Slashdot Mirror
Ask Slashdot: Developer Or Software Engineer? Can It Influence Your Work?
ctrahey writes "Many of us disregard the impact of our titles on various aspects of our lives, both professional and otherwise. Perhaps it's appropriate to ask two questions about the difference between a couple titles familiar to the Slashdot community: Developer vs Software Engineer. What are the factors to consider in the appropriate use of the titles? And (more interesting to me), what influence might the use of these titles have on the written code? Have you observed a difference in attitudes, priorities, or outlooks in talent as a corollary to their titles?"
Unless you have a degree in Software Engineering, it's both misleading and might be illegal to use the "Software Engineer" title in your country.
A programmer (developer?) writes code that hopefully works. A software engineer writes code that is designed to work.
I like to just say programmer.
Programmer.
Programmer.
Programmer.
Easy.... Use software engineer. It sounds richer so gets more babes ;)
Do you speak it?
Software Engineer: can build a flexible, properly designed application architecture and has grown past the schooled "everything fits within some methodology X" phase (i.e. can think outside the box).
Developer: will usually be able to make something that works, and even write quite nice code when given good direction, but can create a mess when given a chance to be a cowboy coder.
Of course, many programmers are somewhere in the middle, usually leaning more towards "engineering" when the deadline is months away and "developing" when the deadline is days away.
Palm trees and 8
I was a "Senior Software Engineer" before I got a promotion, now I'm a "Lead Developer". Aside from providing guidance to other engineers I still do the same job. Personally, I wanted my new title to be "Mr. Manager" instead, but no one seemed to like that idea :(. Seriously, I've worked in states where it's illegal to give someone without an engineering degree the title "Engineer", but I've worked with engineers who didn't finish college and found them every bit as good (sometimes much better) than the ones who didn't.
It doesn't make sense that a software engineer would need a degree in computer science. They are two different domains.
Maybe software tends to be so buggy because it isn't always engineered to be reliable. It's cobbled together in the lab, and if it works in the lab, the assumption is that it will work in the field.
Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
It would only be illegal if there was a public certification. There is no legislative authority in college program accreditation, or in determining titles. As long as someone is not misrepresenting their resume, there is nothing illegal with any title. I could call an employee "King of England" if I wanted to.
I would argue that a Software Engineer's role encompasses that of a Developer, as they are generally can also be expected to handle design (high and low level), testing (functional, unit, system), along with the writing of code. A Developer tends to fit the image of the guy with the keyboard cranking out code - software engineering is so much more than that. In fact, it is estimated that a Software Engineer will only spend 20% of the time actually writing code - due to the other responsibilities.
"Software is the difference between hardware and reality"
Ethics tests are pretty pointless in practice. There is a big difference between knowing ethics and being ethical.
I'm pretty sure 99.9% of convicted criminals knew they were committing a crime at the time...
Having been officially both a (senior) software developer and software engineer (at the same time) I prefer a different term entirely: Software Development Craftmaster (and the related Software Development Journey(wo)man and Software Development Apprentice).
I feel it more accurately reflects what I do. There are elements of engineering (in particular the discipline which takes years to develop) combined with high levels of creativity.
Just wish I could claim it legally, but there's no Software Development guild here.
Here in Canada, you have to be a licensed P.Eng to call yourself a software engineer. Even though I have an MSc from an EECS program, I would have to satisfy all the academic requirements of an undergrad engineer, work as a supervised engineer-in-training for between 2-4 years and pass a professional practice exam to qualify.
Women need to like the job of the guy they’re with. If they don’t like the job, they don’t like the guy. Men know this. Which is why we make up the phony, bogus names for the jobs that we have. “Well, right now, I’m the regional management supervisor. I’m in development, research, consulting...”
Men on the other hand – if they are physically attracted to a woman – are not that concerned with her job. Are we? Men don’t really care. Men’ll just go, “Really? Slaughterhouse? Is that where you work? That sounds interesting. So whaddaya got a big cleaver there? You’re just lopping their heads off? That sounds great! Listen, why don’t you shower up, and we’ll get some burgers and catch a movie.”
Outside of the countries where "Software Engineer" actually has a legal meaning and requirements to claim it (while "Developer", "Programmer", or whatever doesn't), the difference is largely that one sounds better than the other. People like to use "Software Engineer" even if they're in fact nothing of the sort, due to the connotation that comes with it.
It's not hard to find people calling themselves Software Engineers that aren't doing anything resembling engineering, just like it's not hard to find people calling themselves Developers that are really doing software engineering. In the end if you're able to do the job well, nobody gives a damn what you're calling yourself.
-- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
A (Chartered) Engineer is someone trusted by society and the law to get things right using state-of-the-art scientific knowledge. If their solution fails due to not using the "best practise" known at the time then the Engineer responsible is liable for a charge of professional negligence. Eg, A bridge collapses killing people, and it is found that the welding technique chosen by the engineer responsible for the design is outdated and known to be dangerous. That engineer faces a prison sentence for negligence.
The key difference is that an Engineer is held to be a professional, much like a Medical Doctor. They are trusted. Compare and contrast with, say, a Nurse, or a Mechanic. You would trust a mechanic to fix a car, but not to design a roadworthy model.
A professional is someone who is part of a legally recognized professional body which is responsible for setting the relevant standard of work, and who can kick out any member displaying incompetence. The Law generally requires one to hold a license from such a body in order to practise, and getting one always requires proving competencies to the body's requirements.
Ergo "IT Professional" is an oxymoron - there is no such thing. (apart from the Journal itself). Anyone can do IT, no license is required. In fact the only relevant body for setting such licensing standards would be the existing Electrical Engineering bodies.
Yes, the title "Engineer" is getting quite diffuse these days, as is the title "Doctor". But so long as the law makes a distinction, then common language will just have to bow before the law. Remember, ignorance of the law is usually not a valid defense. YMMV, it probably depends where you live, and what your Law says.
The whole issue is complicated by the fact that sales of software licenses have managed to sidestep the most basic consumer protection laws, such that "buyer beware" is the way things are. If a PC crashes, then who does the owner blame? Themselves, for not doing something correctly? The CPU vendor? The motherboard vendor? No, probably whoever they paid for the thing, most likely Dell, Apple or whichever shop they brought it from.
Shouldn't a certain number of crashes just be expected? Yes, BUT: Digital Computers allow for no entropy increase, therefore would be immune to the second law of thermodynamics. Except for physical damage, manufacturing tolerance, radiation damage, and operator error. (most notably, programmer error). Generally the first two are caught early, long before the final customer sees the device, and the third only really applies if the computer is going into space or is to be deployed near a strong radiation source.
The last is really a combination of the user and the programmer. The reason things are the way they are, is that preventing bugs before they surface is essentially impossible. And so computer engineers work down in the details - making only subsystems which they can test to their satisfaction. (eg, your car, your microwave oven, etc - how often do they "crash"? )
So, if you consider yourself a "software engineer", then you'd better be determined to use the most recent techniques, and only the best tools, and you'd better be prepared to take responsibility for any fault in your product... otherwise you're being fraudulent. If you're not prepared to put the effort in to use the very best techniques, then just call yourself a "developer" and be done with it.
Both places I've worked in my 11 years as a professional didn't really distinguish. I have a Computer Science and Engineering degree. I write and design software. I'm in the research and development arm (or the Engineering arm) of the company. It's several ways to say one thing.
Yes, some distinctions can be drawn, like whether you interface with customers, who does the architecture or design, etc., but in general the people I work with are all over the software life cycle, from beginning to end. We do development (of software) and the official job title has always had "Engineer" and sometimes "Development" or "Software" in it.
Terrorist, bomb, al Qaeda, nuclear, yellowcake, kill, assassinate. Carnivore is dead... long live Echelon.
In my opinion, those are just titles my friend and I see no reasons why we should ever consider them anything more.
"Sockets are the standard networking API, also useful for stopping your eyes from falling onto your cheeks" zeromq.org
You could just call yourself "wizard". Like 90% of the population treats either title differently than "wizard" anyway.
Whether I call myself a developer or software engineer will not affect my income. I'm old school (over 40) and I think that people building systems as long as I have tend not to care about titles. I'm not even sure there was a "software engineer" title when I started programming.
What I can say is that people that are coming out of college today calling themselves either tend to not have a clue what they are doing. (Of course there are exceptions, but the truly good people are hard to find.) And don't forget the recent title of "Software (or Data) Architect..." This idiots conceptualize a system, charge a ton of money, and have others build it. When it fails, they blame the developers and/or run to another job.
Then there are "Front End Developers," which are nothing more than a graphic/web designer that knows how to add some horribly written jQuery to a site and changed their name to developer in order to get paid more.
Essentially this whole debate is really about one huge issue: Large Companies are trying to turn the entire development process into something that can be done like an assembly line. They are chopping it up into little pieces so that anyone can perform the same monotonous task. The smaller your piece is, the more people that can focus on that specific area, the more people that can do it, the less you are worth. The less the companies pay, the happier they become. The more pieces there are, the more titles.
Unfortunately, (or fortunately if you really know what you are doing) the development process is not easy to break down into pieces. While certain pieces can be farmed out, the overall system will work best when one person knows how to build the system as a whole and can take the project from the requirements to a working application. (And companies rarely want to pay for these good people.)
Looking for a job?
Want your resume written professionally?
DON'T USE TUNAREZ!!!
