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Professor Cliff Lampe Talks About Gamification in Academia (Video)

Professor Lampe is using gamification in his 200-student lecture classes to make them more interesting. He says big-class lectures can often be as boring for the professor as they are for the students. A little bit of game-type action can spice things up and make classes more interesting. Near the end of the video he points out that gamification is becoming popular for employee training in private enterprise, so why not use the concept in universities and other educational institutions?

32 of 123 comments (clear)

  1. I've always hated gamification by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Is it just me, or is gamification incredibly condescending?

    1. Re:I've always hated gamification by Trepidity · · Score: 3, Funny

      On the contrary, comrade, gamification is scientifically correct, as proven by Lenin and Stalin themselves! With its spirit roused by brotherly competition, there is no end to what the proletariat may joyfully achieve in its struggle to build socialism!

    2. Re:I've always hated gamification by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not just you. From The Simpsons season 3:

      Principle Skinner: Oh, licking envelopes can be fun! All you have to do is make a game of it.
      Bart: What kind of game?
      Principle Skinner: Well, for example, you could see how many you could lick in an hour, then try to break that record.
      Bart: Sounds like a pretty crappy game to me.
      Principle Skinner: Yes, well... Get started.

      If the Simpsons were making fun of your idea 20 years ago, you might not want to build a career on it.

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    3. Re:I've always hated gamification by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 2

      Its just you.

      Anything that can improve education is a good thing. If the lecture is boring and without any interaction then the students wont remember any of it.

      But does it improve education? Any "next big thing" gets good results from a few dedicated teachers, but their results fail to be replicable for other teachers. This happens again and again and again. I can't find the link, but there was an article posted to /. earlier in the year about a former champion of social networking in the classroom that had stopped preaching it because it worked for him, but not for other people. He came to the same conclusion as most people eventually do: a good teacher is a good teacher, but we don't know and can't define what makes them one.

      As for gamification specifically, I remember reading an article (on Gamasutra, I think) back when the word was still so new that most people hadn't heard of it. It was about a study into why people enjoy games, and the results of brain scans showed that the enjoyment was triggered by those areas of the brain involved in learning..

      One developer noted that he wasn't surprised by the results. When asked if this was justification for the gamification of education he was strongly against it. Why?

      Think about it: games are fun because you're learning. The leads us to the conclusion from that any course that isn't fun is just badly taught. But "gamification" ignores this conclusion and instead focuses on "achievement addiction" -- something which is independent from the actual quality of learning. Gamification is a distraction from good teaching.

      And besides, isn't the biggest criticism of modern education that it's too exam focused? What are achievements if not more exams, marks, grades....

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  2. Resource for teachers interested in Gamification by Zrako · · Score: 2

    As a future teacher I'm already working on a gamification system for my future classroom. I was inspired after watching this awesome edition of Extra Credits on PATV http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/gamifying-education which is definitely worth watching.

  3. Why not use gamification? by SirGarlon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    why not use the concept in universities and other educational institutions?

    Because flunking people who don't care about learning is preferable to pandering to them?

    --
    [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    1. Re:Why not use gamification? by Missing.Matter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes this. This time a thousand. This gamification concept is completely asinine. If you are going to a university but you can't be bothered enough to pay attention and actually engage yourself in your own education, even if the material is dull, then just save us all a lot of trouble and stay home. No one is forcing you to go to college.

      And to think of the complete arrogance, that you have this amazing opportunity, a once in a lifetime chance to educate yourself about the world, a chance that people around the world would kill to have, to be in your shoes, and you can't bring yourself to pay attention at a lecture because it's not WoW enough for you? If this is you, drop out immediately, and make room for someone who actually wants an education. Sickening.

    2. Re:Why not use gamification? by omnichad · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm not sure if I agree. Part of a topic being engaging or not is having it be presented in a way that shows its importance. My favorite class in high school was a history class where the teacher used role-playing to show just why certain decisions were made. Even if it was done for the wrong reasons I think it could still have a positive effect. Even as someone who would pay attention anyway, having an entire class engaged presents far more perspectives than being the only interested student.

    3. Re:Why not use gamification? by Sepodati · · Score: 2

      So... if we all can't learn the same way that you do, we're wrong?

