Slashdot Mirror


Should Inventions Be Automatically Owned By Your Employer?

An anonymous reader writes "Joshua Simmons authored an article for the N.Y.U. Journal of Intellectual Property and Entertainment Law. The article is a comparison of the developments in copyright law and patent law in the nineteenth century that resulted in copyright law developing a work made for hire doctrine while patent law only developed a patch work of judge-made employment doctrines. The article theorizes that patent law did not develop an inventions made for hire doctrine, because inventive activity was almost exclusively perceived to be performed by individuals. It goes on to suggest that, as patentable inventions today are generally perceived to be invented collaboratively, the Patent Act should be amended to borrow from the Copyright Act and adopt a principle similar to the work made for hire doctrine."

37 of 291 comments (clear)

  1. A rate should be set at hire by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    By default/law, make it 50/50, and then let employers and potential employees negotiate.

    1. Re:A rate should be set at hire by Alex+Belits · · Score: 3, Funny

      Please re-read what you just said. You just made a great argument against what you are arguing for.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    2. Re:A rate should be set at hire by camperdave · · Score: 5, Informative

      I've never seen any "only while on the job" language in any contract. The language I see is more along the line of "as long as you are employed by XYZ, all your inventions are belong to us."

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    3. Re:A rate should be set at hire by grcumb · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've never seen any "only while on the job" language in any contract. The language I see is more along the line of "as long as you are employed by XYZ, all your inventions are belong to us."

      I and a number of other staff negotiated 'only on the job' language in our employment contracts back in 2000, so yeah, it happens.

      These days, I require such language. I have no problem with works for hire, but I do have a problem with someone else taking credit for something in which they were never involved.

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    4. Re:A rate should be set at hire by Eskarel · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Welcome the world of unenforceable contract terms.

      IANAL, but like non compete terms, most "all your base are belong to us" terms are overly broad and non enforceable. You of course have to actually go to court, be able to afford a lawyer who can find his or her own body parts in a darkened room and once again most importantly be able to afford a lawyer who can find his or her own body parts in a darkened room, but generally speaking as I understand it, if you create in your own time on your own equipment and can prove it the invention is yours, even if you've done it on work equipment they'll generally only end up with a free perpetual license as opposed to actual ownership of the idea. I'm fairly certain this applies to copyright which does have work for hire so I don't see why it wouldn't apply for patents as well.

      It's the magic of the legal system though, your employer gets you to sign an idiotic contract clause because you're afraid you won't get the job knowing that you are incredibly unlikely to actually challenge said term, even if the legal team know full well it'd get tossed out if you did.

    5. Re:A rate should be set at hire by rtb61 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Wrong, you are paid to do what you are paid to do. Inventions can only be owned by your employer if you are paid to sit on your arse all day long thinking and trying to invent things. If you are paid to code they own the code, not any inventions. If you are paid to calculate they own the product of the calculations not any inventions. Of course not to forget fuck all catch all clauses as they are clearly false in intent and there is no way they can claim when you invented anything, their paid for time or in your time. You or your mind is never, ever a slave to someone else's greed, regardless what psychopath corporate douche bags like Thomas Edison try to write in contracts so that they can publicly claim to invent things other people actually did.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    6. Re:A rate should be set at hire by BVis · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Gee, Bank of America, I'm sorry I don't have a job and can't pay my mortgage, but you'll be happy to know that I turned down a gig on principle!"

      Yeah, see how far that gets you. Not to mention, if you're collecting unemployment benefits and you turn down a job, you disqualify yourself from any further benefits.

      Then there's the whole "US health insurance industry" problem, where getting cancer while not insured is fatal to either yourself or your entire economic identity. Most people don't have any choice but to get health insurance through their employer and, thanks to the for-profit health insurance industry, paying for your care out-of-pocket will cost you everything you own.

      Yeah, you'll be taking what we offer and you'll like it. If you don't like the language in the employment agreement, I'm sure we'll find someone that does.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
  2. Depends .... by DaMattster · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you've invented this on your own time, money, and resources there is no way in the shady side of hell that your employer should have any ownership of it. If you did this while being compensated by your employer, the situation is different. If you've used your employer's money and resources, then it is fair.

    1. Re:Depends .... by pwizard2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you're on the clock at work, then yes, it counts as a work/invention for hire. Even if you're salaried and don't really clock in, the invention/project should be 100% yours if it's something you invent/build out of your own house or garage.

