Slashdot Mirror
Ask Slashdot: Rectifying Nerd Arrogance?
An anonymous reader writes "Like some Slashdot users, I began attending university last month for computer science. The experience represents my first time away from home and I'm almost constantly with my peers, many of whom are also computer science students. Recently, I have become cognizant of the many negative opinions associated with a 'normal' person's perspective of what a nerd is like. Conversing with my college computer science peers (many of whom are quite nerdy), I have noticed that many of them are extremely arrogant. Upon introspection, I have come to the realization that I am also very similar to them and am very curious, but worried. I have noticed similar personality characteristics on Slashdot. Where does this nerd arrogance come from? How can it be rectified? I am concerned that, if I do not abolish these annoying tendencies, I may have trouble later on in life with my career and relationships. Has anybody run into problems in life with the arrogance that seems to be so prevalent with nerds? If so, how did you handle the situation?"
The key is to realise that even if you *are* smarter than everyone else, they'll be more cooperative if you let them maintain their delusion of equality.
Said far better than I ever could :)
I will add that part of the reason that you are cocky because most of the people you have dealt with to this point in life have probably been idiots. This will change when you get an entry-level job where you are the idiot among your peers. The good news is that some of the best (and most humble) engineers that I work with now were UNBELIEVABLY cocky right out of MIT/Cornell/etc. On the other hand, some of them stayed cocky :)
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Having the humility to admit you have a problem like that is the first step, so you've probably got a good head start right there. Just think to yourself when you want to say something smart, "Will I sound like a prick if I say this (this way)?" I usually forget that part...
IMO, rectify it with logic.
Ask them about a medical issue they wont know, or perhaps a plumbing problem.
Then tell them, well it is a good thing there are people smart in these areas. If it dawns on them that everyone has their place in society, they will dismount their pedestal.
I think you've stumbled upon the answer: you are being self-reflecting. I find a lot of nerds aren't self-reflecting. They question everything but themselves and it's up to everyone else to prove them wrong, otherwise they must be right.
Mind you, anyone who is arrogant probably has not done any self-reflecting either, or believe they don't need to do any self-reflecting.
Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
No worries, though. Ultimately, life will fix the problem.
Usually not too soon after graduation. There's something humbling about filing dozens of job applications only to get one or no offers. :P
I read TFA and all I got was this lousy cookie
Arrogance is universal. Jocks are arrogant because they're jocks. Nerds are arrogant because they think they're smarter than everyone else. (A couple of them even are smarter than everyone else, but not that many of us are as smart as we think.)
Recognizing your arrogance is the first step, as they say. Pay attention to the things you say and people's reactions to them. The only way to fix it is to recognize the specific instances where you come off as arrogant and change the behavior then and there. Apologize for it when you realize your arrogance has offended someone.
Also, spend time around people from all different backgrounds and majors. Don't just hang out with people like you. It will help a lot.
"Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I'm pretty sure that's not unique to CS students.
It isn't unique to CS, but it is more pronounced. I think it is because with CS there is a bigger dichotomy between people that "get it' and people that are just inherently incapable of the complex abstract reasoning needed for programming. Additionally, CS tends to attract people more comfortable dealing with "things" than with people, so they often lack the social skills to temper their arrogance when it is inappropriate.
As you say, high level people in almost any major display a level of arrogance--it's not just the young. Professors do this, doctors do it, lawyers do it, etc. All of those are highly professional people to whom arrogance cannot simply attributed to youth or inexperience. In many ways, it doesn't just wear off. Life doesn't just "fix" it. You'll find many a medical doctor who is an arrogant prick and just awful to deal with.
The issue, at its core, is not the arrogance itself. All of us have some level of arrogance. It's essential to any working person: if someone challenges your work, you need to have the confidence to defend it and back it up when that is warranted. Of course, the difference between arrogance and confidence is a fine line: it's arrogant to presume you are always right but confidence when you actually are right. If someone walks in and says "Your airplane design is ok, but let's take off the wings," it's not arrogance to argue that your design is good because you are correct. If someone says, "I think if we make [minor change] we can improve the design a bit," dismissing the comment without looking into it would be arrogance.
So what is my point with all this? It's not the arrogance, it's the social skills that matter. Nerd-types often lack in this department because they spend much of their time dealing with machines and ideas--and when they do interact with other people, it's often people of the same type. The passion nerds often see as a positive is detrimental to their interaction with people who are not as hardcore. For example, if someone says, "I just got these Bose speakers and they're awesome!" an audiophile-nerd type might instantly respond with "Pfft. Bose is crap!" and chide that person for the purchase he is enjoying. Social skills enter here: it's perfectly fine to think that buying Bose is stupid. But there's no reason to ruin someone else's enjoyment. It does you no good, and it does him no good: he's not going to replace his new speakers because you said so. Let that person live in ignorance. If he asks you for an opinion or suggests that you should replace your B&W's with Bose, THEN you can rail on Bose (but take it easy).