"Sadly, the answer is no to all of these. The person who cuts your hair has more certification than the person who writes pacemaker software."
Yes, I have read about issues with pacemakers... but I've also had bad haircuts. Certification by the State is no guarantee that you will be good at your job.
If I had some plant that was failing at 3:15am and costing me a fortune, I know which I would prefer to have on site.
-- In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was UNSIGNED, and the main(){} was without form and void...
What if you just ramble on about .Net and quibble over which IDE is better, all the while saying words like "Scrum" and "Agile"?
Sure you'll get a job, but you won't ever actually produce anything.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
The salary difference reported by Modis (recruiters mostly working for bigcorps and venture-backed companies) may have more reflection on which job title is preferred by bigcorps (who often pay more) than anything else.
If that's true that will only be due to useless group that managed to build in a level of protectionism to milk people in the trade of cutting hair for money. Because basically just about anyone can cut hair and many parents cut their children's hair for them to save money. Certification certainly isn't required.
Here's how I've observed some terms used:
- Coder: a person who knows how to bang out some software code; often used disparragingly. cf "Code Monkey"
- Programmer: Any person who makes software for a living. Used mostly when speaking with non-technical people, because they immediately understand what it means.
- Developer: Neutral term for a person who makes software.
- Software Engineer: A developer who favors a heavily-planned approach to making software.
- Software Architect: Someone who designs applications or systems. May be "hands on" and themselves write significant parts of the application; or maybe more of a management role.
There is a reason people laugh and mock people who call themselves Software Engineers outside of the IT World. They are fluff titles. Even at its best, Computers Engineering is just a subset of Electrical Engineering focused on the designs of hardware from the CPU/GPU/DSP, etc., and their interaction with Software.
Whether it is Mechanical, Electrical, Chemical, Biomechanical [Applied ME with Biology], Civil, Structural, Materials Science Engineering disciplines are grounded in mutable laws of engineering extended from the laws of Physics, Chemistry, Biology, through all applicable languages of Mathematics Disciplines.
Bill Joy has long wished for Software Engineering to become factual by taking cues from Mechanical Engineering [though since he never has been a Mechanical Engineer I doubt he realizes how impractical that wish will ever be], due to the innate Art behind Computer Programming, Computer Architecture, Computer Software Design, etc.
In order for Software Engineering to be a recognized Engineering Discipline via ABET one would expect them to take Thermodynamics/Thermodynamic Systems, Dynamic Systems, Materials Science Engineering, Finite Element Analysis and more where one applies the various electives to writing Software applications to apply said disciplines--the exact reality all Engineering disciplines due for zero credit or recognition.
You want an Engineering Degree, then get one. You want a Computer Science degree and it's several specialties than get one. Stop pretending they are equivalent. None of my former CS majors ever compared our CS degree curriculum to my Mechanical Engineering curriculum. Mechanical Engineering is a very broad and deep curriculum now with several areas including Tribology, MEMS, Robotics [Applied Kinematics with EE/ME control systems], along with their many other tracks in Machine Design, Fracture Mechanics, Dynamic Systems, Heat Transfer Disciplines, etc].
Stop calling yourselves Software Engineers. You aren't designing solutions that adhere to Computer Science Laws. You are designing to Best Practices, Design Patterns, all centered around Semantics/Linguistics/Discrete mathematics, applied logic and other Art disciplines. Embrace the Art. Stop pawning yourselves off as Engineers.
The Engineer in Training Exam provided by every state in the United States is a comprehensive exam [8 hours] over your past 5 years that allows one to reduce the time it takes [under a Principle Engineer (Often mistaken as Professional Engineer)] to then qualify and apply to become a P.E., from 12 years under a P.E., licensed and bonded down to 4 years.
The lack of understanding the IT World has for the parent worlds of Engineering is staggering.
I remember at one job I had to call up HR once and ask them what my title was. But it did gradually dawn on me that you don't want to be a title step lower than people who are equally or less skilled than you are. It does affect how others see you in the company and ultimately may affect your salary and promotion prospects, although I don't believe my own career has been derailed much by not caring.
I'm a coder, I write code. Or call me a programmer, a developer, or software engineer (just don't call me Shirley)
They all mean the same thing. And no there is no "a programmer bangs out code, and a software engineer "designs" it first. They both do the same thing. A programmer writes code, which involves "engineering" it first. A software engineer also writes code, which involves "engineering" it first. There is no distinction, although some people like to think there is.
But really does it matter? If my boss wants to call me "master of the universe" then great, I still write code.
What it comes down to, when people ask what I do, I say "I am a programmer" or "I am a computer programmer." Pretty much everyone knows what that means. If I said 'I'm a developer' people thing I own land, and develop it. If I said "software engineer" people would think I drive trains or build bridges.
You write code, stop being so stuck up!