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Apple Loses Patent Case For FaceTime Tech, Owes $368 Million

Posted by Soulskill on from the we-invented-the-transmission-of-data dept.

beeudoublez writes "Apple was ordered to pay $368 million today to a software company named VirnetX over patents related to Apple's FaceTime technology. Apple engineers testified they didn't pay attention to any patents when building FaceTime. 'The jury, which had sat through the five-day trial, ruled that Apple infringed two patents: one for a method of creating a virtual private network (VPN) between computers, and another for solving DNS security issues. ... It's not the first time VirnetX has won a payout from a major tech firm: the company bagged $105.7m from Microsoft two years ago, and it may not be the last either. VirnetX has a separate case against Apple pending with the International Trade Commission and it has court cases against Cisco, Avaya and Siemens scheduled for trial next year.'" It's not all bad news for Apple today, though — according to Ars, they've won a new patent for a rounded rectangle (D670,286).

34 of 139 comments (clear)

  1. So f*cked up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The Patent Office should be dismantled (along with the TSA)

    1. Re:So f*cked up by pecosdave · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As much as I dislike Apple - for being patent trolls and bullies - it makes me sick to my stomach this happened to them. I mean I enjoy the suffering and all, it's just a really bad thing for the tech world in general. The patent trolling, not Apple suffering.

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    2. Re:So f*cked up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't think the patent office should be dismantled. But there needs to be some reform.

      All we see here on Slashdot and the rest of the media are large corporations and law firms abusing the system. We don't see any stories about the lone inventor working in his garage, patenting his invention, starting a company, and creating lots of jobs while getting rich. Dean Kamen comes to mind as an example of the patent system and the American Inventor dream working - as far as I can tell.

      So, please let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    3. Re:So f*cked up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Apple suffering over this, means *we all* suffer. To Apple, this is just raising the bar to market entry. $368 millions is peanuts to them. Effectively, this just means a steep artificial fee at the troll gate, which effectively supports the dinosaurs just fine. They don't care that they're sucking the life-blood of the economy. So if reform should start somewhere, it should start with the law and financials.

    4. Re:So f*cked up by pecosdave · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In this particular case Apple suffering may help us all.

      Remember the famous patent troll of recent past Amazon? Now Amazon is actually starting to suggest patents are going overboard and trolls need to be shut down. If Apple gets on the losing end of enough of these battles they may actually join hands with Amazon and *gasp* Samsung when they've had enough to lobby to fix the problem.

      Until then troll them and the other patent troll companies until they have a change of heart.

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    5. Re:So f*cked up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Don't patents already expire after ~18 years now, or was it extended?

    6. Re:So f*cked up by pecosdave · · Score: 4, Informative

      Fine.

      Patent abuser then.

      Let the trolls attack the abusers.

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      The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
    7. Re:So f*cked up by interval1066 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That Apple completely ignored absolutely legitimate tech patents but "invented" a rectangle with rounded corners makes you sad for Apple? I think I'm sick to my stomach...

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    8. Re:So f*cked up by tricorn · · Score: 4, Informative

      That's a design patent, which really has little to do with "real" patents. It's closer to a trademark than a normal patent.

    9. Re:So f*cked up by Lithdren · · Score: 2

      Apple is hardly clean of any of this as well with the way they've been throwing their weight around as well.

      If anything, everyone involved needs to be dragged into the street and told to knock it off before kneecaps start getting busted. Sadly there's too much money to be made, by all involved, for that to happen.

      But dont pretend Apple is innocent in any of it, just makes you out to be a shill instead of having some kind of actual point.

    10. Re:So f*cked up by Charliemopps · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Bullshit. Apple uses their patents to prevent competition by refusing to license them even though they are for ridiculous things like rectangles and such. If you're preventing innovation by using patents for your own commercial gain, you're a patten troll. There are many ways to do this, apple is very good at their brand. VirnetX is very good at theirs. The fact that 2 patent trolls are battling it out doesn't make one the good guy. The sad state of affairs is that our system is so broken its turning companies that really don't want to be a part of this nonsense into trolls themselves. It's getting to be the only way to do business anymore.

    11. Re:So f*cked up by Tough+Love · · Score: 2

      Do you know what a patent troll is?