    4. Re:Why not use gamification? by Pentium100 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Except that some parts of this are because of human psychology. I remember one professor saying that you need to lecture no more than 15 minutes at a time, then tell a joke or something otherwise everyone will fall asleep (or just will not learn anything, even though they tried to pay attention to what is being said). Yes, sometimes, the topic is so interesting you can listen for the 1.5 hours, but most of the time you will forget 99% of what was said after the first 15-30 minutes.

      As for

      If you are going to a university but you can't be bothered enough to pay attention and actually engage yourself in your own education, even if the material is dull, then just save us all a lot of trouble and stay home.

      this can be used to justify not having any lectures at all. Anyone sufficiently motivated should just read the relevant books and learn, the professors just needs to give the list of the books to read and then grade the exam/papers.

      Why are you opposed to things that make life easier? I mean if gamifying education leads to better educated people, why not do it? If using a wheelbarrow makes it easier/faster to transport snow/dirt/etc short distances, why not use it?

    5. Re:Why not use gamification? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not to defend gamification, but I think you overly-simplified the issue of engagement in the classroom by making it a student-issue. Even for the most engrossing subjects, if you have a poor teacher it is not unreasonable to expect even exceptional students to become disengaged. I for one love math and statistics, but when had a 1/10 online rated professor teach the subject, I never paid any attention in class whatsoever, opting instead to teach myself afterwards directly from the book. Had the teacher been open to supplemental tools to improve his ability to relay information in new and different ways that made learning a more engaging topic, then I just might have stayed awake during his class and not read the book in a quiet library afterwards.

      While I am not suggesting that gamification be the answer for all teachers everywhere, and it certain contexts it can be almost condescending in implementation, using gamification as a supplemental tool in a teachers arsenal can greatly improve classroom engagement. Not everyone who doesn't pay attention is an arrogant lazy bum.

    6. Re:Why not use gamification? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why are you opposed to things that make life easier? I mean if gamifying education leads to better educated people, why not do it? If using a wheelbarrow makes it easier/faster to transport snow/dirt/etc short distances, why not use it?

      I've been thinking about this sort of question in the bigger picture. What set me down the path was the political observation that as a party republicans are anti-gay except for individuals like Cheney who have a gay child, the party is also pro-torture except for individuals who have actually been tortured like McCain. So I've been trying to figure out if there is a rule that explains such things instead of just trying to score political points.

      What I've come up with is this: People like to create their own "personal" rules for how members of society should behave - generally these rules are simple, even natural, to follow for the person who makes them up. Gay marriage is an easy one - straight people have no interest in getting gay married. It is a rule that is natural for them to follow so they have little understanding of what it is like to be on the other side of that rule. A more trivial example came from the husband of a good friend of mine - he forbid their pre-teen daughter from chewing gum. Not for any health reasons, simply because he thought people who chewed gum looked stupid. Of course he didn't like to chew gum himself so he saw no value in it and came up with this rule that didn't cost him anything.

      I see the same thing here - chances are the OP is someone for whom traditional educational methods worked pretty well. That makes it easy for him to endorse the current system - it worked for him, it should work for anyone. Anyone for whom it doesn't work must be defective, lazy, wants something for nothing, etc.

      Looking back over my life, I can see how I've made up a bunch of similar rules about both trivial and important things. Those rules haven't really helped me, they just gave me a reason to look down on other people who didn't deserve it. In some cases even to dismiss their humanity. In the long run all it did was make me miss opportunities that were right in front of me. So now I try to question my own assumptions about how people should act, and when they aren't directly hurting anyone I make a conscious effort to accept them rather than disparage them.

      --
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    7. Re:Why not use gamification? by pthisis · · Score: 2

      You're right ... every lecture should be delivered in the most droll monotone available. We need to get a hundred Ben Stein clones up in our colleges and universities.

      I think you have that backwards. Gamification is an attempt to make lectures and learning more droll*, an adjective that the post you were responding too seemed against. And monotones are rarely droll, though Ben Stein's is a notable exception. Having someone as smart and funny as he is up there teaching seems like a pretty good approach.

      * Droll: having a humorous, whimsical, or odd quality .

      --
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    8. Re:Why not use gamification? by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 2

      Not to defend gamification, but I think you overly-simplified the issue of engagement in the classroom by making it a student-issue. Even for the most engrossing subjects, if you have a poor teacher it is not unreasonable to expect even exceptional students to become disengaged.

