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Google Outage Shows Risk of Doing Business In China
Hugh Pickens writes "The WSJ reports that widespread disruptions to Google in China over the weekend, halting use of everything from Google's search engine to its Gmail email service to its Google Play mobile-applications store, underscore the uncertainty surrounding Beijing's effort to control the flow of information into the country, as well as the risks that effort poses to the government's efforts to draw global businesses. The source of the disruptions couldn't be determined, but Internet experts pointed to China's Internet censorship efforts, which have been ratcheted up ahead of the 18th Party Congress. 'There appears to be a throttling under way of Web access,' says David Wolf, citing recent articles in foreign media about corruption and wealth in China spurred by the party congress and the fall of former party star Bo Xilai, 'that's their primary concern, people getting news either through Google or through its services.' Beijing risks a backlash if it were to block Google outright on a long-term basis, says Wolf and such a move could put Beijing in violation of its free-trade commitment under the World Trade Organization and make China a less-attractive place to do business. 'If China insists in the medium and long term of creating another Great Firewall between the China cloud and the rest of the world, China will be an increasingly untenable place to do business.'"
Just stop doing business with China, then.
They do this crap because they know they can get away with it, since everybody will try to do business with and in China anyway.
If you care, just take a firm stance and do business elsewhere.
if this could be related to the BGP routes issue last week
http://blog.cloudflare.com/why-google-went-offline-today-and-a-bit-about
seriously, there should be a 1 strike rule on announcing prefixes that are
not in control of the announcing entity.
dreaded scurrilous bit-twiddler from Oklahoma
10:58AM Nice copy paste bro!
to do business?
really?
since when do we CARE ONE BIT about freedom when it comes to the almighty dollar?
we'll be in china even if they start executing puppies and kittens in the streets.
there is nothing in this world that will cause western capitalism to turn its back on china.
stop acting like we have any morals here. we don't. we worship money and anything that gets in its way we will stomp on.
other than that, we could really care less what they do. and they care less about what we do.
as long as money flows, the guys who run things are happy to eat popcorn on the sidelines and watch the world burn.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
China lacks rule of law, it only has rule of the rulers.
Thats the big problem with doing business in China, there is no actual Rule of law.
Test your net with Netalyzr
... the point is that China isn't adhering to the free trade treaties they've signed by blocking companies possibilities to do business on a whim.
you see - it's NOT in the law that you can't use Google in China. it's just that they decided to block it for some time now, purely on gut feeling. no laws, no courts, just random decisions.
that's pretty much why it's risky to do business in China and other random dictatorialships in general like Russia. You run immense risks of your business being taken away on a whim. That's also why some places have really hard time attracting investment money despite possibilities for good profits from business, as those places have a really poor track record of having consistent application of law which is pretty much a requirement if you don't want to gamble with your business.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
What was the purpose of your rant? Your first sentence is about being blocked in China and it was a general blanket statement.
The following 5 paragraphs have absolutely NOTHING to do with being blocked. Only a tangent about Google not being popular in other random countries. Are you actually trying to relate Google being blocked with their lack of popularity or was this just a springboard to bitch about unrelated things?
New account, two posts. Very little on topic content
What we have here is a shill. Moderators were fooled.
Moderators weren't fooled (I certainly wasn't). Chances are the shill also has a bunch of moderator shills going along with it. Don't worry, the score is dropping back down.
Looking at the current state of things, hasn't Google already withdrawn from mainland China more or less? If the government would make the decision to block Google's services because they are somehow not abiding Chinese law, I don't doubt they could do so easily.
I live in west china and starting some time last week, is the only time I've had problems accessing Gmail. There hasn't been any complete blocking, but access have been slow and sporadic in a way that I would usually assume is just issues with the service itself. The only odd thing is that it's always worked flawlessly before and it's coincidence with the congress.
I ask because unlike other 'major' western democracies, the UK has no written constitution and its doing well.
So again I ask: Should China have the "rule of law", just because some western countries have it?
Let's remember that it's one thing to have rules and it's another to actually follow them. Some governments in the west have ignored their own rules too. Just saying.
I know it's cliche to call 'shrill' around here, but... it is no secret that the Chinese government employs an army of propagandists, mostly part-timers, with the job of patroling the internet looking for Chinese blogs and discussion forums and defending the government from criticism. I am not aware if they extend the program to English-language sites, but if they do, the above post is exactly what I would expect them to post. Some of those lines, like 'This includes abiding Chinese laws if you want to do business there,' are straight out of the government policy and perfectly echo previous statements by officials on such matters.
