Slashdot Mirror


You Can't Print a Gun If You Have No 3D Printer

FatLittleMonkey writes "You may recall Cody Wilson's project to create a 3D printed gun, mentioned previously on Slashdot. Well, the Defense Distributed project has suffered a decidedly non-technical setback, with printer manufacturer Stratasys revoking the lease and repossessing the printer (presumably prying it from plastic models of Cory's cold dead hands). According to New Scientist, the manufacturer cited his lack of a federal firearms manufacturer's license as their reason for the repossession, adding that it does not knowingly allow its printers to be used for illegal purposes." Homemade firearms are not (in the U.S.) per se illegal on a federal basis, though states have varying degrees of regulation. It would be helpful if anyone more conversant with firearms law than me can point out what law or laws this project might be breaking.

42 of 632 comments (clear)

  1. the message is clear: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    if you're going to print gray-area items, print them quietly, and announce after your beta is complete.

    1. Re:the message is clear: by fustakrakich · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Very true... But the most important part of this story, missing from the summary, is that this printer was leased, not sold.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    2. Re:the message is clear: by newcastlejon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you're going to print something illicit, do it quietly and own the printer you're using.

      --
      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
    3. Re:the message is clear: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      > printer manufacturer Stratasys revoking the lease and repossessing the printer

    4. Re:the message is clear: by wfWebber · · Score: 5, Funny

      Exactly. Printers don't kill projects, people do.

      --
      Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway. -- Andrew S. Tanenbaum
    5. Re:the message is clear: by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yeah, but counterfeit bills don't kill people, guns kill- no, wait, guns don't counterfeit... people... and, um, kill counterfeit people, guns....

    6. Re:the message is clear: by interkin3tic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm guessing this was done because the printer manufacturer is worried about the press that would hurt their buisiness, not because it's "illicit" or anything like that.

      "Coming up on your shitty cable news program, TERRORIST PEDOPHILES can print out NEARLY ANY AUTOMATIC DEATH WEAPON AT HOME! Some experts (on making ridiculous statements) suggest they could print a NUCLEAR BOMB!!! Are YOUR children safe? NO THEY'RE FUCKING NOT BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE ANY LAWS AGAINST IT AND PEOPLE ARE ALREADY PRINTING OFF GUNS (sorta)"

      Which, they probably have legitimate reason to be concerned about that. Those stories will pop up, and people will write their congressmen who will suggest we need government regulation over what 3D things you can print off. And there are industries who have interests in people not being able to easily print off their own potentially copyright-infringing items. And it's too much to hope that such people won't be selfish and won't use such FUD to kill 3D printing before it gets off the ground.

      Still, I'd prefer people to deal head on with stupid bullshit FUD when it comes up rather than punishing individual customers who are driving the field forward.

    7. Re:the message is clear: by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It isn't illicit. A manufacture's license is only required if you "sell" your product. The only problem would have been if the gun was illegal in that jurisdiction in the first place. Since Cody is a student of law in Texas. So, since it's Texas there's almost certainly no legal issue here and since he's a law student he'd stand a pretty good chance of knowing one way or another anyway. This has nothing to do with illegality and everything to do with Stratasys being fearful of getting a bad reputation as an enabler of terrorist groups and crazies.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
  2. Politics by onyxruby · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What's next, refusing to sell printers to people because their for / against gay marriage? This is a tool and he was using it for legal purposes. What the manufacturer did was no different than any other kind of censorship. Deplorable.

    1. Re:Politics by vlm · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, this is not "censorship". This is Toyota reclaiming your car because you drove to a bar and they [Toyota] don't have a liquor license.

      Not even close. More like Toyota voiding the lease and demanding the car back because the lease says "no entering car races" and you publicly state you're entering a car race with your leased Toyota.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    2. Re:Politics by Nadaka · · Score: 5, Informative

      Thing is, federal firearms laws are mostly about the sale of firearms. You can make them for your own use all day long and not break the federal law. But if you plan to sell them, you need to get serial numbers for them. And for that you need to register.

    3. Re:Politics by CanHasDIY · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, this is not "censorship". This is Toyota reclaiming your car because you drove to a bar and they [Toyota] don't have a liquor license.

