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Darling: Run Apple OS X Binaries On Linux
An anonymous reader writes "After having Wine to run Windows binaries on Linux, there is now the Darling Project that allows users to run unmodified Apple OS X binaries on Linux. The project builds upon GNUstep and has built the various frameworks/libraries to be binary compatible with OSX/Darwin. The project is still being worked on as part of an academic thesis but is already running basic OS X programs."
no? damn
Nothing to wine about here!
... Apple finds a loophole and sues this developer into oblivion?
They're there in their room. You're on your own.
... will I finally be able to cut & paste across applications? *ducks*
Seriously though, if this is going anywhere near wine, we'd have the best of three worlds on one platform.
There are fewer illiterates than people who can't read.
Given that iOS began as a stripped-down fork of Mac OS X, Darling could mean eventually running the entire contents of Cydia on Android devices in addition to the jailbroken iTrinkets that it currently runs on.
I have been waiting for something like this. Great to see someone started it!
will I finally be able to cut & paste across applications? *ducks*
If you're referring to some imagined deficiency of the GNU/Linux operating environment, then explain how I just copied and pasted your comment from Firefox to Leafpad, composed the reply in Leafpad, and copied and pasted it back to Firefox, all on Xubuntu 12.04. Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V work just as easily to move text around between applications in GNU/Linux as in Windows.
Seriously though, if this is going anywhere near wine, we'd have the best of three worlds on one platform.
Cue Apple's lawyers scrambling to find a way around the ruling of API uncopyrightability in Oracle v. Google.
Instead of thinking. "Wow, this is cool.." I thought, "Apple is going to sue the developer into the poor house..."
How much did you pay for a copy of Windows to run in VMware? I seem to remember that VMware for Mac required the full-price retail version of Windows, not the discounted OEM version that a system builder bundles with a Windows PC. This appears to have changed as of Windows 8 with the new Personal Use License for System Builder, but then one has to suffer through the new metrosexual Start screen of Windows 8 and the convoluted gestures to even shut down the machine. Or what am I missing?
How about a Darwin Award for running it on Linux? What can go wrong, other than OSX virii can now run on Linux like win32 virii can run on Linux? Surely, Microsoft WINDOWS and Aplle OSX are nowhere near the disease vector potential as Linux presently is! Linux runs everything now!
For one thing, -ii is plural of -ius, and nothing else. For another, Linux can already run NES viruses inside FCEUX. (See Dr. Mario and NES Virus Cleaner.)
Apple will most likely exploit their software patents to shut this down. Any attempt to host, support, or otherwise monetize this package should take place beyond our shores.
Darling could mean eventually running the entire contents of Cydia on Android
The days of iExclusivity have long passed, anything of value is already on both platforms, or that Android passed iOS both in number of Apps and Downloads in October [700,000 ans 25,000,000,000 respectively]. Although I believe that iOS should have always allowed 3rd party stores, and people should be allowed to move cross-platform programs...between platforms. I do think this unnecessary lock-in needs to be stopped.
Although me personally I have more interest in running my Android Apps on my touch-screen Linux Desktop.
Is there anything worth running?
Well the Xcode development environment is Mac OS X specific and unlikely to be ported to any other platform.
The amount of effort put into WINE has been quite large. Popular, binary API, single platform programs might have been an acceptable tradeoff in the era of a thousand dollars for the CPU and RAM, but today, a 1 ghz P3, 256 MB RAM equivalent costs under 30 dollars. Unless a program written today is high performance, it should not be using nonportable binary APIs.
This is nifty in all, but all their example application is doing is literally the graphical equivalent of "hello world".
GNUStep still only implements maybe 30% of the Apple APIs out there. And they still don't do them 100% the same way- see NSDecimalNumber for reference (Apple has a really stupid whacked way of doing it, GNUStep's implementation is slightly more sane- but they still shouldn't be straying from what Apple does if they want a compatible API in the end). Things like Core Animation, Core Graphics, Core Image, etc... Forget about it. The GNUStep guys have barely even bothered to look at that stuff, let alone implementing it.
Sadly, there is a lot more to a modern day Macintosh application then your standard NS/CF classes (even though Core Foundation is kinda opensource). You're not going to see Tweetbot or Cornerstone or Coda 2 running on anything other then OS X for a very, very long time. iOS might be a bit different since the majority of UIKit is very well understood (and there are various other APIs out there designed to re-implement it), so basic iOS applications could probably run with little effort- but for anything using APIs outside of UIKit (again, Core Animation, Core Graphics, Core Audio, Core MIDI, so on and so forth)- nobody has really spent any time on understanding how those work and re-implementing them elsewhere, and a lot of apps hook into this stuff to give you the nifty iOS experience that other handhelds can't.