That's the difference: nerds sometimes lack the social skills to deal with their arrogance. They carry it into settings where it is unwelcome, like in my Bose example. It's a perfectly appropriate argument to have in a sound studio with other people who are obsessed with speakers. It's inappropriate to have it at your uncle's Christmas party. In classroom settings, the line is a bit more blurred: nerd-types think that everyone in there lives and dies for the course material like they do, but some of those people are just there to pick up a trick or two, or because the degree requirements make them be there, and they're really more interested in another field (e.g., an engineer who has to take intro programming but wants to do radio communication work).
It is this that causes problems, not the arrogance itself. To the very OP, I'd say that merely acknowledging your problem is an enormous first step. Social skills are not terribly hard to acquire. Just think a bit before you act or speak and that will go a long way.
Part of it is a lot of geeks cut their teeth in the industry by dealing with level 0 or level 1 phone support.
There, you get the people who oftentimes have no clue what they are doing, but yet have an attitude. This is a perfect ground for breeding the "I'm smarter than you" aura. After a certain amount of calls of "I just pulled the DIMMs out of this box and put them into this other... now why isn't my RAM drive working?", one has to deal with it some way.
It is easy to hold other people in contempt when you only play to your own natural talents. If you have an aptitude for math, for example, that others do not it can be easy to think they're lazy, stupid, or not worthy of respect when you see them struggle. If, having this aptitude, most activities in your life revolve around math it is all too easy to become deluded and arrogant.
Find something you're bad at and struggle. Find something for which you have no natural talent and learn what it means to learn from others. I'm not saying switch your major or career choices. On these you should naturally play toward your strengths because that's why you have them. But if you're not good with, say, physical activities, or visual and creative arts, or music, or language, then take on one of these as a hobby. Take your two left feet dancing, pick up a martial art, play tennis, take a course in poetry, learn a language, try an instrument, take up woodworking. Most importantly, stick with it weekly, especially when it gets hard. It will make you a better person, help you to understand (and indeed to teach) others when they struggle and, almost as importantly, it will teach you how to be confident at what you're good at without being filled with pride and arrogance.
Congratulations! You're in the process of joining the human race by displaying a sense of self-awareness and an awareness of other's feelings! You've already solved half the problem simply by noticing that you're acting like an arrogant jerk. Next step: When you notice you're about to say or do something arrogant or jerk-like just invoke Wheaton's Law.
Where does it come from: As for where it comes from it is pretty easy to see. Most hardcore nerds spent their youth getting picked and teased for being hardcore nerds. Get them into a field in which most people still regard as Voodoo/High Wizardry (Come on, you have to admit that even though people in general are more familiar with tech now most of them are fairly ignorant of how anything tech-related actually works. This is not a dig against anyone, it is simply a statement that most individuals don't know or care how a given piece of tech works, just that it does.) and it is easy to see how a level of arrogance might develop.
Rectifying it (Issue status - Won't Fix): Luckily this is a self-rectifying problem. Once said arrogant jerks get out into the real world most of them will go through the post-grad school of hard knocks. No one wants to work with an arrogant jerk. A lot of them will either self-correct their behavior and try to play nice with their co-workers, family, friends, etc. The rest won't have enough self-awareness to see what is causing the problem in the first place and will quickly either be out of a job, spouse, friends, etc. Problem solved either way. I've seen both scenarios play out.
God, schmod. I want my monkey man!
Pick up a copy of "How to Win Friends and Influence People".
Read it.
Then read it again.
Then keep it on your bedside and dip into it from time to time.
It's mostly aimed at salesmen, but the advice it contains is invaluable for people in all walks of life.
IMO, rectify it with logic.
Ask them about a medical issue they wont know, or perhaps a plumbing problem.
Then you get the Sheldon Cooper effect whereby they dismiss the information as trivial and/or uninteresting. Never underestimate the extent of youth and arrogance.
When I was done with university I went for a graduate somewhere else, and brought my nerd arrogance with me.
It only got worse when I took a job as an IT gnome, and I REALLY started to see all the shenanigans the stupidity of some people can cause.
Arrogance comes from thinking that you're better than people around you. Sometimes it's actually true.
Can you say this about yourself in a variety of other situations? How about at a dance club? Or maybe attending a potluck or cookout?
If you ever had to be in a situation outside of your comfort zone, would you be afraid of the same judgement? Because many well-adjusted people aren't afraid of being judged for being bad at things outside of their wheelhouse. That's a huge part of the definition of being well-adjusted.
You are the type of person OP is trying to avoid becoming. The fact that you are looking down on others, and drawing pride from something as stupid as technology as a justification, shows the type of petty person that the aforementioned overdeveloped "nerd arrogance" can actually produce.