      While I don't agree with you about gamification (I'm in the "assinine" camp and I've explained my reasons elsewhere in this thread), you're bang on here.

      I've studied as an undergrad in 3 different universities, taking courses from 8 different departments in total. My first university is recognised as one of the best in the world -- Edinburgh. And I can tell you, the difference wasn't just down to the students (although I'm sure it helped that they could cream off the best and brightest). No, the place is an excellent university. The teaching was top class. The classes were academically rigorous and the tutorials built on each other progressively to ensure that any student that attended and remained attentive would have the required knowledge to pass the assessed tasks issued at the end of the unit.

      The other two... not so much. The biggest difference was the tutorials. There was no offer or opportunity to have a tutor assess and monitor your work during the unit. You were thrown into the end-of-unit assignment with unconfirmed assumptions about the task. A large part of your mark was blind luck -- did I understand the teacher's intended task? And worse: once you got that bad mark back, you weren't expected to do anything with it -- you weren't going to be assessed again, so there was no motivation to go back and actually learn from it.

      In both those universities, I complained that they weren't providing motivation to learn -- in both cases they said that this wasn't their job; they provide the opportunities, not the motivation, and the motivation has to come from the student.

      I pointed out the differences between these universities and Edinburgh. The response? Edinburgh can do that because they're one of the best universities in the world. No; Edinburgh is one of the best universities in the world because they do this.

      We already have models of good teaching in academia -- why faff around with unproven fads when we have methods that have been tried, tested and proven effective over generations that we could implement instead?

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  4. Popular vs. Effective by rsborg · · Score: 2

    Has there been any efficacy studies with respect to the workplace gamification of employee training? Not just efficacy in the employee being "trained" with the content, but actual outcomes based on the employee absorption of the training? I know that in some workplaces where I've been, being given time for training is considered a "perk" and the lower-performing (and perversely the ultra-effective) folks don't to go.

    The real issue is that unlike a game, your status is a pale reflection of reality - many people in real life are very "stats oriented" while others view measurement of stats about their progress as limiting and depressing, and not reflective of their true worth (to the organization, as a person, etc). At one point, I vacillate between one extreme and another.

    "I am not a number... I am a free man" sayeth the Prisoner.

    Perhaps we should integrate this training into project and management methodologies such that training really reflects what you've actually done, and then try to "improve" absorption of the training by gamification.

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  5. Fun by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's no longer fun once someone forces you to do it. Then it just becomes insulting. Doubly so if you already know what they're trying to convey and will be penalized for poor performance at the game despite mastery of the material.

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    1. Re:Fun by Trepidity · · Score: 2

      Look, Hatta, we've already been over this: the pieces of flair aren't mandatory. They're self-expression. You want to express yourself, don't you?

  6. Boring? by Missing.Matter · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Honestly, if I'm paying $500 - $1000 *per lecture*, I'm going to sit and pay attention no matter how boring the material or the professor is. I realize that some professors or subjects are dull beyond comprehension, but you're actually *paying* to be there so sit up and listen. Get a good night's rest, read the material before coming to class, engage yourself in the discussion (or if there is no discussion, engage yourself in an internal discussion with questions).... no need to dress up like cartoon characters to make the class interesting like we're teaching 3rd graders with uncontrollable ADD. This is college. These are (ostensibly) adults. Give me a break.

    1. Re:Boring? by Mephistophocles · · Score: 2

      +100.

      I'm as geeky as anyone here, trust me - but this crap is just wasting time, and not something I'm going to spend $80K+ for. If I'm paying for a college degree, I don't want some stupid kindergarten dress-up class.

      And BTW, if you are really so undisciplined and trite as to need to be entertained at every turn, you don't need to be enrolled in a higher learning institution. Assembly line, etc ought to suit you just fine.

      --
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  7. Irritating audio by RCC42 · · Score: 2

    Okay two main problems with the audio:

    The interviewer breathes loudly into the microphone while the interviewee is talking. It's kind of gross.

    Secondly, when the two different scenes are mixed together (interview and in-class video) the speaking in one distracts from the other.

  8. Re:Resource for teachers interested in Gamificatio by fermion · · Score: 2
    There are certain steps in which games are very useful in education. However, most of the time, assessment is the key. That is, how are you going to continually assess students to make sure the class is learning, and not just following patterns or playing a game. Then are they going to be able to transfer the knowledge to a summative assessment, genuine or question and answers, to show that learning that has gone on. Finally, in most cases some standard test is going to have to completed. Perhaps it is a school test, or the SAT, or the GRE, or something else.