The fact is, Google is not struggling because the Great Firewall or because the government makes competition hard. Google is struggling on their own regards and only by themselves. They seem not to be able to justify their existence in China and doesn't seem to offer Chinese citizens what they want.
Hmm, it only takes one paragraph to tell that you're talking out of your ass. Have you ever tried to use any Google service from China? Do you have the faintest idea how long does it take to load one page of search results, or how often does the Wall reset all connections to Google from your IP for one full minute, for some censorship filter was triggered by the most ordinary and unoffensive search terms? And these things are not exactly good for business.
I suppose this is just another thing that needs to be repeated until it is generally accepted. You know, kind of like "smoking is bad for you and everyone around you."
There are ample examples of how doing business in China have turned really bad on all scales. It is especially obvious when heavy tech such as aircraft and train manufacturing have been screwed over by the promises of the Chinese government which were later revoked causing amazing damage to the companies who put their faith in what they were told.
We all want to have those WalMart prices in everything we buy. Lower costs of everything from materials and manufacturing to labor and delivery are things we ALL want. But there are risks and I measure those risks with every transaction I make on eBay. (And I am talking about pennies, not billions of dollars.) The risk is heavy on my mind always. But then again, it's the question of risk isn't it?
These days, whether people realize it or not, but the risk to business has largely been shifted to employees and the general population. When things fail or go badly, who feels the pinch worse? The people on wall street or the people on the street? Somehow, we got to a place where risk is socialized and rewards are privatized.
So yeah.... there is risk to doing business with china, but the risk is socialized... it's on all of us and we have little we can say or do about it.
Wow you typed all that at 10:58AM? Looks like Burson-Marsteller is getting more skilled at gaming slashdot.
You have to abide laws everywhere in the world. This includes abiding Chinese laws..
Right; so how about: The Chinese government starts following Chinese law, in particular article 35 or the Chinese constitution which says:
or this:
And how about, companies like Microsoft, Cisco and so on, start obeying Chinese law by treating those that break that article of the constitution as criminals and stop doing business with them?
=~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
Mod parent up. All this also applies to users who buy stuff from stuff made in China, which is about everybody.
If you think enough people are willing to buy only American (or European or whatever) start a company that does just that and become rich. Unfortunately you will fail, because not enough people care.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Troll moderation is SO unfair...
Nothing forces a corporation to uphold the rights of ANYONE without some outside influence. If they can game the system they'll do it.
While some particularly "sensitive" content might be technically in violation of Chinese law (the law might be wrong even then, but that's a different matter), the majority of the GFW'd content are not illegal, even in China, and very often they would not even be considered sensitive in any way. On the other hand, we do have computer security laws, and disrupting the public Internet via passive and active attacks, as the so-called GFW does, is probably as illegal as they are in developed countries, and I am not aware of any law that grants special permission to such behavior, as it has little to do with either law enforcement or national security.
We still have many "old-thinkers" in high positions that do not realize the importance of network security or even rule of law, let alone free speech. It would be extremely attractive for companies to exploit the naivete of such people for their own profit; in other words, it is protectionism, and a rather corrupt form at that. While I don't know who is actually doing this, I find it rather unlikely that nobody has thought of this.
You have to abide laws everywhere in the world. This includes abiding Chinese laws if you want to do business there. China has many gigantic internet companies that tailor their sites and products specifically to Chinese market and they are doing just fine.
Laws? What part of the OP mentioned laws? In what way is any of what you said related to the disruptions?
It's not "towed" the line. It's not a rope. The phrase is "toed" the line, as in, someone drew a line in the sand and you are sticking your toe across the line, challenging them.
Battlemaster--Game with friends in medival realms
All mighty dollar?
Somewhat of a stretch isn't it?
http://goldprice.org/gold-price-history.html#10_year_gold_price
They're just degrading service, rather than blocking it. If you degrade service, people will naturally move away because they will think it is the service's fault, not the government's fault.
Is it just me, or isn't this exactly the same as submitting an app to the Apple App store?
You never know if you'll be allowed entry, and can get the boot anytime for no reason...
I'm pretty sure that it refers to the start of a race or competition where the participants step to the line w/o crossing it. Given that it generally means to adher to rules or laws this makes more sense...
The phrase is "toed" the line, as in, someone drew a line in the sand and you are sticking your toe across the line, challenging them.
Close. Toeing the line means you keep your ties right at the line without crossing it, thus you are specifically obeying all of the rules and not challenging authority.
Even gold is priced in Dollars.
Its got nothing to do with morals. Businesses won't operate in China if they can be shut down on a whim, much too risky.
and if the internal operation of your business depends on something as flaky as the internet then prepare for profit loses.