In other words, the biggest barrier to this project isn't running OS X binaries on Linux. That's easy. It's implementing the other 70% of the stuff that nobody has even remotely begun to poke at. The OS X API library is vast and expansive, and GNUStep has done a good job replicating what we had on NeXTSTEP in the 1990s- but they've got absolutely none of the modern OS X stuff.
Can it run iworks?
I'm thinking it's more like people with 10 year old honda civics complaining about wall the yuppies with their BMW cars, but at the same time making hack kits to fit the rims,etc, from those BMW onto their cars...
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
Because as good as OS X is, it's not a particularly good server platform and requires Mac hardware, while Linux has been around for ages, runs on commodity hardware, has a very well supported number of open source packages and is considered mainstream by most Unix admins.
As a server platform, OS X suffers from the same problem as Solaris. You need the vendor supplied hardware to get it to run well. Solaris is a dying OS because Sun and Oracle supplied hardware is too expensive and just isn't worth it when you can get three times the computing power for less money, and X86 Solaris is frankly crap, since it has such a small hardware compatibility list.
I don't mention BSD since it's not really mainstream any longer. It's a good OS, but lacks overall vendor support.
All that being said, I prefer OS X systems for my workstation and CentOS or Scientific Linux for servers. Redhat's nice, but overpriced when you need to deploy a lot of systems.
Don't anthropomorphize computers, they don't like it.
As a former Linux user and current Mac user with concerns over Apple's direction, this is the most exciting Linux news I've heard in a while. I realise it's probably a ways off, but if I could run eg. Reason on Ubuntu and there was a nice *step style WM (with a real maximize button!) I could be sold :)
Do you see what I did there?
I guess if we can run Mail.app the issue of crappy email clients on Linux is solved.
Actually GNUSTEP as a project works like that: FOSDEM - New Work done - SILENCE - FOSDEM - New Work Done - ...
And everyone thinks: Well, why don't they go after Mac OS X emulation as a "vision" because otherwise the project lacks a good mission that inspires new contributions. Actually I thought it for the past 10 years but it always interesting to see how they start off after the annual FOSDEM meeting.
Oh joy. Now I'll be running three versions of Steam: All Linux games on the Linux client for to encourage support for FOSS platforms, the Mac client for generic multi-platform solidarity, and the Windows client for the rest of it.
In any case, I opened the first PDF that I found in ~/Downloads, copied a paragraph, and successfully pasted it into Leafpad. So copying from Evince to Leafpad worked. Then I did wine notepad.exe and pasted the same paragraph from Evince into Wine Notepad. To finish proving the point, I even typed this very sentence into Wine Notepad and copied and pasted it into Firefox. So if they managed to get the clipboard working between GTK+ and Wine, I don't see the big obstacle to getting it working between GTK+ and Darling.
OS X is a capable OS, but best used as a workstation at best. Deploying large numbers of OS X servers is greatly complicated by the fact that even Apple acknowledges that there's no market for their server grade systems and they've stopped selling them. Even if I put a Mac Pro into production, they'd be so expensive and occupy so much room that they'd fill the data center. If I stick a Mac Pro sideways in a rack, it takes 4 or 5U at least for 12 cores. I can put 4 dual hex or octo core Xeon rack mount servers in the same space or even some dual 16 core opteron servers. If I choose to use blades, I can put 16 HP 460c blades in 10U.
Don't even mention the Mac Mini as a viable server platform, it's an underpowered joke of a system if you want to do real work on it for sustained periods of time. They're not intended for, nor will they stand up to the kind of loads you see in the enterprise.
I work in the IT industry running computational clusters and lots of other kinds of servers. My rock is pretty large, but I'm on the top of it.
I do have a couple of OS X servers in the enterprise, but they're only there to run Open Directory to manage our Mac workstations.
your assertion that windows 7 or OS X is better than a Linux server shows how out of touch you are with enterprise computing. We have some windows 2003 and 2008 servers in production, but they're there to provide infrastructure for the windows workstations. No one tries to do anything else with them since it's far easier to deploy services on Linux.
As I mentioned, I love apples workstations and laptops but they don't make an appropriate platform for running any meaningful services in the enterprise.
Don't anthropomorphize computers, they don't like it.
and yeah, I'm well aware of CentOS' lineage. We chose it because it's essentially Red Hat, but doesn't have the hefty price tag.
Don't anthropomorphize computers, they don't like it.
Although I believe that iOS should have always allowed 3rd party stores, and people should be allowed to move cross-platform programs...between platforms.
A port of GNUstep to Android would let iOS application developers target Android with much less additional effort. It could help make a lot of currently App Store-exclusive applications into cross-platform applications.
VMWare Fusion 3 and earlier worked with OEM [Windows install] disks.
But doing this was probably as illegal as a Hackintosh. Apple v. Psystar.