    I mention this because it is often very effective to teach with games, and the students will be very engaged, but at least in the US we are still very focused on testable outcomes that can be efficiently graded. Therefore we have to build certain skills beyond the content into students. Such as reading and answering the question you are asked. Understanding that not every level, or question, needs to be completed. That there are are rules and processes, but sometimes a question can be asking to you modify those proceses to achieve an efficient product.

    Also, there is a big problem in the classroom of looking like tea ching is going, not only for outside observers but also to the students. The students have to be focused on the learning. We have a bunch of games, computer simulations, online assistants that make learning much easier and fun that it used to be. However, either because the students are not focused on the details or because the teachers does not connect the games to the content, learning does not go on. This is a big, and rational, criticism of this teaching process and it is something that must be a focus if one is going to use this process.

    A large part of learning has always occurred outside the classroom and what we call 'advanced students' often are able to learn despite what happens in the classroom. What makes a good teacher is the ability to connect with 66% of the population that makes up the average student. Games will be one way to do this, but is not going to make a bad teacher good, or alone save an average student.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  9. It's about effective teaching by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Compare a course where you would retain 30% of the content with a course where you would retain 70% of the same content: which would you choose?

    Everyone whining about "pandering to the unmotivated" is missing the point: the current class/lecture model started over a thousand years ago and is not optimized for learning. In this century we now know much more about the neurological underpinnings of how people learn, so it makes sense that we should try to optimize the process.

    College (or an online course, or work-related training) should be as effective as possible. Some lecturers have this figured out, but most don't.

    Stanford is considered a hard school not because the material is difficult, but because it's presented in a way that's hard to learn. Only the brightest and most motivated students can thrive in that situation, which helps to build the "best and brightest" reputation. The reputation comes not from quality of education, but difficulty of education.

    (Check out the online videos for Probabilistic Graphical Models by Dr. Daphne Koller at Stanford. Alternately, check out her book on the subject. The book is largely unreadable, and the videos are dreadfully obtuse. Her class at Stanford is well known as a weeder.)

    One great aspect of the ongoing MOOC revolution is that everyone is competing on an open field. Instructors using more effective techniques will be perceived as better teachers while the "old-school, cannot change, it's always worked for me" crowd will be left in the dust.

    Gamification is a technique for more effective teaching.

    1. Re:It's about effective teaching by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sorry, but I have to disagree with this. As someone who attends a liberal arts college, I hear all the time about how awesome it is that we have good instructors who present the material clearly and unpretentiously.

      The truth of the matter is that my courses cover significantly less material that the courses taken by my friends at Stanford and MIT. It's no wonder that our instruction is "better" -- our instructors are spending the same amount of time on roughly half the content!

      Furthermore, this approach tends toward a very "applied" style in which "jargon" is avoided in favor of ideas. Practically, this often means that the more difficult problem sets are abandoned (it's all just jargon and escalation, right?) in favor of the easier problem sets. You may retain more information when this approach is used, but -- from personal experience -- you don't learn how to think more clearly and deeply (or even more quickly.) A more practical implication is that I don't understand conversations between people in my field (industry people OR researchers) because while I "understand" the "ideas", I don't have the necessary language to know what's being discussed.

      Now, I use MIT's Open Courseware courses in addition to going to lectures.

      Also, please note that this isn't "good school envy" or some form of angst/anger at my alma mater. I've enjoyed my undergraduate experience, and through independent studies I've had the opportunity to engage (on my own) with some very exciting subjects at a deep level. Unfortunately, I can't say my core coursework taught me much of anything.

  10. Re:Resource for teachers interested in Gamificatio by blue+trane · · Score: 2

    "how are you going to continually assess students to make sure the class is learning, and not just following patterns or playing a game."

    What do you know about learning? "Those who can't, teach." Teachers try to validate themselves by requiring students to pay attention to them, or else!

    I prefer Socrates's method: teach for free, and don't give exams. If you end up in a state of aporia, that's okay. As Confucius says in The Analects, Book II Chapter XVII: "Yu, shall I teach you what knowledge is? When you know a thing, to hold that you know it; and when you do not know a thing, to allow that you do not know it;-- this is knowledge."