      People have a life outside of work, after all.

      --
      "It is a denial of justice not to stretch out a helping hand to the fallen; that is the common right of humanity."
    2. Re:Depends .... by icebike · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you've invented this on your own time, money, and resources there is no way in the shady side of hell that your employer should have any ownership of it. If you did this while being compensated by your employer, the situation is different. If you've used your employer's money and resources, then it is fair.

      Well that depends...

      Most people can't compartmentalize their lives that completely. This is especially so when engaged in intellectual work (as opposed to factory drone work where you can simply flip a switch in your brain as you walk out the door).

      So if I hire you to develop a left handed corner scraper and in the process you create a patentable piece of work, you might claim (truthfully) that the idea came to you while sitting on the throne in your house on a sunday afternoon when you saw the reflection of the light switch in the mirror.

      Still, had you not been working for me explicitly on this project, you would, in all probability, never have had that spark of intuition.

      Its too easy for you to claim you had the idea after work hours. Every body mulls over work problems at home.

      Similarly, if you are employed to handle billing for your company and you stumble upon a totally unrelated idea, say for a new fishhook, on your day off or even on the job, its too easy for the company to claim it.

      Fishhooks have nothing to do with billing. Everybody mulls over recreational problems while at work.

      There needs to be a rational separation, such that your employer can only claim and idea when:
      1) the invention must have some relevance to your work duties
      2) you must be employed specifically to design/build/invent stuff
      3) you must have made some use of your employers facilities or time to develop, build, and test the invention
      4) you had access to some of your employer's proprietary information that helped you
      5) ??

      The night watchman at the Boeing plant plant that invents a new nose gear part after years of watching planes
      take off from his post in the guard station should still get to keep his design.
      The engineer or mechanic working on nose gear installation: Not so much.

      There is still a lot of grey areas, but at least rules like the above would eliminate a lot of patent grabbing. (From both sides).

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    3. Re:Depends .... by gr8_phk · · Score: 4, Informative

      If you're on the clock at work, then yes, it counts as a work/invention for hire.

      Nope. It's still yours in the U.S. Most employers who anticipate any inventing on the job require you to sign an agreement at the time of hire stating that everything you invent is theirs. Some of these agreements are very nice and cover job related stuff, others try to include unrelated stuff you think of in the shower. And even then, you have to sign paperwork to assign an individual invention to the company.

    4. Re:Depends .... by Shoten · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If you've invented this on your own time, money, and resources there is no way in the shady side of hell that your employer should have any ownership of it. If you did this while being compensated by your employer, the situation is different. If you've used your employer's money and resources, then it is fair.

      Well that depends...

      Most people can't compartmentalize their lives that completely. This is especially so when engaged in intellectual work (as opposed to factory drone work where you can simply flip a switch in your brain as you walk out the door).

      So if I hire you to develop a left handed corner scraper and in the process you create a patentable piece of work, you might claim (truthfully) that the idea came to you while sitting on the throne in your house on a sunday afternoon when you saw the reflection of the light switch in the mirror.

      Still, had you not been working for me explicitly on this project, you would, in all probability, never have had that spark of intuition.

      Its too easy for you to claim you had the idea after work hours. Every body mulls over work problems at home.

      Similarly, if you are employed to handle billing for your company and you stumble upon a totally unrelated idea, say for a new fishhook, on your day off or even on the job, its too easy for the company to claim it.

      Fishhooks have nothing to do with billing. Everybody mulls over recreational problems while at work.

      So here's an example to draw upon that shows how the compartments still happen, regardless of how steeped in our work we are.

      I do cyber security, and I absolutely live, drink and breathe it. Several years back, I had been working on a book under contract. The book was germane to my field of professional expertise. I wrote it on my own time, on my own computer, and the content had nothing to do with my current employer. (Just to make sure that part's clear.) I got bored in my job, having hit a point where things were progressing no further, and gracefully started exiting. I had an offer from a company (let's call them "AC, which is the letters of the company name but rearranged") and was in the process of taking it, even having given notice at my current employer and started helping them look for a successor. Then, I got their intellectual property agreement, which stated that anything I put out was their property...ANYTHING...during my employment with them. I'd seen this before, and had asked at prior jobs...the solution is to tack on an exception for this or that thing, and that's how it's always gone. So no problem, right?