Get some laid and calm down!
Plumbing can be done badly by someone without smarts; a proper plumbing job -- knowing when to use copper, when PVC, when something else, what the optimum grade for laying the pipes is, etc. is just as technical as anything a technologist or medical practicioner does. In fact, the parallels between plumbing and PCB layout are striking -- with the difference that you have to deal with gravity and environmental impact instead of RF interference, and have a wider selection of materials to choose from. There's also the fact that each plumbing job is done by hand instead of just having to do the layout and then sending it to the printer for replication.
Agreed.
I would add that this really isn't too painfully specific to any profession or major. Anyone here ever perused listings on an online dating site? A ridiculously high percentage of them (by my very scientific sampling) spend time talking about how smart they are, and how they just can't stand "stupid people".
Or perhaps you've heard the saying about 75% of people think they're above average? I'm sure there's a real study behind that, somewhere, but it strikes a chord for all of us, either way. ;)
So yeah, most of us are probably a little too generous with our self image. If it's not, "I'm really, really, ridiculously good looking"*, then it's probably, "I'm really, really clever." Maybe that's just healthy and normal.
* I hope you read that in a Zoolander voice.
Au contraire mon frere, as a licensed plumber you have to basically know the contents of the National Plumbing Codes, and any State and Local codes, up to or better than the inspector who will be checking your work. You have to know how to apply these codes, how to do the work, no less be physically capable of doing it; and if you don't do your job correctly, you might be liable for property damage, and if you don't know to how install that vent pipe correctly, you might even be liable for someone's death, as has happened many times before.
And like a doctor, when you need a plumber, you often really, really need a plumber, and you need him NOW. Perhaps plumbing or other trade work doesn't involve higher levels of mathematical and physics understanding, but I'd advise you not to look down your nose at one when he's looking down your shitter.
The key is to realise that even if you *are* smarter than everyone else, they'll be more cooperative if you let them maintain their delusion of equality.
"Their delusion of equality."
Yeah, right.
Like that bone-deep arrogance and sense of superiority you can barely force yourself to hide won't be seen in your face from a mile off.
Arrogance is never justified. This is why it's never seen as a positive trait in people. Arrogance puts yourself and all of what you are in front of EVERYONE else. Arrogance is NEVER confidence.
My beliefs:
- Arrogance is not a virtue. Arrogance alienates you from people.
- Humility is a virtue. Humility brings us closer to people.
Be confident yet humble, and people will follow you to the ends of the Earth...
To quote the late great George Carlin:
Just think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
Hmm, the humour and sarcasm seem to have been be lost on you.
It's not that people are dumb, it's that computers are still very new
You know, I heard that excuse a lot twenty years ago. Since then, computers have entered into every facet of modern life. People leaving university today were born after the world wide went online, and even after home Internet access became cheap. I've spoken to people who are now retired who have been programming for their entire career. Unless someone has been living in a cave for the last few decades, they have no excuse for not being at least passingly familiar with this stuff. I have a lot of time for people who find that they are in a situation that their prior experience doesn't give them the tools to deal with, I have none for people who are wilfully ignorant and refuse to take advantage of opportunities to rectify this.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Go Big Red!
Seriously though, I think almost all engineers go through a similar progression. Spend high school overachieving (probably at the expense of social development), work hard and get into a great college, get knocked down a peg when you realize that you're either somewhere in the meaty part of the curve among other prospective engineers, or that you'll actually need to *try* in order to get that A for the first time in your life... once you do succeed (or maybe just fail to fail) you graduate college thinking you're ready to take on the world... enter the business world and realize that the fancy education you paid so much for is only good enough to get your foot in the door...come to the realization that respect is earned by experience and demonstrated value... spend a few years building up credibility and expertise, then realize that being a manager (or director, or VP, etc.) requires some serious people skills (remember all those parties and extracurricular activities you skipped in high school in favor of hacking and video games?) and either choose to stay on the individual contributor path and hone your skills to guru level or take the plunge and start educating yourself (both formally and informally) in how to effectively manage a bunch of cocky engineers.
That's my story in a nutshell, and I think there are probably quite a few people out there who can relate. The cyclical nature of it is somewhat poetic. Just when you think you've reached the summit, you're finally able to see the next peak.
To build on this, my Father-in-law is an electrician. Sure maybe he's not overly technical and can barley use a computer, but when he's working he's making $60/hour + materials. I say when he's working, because there's so much work for him he chooses when and who he works for. So I'd argue that he has a much better job than most of the technical people I know.
Trades people should be respected, with out them we wouldn't have buildings to store our computers, power to turn them on, or running water to make coffee with for those late night programming sessions.