Chinese gov. is counting on businesses being lead by short-thinking greedy fools. Look at Trans-Mag, Germany's cool and innovative mag-lev. China agreed to buy it and gave assurances that their tech would not be stolen. To assure that, Germany had posted guards at various locations to stop China from entering. Then China simply sent in the red army, forced the doors open and allowed a number of engineers/academia's to look over the tech. As such, China is now developing a number of new low-cost mag-levs based on Germany's approach.
Boeing and Airbus have been FOOLISH in allowing China to do various parts of planes. Sadly, Boeing gives one part of a plane to China and buys Boeing. But then China approached Airbus and says that if you will give us a different part from an airbus plane, then we will put that plane on the approved list. IOW, Chinese gov. is making sure that they get access to ALL of the tech because so many western companies think short-term.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I've used gmail for several years now (here in the USA)...and it's /always/ kludgy. No matter where I log on, no matter when (and no matter which laptop/netbook/PC I use). I use various wifi services, from libraries to coffeehouses. Always: Gmail is slow, laborious, and not very intuitive.
Is this proof of gov't/corporate intrusion; or just the result of crappy company policy?
I'm surprised (and a bit envious) that China got such good Google service for so long, till now. Guess the honeymoon's over!
Sadly, it is not the risk that is socialized. Only the losses. Any gains, no matter how short, stay with the foolish western company and the investors.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
cf title
They actually do kill cats for food in the streets via flailing, so you've got that going for your post
If the USA wants to see its economy survive, this is the time for a total embargo of all Chinese made, owned, or controlled products.
Sure, Americans will scream and hate having to pay higher prices.
If they want jobs, there is no longer any choice.
This will never happen though.
The 1% make too much money from China.
Gold is priced in anything.
I can buy gold for SEK, I could likely trade gold for silver and if I offered you enough gold you'd sell me a house.
You should be ware of doing business using Google as if you have all your business depending on one vendor then when the vendor is or not made available you are stuck.
China is not my best friend but they have their political and economical reason for controlling information as we like to think we have the right to do the same in the US. On the other hand, Google is a private corporation to whom we tend to entrust way too much information to.
Good luck
I know it's cliche to call 'shrill' around here,
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Perhaps you meant "shill"? That's still not quite the right term for what you've described, but it's a lot closer than adjective describing a certain auditory characteristic. No?
Doing legal business inside the USA doesn't seem to be any better for some companies.
* ICE can and will take over your host.
* Domains can and will be seized withuot due process
* DCMA takedowns overrule sensible checks
The USA isn't any better these days.
I don't really believe all this, it was just to make a point. The Chinese government is bad too, but at least there, you expect to be screwed when you do business. Just ask Seimens, Microsoft, Apple, Qualcom, and any other non-Chinese company attempting to do business there.
It's "couldn't care less". If you could care less about it, then that means that you do care.
However, the rest of what you say, I agree with 100%.
you are sticking your toe across the line, challenging them.
Wow, you got the exact opposite meaning of the phrase. Excellent.
Thus proving the point that every time you correct someone, your probably wrong. :)
sorry but you are wrong.
today, already, businesses can be 'shut down' by the US gov in the US or the china gov in china. even if you follow laws, the US can shut you down if they 'want to'. they can grab your domain and hold onto it and return it, maybe, years later with no apology.
does this stop business?
NO!
they consider punative things 'cost of doing business'. its in their cost analysis they all do. they assume they'll get sued for X amount, have to pay Y sometimes, and still the remainder makes it worth it.
even if they lose all tooling and IP they have in china, they (the company) still has probably made enough to justify a short stay there. and when the 'all clear' horn is sounded, they'll pop up as another name and start all over again.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Thus proving the point that every time you correct someone, your probably wrong. :)
My probably wrong what? What's this about my probably wrong?
"City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
Woosh.
They won't fail because not enough people care. They will likely run into insurmountable difficulties. The chain for any given product is likely tied to something from China and/or other similar states. There are I'm sure many commodities for instance that aren't sourced here or non-commodities for that matter. The last remaining mines for rare earth are an example. However if you look at electronics there are only a handful of companies designing any particular piece. Are you going to run your business off paper manufactured in the USA? Because if you are your likely breaking the law. Many states have passed laws/rules/etc which require your to submit and pay taxes online.
I did, yes. As for the meaning, if you ignore the spelling error, I believe my usage is accurate. My understanding is that it refers to a person who advocates for an entity with which they are in some manner associated, but without disclosing that association? In this case I was raising the possibility that a comment like that shows characteristics of one of the many people paid by the Chinese government to post in their defense on the internet.