On the other hand, I don't think the license specifically made any distinction that the new PC you purchased in a "bundle" with the OEM copy of Windows could NOT be a Mac?
Because Apple doesn't sell bundles of Mac hardware and Windows OS.
So you could probably buy a new Mac at a retailer like Micro Center and buy an OEM version of Windows 7 at the same time, for use with that Mac, and run it in a VM legally.
As I understand the Windows license prior to PULSB, Micro Center would have had to install Windows into Boot Camp or VirtualBox or VMware before selling the Mac. I don't know if Apple allows its authorized resellers to do that. Unfortunately, I can't really look further because after PULSB, the old "Windows Licensing for Hobbyists" page on Microsoft's site appears to be 404.
How the heck is Microsoft going to know if that OEM copy of Windows 7 you possess and loaded on your Mac was actually purchased originally with said Mac
I don't know whether Microsoft actually does this, but the Windows product key could be stored with the computer's serial number in a database that Microsoft could reserve the right to audit.
I'm not a mac person. I recognize their strengths as desktops however, and don't fault those who prefer them over windows. You won't find me suggesting anyone run an OSX or Mini as a server. Your rock however must be small indeed because BSD is certainly "mainstream", as has been discussed on /. ad nauseam. You don't *see* it in your line of work perhaps, but it's there, in the background, making everything *work*. It's in every Juniper device. Hell, the os that runs the playstation3 is part FreeBSD, as is OSX itself.
RIF. I made no such assertion. I said they make a better desktop than Linux because, well, they do. The BSDs make better servers.
A few years ago I regularly built Qt-based binaries on my Linux machine, targeting PPC OS X (10.3). It was pretty slick. I tried to set up a cross-compiling environment later under 10.4 fat binary days, but that proved too difficult, sadly. As it stands now, if I could run apple's native compiler and tools under linux, outputting nice OS X app bundles for Qt apps, that would be pretty slick.
While I understand it's possible to get Wine working on 64-bit Linux, it's my experience that it's not really supported on a pure-64 bit system... at least not on Slackbuilds.org
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
The build process on OS X is just different enough from Linux to be a real bugbear when I try to compile some obscure console-mode app (naim, for example), usually making osxports puke its guts out on the next-to-last of a hundred dependencies. It'd be pretty nice if I could just download binaries built for Linux and use them.
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
Re: windows vs Mac, I personally hate using windows as a workstation, but I have one at home for gaming. In general, it's a crufty clunky dog's breakfast of an OS that's a pain in the butt to configure and update. I've used nearly every version of DOS or Windows since the days of DOS 2.0 and Windows 2.0, so I'm familiar with its flaws and foibles. The only versions I've never used are Vista and Win 8.
MacOS used to be a crap OS. It was pretty, but didn't multitask at all and crashed far too often to trust. OS/2 was nice, but fragile and was never as popular as Windows. OS X is an awesome OS for workstations and is excellent to work with for day-to-day stuff. The only Linux I use for workstation stuff is Ubuntu. CentOS as a workstation OS is ok, but is too much of a pain to deal with for stuff like sound cards, etc.
Slashdot has a lot of different kinds of people on it. Many of them hobbyists and people who work in small *nix shops. Many are also enterprise IT types and the most popular enterprise *nix is Linux, hands down. Redhat/CentOS flavors dominate, but there are a few debian shops as well, such as Akamai.
A lot of that stuff is just holy wars, but if you look at what vendors support what OS's, You don't typically see much for BSD. Our company recently retired a BSD cluster and are in the process of decommissioning our BSD-based servers for a myriad of reasons. Juniper may use BSD in their stuff, but many more use Linux as their embedded OS.
BSD is popular with some companies and in colleges, but when you get into the real world it's either Linux or Solaris and Solaris is fading fast. Look at the job market. Linux is what most companies are looking for. I'm not dissing BSD, but I'd never recommend it for anything in the enterprise.
I used to run some SunOS (bsd-flavored) systems 'back in the day' and loved them, but when Solaris came out, pretty much everyone switched. I've used Solaris 2.5 - Solaris 10 on both SPARC and X86 and have watched it decline over the years in popularity because of hardware costs and X86 compatibility issues. Oracle has made some really dumb moves over the years regarding the stuff they purchased as part of Sun and most admins I know have given up on their stuff.
Don't anthropomorphize computers, they don't like it.
But it's not the same thing. This is running OS X binaries, without OS X.
There was a similar attemptin NetBSD almost 10 years ago. .
That prehistoric project implemented Mach-O loader, Mach system calls, and has been able to start OS X display server. It felt short actually displaying something useful, and died from lack of user interest.
A port of GNUstep to Android would let iOS application developers target Android with much less additional effort. It could help make a lot of currently App Store-exclusive applications into cross-platform applications.
