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Another Call For Abolishing Patents, This One From the St. Louis Fed

New submitter WOOFYGOOFY writes "The most recent call for curtailing patents comes not just from an unexpected source, the St. Louis Fed, but also in its most basic form: total abolition of all patents. Via the Atlantic Monthly: a new working paper (PDF) from two members of the St. Louis Federal Reserve, Michele Boldrin and David Levine, in which they argue that while a weak patent system may mildly increase innovation with limited side-effects, such a system can never be contained and will inevitably lead to a stifling patent system such as that presently found in the U.S. They argue: '...strong patent systems retard innovation with many negative side-effects. ... the political demand for stronger patent protection comes from old and stagnant industries and firms, not from new and innovative ones. Hence the best solution is to abolish patents entirely through strong constitutional measures and to find other legislative instruments, less open to lobbying and rent-seeking.' They acknowledge that some industries could suffer under a such a system. They single out pharma, and suggest other legislative measures be found to foster innovation whenever there is clear evidence that laissez-faire under-supplies it."

18 of 315 comments (clear)

  1. If abolishing patents won't happen... by TWX · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ...why not change the duration, or require active production to defend a patent?

    For some industries, 17 years is a very long time. If the duration were lowered for software to something like five years that'd make more sense to me.

    For physical device patents, patent holders who fail to produce goods (and I don't mean to license the patent to another manufacturer without self-producing) a lack of production should spell the end. If they won't produce it then someone else could have the right to do so.

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    1. Re:If abolishing patents won't happen... by FireFury03 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Trade secrets lead to a closed, uncooperative system where "the wheel" so to speak is constantly reinvented and the pace of techological innovation is significantly slowed.

      When was the last time you looked up a patent rather than reinventing the wheel? Certainly whith software I am reinventing wheels on a daily basis, but it is easier and quicker for me to do this than find an appropriate patent and adapt it to my situation.

      Most software patents document the obvious. Those things that weren't obvious when they were filed will be considered obvious by the time they are granted. Modern patents are also so badly obfuscated by the patent writers that they probably can't be used as a basis of implementation anyway.

      There are some (non-software) patents that cover large portions of a whole product that I think may be beneficial uses of the patent system, but patents that cover only small components within a device are really not beneficial to society because no one is going to spend the time looking for a patent that covers what they want to do, and those who infringe almost always do so by independently inventing something without realising it was already patented.

      I support the idea of having to pay an inventor in situations where their invention has saved you from the R&D expense of developing it yourself, but I don't support the notion that you should have to pay them just because you inadvertently invented the same thing as them (and haence already had the R&D expense yourself.)

    2. Re:If abolishing patents won't happen... by Rockoon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In many cases patents are the alternative to trade secrets. Many companies still choose to rely on trade secrets when the technology was discovered somewhat accidentally

      Indeed. This is the difference between patents on manufacturing technology and patents on consumer technology.

      The patents on manufacturing technology were the original intent of patents. The idea being that a company could trade knowledge of their manufacturing techniques for a limited exclusive on their use, so that all industries could later take advantage of greater efficiencies.

      With patents on consumer technology the trade-off justification does not apply, because the public already has access to the device and can thus reverse engineer it. This form of patent is simply a government enforced monopoly that otherwise would not exist.

      The really crazy part is that after this first bastardization of patents to apply to consumer technology, that then they (recently started to) allow insignificant changes in materials to usher in a new patent, such as software patents being renewed for "..on a mobile device." While the first bastardization is almost debatable, this second bastardization is so way over the top that its very hard to debate its justification with a straight face.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    3. Re:If abolishing patents won't happen... by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Blah blah blah. Stupid.

      Joe Engineer doesn't need a patent to contract out the manufacture of his New Shiny. He has contract law, which is considerably stronger, considerably better understood, and considerably fairer than patents. He can approach a manufacturer, give them the highest of high level descriptions to ask if they can manufacture the device and are interested in doing so, and if they say yes, he can (and nearly always does already, unless he's stupid), sign contracts with the manufacturer. Things like Nondisclosure Agreements and Noncompete contracts and exclusive manufacturing rights contracts. Then and only then does he reveal his blueprints and bills of materials and assembly procedures. Nowhere in any of that is a patent required to protect Joe's interests.

      If they say no, and then rush off to try to duplicate what he just described, he has lost nothing, because ideas are worthless, and all he described was an idea. Converting an idea into a product requires the aforementioned blueprints and BOMs and procedures, and while a very large manufacturer might be able to rush something through to produce their own versions of all of those things quicker than Joe did it alone, it's physically impossible for them to do it before Joe does, because Joe has already done it.

      This is where many of us have a severe problem with the current patent system as it is practiced. Patents don't have those things necessary to actually manufacture the implementation. They have an obfuscated worthless pile of crap words created by a lawyer for the sole purpose of encompassing as much of the idea as possible, while using weasel wording that manages to squeak by the alleged requirement in the law that patents can only patent implementations and not ideas. Decades of weasel wording has stretched that requirement so far out of shape that it's unrecognizable in any case.

      Also, this is Slashdot. Any number of us are IN manufacturing, and understand it quite well. Shut up.

  2. pharma? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    you're going to call out pharma as an example where the patent process provides a positive influence?

    may as well defend the patenting of gene sequences. or business models.

    the whole thing is corrupt

    1. Re:pharma? by davester666 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Perhaps then they should stop gaming the system, like patenting a drug for one use, then just before the patent expires, they patent it for another use. Voila, twice patent protection now, as others can't make the drug for the first use, because it might also be used for the second one. Lather, rinse, repeat.