      Not even close. More like Toyota voiding the lease and demanding the car back because the lease says "no entering car races" and you publicly state you're entering a car race with your leased Toyota.

      Still not quite right; more like, Toyota repossesses your car because you say you want to enter it in a race, and Toyota is under the impression that a certain type of license you don't posses is legally required for said race, even though there is no such licensing requirement.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    4. Re:Politics by PortHaven · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually, it's not...

      As long as they are spec'd legal. They just cannot be transferred.

    5. Re:Politics by mapsjanhere · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Your username says it all... For the record, as long as you obey rules on minimal length, maximal caliber and marking it you can make your own firearms all day long (from a Federal point of view at least). You cannot legally SELL or TRADE them, but making is legal. You can even buy 80% kits that are mostly machined for you and come with guides on where to drill the remaining holes, and you're still, under Federal law, legally making your own gun. And you don't have to register it with the federal government either. The only question in this case was the invisible weapons rule which makes it illegal to manufacture a weapon for the purpose of avoiding metal detectors which an all-printed gun might trigger.

      --
      I'm aging rapidly, I bought a new game and had no idea if my machine was good for it.
    6. Re:Politics by afidel · · Score: 4, Informative

      BS.

      Q: Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle?
      With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a non-licensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non-sporting semi-automatic rifle or non-sporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machine gun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a Federal or State agency.

      [18 U.S.C. 922(o) and (r), 26 U.S.C. 5822, 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62 and 479.105] link

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    7. Re:Politics by 91degrees · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Thing is, when you have to be this specific, the analogy no longer has any purpose, and you might as well describe the situation.

    8. Re:Politics by Shrike82 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, this is not "censorship". This is Toyota reclaiming your car because you drove to a bar and they [Toyota] don't have a liquor license.

      Not even close. More like Toyota voiding the lease and demanding the car back because the lease says "no entering car races" and you publicly state you're entering a car race with your leased Toyota.

      Still not quite right; more like, Toyota repossesses your car because you say you want to enter it in a race, and Toyota is under the impression that a certain type of license you don't posses is legally required for said race, even though there is no such licensing requirement.

      We're getting closer. It's more like Toyota repossesses your car because you say you want to enter it in a race known for it's poor safety record for spectators, and Toyota is under the impression that a certain type of license you don't posses is legally required for said race, even though there is no such licensing requirement, but they don't want their brand associated with any negative press if any spectators get mowed down by their car.

      --
      You can advertise in this sig from as little as £99.99 a month!
    9. Re:Politics by heefeneet · · Score: 4, Funny

      BS.

      Q: Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle? With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a non-licensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non-sporting semi-automatic rifle or non-sporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machine gun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a Federal or State agency.

      [18 U.S.C. 922(o) and (r), 26 U.S.C. 5822, 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62 and 479.105] link

      Just curious (target shooter in gun-unfriendly Scotland here), what exactly makes it as "sporting" firearm? Does it give the target a 5 minute head start or something?

    10. Re:Politics by funwithBSD · · Score: 4, Funny

      Reading Slashdotters talk about guns is like listening to a bunch of nerds talk about sex.

      Oh, wait...

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    11. Re:Politics by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 4, Informative

      "You're legal if you fill out BATFE Form 1 - Application to Make and Register a Firearm and pay the tax (which is really the core of the issue.) The home-made firearm must be properly marked, and it's yours forever. You may not sell it, give it away, etc. It must comply with a bunch of other rules too - not an automatic weapon, not a short-barrel shotgun, etc."

      Parts of this statement are misleading, and parts untrue.

      With a few exceptions, you do NOT need a Federal permit to manufacture a gun for personal use. Somebody quoted the ATF webpage above, where it clearly states that. (And I have seen legal analyses of that same page. The language may be a bit wonky but it still says you don't need a permit.)

      True, you may not sell it or give it away.

      "It must comply with a bunch of other rules too - not an automatic weapon, not a short-barrel shotgun, etc."

      False. It need not necessarily comply. Again, the ATF's own statement says that "non-sporting" firearms (a sawed-off shotgun is a "non-sporting" firearm) can be manufactured for personal use. However, if it is an "NFA" firearm, THEN you must pay the tax and get a permit.