...and this is backward thinking. Apple threw away market share protecting their profits, but we [by we I mean me and the ex-shareholders of Apple] are all in agreement that gravy chain is coming to an end. Apple need to step up, and support cross-platform development from the get go, otherwise they will find themselves marginalised [more] pretty quickly. I shouldn't have to reiterate...the days of iPhone exclusives are long over. You post would have maybe been relevant a year ago, but that is a long time ago.
Although this has little to do with my post, which is Apple need to open their storefront, to sell DRM free [or loose DRM] cross platform applications [and allow ease of those self same applications]...and update those of other stores. Otherwise again it will continue to marginalize itself. In fact I don't limit it to Apple because I think the freedom to move between *ecosystems* is going to become a problem, but locking myself into the loosing platform is not going to happen...and many more will follow me. I've seen how Apple treats its customers who bought its DRM ridden MP3's at 128...they have to pay a premium. I'm not into a company that has that mentality.
o BSD/MIT: do it and tell us.
o GPLv2: ask us for permission.
o GPLv3: Don't even look at it.
LOL its nice to see a random Apple shareholder [Sorry about the shareprice btw] promoting BSD its so quaint. I notice BSD nix has suffered a great deal since Apples one way take. Linux on the other hand seems to be be thriving.
Quick list of GPL2 and 3 Apps on Android http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open_source_Android_applications
even more awesome, we can now run Outlook for Mac on Linux! standard at my work, it sucks even worse and harder than outlook on windows
even Apple acknowledges that there's no market for their server grade systems and they've stopped selling them.
That's not quite correct. Apple's server and storage business was doing quite well. With the Xserve RAID, Apple was in fact the #3 storage vendor in the world when they discontinued the product.
The problem was that a line of business can be very successful, but still not successful enough to be worth Apple's investment of engineering time. If the same people who designed the Xserve can develop the next iMac instead, then Apple can't really justify delaying the consumer product.
If there were enough hardware engineers to fill these jobs, Apple might still be in the server business.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
By using one that is deliberately designed for the dumbest, lowest and laziest of human life, so that it is limiting even a monkey or a 4 year old in efficiency?
Yeah... *totally* what Linux users... the *only* actually computer-literate people touching computers want!
Why do you think we still use MUTT? Because we want to sit there and drool on a tablet with a big red button saying "magic" that "knows" what we want (in that it tells us what we're supposed to want, app-store-censorship style)?
Enjoy your one frame per second!
I believe in proper ports, using cross-platform tools. In fact with Windows is becoming just another platform. Its simply less of an issue, but to suggest Wine is slower when its often faster is really strange.
http://wiki.winehq.org/Debunking_Wine_Myths
I've given you a link to show how misinformed you are. I suggest you spend a little time getting informed
They should have named it Dine.
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77 77 77 2e 6d 65 6c 76 69 6e 73 2e 63 6f 6d
If you have OSX already, why are you messing around with linux?
Presumably at least a part of the target audience for this project is people who don't have OSX, but would like the option to run OSX programs on a free operating system.
If you have OSX already, why are you messing around with linux?
Presumably at least a part of the target audience for this project is people who don't have OSX, but would like the option to run OSX programs on a free operating system.
Where will these people get the copy of OS X files needed to run the programs?
GNUStep lets OS X application developers target Windows and X with much less additional effort. How's that working out?
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
Apple was in fact the #3 storage vendor in the world when they discontinued the product
[Citation needed]
Like WINE, Darling would provide the capability without Apple's OSX files. From the article:
Darling must provide an ABI-compatible set of libraries/frameworks as those on OS X so it can parse the executable files for the Darwin kernel, load them into memory, and execute them without needing any code recompilation or other modifications for Linux.
I could be wrong, but I suspect implementing the OSX APIs in Linux might actually be easier than trying to implement Win32. Partly this is because OSX is already a *nix-based system, so you don't have to do as many weird hacks with directory mapping and so forth. But mostly I think it may be simpler because Apple has relatively clean APIs and relentlessly deprecates legacy stuff. When you implement Win32, you have to implement literally thousands (if not millions) of hacks and special cases going back to the 1980s. This is not without justification as a design goal – backward compatibility is one of the reasons why Windows has had such staying power in business – but it's difficult for even Microsoft to get the whole edifice running smoothly, much less third parties with no access to internal design documents and source code. In contrast, when Apple switched from Carbon to Cocoa, they were pretty aggressive about deprecating the old framework.
I would think that would make it easy to run their apps/programs in Linux.
But as someone else said, is there anything to run?
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
Your rock however must be small indeed because BSD is certainly "mainstream", as has been discussed on /. ad nauseam.
