office is open.

    By the way, the impact on minorities is not BECAUSE they are minorities, but because being a minority is, for now at least, highly correlated to being poor, lacking good access to transportation, and other impediments to getting to the DMV office to get a photo ID or drivers license. If poverty and lack of access to good transportation were both uniformly distributed over ethnic and racial groups and other "minority" groups, then voter-ID laws would still hurt the poor and those without access to good transportation, but it would not have a disproportionate effect on any particular racial or ethnic group.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.