Ask Slashdot: Rectifying Nerd Arrogance?

An anonymous reader writes "Like some Slashdot users, I began attending university last month for computer science. The experience represents my first time away from home and I'm almost constantly with my peers, many of whom are also computer science students. Recently, I have become cognizant of the many negative opinions associated with a 'normal' person's perspective of what a nerd is like. Conversing with my college computer science peers (many of whom are quite nerdy), I have noticed that many of them are extremely arrogant. Upon introspection, I have come to the realization that I am also very similar to them and am very curious, but worried. I have noticed similar personality characteristics on Slashdot. Where does this nerd arrogance come from? How can it be rectified? I am concerned that, if I do not abolish these annoying tendencies, I may have trouble later on in life with my career and relationships. Has anybody run into problems in life with the arrogance that seems to be so prevalent with nerds? If so, how did you handle the situation?"

Comments

I think that's all college students

[crazyjj]

I'm pretty sure that's not unique to CS students. If you think arrogance is a trait only CS majors have, head over to a 500-level philosophy class sometime and talk to some of those majors. Hell, go to pretty much *any* high level class in *any* major.

The problem isn't the major, the problem is the combination of youth and a little knowledge. Most 21-year-olds are just knowledgeable enough to be cocky, but not knowledgeable enough to appreciate the fact that they really don't know shit. I believe Socrates observed this phenomenon even in his time, and commented on it. "Stop being such cocky pricks! You don't even appreciate how dumb a bunch of shits you are yet, you little fuckers!" he would tell his students (I paraphrase the Greek).

No worries, though. Ultimately, life will fix the problem.

Re:I think that's all college students

[Mitchell314]

No worries, though. Ultimately, life will fix the problem.

Usually not too soon after graduation. There's something humbling about filing dozens of job applications only to get one or no offers. :P

Re:I think that's all college students

[Anonymous Coward]

As you say, high level people in almost any major display a level of arrogance--it's not just the young. Professors do this, doctors do it, lawyers do it, etc. All of those are highly professional people to whom arrogance cannot simply attributed to youth or inexperience. In many ways, it doesn't just wear off. Life doesn't just "fix" it. You'll find many a medical doctor who is an arrogant prick and just awful to deal with.

The issue, at its core, is not the arrogance itself. All of us have some level of arrogance. It's essential to any working person: if someone challenges your work, you need to have the confidence to defend it and back it up when that is warranted. Of course, the difference between arrogance and confidence is a fine line: it's arrogant to presume you are always right but confidence when you actually are right. If someone walks in and says "Your airplane design is ok, but let's take off the wings," it's not arrogance to argue that your design is good because you are correct. If someone says, "I think if we make [minor change] we can improve the design a bit," dismissing the comment without looking into it would be arrogance.

So what is my point with all this? It's not the arrogance, it's the social skills that matter. Nerd-types often lack in this department because they spend much of their time dealing with machines and ideas--and when they do interact with other people, it's often people of the same type. The passion nerds often see as a positive is detrimental to their interaction with people who are not as hardcore. For example, if someone says, "I just got these Bose speakers and they're awesome!" an audiophile-nerd type might instantly respond with "Pfft. Bose is crap!" and chide that person for the purchase he is enjoying. Social skills enter here: it's perfectly fine to think that buying Bose is stupid. But there's no reason to ruin someone else's enjoyment. It does you no good, and it does him no good: he's not going to replace his new speakers because you said so. Let that person live in ignorance. If he asks you for an opinion or suggests that you should replace your B&W's with Bose, THEN you can rail on Bose (but take it easy).

That's the difference: nerds sometimes lack the social skills to deal with their arrogance. They carry it into settings where it is unwelcome, like in my Bose example. It's a perfectly appropriate argument to have in a sound studio with other people who are obsessed with speakers. It's inappropriate to have it at your uncle's Christmas party. In classroom settings, the line is a bit more blurred: nerd-types think that everyone in there lives and dies for the course material like they do, but some of those people are just there to pick up a trick or two, or because the degree requirements make them be there, and they're really more interested in another field (e.g., an engineer who has to take intro programming but wants to do radio communication work).