    Instead of obsessing over whether a student is learning or not, and spending time trying to evaluate others, just concentrate on transferring knowledge; if you want to give assignments, ask the students to figure out something you don't know how to do yet. Work with the students to further knowledge, instead of acting as their adversary and withholding knowledge "with the closed fist of the teacher who keeps some things back" (Maha-parinibbana Sutta: Last Days of the Buddha, Part 2, Verse 32).

  11. I know how! by Sebastopol · · Score: 2

    We can have a scoring system where they ask questions about the lectures afterwards and award a lettered badge...

    we should call them ...

    EXAMS! /facepalm

    I only had one boring lecturer in my 4 year BS/EE, I -loved- lecture, especially physics, thermo, AI, and mechanics.

    Whine whine whine.

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  12. college for all at the cost of hands / trades is b by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2

    college for college for all at the cost of hands / trades is bad over all.

    * There is lot's thing that don't need 2-4-6++ years of pure class room.
    * Not all people do good in areas where you need do good on cramming based tests vs more hands / open book tests.
    * Parts of the tech fields move way to fast to fit well into the college time tables.
    * Lot's of college don't have as many teachers who have done real hands on work that the tech / Community Colleges have.
    * We need more stuff like the german dual education system.
    * The higher levels of college are geared to staying in academia.
    * CS are some colleges is high level theory that has big skills gaps with other parts of the IT field.

  13. Re:Resource for teachers interested in Gamificatio by fermion · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Certainly the socratic method and socratic circles can be a highly effective method to teaching many subjects. In fact, the classic lecture is exactly this. It models the method, and then encourages the student to go out and have dialogues, with students for example, taking on the roles of Simplicio, Salviati, and Sagredo. While this method is useful for philosophical discussions, it has fallen out favor for evidence based discussion as it inherently introduces personality into the discussion.

    And it is not really relevant here as we are specifically talking about engagement and grading. It does not matter if students are paying attention to a teacher or box. The key is that student engagement is the issue. Likewise, it does not matter whether grade are added up, or awarded based on tests, or level completed. What matter is that students are graded based on the content and skills they can demonstrate, not how they can manipulate the system to earn points.

    This is where the games come it. They can hold the attention of the student. But a game is something that is an adversarial process, where information is held back, and must be unlocked by completed often unrelated tasks. The experience of the student in that a game is often separated from the knowledge and skill is exactly what causes it be difficult to use. For instance, I once used a game that was developed by people who were very smart and very familiar with teaching, learning, children, and assessment. Points were added and levels gained as the student when through the process. Some motivated students did very well. But many students just played the game to win, that is simply figured out what the game rules were, played by those rules, and then exited without significant learning.

    Which is why simply saying that counting up, that rewarding the class for success, that being positive and engaging student self esteeem, is not sufficient and has not been sufficient since these things were in wide use 50 years ago, 100 years ago, I mean maybe even 10000 years ago. And what we are talking about is not educating a elite, but educating everyone. And to do that a wide array of methods must be used, not just the favorite or the one currently in fashion.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  14. Educational Game Development by degeneratemonkey · · Score: 2

    I have been working in this industry for nearly a decade, and as far as I can tell, the entire concept is complete bullshit.

    It's basically a circle-jerk for hacks who fancy themselves as revolutionary designers or educators. The reality is that there are no substantive results to speak of with regard to an improved learning experience. Nobody has managed to (legitimately) quantify the efficacy of game-based learning in any convincing way.

    Still, I will keep going for my slice of the hype-pie before it all disappears.

  15. Re:Resource for teachers interested in Gamificatio by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 2

    "how are you going to continually assess students to make sure the class is learning, and not just following patterns or playing a game."

    What do you know about learning? "Those who can't, teach." Teachers try to validate themselves by requiring students to pay attention to them, or else!

    And those who can't teach criticise those who can. I'm an English professor in a European university and the reason I want my students to pay attention to me is that I really don't want to have to fail students at the end of the year. I'm trying to teach them useful things, and I've got to select what to teach based on a broad variety in levels (the ones into online games are pretty capable, but many of the others have next-to-no ability) so that I can test them all to see if they are capable of surviving in the next guy's class, based on what he's going to teach them.