I don't know how accurate the stats are, but w3techs puts FreeBSD at 1.1% of all web servers, that's roughly as mainstream as Linux is on the desktop - in other words not at all. It used to big be yes, but my impression is that Linux got corporate backing and raised the quality significantly while BSD remained a mostly amateur project. Particularly they were rather late with production grade SMP support which started a lot of migration to Linux and while a lot of web hosting companies used it in-house and small companies offered support there never formed a big professional support organization like Red Hat was for Linux. Not to mention Linus has by some small miracle managed to keep it together under one banner instead of forking into three branches with duplication of effort.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
including CoreData and CoreGraphics equivalents are in place. Until then, it's like watching a drunk athlete play against all-stars, when comparing GNUstep(off a cliff) versus OS X.
FreeBSD is hardly considered amateur, and its SMP implementation may have been a bit late but it is much better.
A port of GNUstep to Android would let iOS application developers target Android with much less additional effort.
There are already excellent tools for doing just that. You don't get much easier than Cordova or Unity. Darling seems like a fun project and could even be useful some day, but not really a practical solution to cross platform mobile development unless Google were to buy in in a really, really big way.
The storage/server people who were ditched by Apple started their own company - Active Storage. I've got 600TB of it running in my shop so far and will add another 300-600TB next year. The NASCAR video facility in Charlotte, NC has many Petabytes of it and there are lots of other takers in the video post production world. They've tuned the storage to be friendly to continuous streams of 100GB single files, applications where I've seen EMC, HDS and DDS fall over on.
To the claim of being the #3 storage vendor, I found an IDC competitive analysis from a DDN wen site. They weren't #3, more like between #6-ish and #18-ish depending on which fragment of the industry got measured, but they did win out over some surprising competition. I'm not too upset about the Xserve RAID, but the Xserve was a pretty nice box - like a giant Swiss watch compared to the sloppy assemblies of the competitors.
Most of the stuff on
If this ends up supporting Adobe Creative Suite better than Wine, then that will be a huge win as it is a very common "why I can't use Linux" excuse.
How good is Apple's documentation compared to Microsofts? This is important for a clean-room implementation.
it sucks even worse and harder than outlook on windows
Clearly you have not had Notes inflicted on you, if you had you would cling to Outlook with all your heart and count your lucky stars.
XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
OSX is Darwin (A MACH micro kernel) with a BSD user land + OpenStep + a fuckton of proprietary Apple stuff. Nothing Linux about it.
You do know that Linux is just a kernel right? Son, these days Solars has more in common with Linux than OSX does.
XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
iWork is a pretty decent office suite (although IDK if it handles ODF properly): for actual spreadsheeting, Numbers is very nice (although it isn't suitable for the kind of monstrosities that Excel can be used for), and Keynote makes Powerpoint seem horribly primitive. The downside is Pages, which is quite decent for desktop publishing (far less painful than Word for anything fancy) and pretty decent for simple authoring, but not as good for moderately-complex documents - in particular, the formatting UI is horribly inefficient without using shortcuts (which also affects Keynote, but you don't tend to want to do so much formatting in a slideshow). That said, Pages complements LaTeX fairly nicely - the thins which are irritating to do in one are usually day in the other.
Photoshop would probably be the most important program to get working, since that is often mentioned as being one of the critically-missing programs for Linux.
FaceTime would be worthwhile if you have friends with iThings, but that would probably require you to pirate it. There might also be decent software on the Mac AppStore.
including CoreData and CoreGraphics equivalents are in place. Until then, it's like watching a drunk athlete play against all-stars, when comparing GNUstep(off a cliff) versus OS X.
Sure you don't want to stick around and taunt them as they wail into the night then drink their tears as the sun rises over the desolation that their lives have become?
XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
It seems like this was a missed opportunity to name the project Mace.
Apple didn't ditch them. Alex Grossman saw that he could make a very good living filling the niche that was left when Apple got out of that line of work, and several other people went with him over the following year.
As for that IDC report, it appears to include everything from bare drives to NAS. Xserve RAID was #3 after EMC and NetApp in their product category.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
The only E-Mail program so far which actually is so slow it cannot keep up with my typing!
GPLv3 means it is not going to be distributed with a device that can't be unlocked. "Installation instructions" for a Nexus device: enable third party sources and install .apk for user space, unlock device, root, install whatever you want. That's all you need to provide.
Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
Macs make great servers. They just don't belong in a DATACENTER. Going back into the 80s till today, a Mac server is designed to handle a few dozen to a few hundred clients, such as in a school, small or medium business, etc.
Apple realized how stupid it was to go after the low-margin, high support cost datacenter market, and stopped doing it. The Xserve was an anomaly anyway, as before it the last server they made was that weird A/UX box, the Apple Workgroup Server.
If you want something to handle blogs, wiki, web server, email, and file serving for a small or medium sized organization, especially a Mac-centric one, a Mac Mini makes a great machine.
Ok, when Apple ditched their USERS, Active Storage started up. Sort of a nuance. You know Alex? Smart guy. How about Emjay? One of the coolest support techs around.