It is this that causes problems, not the arrogance itself. To the very OP, I'd say that merely acknowledging your problem is an enormous first step. Social skills are not terribly hard to acquire. Just think a bit before you act or speak and that will go a long way.

Re:I think that's all college students

[Gorobei]

The problem isn't the major, the problem is the combination of youth and a little knowledge. Most 21-year-olds are just knowledgeable enough to be cocky, but not knowledgeable enough to appreciate the fact that they really don't know shit.

The major has a lot to do with it. CS (and IT) give rapid feedback on being right or wrong: those who tend to be right all the time often get cocky. This is fine until they think that because they are right about CS/IT, they are right about everything. Being in the top 1% of tech wizards doesn't make you an expert in politics or telling jokes, etc: this is where people get a reputation for arrogance or cringe-worthy ineptness.

Wall Street used to joke about "dentists from New Jersey:" a class of intelligent technical people who would confuse their specialist knowledge and track records of accruing money with general expertise in investing. They were the dumping ground for the worst financial toxic waste that banks needed to get off their books.

Re:I think that's all college students

[rijrunner]

The Latin term for this is Pons Asinorum. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pons_asinorum

Essentially, there is a weed-out mark in most higher abstract thought processes where people are either capable of getting it, or not. It inherently develops a us/them dichotomy.

Re:I think that's all college students

[canadiannomad]

To quote the late great George Carlin:

Just think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.

Re:I think that's all college students

[heckler95]

Go Big Red!

Seriously though, I think almost all engineers go through a similar progression. Spend high school overachieving (probably at the expense of social development), work hard and get into a great college, get knocked down a peg when you realize that you're either somewhere in the meaty part of the curve among other prospective engineers, or that you'll actually need to *try* in order to get that A for the first time in your life... once you do succeed (or maybe just fail to fail) you graduate college thinking you're ready to take on the world... enter the business world and realize that the fancy education you paid so much for is only good enough to get your foot in the door...come to the realization that respect is earned by experience and demonstrated value... spend a few years building up credibility and expertise, then realize that being a manager (or director, or VP, etc.) requires some serious people skills (remember all those parties and extracurricular activities you skipped in high school in favor of hacking and video games?) and either choose to stay on the individual contributor path and hone your skills to guru level or take the plunge and start educating yourself (both formally and informally) in how to effectively manage a bunch of cocky engineers.

That's my story in a nutshell, and I think there are probably quite a few people out there who can relate. The cyclical nature of it is somewhat poetic. Just when you think you've reached the summit, you're finally able to see the next peak.

Re:I think that's all college students

[Fallingcow]

Haha, very close to the advice I was going to offer—my two-step plan to defeating arrogance:

1. Understand that people are, universally, completely fucking stupid.
2. Understand that you are a person.

Done.

Re:I think that's all college students

[jmerlin]

I will recount my experience.

Spend high school overachieving (probably at the expense of social development)

