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Parent Questions Mandatory High School Chemistry

Ollabelle writes "David Bernstein, a nonprofit executive who lives in Gaithersburg, Md., has two sons, ages 7 and 15. He has previously written about how schools fail students with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. Now he turns his attention to mandated curriculum in public schools, and argues that his sons shouldn't be forced to take any science class." From the article: "There’s a concept in economics called 'opportunity costs,' which you may not have learned about because you were taking chemistry instead of economics. Opportunity costs are the sacrifices we make when we choose one alternative over another. ... When you force my son to take chemistry (and several other subjects, this is not only about chemistry), you are not allowing him that same time to take a public speaking course, which he could be really good at, or music, or political science, or creative writing, or HTML coding for websites."

22 of 866 comments (clear)

  1. Translation by crazyjj · · Score: 5, Insightful

    My kid sucks at chemistry and, like all pussy-ass parents today, I don't have the heart to tell him that he's not incredible at everything (and don't want to risk him finding out by taking a class where he doesn't get an automatic "A").

    --
    What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    1. Re:Translation by ciderbrew · · Score: 5, Informative

      Tell him he can use the knowledge to brew alcohol, make drugs and bombs. It really is taught in the most boring way possible. Learn the boring bits to make the exciting bits happen.

    2. Re:Translation by rsmither · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't think this has to be the case at all. It is true that there are a lot of courses that we force students to take, especially at the high school and college levels, that won't really help them in their career choice. For example, when was the last time you needed to convert moles to something else (how many just went to google to find the formulas)?

      I would agree that there should be a basic understanding, but really, most of what you need to know for daily life could be done in a month or two at most freeing up time for other subjects.

      Granted, I have no idea how this would play out in a normal high school setting. But as I see it, we aren't exactly doing the greatest job teaching skills that are needed to compete in today's world and perhaps more choice/customization of a learning curriculum would produce more viable people for the workforce.

    3. Re:Translation by Vanderhoth · · Score: 5, Funny

      You forgot baking! Cookies and cake are the two most important things to use chemistry for.

    4. Re:Translation by Unknown+Lamer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Conversion of the starches in malted grain to sugar is certainly a chemical process: you have to maintain the pH just so, the temperatures just right, to encourage particular kinds of conversion by various enzymes. Adjusting mineral concetrations and such in the water is also (not really intense) chemistry. Making wine involves even more chemistry: free SO_2 testing, pH adjustments, total acidity control, etc. involve lots of reagents and I found the basic recollection of even just learning how to e.g. do titrations from high school chemistry made things a lot easier.

      There's biology involved too in the fermentation process itself, and hey! Encourages 'em to learn that too ;)

      --

      HAL 7000, fewer features than the HAL 9000, but just as homicidal!
    5. Re:Translation by GungaDan · · Score: 5, Funny

      This summer I had to convert a dozen or so moles to mulch. I tried to convert them to cat food but the reaction failed for insufficient feline catalyst.

      --
      Eloi are stupid, throw morlocks at them!
    6. Re:Translation by borcharc · · Score: 5, Interesting

      My parents did this to me when I was a kid because the teachers convinced them I would be unable to learn math, chem, etc due to an alleged learning disability. It took me years after high school to get caught up on 10 years of missed math courses. I still hate them for it...

    7. Re:Translation by Random2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Knee-jerk reaction detected! Didn't RTFA to boot! No wonder slashdot's moderators love you!

      That's not what he's saying at all, but the poorly worded ./ summary and article set up so people, like yourself, can flame him easily without actually understanding what he's saying. He's not talking about his kid sucking at chemistry, nor is he blaming anyone for it, or even saying his kid should be good at it. What he's saying is that a distinct lack of variation in public education will only harm students in the long run. Perhaps high-school is a long time ago for you, but looking at the current American curriculum shows a very distinct lack of variability. For a personal example, the only time I actually got to choose a class I wanted to take in high-school was around senior year, every other class was part of some 2, 3, or 4, year plan that every student had to go through in order to graduate. 3 years of science, 4 years of English classes, 3 of a foreign language, 3 for history/civic involvement, etc. There was barely any time to do what I wanted to do.

      This is not to say that students shouldn't be exposed to a variety of courses. That diversity allows for a students to explore a range of topics and find one they're interested in. But, once they've found that subject, they should be allowed to pursue it. If a kid wants to be an auto mechanic for the rest of his life, then let hem learn about that. If they're into business, then let them take the courses about business. Locking them into a 'standardized program' doesn't magically make them a successful adult or magically teach them the skills they need to know in order to be a member of society.

      Basically,a 'cookie-cutter' approach is not the proper way to teach, but that's how the system is currently designed.

      --
      "Our goal each year should be to increase the number of goals we set for ourselves!"
    8. Re:Translation by Minwee · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Biology is really chemistry.

      Chemistry is really physics.

      Physics is really math.

      And math is really hard.

    9. Re:Translation by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Exactly. The point of teaching sciences, and indeed even home economics, is to expose students to a wide range of knowledge. Obviously most people are not going to go on to be industrial chemists or biologists, but still, even passing knowledge of a subject allows at least some ability to evaluate, and more importantly encourages some ability to generalize.

      What this guy is looking for is an excuse to remove his kids from hard courses, make their lives easier, and that's just about the biggest mistake at all. Basically the guy is saying "My kids are so fucked up, all I can expect is that they'll be able to blabber to a crowd or make web pages." I feel sorry for those kids.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    10. Re:Translation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Biology is really chemistry.