    12. Re:Politics by Zcar · · Score: 5, Informative

      Per the ATF: "For your information, per provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, an unlicensed individual may make a “firearm” as defined in the GCA for his own personal use, but not for sale or distribution."

      http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html

      So as long as you make it for yourself and don't sell it or give it away, it's Federally legal.

    13. Re:Politics by Dishevel · · Score: 5, Informative

      It was tested.
      When Glock first came out there were articles full of "The Plastic Pistol" that bad people would use to get past security.
      The spring is big. the barrel is a very large chunk of metal that is hard to miss.
      It is a bunch of people trying their best to scare you. That is all.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    14. Re:Politics by RevDisk · · Score: 4, Informative

      Theoretically yes. FFL's have a "bound book" of all firearms they process, with some exceptions. Gunsmiths can buy or make firearms unrelated to their business. If they are smart, while not legally required, they keep a journal (in the accounting sense of the word) of their personal firearms activities.

      This is a regular issue. If you have a Type 1 FFL, you can sell firearms but not MAKE firearms. You need a Type 7 FFL to make and sell firearms. In addition, you must process FAET. That's the 10% Firearms and Ammunition Excise Tax, processed by the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau at the Treasury Department. The BATFE does not process FAET. Why, I have no idea.

      So, if a gunsmith has a Type 1 FFL, he can legally make non-NFA weapons for personal noncommercial usage so long as he complies with State and Local law. But if he's intelligent, he goes to great lengths to very distinctively separate personal and business.

      Firearm laws tend to be very complex. Add in a lot of case law (court decisions). Then add in subjective and changing BATFE determinations. Often, any combination of the above may be contradicting any combination of the above. It is very cumbersome.

    15. Re:Politics by Bryansix · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'd just like to point out here that Ted Kennedy's car killed more people then Charlton Heston's Gun (or my gun for that matter).

  3. Re:Need federal license by tmosley · · Score: 5, Informative

    No, you don't. You only need a license if you are manufacturing arms FOR SALE. People make homemade guns for fun all the time.

  4. Re:Need federal license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    False:

    Q: Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle?

            With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a non-licensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non-sporting semi-automatic rifle or non-sporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machine gun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a Federal or State agency.

            [18 U.S.C. 922(o) and (r), 26 U.S.C. 5822, 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62 and 479.105]
    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/general.html#gca-manufacturing

  5. Machine tools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How is a 3D printer any different than a lathe, grinder or a milling machine?

    1. Re:Machine tools by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 5, Funny

      lathes, grinders and millers all are subtractive processes.

      the 3d printer is additi-

      oh wait, you didn't meant it that way, did you?

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    2. Re:Machine tools by EmagGeek · · Score: 5, Funny

      If you make a gun with a lathe, grinder, and milling machine, the gun will actually work.

  6. Defensive play by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    If you read between the lines of Stratasys' statement, the company's president clearly says:

    "For the love of god please don't give us this kind of press. If we don't shut this down now I'm going to have Homeland Security on, over and in my ass. Don't ever use gun and printed in the same sentence again. My hands are too delicate for jail. Why are you doing this to me?"

  7. Re:Overreaction. by QuasiSteve · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Wired seemed to have a better write-up of potential legal angles:
    http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/10/3d-gun-blocked/

    Regardless of legal angles, though, Stratasys made it clear that this is not what they want their machines used for, and that is that. If he bought it, it might be different - but he was basically just renting it. I'm sure he can get a different 3D printer to work with.

  8. Should have made a backup by Hatta · · Score: 5, Funny

    The first thing you should print when you get a 3d printer, is another 3d printer.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  9. Printing Money by ZombieBraintrust · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you are leasing a color copier or press. They will pull the copier if your using it to print counterfet money. This is not censorship at all.

    1. Re:Printing Money by CanHasDIY · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you are leasing a color copier or press. They will pull the copier if your using it to print counterfet money. This is not censorship at all.

      Slight problem with your analogy: Counterfeiting money is illegal, whereas manufacturing firearms for personal use (i.e. not for sale) is not.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    2. Re:Printing Money by CanHasDIY · · Score: 5, Informative

      Sure. You SAY it's not illegal. How confident are you in that? Are you willing to go to jail to get the opportunity to prove it?