I didn't overachieve in High School because I realized how pointless an effort that was. There were only 2 things I cared about in High School, and that was Computer Science and Math. I realized this by about grade 5.. At that time, there was a little orange book called "Games in Basic" on my teacher's bookshelf. I picked it up and started reading it one day and was fascinated (we had a PC with Windows 3.1 and I could easily boot into DOS and code up basic games). She saw me reading it and said "I bought that thinking kids might like it but nobody but you has ever read it, so you can have it if you want." So I took it home and went through all of the exercises in it (just basic word games, input a number/word, output a response, etc). At that point I was hooked. When we finally upgraded to Windows 95/98, I started playing around in VB, eventually installing my father's copy of VC and learning C. This is where my time not in school was spent (split between that and playing games). I quickly realized I enjoyed this more than just about anything else, and so I did it. I taught myself VB then C then x86. By the time I could actually take a CS course in High School I was a junior, and it was an entry-level Java course. I still learned things -- data structures and some algorithms, but the majority of the syntax and other things I was quite familiar with already. Of those two categories I cared about, I maintained a 95%+ average. I didn't apply myself in History, English, other sciences, or any of the nonsensical electives we had to take. I saw no reason to, and I didn't care that I was just outside the top 10% mark in my school, nobody I knew was as good at Math or CS as me, so as far as I was concerned, I was the valedictorian. When I later spoke with people in the top 1% including the actual valedictorian, the arrogance they exuded was astonishing, as if they had accomplished something worthwhile.

work hard and get into a great college, get knocked down a peg when you realize that you're either somewhere in the meaty part of the curve among other prospective engineers, or that you'll actually need to *try* in order to get that A for the first time in your life

I didn't work hard to get in a great college, but I still managed to, even with my crappy GPA (something like 3.4 in HS), get a scholarship to a local university. I really wanted to go to Stanford or MIT, but the money just wasn't there, and a huge student loan wasn't something I could justify. So I majored in CS, an obvious choice, and figured that this 4-year degree would do nicely in the real world, where experience is more important anyway. I realized pretty quickly that the CS curriculum there wasn't challenging. I could read through the texts and learn what a course would teach me in a few days, and would end up bored sitting in a course going at a snail's pace for the rest of the semester. On the other hand, math courses were actually quite challenging. So 3 semesters in I switched from CS major to Math major and still took the interesting CS courses in my electives (compilers, AI, operating systems, etc). The math courses were a fair bit more difficult, especially more abstract courses, but the only time I actually had to really try to get a decent grade was when I finally started taking graduate courses. There's just too much information to keep in one's head to fully understand why a proof is valid (it doesn't just span that chapter in that book, nor even that entire book, but rather the past 3 years of courses of abstraction). Needless to say, in my spare time, I was still hacking around in CS and my brain was already prioritizing CS-useful math (including things like Abstract Algebra, Number Theory, Probability, etc), but the rest was reserved for actual CS work, so I wasn't to interested in pursuing an M.S. in math. No CS c

Re:I think that's all college students

[Americano]

Yep - it's the The Dunning-Kruger effect.

Ignorant people often vastly overestimate their actual skill level and competence - they don't realize how much they don't know. Experts, conversely, tend to hedge far more about their competence, and underestimate their abilities, because despite being VERY knowledgeable, that knowledge gives them a very real understanding of exactly how little they TRULY know.

The arrogance talked about in TFS is generally a function of a reasonably intelligent person with little real-world experience. For the truly intelligent people, they're usually taught a valuable lesson in humility and modesty within a few years of encountering "real life" after college.

Re:I think that's all college students

[Anonymous Coward]

You guys are just being mean

Re:I think that's all college students

[geekoid]

"The average computer user is probably more ignorant of how computers work *now* then the average computer user 10 years ago"
25 years ago? sure. IN the 80s pretty much the only people who had computers where people interested in computer. since about 92 or so, people have somputers becasue they are intersted in what they can do.i.ie programs the run.

" It amazes me that people do not care about how these marvelous machines work, but they don't."
It shouldn't.

Do you know how a city water system works? that's a marvelous creation. Do you understand the metallurgy used to create a nail? do you know the variety of chemical choices the can be made when making gas?
The vast majority of marvelous thing that you use you don't really care how they work in any real detail.

Not creepy, human. No one can be interested in everything. There are some people, and maybe you are one, they got into programming becasue computers are really powerful in all areas of life, and computer programming means when I am interested in a topic, I can get a job in that industry and learn from experts.