      Wrong. I called the recruiter, and he said they make no changes, no exceptions. I pointed out that they would be effectively stealing from me, as by this point the book was actually done, and just waiting to hit the printers. No flexibility. So I declined the job offer after all, and ended up taking a different one...which turned out to be much, much better in the end. Pity, as AC had plans for me to travel to a client and be the centerpiece of a project that was kicking off. They suddenly developed "flexibility for an exception," but by that point, I was past having any desire to interact with them on any level whatsoever, much less steer my career through the middle of that company. I went to work at EDS, and did beautifully. (Until HP bought them, that is...but that's another profanity-laden rant.)

      --

      For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
    5. Re:Depends .... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      People have a life outside of work, after all.

      What a quaint and archaic concept.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    6. Re:Depends .... by jhoegl · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As most high level positions are Salary, I dont think "on the clock" works for everyone.

    7. Re:Depends .... by Phrogman · · Score: 4, Funny

      Life outside of work - I call that *sleep* usually...

      --
      "The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
    8. Re:Depends .... by icebike · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I've actually had an employer that wanted to license what I developed at home, and he wanted to pay me to convert it to his mainframe platform.
      Since this was back in the days prior to there being such draconian "all your inventions are belong to us" clauses, the negotiations went smoothly.

      I retained ownership.
      He got a non-transferable perpetual license to both the PC and Mainframe versions.
      I got a mainframe version using his resources.
      No money changed hands.
      Everybody happy.

      Its always worse when lawyers are involved.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    9. Re:Depends .... by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Its too easy for you to claim you had the idea after work hours."

      It's too easy to claim that an employer provided the "spark of intuition". It must have been bubbles in the watercooler, or something you heard in a meeting, or a thought you had while using the toilet at work!!

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    10. Re:Depends .... by icebike · · Score: 4, Informative

      Wrong. Copyright exists from the moment of PUBLISHING.

      See here: http://www.life123.com/career-money/business-law/copyright/when-does-copyright-protection-begin.shtml

      Works from 2002 to date.
      Any original works of authorship from 2002 to the present are automatically copyright protected from the moment of their creation. You may still register a copyright in order to establish the date of copyright protection and provide better protection against copyright infringement, but it's not necessary to register a copyright in order for a work to be protected.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    11. Re:Depends .... by Shoten · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Wrong. I called the recruiter, and he said they make no changes, no exceptions. I pointed out that they would be effectively stealing from me, as by this point the book was actually done, and just waiting to hit the printers. No flexibility.

      Your copyright exists from the time you type the words on the page. That it had not hit the street in book form yet had no bearing on the case.

      So your CURRENT employer may have had a claim against your book, but your prospective employer wouldn't.

      If you still had wanted to work for that prospective employer, you would have won any court case. But why the hell would you want to work there?

      Bringing it back around to my post to which you were applying, perhaps point 5 should have been:

        5) the invention must have been created wholly during your time of employment

      I forgot to mention in my post (above) that ALL the rules had to be met for your employer to claim the invention.

      It doesn't matter. As soon as I need to debate the point with my own employer, I lose. I lose the money I made writing the book, instead using it to pay a lawyer. I lose a lot of time and energy fighting it. I lose goodwill with the publisher for getting them caught up in it. And I lose headway in my career...because let's face it, suing your own employer is NOT the way to get ahead in business. There's being right, and there's being smart. Relying on the first isn't always being the second.

      Oh, and even more importantly...there's the fact that my future employer was being an asshole. Why on earth would I work for them?

      --

      For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
    12. Re:Depends .... by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not here. My salary is based on 4 hours per week. My employer doesn't control what I do during the other 128 hours, assuming it doesn't affect my performing on the clock in an extreme and negative way.
      Does 24/7 on the clock mean you can't enjoy a nice beer at home on a free Saturday night because that would mean you'd be drinking on the job?
      Having posed that: if your contract states that every invention you make (on or off the clock) is theirs that just means you didn't do the contract negotiations very well. Dunno if it'd hold up in court, I am not a lawyer, but I think it shouldn't.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
  3. irrelevant by shentino · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Employers have enough power to force employees to sign contracts as a condition of employment not unlike what you'd find in an EULA. No signature, no job.