      I don't say it's not ilegal, 18 U.S.C. 922(o) and (r), 26 U.S.C. 5822, 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62 and 479.105 does.

      Gun control law is illogical, inconsistent, and subject to huge penalties and stigmas (do you want 'arrested on weapons charges, 2012' on your resume, even if you are cleared?).

      FYI, you are only legally required to list convictions on job applications.

      There's a reason companys like eBay and craigslist shy away from allowing even very obviously legal items--even gun accesories like holsters--to be traded on their sites--our lords at the ATF have no sense of humor.

      Well, you would have a point there, if your little anecdote had an ounce of truth to it.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    3. Re:Printing Money by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 4, Informative

      "Transferring a forging or casting that is so well dimensioned and therefore in a condition where it can be used without modification in a firearm is illegal. As its a completed receiver regardless if its been machined or not."

      The problem with your argument is that a printer file is NOT a receiver.

      It is only an engineering drawing converted to machine-readable format. It is nothing more than a description of the object, which is perfectly legal. You can transfer descriptions and engineering drawings and plans all day long. There is NOTHING illegal about it.

      Further, it is nothing like having a complete receiver from a work standpoint. Far from it. You are actually manufacturing the entire thing.

      Not just an analogy but a concrete example: I could send you a CNC file so that with the right machine, you could simply load the file and mill an entire receiver out of a block of aluminum. It doesn't matter that the machine is doing all the work! The work is still being done. You are manufacturing the entire piece.

      Further, I don't even need to send you a CNC file. I can send you a CAD file -- an engineering drawing -- and you can convert it yourself with the proper software to CNC instructions.

      There is nothing different about a 3D printer. It is simply a different method of manufacturing.

  10. Re:Overreaction. by Type44Q · · Score: 5, Informative

    An automatic rifle is not a machine gun according the the law, afaik. They are a separate class of weapon.

    I believe that an "automatic rifle" means an auto-loading rifle which is the technical term for a "semi-automatic" weapon - i.e. the vast majority of rifles legally sold for civilian use in the modern area.

    A "machine gun" is a fully automatic weapon and those are illegal for private individuals to own, period, unless they're made before 1986 and you've paid for a Federal "tax stamp," which I believe is $200 (I imagine they're still illegal for private citizens to own in certain jurisdictions; obviously, Kalifornia comes to mind). Corporations as well as certain manufacturers and dealers, however, can own fully automatic weapons made after 1986 but obviously certain rules apply.

    The technical term for a "sawed-off" shotgun is an SBS (short-barreled shotgun) which is a smoothbore longarm with a barrel less than 18" in length (or, I believe, a total length - including the stock - of less than 26"). These also require a $200 "tax stamp" to the Feds.

    Here's some additional useful info, from here:

    "Sporting" Purposes

    Here's where things get a little tricky. Some rifles, such as the Saiga line, are imported for sporting purposes in a particular configuration. Generally, that means that do not incorporate any of the "evil" features that are typically associated with so-called "semi-automatic assault weapons". Chapter 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations Section 478.11 defines these SAWs. You can read the law, here. Specific examples of these features include:

    - High capacity (greater than 10 round for rifles, 5 rounds for shotgun) magazines
    - Pistol grip attachment
    - Folding buttstock
    - Muzzle device/attachment (to include a threaded barrel capable of receiving a device)
    - Bayonet lugs

    If your rifle or shotgun incorporates those features, it no longer is considered "suitable for sporting purposes".

    Assembling Semiauto Rifles and Shotguns

    If your rifle or shotgun is subject to 922R, you must now make sure that it is in compliance with the regulations governing the assembly of semiautomatic rifles and shotguns. That is covered in Title 27 Chapter 1 Section 178.39. Click here to see the text of the law. It states :

    (a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.

    Paragraph (C) defines the following parts as "countable" under the law:

    (1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings *
    (2) Barrels *
    (3) Barrel extensions
    (4) Mounting blocks (trunions) *
    (5) Muzzle attachments *
    (6) Bolts *
    (7) Bolt carriers *
    (8) Operating rods
    (9) Gas pistons *
    (10) Trigger housings
    (11) Triggers *
    (12) Hammers *
    (13) Sears
    (14) Disconnectors *
    (15) Buttstocks *
    (16) Pistol grips *
    (17) Forearms, handguards *
    (18) Magazine bodies *
    (19) Followers *
    (20) Floorplates *

    These 20 items are referred to with the term "compliance parts". There are lots of other components that go into a weapon, but there are the only ones that count in terms of complying with the law.