Re:I think that's all college students

[ridley4]

A bone to pick, if you would:

Do you know how a city water system works? that's a marvelous creation. Do you understand the metallurgy used to create a nail? do you know the variety of chemical choices the can be made when making gas?
The vast majority of marvelous thing that you use you don't really care how they work in any real detail.

I don't know everything - anyone with an ounce of sense would say they don't, but frankly, I simply detest that sort of thought, that blase and complacent ignorance of the world that seems pervasive nowadays. I don't know the metallurgy in a nail, nor do I completely grok of the workings of the municipal water network in my city nor even its power grid, and only dimly aware of anything about the specifics of petrochemical refining. But you know what?

The world's only as boring as you let it be. Reading about those sorts of subjects over a lunch or while bored in the evening is the kind of thing I do. Even in the USA, a person can get a surprisingly good survey of the sciences and some trades with its broken educational system, but the problem isn't simply lack of availability, it's, again, this willful ignorance of many things. There is this growing urge to literally refuse to learn about the basics of things that deeply influence their life. I'm not an expert in a lot of fields, but at least I'm not enough of an ignorant mule to act like none of this matters.

Re:I think that's all college students

[mattack2]

So if a dumb person gets hit by a bus, does that mean that the bus is a human de-Gausser?

That's just perfectly normal paranoia.

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone in the universe gets that. Nerd arrogance comes from the basic insecurities that all “not normal” people have. The more you love math and science the further you'll be from people who live for the next episode of Jersey Shore.

The insecurity is addressed by the assumption that being great at computers/math/science means you don't have to be good at all those other “human” skills. But as Admrial Akbar will remind you: “It's a Trap!” If you're an amazing nerd, people will put up with your crappy attitude at work, but if your kind, decent, patient nerd, people will beg their bosses to have you on their team.

I have 50 square feet of window, can see a full third of the skyline, take long lunches and get to design super computing clusters, and this job is more due to my people skills than nerdy ones. I design AI algorithms on the weekend when I need extra-nerd time.

To your worry about being corrupted by nerdfluence, “It all comes down to choice.” I recommend:

Read XKCD to be reminded that you're not alone, and you don't have to be a jerk to be nerd.

Keep in mind that we were all beginners once. You may not have been a beginner since you were 11, but there was a time when it was all new and intimidating. Whether someone is 11 or 55 doesn't change much, and at 11 your job didn't depend on you getting it right the first time.

The people who had a date for prom, and fix cars, and cook well were no different from you when you were a computer beginner. Dateless people who have to cook for themselves, and fix their own cars may get to call themselves Independent, but they have missed the fundamental advantage of living in a society. Being a decent human, you don't have to have every existing skill, and can instead focus on being a more proficient nerd. It's a trap worth avoiding.

YMMV

Proper /. nerd response

[boristdog]

Shut up, N00b.

Easy.

[SuricouRaven]

The key is to realise that even if you *are* smarter than everyone else, they'll be more cooperative if you let them maintain their delusion of equality.

Humility

[Joehonkie]

Having the humility to admit you have a problem like that is the first step, so you've probably got a good head start right there. Just think to yourself when you want to say something smart, "Will I sound like a prick if I say this (this way)?" I usually forget that part...

The influence of power on the human ego

[concealment]

I have noticed that many of them are extremely arrogant...I have noticed similar personality characteristics on Slashdot. Where does this nerd arrogance come from?

In literature, this type of arrogance is attributed to bureaucrats and technicians.

The reason is that they are masters of the machine, whether a political/paperwork machine or the literal machine.

This gives a lot of power to someone, but it's all negative power. They have the power to say no, or to wreck things, but don't yet (or perhaps never will) have the power to create.

I think you will find that, on Slashdot and in the world, those who have actual power (more than negation) tend to be confident, proud and perhaps "arrogant," but not in the way a lot of internet users are.

The people who are most arrogant in the way you describe are the frustrated ones who have a lack of options, and to compensate, create an inflated sense of self-importance which they refresh by imposing their will on others.