      Chemistry is really physics.

      Physics is really math.

      And math is really hard.

      Lets go shopping!

    11. Re:Translation by SkimTony · · Score: 5, Interesting

      In my AP Chemistry class in High School, one wistful afternoon late in the year one of my classmates asked, "How do Drano bombs work?"

      After a quick explanation of what a Drano bomb was, the teacher turned around, wrote the replacement reaction for the aluminum and sodium in solution, and instructed us to calculate the change in enthalpy for the reaction (this actually lined up remarkably well with the curriculum). It was very instructional.

    12. Re:Translation by thomasw_lrd · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This isn't just a chemistry problem though. All my kids are learning are how to pass a test. Not how to learn. They have no problem solving skills, unless I teach them. They aren't even taught real long division anymore. While I don't find long division in and of itself a useful discipline, the problem solving that is learned in learning long division is very important (at least IMO) for the rest of math.

      It's like geometry. Proofs were stupid in high school, but when I took abstract algebra, I wished I had learned more. While I understand every student will not need to learn abstract algebra or even how to do partial fractional derivatives, the problem solving aspect is the most important.

    13. Re:Translation by Smidge204 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Four sheep, three pairs of gloves. Avoid cross-contamination. Hmm...

      Put on pair #1 of gloves.

      Put on pair #2 on top of pair #1. Do whatever it is you're doing to sheep #1. (I won't judge!)

      Remove pair #2, leave pair #1 on. Put on pair #3. Do whatever to sheep #2.

      Remove pair #3, turn inside-out and put them back on over pair #1.Do whatever to sheep #3.

      Remove pair #3 and discard. Turn pair #2 inside-out and put them back on over pair #1. Do whatever to sheep #4.

      Remove and discard pair #2 and pair #1.

      You don't learn practical problem solving like that in Public Speaking class! :)
      =Smidge=

  2. Let's Play the "If Only You'd Taken" Game by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Funny

    Now I don’t begrudge chemistry, which has brought forth many of the great inventions of our time, from the pain killer I took an hour ago to the diet soda I’m sipping on now (I’m actually sipping on Scotch. In fact, my very own mother, who if I am lucky will never lay eyes on this article, is a chemist, and believes that chemistry is the most noble of human pursuits and doesn’t understand how I, a former philosophy major, was able to eke out a living.

    And if you wouldn't have wasted your time on that public speaking course and instead used that opportunity cost to take a class in a Lisp language like Scheme you'd understand why your failure to close that left parenthesis is driving me bat shit insane right now.

    --
    My work here is dung.
  3. It's not just about chemistry. by ZorinLynx · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Chemistry class isn't just about chemistry. It also teaches critical thinking and problem solving skills. Having to balance chemical reactions, though it may be useless to 95% of people in the real world, is one example of a skill that improves one's thinking ability when they learn it.

    I also feel it's essential for people to know the basics on how the world works. High school chemistry isn't exactly hard.

  4. That's what college/university is for... by Assmasher · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...not elementary, middle, and high school curricula.

    You may just have to accept that your kids are going to suck at things.

    Think of all the money you'll save from buying your own "Congratulations on 10th place!" ribbons.

    --
    Loading...
  5. Makes good points by ranton · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Before jumping to some assumption that he is a bible thumping moron (I made the same assumption at first), you should read the article. He doing make very valid points. He actually says he would like to replace full classes on topics like chemistry with several survey classes that expose students to many subjects before they choose the ones they are interested in. This sounds like a great idea. I was a physics major in college, and even I found my high school Physics class hardly useful at all. Not nearly enough depth to gain useful knowledge, and those who will never use it weren't paying attention anyway.

    --
    -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
  6. Re:Dear sir.. by MightyYar · · Score: 5, Informative

    Yeah, I was going to say, you want your kid to take public speaking? Behold! Not everything needs to happen in school.

    Besides, we don't need to cram every damn thing into high school. I took a public speaking course in high school. It was an elective. There were other electives I would have liked to take as well... I took them in (drumroll, please...) college! I also took a worthless Chemistry class in high school - but the teacher was horrible, not the subject (I think our class collectively scored a 40% on the state Chemistry test).

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  7. Opportunity Cost Concept Taught By Mastercard by guttentag · · Score: 5, Funny

    Chemistry class: 39 minutes per day
    Teaching a kid a variety of subjects so he will have something to talk about when he does take public speaking in college: 18 years
    Cleaning up chemicals spilled by your ADD kid who wasn't paying attention: 6 minutes
    Getting acquainted with the flow rate of the emergency eyewash station: 5 minutes
    Teaching a kid that ignoring science can be hazardous to your health: Priceless

    There are some things you will never find time for. For everything else, there are pretentious self-important jerks like David Bernstein.

  8. Heinlein on (Over) Specialization by fallen1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've dropped this quote on /. before in a similar conversation, but it applies just as much if not MORE here:

    “A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”
      Robert A. Heinlein

    --

    Dream as if you'll live forever.
    Live as if you'll die tomorrow.
    ~Anonymous~

    1. Re:Heinlein on (Over) Specialization by jedidiah · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A lot of that stuff Heinlein mentioned either falls into basic survival skills or knowledge you need in order to not be taken advantage of by specialists. Even if you outsource something, you need to have enough of a clue to be able to judge the results.

      Willful ignorance is an open invitation to those that would see to take advantage of you.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.