      Also, continue to ignore repeated gaming of the so-called 'testing' phase, where because the costs are so large, there is incredible pressure to ensure the results result in the drug going to market.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
  3. Re:War to end all wars by Maho+Shoujo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What a shame, in your rush to get the first post, you mistook patents for copyright. Sadly, this is not the case. The industries that (ab)use patents are much, much bigger than a few pathetic media companies that don't even total up to a trillion dollars a year in profit. Removing patents would really anger manufacturing, engineering firms, software companies, and especially pharmaceutical companies. Do they influence the government more than the banks? I can't say, but they have the advantage, as they only have to convince congress to continue not changing a thing.

  4. I guess he read my sig by fustakrakich · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Why just patents? Copyright must go too.

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    1. Re:I guess he read my sig by king+neckbeard · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Copyleft is primarily a hack to counter copyright. There would be some potential issues with copyleft licenses being unenforceable, but it would remove countless roadblocks. People can still voluntarily cooperate, and that makes up the lion's share of FOSS development.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  5. Re:Drug Patents by robot256 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This. If drug development were offloaded to socialized nonprofit organizations, they would have less incentive to falsify results or push drugs with minimal improvements as "the next big thing". Plus, maybe we would have less of this ridiculous "Talk to your doctor about Xyanoflexanol. May cause blindness, nuclear holocaust and explosive diarrhea" advertising.

  6. Re:Drug Patents by anon+mouse-cow-aard · · Score: 4, Insightful

    yes. It is extremely expensive to create new forms of anti-depressants, and treatments for erectile dysfunction... meanwhile tropical diseases don't have a business case. If that's all patents cand fund, it would be more straightforward to fund merit-based research into worthwhile causes directly with taxes (NIH), rather than have the market invent more profitable problems to address and completely avoid the ones that would do the world the most good. ... http://canadasworld.wordpress.com/2009/11/29/orphan-drugs-for-orphan-diseases-the-non-profit-pharmaceutical-model/

  7. Re:Drug Patents by penix1 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It takes years of testing to get a drug approved by the FDA, and that costs big big money to do. You get the drug approved by the FDA and then a chemist comes and makes the exact same thing, and your years of investment into research and development and clinical trials of that drug are going to not be paid off. Somebody would essentially walk the path that you made and they would reap the same benefits just simply by copying what you have done.

    That would be true if they were spending their own money on the research. They aren't though. They are spending public funds from the NIH then patenting the results and making obscene profits on it. Want to fix it? Simple. Make NIH funding contingent on royalty free results. After all, it is our money making these companies rich.

    --
    This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
  8. Re:there's a reason for patents by robot256 · · Score: 4, Informative

    The ideal system of government is a benevolent dictator. One person acting with consistent policy and absolute power putting the interests of the majority above special interests and himself. While it is possible to find such a person once every few centuries, it is impossible to maintain this system of government because a bad dictator will inevitably rise and send everything to hell. Every society in the world has gone through the motions of trying to "fix" their monarchy, and suffered revolution after revolution "fixing" their system trying to find a better single ruler. But now, we have realized it was always a losing battle and abandoned the monarchy altogether. Representative governments may be inefficient and suboptimal, but they are stable for the long term and do not require violent "fixes" periodically.

    The argument presented by this article is that patent systems behave in the same way. While a "fixed" patent system would be ideal, its corruption inevitably recurs no matter how many times we actually manage to "fix" it because of how it inherently distributes money and influence among the concerned parties. The only solution, therefore, is to abolish the system entirely and use a completely different paradigm to produce suboptimal but stable results. In many industries that may in fact be laissez-faire, while in others we may need different, more targeted approaches.

  9. Total abolition of all patents... by Kojow777 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Wow, someone should patent that idea!

  10. Re:Drug Patents by shaitand · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Aside from just abolishing patents, IP should be abolished in all forms for anything produced with public funds. Get rid of the contractor bug.

  11. Re:We Need a New Patent System Based On Freedom by JustOK · · Score: 4, Funny

    You can't. It's still under copyright.

    --
    rewriting history since 2109
  12. The right to a patent monopoly is not fundamental by Zigurd · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The right to a patent monopoly is not a fundamental human right.

    The US Constitution is written with a specific sense regarding rights. It grants no rights because it takes the point of view that you have human rights, with, or without any government's say so. Instead, the Constitution grants powers to the government.

    The right to a patent monopoly is not one of the rights the Constitution assumes you have. That's because, in the eyes of the authors of that document, it's not really a basic human right. Instead, the government is explicitly empowered to grant patent and copyright monopolies. And that power is conditional: "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."

    If it isn't functioning as intended, is it still legitimate?

  13. Re:Drug Patents by Lorien_the_first_one · · Score: 4, Informative

    Boldrine and Levine have show rather conclusively that drug development tends to go where the patents are not in their book, Against Intellectual Monopoly (http://levine.sscnet.ucla.edu/general/intellectual/against.htm). They also effectively demonstrate that the introduction of new drugs actually slowed with the introduction of patent protection in any country where patent protection is introduced.

    For some reason, the assumption that patents foster innovation is taken as a fact without looking at the evidence amassed so far. I think it's grand that Boldrine and Levine lend a voice to skepticism of the "patents foster innovation" mantra, but I wonder, just how did they get on the board in a district of the Federal Reserve?

    --
    The diversity and expression of human opinion is essential to human survival.