It's no different than any other kind of power abuse. Some fields (law enforcement, computing, bureaucracy) tend to attract more of these people than other fields do.

Self reflection

[The Evil Atheist]

I think you've stumbled upon the answer: you are being self-reflecting. I find a lot of nerds aren't self-reflecting. They question everything but themselves and it's up to everyone else to prove them wrong, otherwise they must be right.

Mind you, anyone who is arrogant probably has not done any self-reflecting either, or believe they don't need to do any self-reflecting.

A good start

[hort_wort]

Step 1: Use smaller, more popular words when speaking. Be happy that you can communicate with the largest number of people that way instead of just an elite group. I'm just too lazy to look up "cognizant". :P

Step 2: Don't give advice to people in a slightly insulting way.

Step 3: .... oops.

Universal arrogance...

[bkr1_2k]

Arrogance is universal. Jocks are arrogant because they're jocks. Nerds are arrogant because they think they're smarter than everyone else. (A couple of them even are smarter than everyone else, but not that many of us are as smart as we think.)

Recognizing your arrogance is the first step, as they say. Pay attention to the things you say and people's reactions to them. The only way to fix it is to recognize the specific instances where you come off as arrogant and change the behavior then and there. Apologize for it when you realize your arrogance has offended someone.

Also, spend time around people from all different backgrounds and majors. Don't just hang out with people like you. It will help a lot.

Sheldon Cooper Effect

[sjbe]

IMO, rectify it with logic.
Ask them about a medical issue they wont know, or perhaps a plumbing problem.

Then you get the Sheldon Cooper effect whereby they dismiss the information as trivial and/or uninteresting. Never underestimate the extent of youth and arrogance.

Re:nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Au contraire mon frere, as a licensed plumber you have to basically know the contents of the National Plumbing Codes, and any State and Local codes, up to or better than the inspector who will be checking your work. You have to know how to apply these codes, how to do the work, no less be physically capable of doing it; and if you don't do your job correctly, you might be liable for property damage, and if you don't know to how install that vent pipe correctly, you might even be liable for someone's death, as has happened many times before.

And like a doctor, when you need a plumber, you often really, really need a plumber, and you need him NOW. Perhaps plumbing or other trade work doesn't involve higher levels of mathematical and physics understanding, but I'd advise you not to look down your nose at one when he's looking down your shitter.

easy

[fyngyrz]

Rectifying nerd arrogance: Yer gonna need a nerd diode for that.

But watch out. Indiscriminate use of a bridge style rectifier will get ya 1.414 x the nerdiness. That can blow out yer nerd capacitors if you don't spec' 'em right.

Re:If it ain't broke don't fix it

[CokoBWare]

Arrogance is never justified. This is why it's never seen as a positive trait in people. Arrogance puts yourself and all of what you are in front of EVERYONE else. Arrogance is NEVER confidence.

My beliefs:
- Arrogance is not a virtue. Arrogance alienates you from people.
- Humility is a virtue. Humility brings us closer to people.

Be confident yet humble, and people will follow you to the ends of the Earth...

Re:It's only arrogance if you're wrong.

[Lershac]

No, unfortunately by your own standards you are arrogant here. Its how you deliver the information. Patience and tolerance for ignorance go a long way towards people having respect for your knowledgebase.

I consult for a living. Having the knowledge is the relatively easy part. Being able to deliver it to the client in a way which will allow them to understand their ignorance, and the content of your information bolus, without making them feel stupid and inferior... That takes diplomacy, and compassion, and work. When you can interact with others on a subject which you are expert in and they are not, without making them feel inferior and imparting part of your knowledge to them at the same time, then you are a success.

Re:nope

[Clueless Moron]

The society which scorns excellence in plumbing as a humble activity and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy because it is an exalted activity will have neither good plumbing nor good philosophy: neither its pipes nor its theories will hold water.

- John W. Garner