  11. Re:Overreaction. by WillAdams · · Score: 5, Informative

    In the context and the language of the time, ``well-regulated militia'' simply meant one trained to the firearm and other drills of the time.

    Moreover, the membership of the militia is quite a bit larger than most people believe:

    http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/10C13.txt

            The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied
            males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section
            313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a
            declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States
            and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the
            National Guard.
                (b) The classes of the militia are -
                    (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard
                and the Naval Militia; and
                    (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of
                the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the
                Naval Militia.

    and just in case someone thinks there're weasel words in section 313 of title 32:

    (a) To be eligible for original enlistment in the National Guard,
    a person must be at least 17 years of age and under 45, or under 64
    years of age and a former member of the Regular Army, Regular Navy,
    Regular Air Force, or Regular Marine Corps. To be eligible for
    reenlistment, a person must be under 64 years of age.
    (b) To be eligible for appointment as an officer of the National
    Guard, a person must -
    (1) be a citizen of the United States; and
    (2) be at least 18 years of age and under 64.

    William

    --
    Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
  12. Re:the message is clear: MAKE IT !!! by crazyjj · · Score: 4, Funny

    Forget the RP printers...or if you want to play, just have an RP job shop make your parts.

    Yeah, but that wouldn't be cool and hip.

    --
    What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
  13. Re:the message is clear: MAKE IT !!! by jythie · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think the idea wasn't just to print a gun, but to test the limits of a particular emergent technology and how it can be applied to the specific domain.

    If the goal was just to get guns, there are shops all over the place.

  14. Re:the message is clear: MAKE IT !!! by locopuyo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Take a look at Switzerland. They have amoung the highest amount of firearms per person but the lowest gun crime rate.

  15. More likely he's worried about conspiracy charges. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm guessing this was done because the printer manufacturer is worried about the press that would hurt their buisiness, not because it's "illicit" or anything like that.

    IMHO he's far more likely to be worried about being convicted on conspiracy charges and spending most of the rest of his life in federal PMITA prison if even one person who makes a gun using information from this project breaks even one tiny regulation.

    The federal firearms regulations are intended to ban most weapons manufacturing and transfer except under very controlled conditions. But the federal government didn't have the constitutional authorization to write such laws - so they were written as a tax. Because they're a tax, the courts have carved out this one loophole. But the federal agencies charged with enforcing the de facto ban does everything it can to find a way to prevent the use of this loophole.

    The primary agency in question is the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (BATF) - recently expanded to "and explosives (BATFE). They are notorious for their "zeal", general incompetence, extreme violence, willingness to bend the rules to make an arrest, and for prosecuting obviously failing cases until the accused is bankrupted and loses by default. They have put literally tens of thousands of people in federal prison for minor paperwork errors or claims that fender washers or pieces of muffler tubing are parts of silencers, or that dummy grenades are being made live. They have raided collectors (often licensed as "dealers" because it's WAY cheaper that way) because their own paperwork was fouled - or for no discernible reason. In one incident they threw a pregnant woman up against a wall (she miscarried shortly after) and deliberately stomped a kitten to death, just to show their power. They set up the situation in Ruby Ridge that ended with a federal sniper shooting a woman holding her baby, and in Waco where a church camp was burned to the ground - in both cases over a dispute about "a $200 tax". They are referred to as "F troop" by other federal law agencies. The "Jackbooted Thugs" ad campaign was the NRA's most effective recruiting aid.

    One of their favorite tricks is to have an agent pose as a curious teenager and ask someone at a gun show how to make a gun shoot full-auto. If he tells them, they arrest him for "conspiracy to violate the federal firearms act". (First amendment? What's that?) You can bet that they'd hang similar charges on the people running a company that leased a machine to a project that is attempting to enable the general population to sidestep the same laws easily and cheaply. It looks like the operator of the company is betting that way, too.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way