I doubt it really was though. A slashdot user with a rich history like DevTecha would just take too much effort to fake. If it was an AC, then I'd be much more suspicious.
Isn't this what the US govt did to Huawei and ZTE? Oh wait, you actually believe they are a threat to national security. My bad.
So according to you, everybody that doesn't hate the Chinese govt is a paid tool of that government. Jesus.
Well, lets look at that.
There's a country that is still breaking their WTO commitments for, among other things, putting a protectionist tariff on Canadian softwood.
This doesn't seem to have hurt their standing and caused WTO to go all nuclear on their ass...
I take it you have never been in China? The only risk right now is not doing business in China. The western world is broke, these guys are a manufacturing powerhouse, cheap labor, cheap housing. Don't be a fear monger if you don't know what you are talking about please. Expanding into Asia is a great way to improve your business, no matter what you are producing.
Why is this informative? It's wrong.
And you may have to leave your stuff behind, but that's no different from losing all those apps you bought neither.
Correct.
The archaic derivation seems to be:
TOE THE LINE
The space between each pair of deck planks in a wooden ship was filled with packing material called âoeoakumâ and then sealed with a mixture of pitch and tar. The result, from afar, was a series of parallel lines and a half-foot or so apart, running the length of the deck. Once a week, as a rule, usually on Sunday, a warshipâ(TM)s crew was ordered to fall in at quartersâ"that is, each group of men into which the crew was divided would line up in formation in a given area of the deck. To insure a neat alignment of each row, the sailors were directed to stand with their toes just touching a particular seam. Another use for these seams was punitive. The youngsters in a ship, be they shipâ(TM)s boy or student officers, might be required to stand with their toes just touching a designated seam for a length of time as punishment for some minor infraction of discipline, such as talking or fidgeting at the wrong time. A tough captain might require the miscreant to stand there, not talking to anyone, in fair weather or foul, for hours at a time. Hopefully, he would learn it was easier and more pleasant to conduct himself in the required manner rather that suffer the punishment. From these two uses of deck seams comes our cautionary word to obstreperous youngsters to âoetoe the line.â
Why is this modded troll? Google, like the Chinese themselves hate to see a bad word said about them. Parent is a sensible post, not offensive and offers an alternative point of view
Google outage shows only the risk in doing business with Google and nothing else. Stop cold war rants.
I think it's TOAD the line. Origin either from battletoads or Toad The Wet Sprocket's unreleased next album, together with a TARDIS mishap innoculating 18th century culture with the phrase and underlying pop culture context enough to sustain it.
(Yeah, mine may be wrong, but it's not utterly backwards like thinking to toe the line is to challenge authority. Oopsie.)
The first statement was basically if you don't like China, don't play with them, fair enough and on point but... In the same paragraph it then associates that with why Google sucks and their business model in China and Russia sucks and blah blah. Hardly insightful or informative at all. It was a new poster and a new account with two posts. It was posted (and top posted) for a reason and that reason was a shill, not to get the conversation going, not to show a different side of the story and not as a reply to someone with a different view. You can spot those type of posts a mile away.
It was a point of view but not one related to the topic at all.
Well, there are risks in doing business in China. Really, if you think you should not interest in politics, then politics will have interest in you. But in that case, it is to depend on Google for things like email that seems like the bad decision, in my opinion. When you are in China, you knowwithout being a conspiracy theorist, that the government does eavesdrop on you, or at least can.
What will you do the day where the SSL certificate from Google says it is invalid? Will you really resist getting to your email account once it is solved? Will all of your employees? How will you tell them not to, without email? Do not use gmail, have your emails in a local client, have backup smtps and VPNs. And fund Tor if you do business in China : this is an infrastructure you may need in such a time. Seriously, think about it : all your competitors are down for a day. How much is it worth to still be running?
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
Not this one. Look at the user history - too elaborate to be worth the effort of faking. What I mean is the obvious: Doubt anyone you find on the internet.
Isn't this what the US govt did to Huawei and ZTE? Oh wait, you actually believe they are a threat to national security. My bad.
If you ever lived or worked in China, it wouldn't be so difficult to believe that it would be a national security threat.
The western world is not "broke." When the western world is "in debt" the next question is "two whom?" That's where you will find some obvious answers to obvious questions.
We don't need to do business with China. We *want* to save a few bucks to increase our profits or at least to lower our costs. Without these savings or cost reductions, how can we guarantee a ridiculously large bonus... a bonus so large that even people in the top 25% earning bracket would never make so much in a life time.