Not to appear combative, but in which category was Apple the #3 supplier? That IDC document got pretty granular and I'm having a hard time finding some math that correlates that. Like in 2007, the "Worldwide Disk Storage Systems Terabytes Shipped by Supplier" chart says Apple shipped 67,500.3 TB while HP shipped almost 20x more at 1,299,213.7 TB. Between them was EMC (834,670.6 TB), IBM (834,670.6 TB), Dell (588,671.1 TB), NetApp (488,719.2 TB), Sun (268,570.3 TB) and Hitachi (225,565.8 TB). Apple shipped less than one-third of Hitachi. The Xserve RAID was discontinued in 2008, so 2007 was probably the best year for shipments.
Maybe it's the timeframe. I sort of remember in the early days of the Xserve RAID, they sold quite a few because it was about half the price per TB of pretty much everything else.
Most of the stuff on
Clearly you have not had Notes inflicted on you, if you had you would cling to Outlook with all your heart and count your lucky stars.
Notes is much more than just mail so stop this crap talk.
Well the only thing on Mac OS X i'm really jealous about is Tower, it is quite frankly the BEST git gui application out there. It can do EVERYTHING you can do with the command line and it does have a very intuitive interface, my boss uses it on his MacBook Pro while all other developers are stuck with the usual windows crap. I would really love a way to use that, even if it is through a linux vm, btw. no i won't use a Mac VM that's just crazy talk ;)
Thanks, I needed this laugh. It was kinda sad and mildly hilarious 2 years ago when people mentioned running Apple hardware in a server room or a rack - and it was still a sold product. It was kind of like saying "Cisco servers". Today? Good lord, are you serious? :P I know you intended it to be intellectual but there is absolutely no justifying cause for doing that unless Apple is subsidizing the hardware substantially, or you're Apple itself.
As far as OS X in the enterprise, your assessment is quite correct. Keep them there for legacy purposes only: you'll be able to move to something more featureful and mature, freeing up valuable space, soon, hopefully. Thankfully, Open Directory is fairly easy to migrate to another LDAP directory, and all the remaining "server" applications left on OS X have more or less abandoned the platform. Many of them had already started lowering the life boats back in 2007-2008 when they realized that Apple didn't care about suitable disk, memory, or context switch performance for even light use server roles. A shame, really - I, for one, was hoping for another viable SMB option.
No, FreeBSD is not Linux. And it isn't even really based on FreeBSD either, it just borrows part of the userland.
I have gazillions of retro and historic computers around and having to pull one out of storage, set it up and install the program is just way too much work for all of those. Being able to run software for most of those machines on a single desk top computer or VM host, would make it a lot easier and often "worth the trouble" to actually run the software. Also, the PPC Apple will no longer have hardware support, so if I was running legacy code in a production environment, having it run on modern, supported hardware, would be a benefit. It might even be actually running faster on modern hardware, if emulation is efficient enough.
I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
I wonder - do OS-X applications work seamlessly under FreeBSD or PC-BSD? Or do they have any Quartz-specific dependencies that would prevent it? Since the underpinnings of OS-X is FreeBSD userland, shouldn't an OS-X application work seamlessly, or would there be any tweaks similar to what the above developer has done for Linux?
I don't mention BSD since it's not really mainstream any longer. It's a good OS, but lacks overall vendor support.
Indeed, last BSD release was 4.4, and it was in 1995. No vendor sells BSD anymore, and nobody use it, therefore you are perfectly right. But I do not know where you have been living for 13 years if you are not aware that BSD derived systems are everywhere today, and backed by major vendors.
just focus on getting linux apps to run on linux, wine sucks has always sucked and will continue to suck, I don't see a Mac OSX "Mace" helping me to get shit done.
Even as a workstation product, you're probably better off virtualizing MacOS. That way you can take advantage of cheap and ugly PCs that run circles around a Mac for the same price as what Apple offers.
As a server product, Apple likely suffers from the same mental block that many companies and individuals do: the idea that a server is somehow something special and something that you need to pay $1000 for the OS just to get started.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
I got mine from the Apple Store. Apple Corp used to sell such files rather freely actually. Although admittedly that approach likely won't last much longer.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
It works properly for me on Ubuntu 12.10. I can run Steam, even (Well, I'm not in the beta... and since I had HL2 anyway I went ahead and picked up the THQ bundle, for basically nothing. I gave some money to charity and to the bundlers for administration.)
It was all bad in 12.04, I couldn't install it and lsb-base at the same time
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
How do you people find Slashdot? Remember to swallow and breath...
OpenSSH is an integrated subsystem of OpenBSD, which has a market penetration of at least 95%. The OSX kernel is BSD-based, so by numbers of kernel installs BSD is probably ahead of Linux. Consider the basic strlcpy() function, which Linux recently adopted... sometimes BSD gifts come in very small packages. BSD probably dominates the IT industry just as profoundly as Linux, but not in a "monolithic" manner.