      Let's clear that up right now. The proper technical term for what Apple and Amazon do is "Patent Thuggery". Let's not get sidetracked on issues of whether they practice their patents or not, but whether or not they are thugs.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    12. Re:So f*cked up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Incorrect. A patent owner is under no obligation to license. In fact, the whole point of the patent is to give a limited term monopoly. The revenue source of a patent troll is through legal actions based on forced licensing or settlements of patents it has acquired. This is not the same as pure IP companies that develop technologies for others to license but do not produce any products or services themselves, such as ARM and MIPS.

    13. Re:So f*cked up by jythie · · Score: 2

      Loosing end 'enough'? Have you seen Apple's litigation history? Apple couldn't litigate themselves out of a wet paper bag 99% of the time.

    14. Re:So f*cked up by greenbird · · Score: 2

      Say what you will about Apple, but without them we'd still be the slaves of the cell carriers

      You must live in an alternate universe or something. You can get Apple phones from where? Huh, only place I can find is from the same carriers you seem to be claiming Apple freed someone from. They had the Apple fans enslaved exclusively to AT&T for quite a while. The only thing Apple is doing is adding another layer of enslavement to Apple.

      Lets see. I can get unlocked Google, Samsung and Motorola phones from all over. I can get phone service for many of their phones from Ting where they even have a forum devoted to helping people root their phones.

      --
      Who is John Galt?
    15. Re:So f*cked up by greg1104 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Patent troll is only applicable to companies who lobby patent suits but don't make things; usage stretching behind that is sloppy terminology. The reason for that distinction is that patent troll companies are normally a non-practising entity (NPE), which lets them sue without fear of a counter-suit. That's what makes them so troublesome. When Apple and Samsung battle, ultimately both have products covered by patents held by the other. While Apple may not like licensing their patents, it's possible for them to be forced into cross-licensing with another company that builds real products, or both companies can be deadlocked and unable to sell. That possibility isn't there on a true patent troll company. They only sue for infringement and never need to license to cover their own products, because they don't have any.

  2. Apple and their patent wars by mrbluze · · Score: 3, Insightful

    is like throwing stones in a glass house. It's too early to say whether Apple is heading for a wall, as many predict, but relying on patents to protect their markets instead of functionality, interoperability and build quality (which have been Apple's strengths recently) is a flawed approach.

    --
    Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
    1. Re:Apple and their patent wars by pecosdave · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I took this picture while I was in Manhattan this summer. I took the picture due to that saying, there was a part of me laughing hysterically at the glass houses thing.

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    2. Re:Apple and their patent wars by Xest · · Score: 2

      Apple's stock has lost 20% of it's value in the last 6 weeks alone. This is, in monetary terms, a decrease of over $130bn in value:

      http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=AAPL#symbol=aapl;range=20120917,20121107;compare=;indicator=volume;charttype=area;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined;

      Their legal strategy is now beginning to fall apart and they've not innovated in over 2 years now, offering only minor updates on their products. It'll be interesting to see what happens regarding the appeals in the US Apple vs. Samsung case, because if the $1.05bn award does get undone, then that's going to tear another massive chunk off of their value.

      I don't know that it is too early to say whether Apple is heading for a wall, honestly, it looks like they've already hit it. It's just a question of whether it's now continued decline, or if they can pick themselves back up with another miracle turnaround.

      I suspect a lot of it will depend on next years performance, if the iPad 4 and iPhone 6 offer a dramatically new set of features and innovation, or if they produce a whole new product range on the scale of at least the iPad in terms of success then I suspect they may well be able to turn things back around, but if we see nothing more than just yet another minor iteration on a then few year old design since the last real innovation happened then I think they're going to struggle to remain such a sizeable player. The problem is they're not diversified enough for the scenario where their mobile strategy does falter as it accounts to the majority of their profits. Their Mac business is still relatively small compared to the overall PC market (though large as an individual seller) and not as profitable as their mobile business. If their mobile business starts to really struggle (The iPhone is now down to a mere 14% global marketshare from 19% at the start of the year), then all their other profit centres (digital content/apps) will struggle too. Their other markets are just too weak (Apple TV), or have been dropped (Servers).

      Honestly, 2013 will be the real test for Apple's survival as a continued major player, it can go one of two ways, either a turnaround in innovation with new products or product lines that regain the momentum, or the tipping point of losing relevance if the iPhone loses the same degree of marketshare it has this year, hence bringing it down to under 10% globally and if new iPad/iPhone models continue to dissapoint the markets and the public.