We live in a time of incredible greed and lust for power. The banks own the nations of the world. But I learned something about debt some time ago. It's only something to worry about when someone else is willing to do something to you as a result. In our case, it's pretty much nothing to worry about. The "federal reserve bank" is not about to foreclose on the US or any other country. The moment they do, they become immediately visible and all debts get cancelled by virtue of revolution.
WSJ is yet another masturbating eunuch.
Nobody is holding a gun to Sergey and Larry's head to be in China.
If businesses don't like it, they are perfectly free to leave the country.
But it appears businesses don't have a problem with being in China (are you writing this down WSJ?), which is forecast to overtake the United States as the largest economy in the world in 2016 (no citation, just heard it on television).
"There appears to be a throttling under way of Web access," said David Wolf, founder of consulting firm Wolf Group Asia.
So this little piece of booger is telling people not to do business with China...But his company appears to be trying to profit from "Asia".
So Dave, which is it? Are you about to shut down your business?
Google's predicament in China is entirely self created. Google elected to leave China in response to a hack attack perpetrated / tolerated by the Chinese government. Mr. Brin played a large part in the decision largely based on his experience growing up in Russia. China != Russia. Google made a huge mistake leaving China. Google used to own half of the market, now they own a fraction. Eventually Google will make a good business decision and return to China, but until then those of us living in China will just have to deal with Google's infantile hubris.
The way to affect change is to be active in the community. With Google out of China the Chinese government has no use for them. For the most part Chinese people do not care one iota about Google. As a businessman doing business in China I can tell you emphatically I do not care about Google or their market share in China. Google is a Harvard Business School textbook case of what NOT to do in China. And David Wolf's statement that if work on the Great Firewall continues China "will be an increasingly untenable place to do business" is a joke. Google's failure in China does not affect those doing business in China.
Actually, the article is right.
I am a businessman in China.
They don't mean "untenable" as in not breaking moral conscience or human rights or laws common to human societies.
They mean "untenable" as in difficult to make money.
The Chinese Communist Party has made current China and its Chinese without any morals or loyalty. It is common knowledge everyone's goal there is to get rich as quickly as possible using corruptions and cheating and outright violence, so that they can get foreign passports for themselves and their immediate familys to flee China. (which every high government officials and rich person have done successfully)
What this means in business is that there is no long-term incentive for anything e.g. basic research, integrity, trust, loyalty to business partners or companies etc.
Therefore for foreign companies trying to do business in China it has become "untenable" because after you have invested money you find your assets and business stolen by your employees and people all around you, money extorted by local officials, and whole business taken from you literally by the state.
Ofcourse, for such "business model" without any core value or laws it won't last forever.
It can manage for a period, with central planning, mass everyone to modernize and spark high growth to the untrained eyes. But ultimately it is borrowing from the future and inevitably the whole system will come collapsing down like a house of cards.
Because like a house of cards, there is no collective rules and regulations, no moral guidance, no incentive for long-term common goals.
In the near future (no one can predict exactly when) China's economy will run into a wall (if not already because official figures surely won't tell you). At that stage things become really interesting with the Chinese Communist Party, because they only thing they can offer the people in return for ruthless dictatorship i.e. high economic growth, is no longer available.
It will be a place of 1.3 billion very angry people who are set loose. (they are already very angry right now with massive social unrest all across the board)
It may not happen tomorrow, or next week, but it is bound to happen because what is outlined above is just basic classic human conditions.
He probably has a mental picture of a lion at the end of a rope. He just misspelled "lion."
Free Martian Whores!
What, that a company from a country we "don't like" is out to get us in ways we don't understand, but they should trust us, even though we've actively done what we are accusing them of doing? That's the pot calling the blue sky black.
Learn to love Alaska
Please see my post above about how the Chinese idea of "law" relates to their legal and governmental systems. Basically, you see a connection between the constituion that is based on a western standard. Let me explain:
The constitution is used in China to inform the language of the legislature. They carefully craft laws that do not overtly contravene/contradict the constitution. However, there is no mediator of the law/ constitution dichotomy after that. The legal system exists only to determine the correctness of the executive's actions in arresting someone for breaking a law. There is no possibility for the judiciary to discuss the constitutionality of any particular law. Your assume that as a role of the judiciary, but in China it is just not so.
Once the legislature has passed a law, it is the law, period. The only possible action to follow would be to revoke the law by legislative action, which does happen, but never in the public eye.
To ensure a neat alignment of each row
Sorry, copypasta.
Should have given it a shufti before posting.