    So it doesn't really matter in the long run what laws we pass unless we make it illegal for employers to ask for certain concessions.

    1. Re:irrelevant by DaMattster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Employers have enough power to force employees to sign contracts as a condition of employment not unlike what you'd find in an EULA. No signature, no job.

      So it doesn't really matter in the long run what laws we pass unless we make it illegal for employers to ask for certain concessions.

      Employers count on our fear of being unemployed to bully the prospective employee to sign away their rights.

    2. Re:irrelevant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm sure the point is the US needs to get some actual employment laws. You guys have guns for this sort of thing, right?|

    3. Re:irrelevant by Shoten · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Every single R&D employer requires employees to assign all inventions. There is no way that is negotiable. Your pay/commission/whatever for having to do so may be, but there's no way around this requirement in today's employment market.

      It's not that big a problem at all...this is simply not the truth, most of the time. I've had things in progress when I joined a company; you tell them about it, explain to them that you would like an exception to the agreement, and they (almost always...see my post above) agree to that with no muss, no fuss. It's not hard, it's not complicated, and it doesn't start a big fight. Hell, it doesn't even make you less desirable; companies want people that innovate, and if you're already doing it on your own before you even show up there, that's an awfully good sign that you'll do it for them too.

      I've been through that several times, and it's only been a hassle once...and that, from a corporation that is notorious for being a total cabal of asshats. Every other time was actually a good thing, and once it actually helped me in my salary negotiations.

      --

      For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
    4. Re:irrelevant by Belial6 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Some will. Some won't. Employers that will negotiate are like smart hot honest women. They exist. There are lots of them, and we all know some. There are not enough to go around for everyone. Heck, there are not enough jobs to go around even with people succumbing to bad employment contracts. You calling people who end up accepting crappy jobs is like calling guys idiots if they are not dating a PHD supermodel.

    5. Re:irrelevant by thePig · · Score: 5, Informative

      Very true. I always wanted to be an inventor, and have now more than a few patents. My first few patents were taken by the company where I was working during that time - even though it had absolutely nothing in common with the work I was doing for them - even the domain was completely different.

      Primarily due to this, and partly due to the fact that they did not even implement the patent and try to sell it - rather they wanted the patents to bolster their resume when they went to their clients -, I left them and decided to work for my own. Started 2 companies till now, nothing has gone anywhere - but at least my patents are mine now.

      I consider these total takeover of any work done to be a big deterrent to innovation overall. If I am coming with an idea, it should be mine and mine only. I am being paid for the work they expect me to do in the company - not thinking of ideas of my own. The companies doesnt even pay well for those patents and then complain that they are not innovative etc. I do understand that a very small percentage of patents make money, but for an inventor, it is his baby - giving pennies for it is like insulting him.

      --
      rajmohan_h@yahoo.com
    6. Re:irrelevant by Penguinisto · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Employers count on our fear of being unemployed to bully the prospective employee to sign away their rights.

      that tactic falls flat awful quick when the prospective employee is not in fear, no?

      I recall turning down prospective employers who tried that tactic on other points, and since I was already working, I politely turned them down. You would be amazed at what an employer does when you're the one who turns down their offer. Most will try to negotiate to some extent, some will move on to the next candidate, and some (rare, but) will act like a jilted prom date.

      Besides, consider it this way: if they're that willing to screw you over on minor stuff like patents before you work for them, imagine to what depths of screwing they'll plumb once you're already an employee and have no other option at the moment...

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
  4. the whole concept of property by alienzed · · Score: 5, Interesting

    will be our undoing. The reality is that we're sharing everything.

    --
    Never say never. Ah!! I did it again!
  5. The copyright 'work for hire' doctrine is unfair by mysidia · · Score: 4, Interesting

    More should be borrowed from the patent doctrine.

    Now, if you create a work specifically commissioned by your employer, the employer should own the right to use your creation, but not to make a product out of it, and resell it, unless you were hired and have in writing communication that the work was specifically for that purpose

    E.g. if you are hired to write custom software for an organization, by default that work should belong to you. If on the other hand, you were hired to build a custom software product, then by default, the work on that specific product, that you submit for that product, should belong to your hirer, as part of the understanding that you are doing product development work for them (versus just work for the benefit of their infrastructure).