I'd settle for just fixing OpenStep on Fedora, not a complete Mac/iOS clone. OpenStep's graphics are broken on Fedora, and have been for years. Some sort of dependency hell. As expensive as Macs are, and as important as iOS development and Objective-C are right now, I'm surprised by this situation, since I would figure there would be a lot of incentive to have OpenStep working on a first-class Linux distro as a cheap alternative to learn Objective-C and Cocoa. My limited experience is that OpenStep is so far out of step with the Mac that it isn't useful as a learning platform. Even Objective-C and its class library are out of sync. I tried to write some simple code to format a date on Fedora, and port it to the Mac, but the OpenStep stuff didn't work the way the Mac did. So I figure that OpenStep is so out of date it isn't useful any longer, or demand for it would mean the Fedora version would be fixed. Compare that to, say, g++'s support for the new standard, which has outpaced Microsoft's (even with Sutter as the head of C++ at MS). Fedora is on the leading edge there.
You obviously haven't used Notes since the 90's when outlook was non-existing. The company I work for switched from Notes to a MS-solution a couple of years ago, and I hear more and more of the users wanting to go back to it! An MS based solution with Exchange and Sharepoint might be easier to set up for the sys-admins, but for users, domino is a far better choice! It just works a lot better and the systems are more integrated with each other.
This is blinging
The only thing that will protect this project from Apple is their focus on iOS.
If Apple doesn't think OSX is really their future, they probably won't care.
Now, if someone allowed iOS programs to run directly on other phones...
that means a... well, actually nothing coming from an AC.
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
I appreciate that you were probably trying to be helpful, but I did specifically mention that it was unsupported as a slackbuild. Ubuntu is not Slackware. Slackware64 out of the box is a pure 64 bit system that does not support 32 bit binaries without installing additional software (multilib) that, while readily available and quite commonly used, has not ever been officially supported by the slackware distribution, or by slackbuilds.org. It is my understanding that this is a deliberate choice because it is not unheard of for some applications to fail to build correctly on a system which supports both 32bit and 64bit binaries because the build file is set up in such a way that the linker may try to link the wrong libraries when both are present. Editing the build file will usually correct this, but because not all projects which are supported by slackbulds.org have had their build files manually adjusted to account for the possibility of a dual 32-bit/64-bit system. A user thus enables running 32-bit binaries on 64-bit Slackware entirely at their own risk, and must potentially hand-edit other people's build files to build applications to run on it.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
I've been doing IT and development in the "real world" for ~20 years, and you are absolutely wrong. There is a lot of Windows infrastructure out there. Nothing competes with AD/Exchange/Sharepoint in corporate environments. Nothing. There's a ton of BSD as well. .Net is far more prevalent then you seem to have any clue about.
The only reason for that can be that you don't know what you're doing / talking about.
Yes, but so what? It's not as though 99% of sites aren't also useless wordpress blogs and other "small fry" VPS solutions. % of websites means nothing. Why not look at % of traffic served, or % of money handled.
It's laughable to say Net/Free/Open are forks while Ubuntu/Debian/Redhat/CentOS/Gentoo/etc/etc/etc/etc are not. The BSDs all share a great deal of their code with one another.
The parts of Notes that are not email are pointless in the 21st century.
XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
You're either an excellent troll, or a poor unfortunate about to be dog piled by a lot of nerd rage. (Apologies if you're the latter, bravo if the former.) ;)
and they're number what now? :)
Don't anthropomorphize computers, they don't like it.
The Mac Mini's more of a home/small company server, IMHO.
We have a couple of XServes in production that we saved from the scrap heap and have another 4 in reserve in case the production ones crap out. They're nice systems, but don't talk to SATA II or III drives and need to be jumpered down to 1.5GB.
When the XServes die or aren't supported by whatever OS we need, then we'll have to reassess things.
Don't anthropomorphize computers, they don't like it.
OSX is Darwin (A MACH micro kernel with a BSD user land) + OpenStep + a fuckton of pr
Most of the weight of a typical full install has always been printer drivers. But when users think of Mac OS X, a lot of times they're really only thinking of Quartz, and the applications that are used with it. That there is a framework built upon a platform that allows it all is conceptually skipped... and it amounts to a surprisingly small amount of the whole installation.
Yes, Darwin does use a MACH kernel. But the MACH kernel itself is also derived from BSD, originally developed as additional code written directly into the 4.2BSD kernel.
http://astutehosting.com/
Still there were options other than "have their own hardware engineers designing server hardware" and "screw over anyone trying to run their server software in a datacenter environment". Rebadging hardware from a major server vendor being one, selling (expensive) licenses to run it in virtualisation on non-apple hardware being another.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
Yes, Darwin does use a MACH kernel. But the MACH kernel itself is also derived from BSD, originally developed as additional code written directly into the 4.2BSD kernel.