I agree with the summary I've observed many co-op students that work under me thumbing their noses at our co-workers. They think because I have a degree I'd be on their side, but I'm not. A piece of paper says you survived university, now a days that's probably living at home with your parents. Most of my co-workers may not have degrees, but self taught with 20+ years of experience will kick a piece of paper in the nuts any day and I'm quick to remind my co-ops of that.
No, unfortunately by your own standards you are arrogant here. Its how you deliver the information. Patience and tolerance for ignorance go a long way towards people having respect for your knowledgebase.
I consult for a living. Having the knowledge is the relatively easy part. Being able to deliver it to the client in a way which will allow them to understand their ignorance, and the content of your information bolus, without making them feel stupid and inferior... That takes diplomacy, and compassion, and work. When you can interact with others on a subject which you are expert in and they are not, without making them feel inferior and imparting part of your knowledge to them at the same time, then you are a success.
Chuck
Haha, very close to the advice I was going to offer—my two-step plan to defeating arrogance:
1. Understand that people are, universally, completely fucking stupid.
2. Understand that you are a person.
Done.
Yep - it's the The Dunning-Kruger effect.
Ignorant people often vastly overestimate their actual skill level and competence - they don't realize how much they don't know. Experts, conversely, tend to hedge far more about their competence, and underestimate their abilities, because despite being VERY knowledgeable, that knowledge gives them a very real understanding of exactly how little they TRULY know.
The arrogance talked about in TFS is generally a function of a reasonably intelligent person with little real-world experience. For the truly intelligent people, they're usually taught a valuable lesson in humility and modesty within a few years of encountering "real life" after college.
The society which scorns excellence in plumbing as a humble activity and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy because it is an exalted activity will have neither good plumbing nor good philosophy: neither its pipes nor its theories will hold water.
- John W. Garner
"The average computer user is probably more ignorant of how computers work *now* then the average computer user 10 years ago"
25 years ago? sure. IN the 80s pretty much the only people who had computers where people interested in computer. since about 92 or so, people have somputers becasue they are intersted in what they can do.i.ie programs the run.
" It amazes me that people do not care about how these marvelous machines work, but they don't."
It shouldn't.
Do you know how a city water system works? that's a marvelous creation. Do you understand the metallurgy used to create a nail? do you know the variety of chemical choices the can be made when making gas?
The vast majority of marvelous thing that you use you don't really care how they work in any real detail.
Not creepy, human. No one can be interested in everything. There are some people, and maybe you are one, they got into programming becasue computers are really powerful in all areas of life, and computer programming means when I am interested in a topic, I can get a job in that industry and learn from experts.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I don't think I have a lot of arrogance these days.
Are you sure, because this is the most arrogant post in the thread.
I didn't overachieve in High School because I realized how pointless an effort that was.
I didn't apply myself in History, English, other sciences, or any of the nonsensical electives we had to take. I saw no reason to
as far as I was concerned, I was the valedictorian.
as if they had accomplished something worthwhile
You seem to be doing a good job of feeling superior to all the people who chose to apply themselves in school, or who didn't need to apply themselves to do well. You don't seem to make the connection that your choice to blow off most of high school probably impacted your ability to get a scholarship to MIT or Stanford, and thus drove you get an education at a place where you admit "the CS curriculum there wasn't challenging".
I was lucky enough to be correct when it came to my educational choices: the school doesn't matter, and after a few years, your experience trumps it anyway
Since you don't know what you would have learned or who you would have collaborated with at MIT or Stanford, it's probably difficult to make this evaluation. However I do agree that a solid local school is a great education opportunity for millions of people.
I don't think there's a "fix" for it, other than letting someone eventually figure it out.
I agree completely to this statement. Good luck.
A bone to pick, if you would:
Do you know how a city water system works? that's a marvelous creation. Do you understand the metallurgy used to create a nail? do you know the variety of chemical choices the can be made when making gas?
The vast majority of marvelous thing that you use you don't really care how they work in any real detail.
I don't know everything - anyone with an ounce of sense would say they don't, but frankly, I simply detest that sort of thought, that blase and complacent ignorance of the world that seems pervasive nowadays. I don't know the metallurgy in a nail, nor do I completely grok of the workings of the municipal water network in my city nor even its power grid, and only dimly aware of anything about the specifics of petrochemical refining. But you know what?
The world's only as boring as you let it be. Reading about those sorts of subjects over a lunch or while bored in the evening is the kind of thing I do. Even in the USA, a person can get a surprisingly good survey of the sciences and some trades with its broken educational system, but the problem isn't simply lack of availability, it's, again, this willful ignorance of many things. There is this growing urge to literally refuse to learn about the basics of things that deeply influence their life. I'm not an expert in a lot of fields, but at least I'm not enough of an ignorant mule to act like none of this matters.