    Development of a product (giving ownership of your creative work for purposes of resale) should come with expectations of greater compensation, because you are handing over not just your hours of work -- but an opportunity to profit as well, from the resale of the work.

    Whereas, development of software to meet an internal process, should come with an expectation that it is taylored to the needs of your employer's specific business, and you both retain rights to that.

  6. Depends on how much of your life they buy by KC1P · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Your employer absolutely should be entitled to any IP you produce ... *if* they're paying you for 168/hours a week. If it's only 40 hours/week then there has to be room for you to do your thing on the time that belongs to you. I hate it (and refuse to sign -- cost me a great job once) when they try to just stick a catchall into your employee contract. Contracts are supposed to be quid pro quo deals, not quid pro nothing.

  7. Copyright law is what has it wrong by Omnifarious · · Score: 5, Interesting

    IMHO, the major problems in IP law come from corporate ownership. It shouldn't be possible for corporations to own copyrights or patents, they should only be able to be granted strictly limited rights by the individuals who do own the IP.

    1. Re:Copyright law is what has it wrong by chrismcb · · Score: 3, Interesting

      How does this solve anything? What is wrong with corporate ownership of patents and copyrights? Can a corporation own anything? When 1,000 people work on something, who owns it? All 1000
      Your solution solves no problems, but introduces plenty.

  8. Re:Isn't it simple? by Deadstick · · Score: 3, Insightful

    IANAL, but you'd bloody well better talk to yours before you try to invoke that principle.

  9. Killing innovation by Steve1952 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    One of the reason why California has so many startups is that California State law clearly states that work done by an employee for the employee's own time and business interests belongs to the employee. It is very clear that the author of this article has no experience with startups.

    If the default "inventions belong to the employer" rule was in effect everywhere, then the net effect would be to lock up employee ideas with little actual benefit to the employer. This is because most big companies are not very innovative, and thus fail to exploit most employee inventions. Most of the modern world as we know it would never have happened.

    Dangerous and bad idea. I hope that the article remains forever ignored after this.

  10. Re:Of course by Mashiki · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Otherwise, how would Edison have invented so many things?

    That's easy, by being a patent clerk and being the worlds first patent troll.

    --
    Om, nomnomnom...
  11. inventions for the inventors by slick7 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I am sure that Nikola Tesla, Philo Farnsworth, Stanley Meyer would have other ideas. If employers are so smart, then they would not need employees. There are way too many thieves, liars, and greedy people who do very little to earn complete and total control of someone's invention. The mere fact that money is offered, with strings attached, to fund an invention is not enough for complete ownership. If an invention succeeds, the inventor should have no less than 55% of controlling interest. If it should fail, an inventor should not have more than 55% of the financial burden when there are investors staking their money. In any gamble there are risks on both sides.
    How many inventions are/ were shelved because it would upset the financial status quo of the greedy. Pure genius is not bought, traded nor stolen. It is a god given gift. Most inventors would like to live modestly while giving to humanity. Those entrepreneurs who live in the obscenity of avarice eventually get what they deserve.
    It's been over 100 years and still the truth of Tesla's inventions is protected by "national security", why? The powers that were are holding tight to these truths and yet, they are still coming into the light of day.
    This government had the big three auto manufacturers over a barrel. They could have been told to put on the road, an automobile seating four adults in safety and comfort, with sufficient power, and getting over 80 miles per gallon, at a reasonable price or get out of the business. What did these CONgressMen do? They threw taxpayer money at the big three for bonuses while the taxpayers lost their jobs, pensions, homes and futures. And then these asshats wonder why the American people are pissed at them, hmmm.

    --
    The mind conceives, the body achieves, the spirit manifests.
  12. Simple answer by Grayhand · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If they provide the resources for the development yes, otherwise no. The point is I remember the contract I signed while I worked at Disney. Everyone from the janitors up signed it and basically anything you created while you worked for them they owned. Translated if you were sweeping floors and happened to cure cancer they owned it. More realistically if you were hired as an office worker and happened to write a successful novel they owned the rights. The amazing thing is I talked to a lot of people there and they had no idea they signed that agreement. Most found out when they got that call from Disney legal pointing out what they had signed. Now say you are working in their robotics lab and come up with a new software or hardware design using their facilities then it's reasonable since they made the investment in the facilities and paid you for your time. It's blanket agreements that should be banned.