If you actually look at the code, or even just at system calls, it is obvious Mach has nothing to do with a Unix kernel. Where did you read it was BSD derived?
Now what is wrong with Evolution or Thunderbird?
I personally prefer Evolution, and yes, I know there are some memory leaks... The program itsself works beautifully though, and is fast after all!
Just another data point: http://news.slashdot.org/story/12/12/09/1726222/freebsd-project-falls-short-of-year-end-funding-target-by-nearly-50
Don't anthropomorphize computers, they don't like it.
and if the company you work for requires your phone to not be rooted in order to VPN / get email / calendaring / etc., and is actively enforced by the MDM solution?
Yeah.
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
A couple comments:
Mac Mini server is fantastic for small "appliance" tasks, like a Software Update server for a remote site, or a distribution point for a software deployment system so you don't routinely kick the crap out of your WAN to install large software packages. No, you're not going to run massive databases on it, but it can still be quite useful in the configure-and-drop-ship scenario.
Open Directory? Really? I thought you said you worked for an enterprise IT organization. Even Apple doesn't use Open Directory internally - they use Active Directory, just like the rest of the planet. If your particular setup of Active Directory isn't friendly with Apple's LDAPv3 AD makeover, you can use Centrify DirectControl or Quest Software's QAS client for Mac OS X. There's probably others, but those are the top two in any enterprise study that's worth reading. In fact, they allow you to move your policy into AD GPOs as well without schema extension. Sure, they cost money, but what does keeping Open Directory servers cost in power, parts, and labor to maintain?
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
At one point, Outlook on the Mac was written by the Exchange team at Microsoft, and it had feature parity with Outlook for Windows, including using a MAPI protocol.
Then the Mac shop at Microsoft was formed and started doing Office for Mac, and completely scrapped the good* Outlook in favor of this abomination of a binary UI for Outlook Web Access, which is what Mac Outlook is.
Might as well just use OWA - it's the same damn thing, but with less configuration bullshit.
*all values of "good" are intended in a relativistic sense - saying "the good Outlook" is in comparison to the shit-tastic Outlook 2011 that is the "current" product available.
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
the days of iPhone exclusives are long over.
Correct. Nowadays, an app will be ported to iPod touch, iPhone, and iPad. Tiny Wings is not for Android.
I've seen how Apple treats its customers who bought its DRM ridden MP3's at 128...they have to pay a premium.
No, that's how the major record labels treat their customers.
since I bought a copy of windows
Just because you bought a copy of a work doesn't mean you bought access to the work embodied in the copy. You waived rights in exchange for the privilege to decrypt the install package.
Licenses only apply to rentals or signed contracts.
You accepted the contract when you swiped your credit card and signed the signature pad.
the best of three worlds
I think he might've been talking about running Linux on VMWare Fusion.
And these three worlds would be 1. Mac OS X, 2. Linux on VMware Fusion, and 3. what else? One could run Wine in Linux on VMware Fusion, but why do that when Wine runs directly in Mac OS X?
If you are using Macs as workstations you are probably running Logic or Final Cut Pro or other Mac-only software packages on them. Since no virtualization software even has working 3D support on OS X, let alone proper audio drivers, virtualization is a retarded idea.
Aside from this, it is unlikely that you can spec out a high end workstation for much cheaper than the Mac Pro anyway, even if it is home built.
Nice troll though.
If your company requires your phone to not be rooted you can't install any code that requires rooting. This doesn't affect GPLv3 anything, it can even still be shipped with GPLv3 code as long as it's user space/the device can be rooted by the owner (be it you, or your company), even if you opt not to do it.
GPLv3 requires that any GPLv3 code shipped on the device needs to be able to be replaced by modified versions, it doesn't require the device to be in a state ready to accept such modifications without additional intervention.
Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
Are you telling me that none of the millions of iPad owners wishes he had a tool for experimenting with app development directly on the device, no Mac required? Very few I'll grant, but nobody?
I'm just saying that any easy procedure that has a step which involves rooting or jailbreaking the device isn't going to work for everyone. It's fine for some people, but it's not realistic if you have a device given to you by your employer, or want to interact with your employer's systems, if your employer has enterprise security standards which forbid rooting or jailbreaking.
These policies and MDM profiles that enforce it are going to become commonplace, if they aren't already.
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
that means a... well, actually nothing coming from an AC.
It's unfortunate that you don't already feel the appropriate amount of shame. A simple Google search could have helped to prevent you from talking out of your ass about things you don't understand.
Finally, the Mac's famed selection of applications combined with the incredible ease-of-use for which Linux is renowned.