  3. Schadenfreude? No so fast... by Penguinisto · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yes, it's good to see a patent pest get what's coming to 'em, but consider... the plaintiff was nothing more than a patent troll.

    Personally, *ALL* software patents should die.

    Good luck getting anyone in power to agree to that, though. :(

    --
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
  4. Re:Trolls war. by oodaloop · · Score: 3, Funny

    First they came for Facetime, but I said nothing because I don't use Facetime...

    --
    Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
  5. Per an Ars comment by arekin · · Score: 3, Informative

    "Design patents are extremely narrow - you have to do your level best to copy them exactly in order to be found in infringement. Plus, they specifically cannot cover functionality - that has to be covered by a utility patent, if it's going to be protected. This design patent only protects a "portable display device" (that's the wording in the Patent itself), and only one with those specific design elements that are shown in the Patent Figures."

    With this being the case I would imagine that you shouldn't see a lot of battles about this design patent unless someone is deliberately making counterfeit iPads (and by shouldn't I mean "but probably will").

    --
    Disagreeing with you does not make me a troll.
    1. Re:Per an Ars comment by MozeeToby · · Score: 3, Informative

      Did you notice though, that the only part of the drawing that wasn't dotted lines was the shape? The speaker, the button, the I/O ports, even the depth were drawn in dotted lines, meaning those features weren't part of what was being patented. The only thing patented by the new patent was the basic shape of the top surface of the device. Once you consider that screen aspect ratio is going to dictate device ratio, and the fact that no one wants a 90 degree corner jabbing them in the thigh, you're pretty well guaranteed to be infringing if you make a tablet in that size range.

  6. not quite by poetmatt · · Score: 3, Interesting

    live by the sword, die by the sword.

    Patent trolls suck, but apple has no defense against being victimized for it when they're trying to do the exact same thing. In fact, apple is worse because they have billions of dollars to shut down entire companies with. A troll does not.

    1. Re:not quite by elashish14 · · Score: 2

      Name one lawsuit that has been initiated by Google?

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      I have left slashdot and am now on Soylent News. FUCK YOU DICE.
  7. Re:Come on Obama! Patent reform! by Penguinisto · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Do some real business reforms and make everyone happy.

    Fat chance of that happening.

    At risk of sounding trollish, and no matter what your personal ideology on the matters, Obama got re-elected by pushing for as many niche issues as he possibly could - gay marriage, abortion, unions, you-name-it.

    He's got enough to do towards keeping those constituencies happy (even though he's lame-duck, his party isn't), and isn't going to have much time towards doing anything beyond that and the day-to-day stuff.

    --
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
  8. VirnetX is a real company by alen · · Score: 2

    look it up, they have a few patents part of the LTE- Advanced spec where all voice will be data. their part of the patent pool is security for SIP

  9. so sorry but... by CosaNostra+Pizza+Inc · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Sorry but I just don't feel any pity for Apple at all...not after the $1Billion law suit they brought against Samsung for patents on trivial things like rounded corners and icon grids. What goes around, comes around.

  10. Please stop calling "design patents" "patents". by John+Hasler · · Score: 4, Informative

    They are really more a kind of trademark registration. They deal only with appearance and never with utility.

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  11. Ahah by M0j0_j0j0 · · Score: 2

    In your FACE!!

  12. Open-source Facetime by SeaFox · · Score: 2

    Suddenly, it's becoming more clear why Apple did not, as they promised, release the information needed about the protocol to make third-party Facetime clients possible.

    They didn't truly own the rights to the methods for the connection.

    1. Re:Open-source Facetime by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Is there a coherent explanation anywhere of the "invention"? Their marketing fluff talks about secure-dns-vpns or some such nonsense, but none of the Facetime protocol analyses I've read found anything DNS or VPN related.

      (Even the "demo" video on their website only had some handwaving b.s. about automatic-secure-dns-vpns and their multi-billion dollar licensing potential.)

  13. Re:Come on Obama! Patent reform! by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Obama got re-elected by pushing for as many niche issues as he possibly could - gay marriage, abortion, unions, you-name-it.

    How are any of those niche issues? Anyone who works has an interest in unions. All women and most Christians have an interest in abortion. 5% of the population is gay and again a large number of Christians seem to care about it.

    --
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    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  14. I need QuickTime to view the patent diagrams? by Impish · · Score: 4, Interesting

    To view the Apple patent diagrams on the US patent site my browser informs me I need to run Apple Quicktime? Why isn't the patent office using PNG images?