    However much we would like to measure each student's progress against themselves (and almost every teacher would like to do this) the reality is that we cannot teach every student individually, so we need to get them to a shared level so that they can continue to be taught together. If 15 of my first-years manage to learn 15 different subsets of the grammar and vocabulary of English, and I pass them all based on their individual knowledge and not on gaps in the knowledge we would want them to have, there will be no single lesson that the second-year professor can give that will be useful to all of them.

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  16. Re:Resource for teachers interested in Gamificatio by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 2

    You apparently didn't watch the video. One of the biggest points, and easiest to pull off with minimal cash money ... simply count scores UP instead of DOWN.

    That's part of what makes video games fun/addictive. You see a goal, and every step you make works towards that goal.

    Positive/additive marking as opposed to negative/subtractive marking is not a new idea -- it has been proposed many times before. In fact, it is the core principle behind most language aptitude rating now. This is not what gamification is about.

    It is one element of gamification, and as with all educational philosophies, one or two good points are held up to champion the entire philosophy.

    The key defining factor in gamification isn't the additive marking, though: the key factor is the "achievements" -- that crack-like substance that people add to mindless, boring games to convince us to stick at them long enough for us to generate useful advertiser income. Think about it -- we've probably all played tons of games that aren't "fun", but we just need to finish it. What does that say about teaching? It implies that learning is boring -- it is not "Learning" is fun -- what is not fun is "not learning". So the core principle of gamification is to that the content is far less important than the presentation, and that is extremely dangerous.

    It feeds directly into teachers' ego-saving strategies -- "it's not me, it's the student", "it's not me, it's the uncomfortable chairs", "it's not me, it's the colour of the paint" (yes, as soon as a study suggests that green aids concentration, you'll have teachers calling for the school to be repainted) -- and ultimately distracts teachers from looking critically at their material and their classroom skills. The best teachers are constantly refining their lessons based on classroom reactions.

    The worst teachers don't refine -- they simply blame an external factor, such as teaching methodology. They jump on the next bandwagon that rolls past and discover it hasn't solved their problems at all. So they blame the system and wait for the next bandwagon. (ad nauseum -- or should that be "ad pension-um"?)

    The last thing that education needs is a fad that actively pulls teachers away from thinking about the learning content and diverts their attention to the "paintjob".

    The Penny Arcade version is an exercise in naive frivolity: "you can fly" as an alternative to a grade? What ever happened to teaching kids to appreciate knowledge for its own sake and for its own applications? The example task ( finding the quickest path between two subjects ) was of very little pedagogical value. Yes, it is of some pedagogical value, but the idea of bonus points for the "winner" hyperinflates its importance to the student. In effect, you end up marking for students' time, not for what they've learned. Furthermore, the notion of having a winner at all goes against the notion of grading the student as an individual.

    And it is not a truism that competition motivates. Those kids lacking agency? They have a pessimistic outlook. They don't expect to win. So they don't take part in the race. I've personally found myself in the "not taking part" category -- mostly when it comes to selling raffle tickets or the like. The person who sells the most raffle tickets gets a gift voucher or something. I know I'm not going to win (others have large church groups, book groups, lots of friends and family locally etc) -- so what happens? I don't even bother taking a single book of tickets. If there had been no incentive, I would have sold one or two. But what's the point of entering the competition if you're not going to win? So what they're proposing is not a cure for alienation, but yet another cause for it. OK, it's alienation for different people, but it's not a cure-all -- it's simply robbing Peter to pay Paul.

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  17. Re:Resource for teachers interested in Gamificatio by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 2

    And even the achievement thing isn't that new either. I'm sure most of you will have heard of the scouts or the girl guides. "Merit badges" as the US calls them (they're just "badges" or "scout/guide badges" as far as I was concerned as a kid growing up in Scotland) motivate kids by giving them proof of their achievements... and that's where the games got the idea from.

    But there's a big difference between scout badges and game achievements: the scout badges all are proof that a particular useful skill has been mastered by the learner, but many achievements in video games are frivolities. "Killed 1000 enemies with the rail gun" doesn't reward skill, just persistence. The Portal Steam achievements include falling a ridiculously long distance, which means falling between two portals multiple times. Difficult to do without drifting slightly and landing accidently. The level of control required to do it is very high, but it's not a genuinely useful game skill.

    The Scottish education system attempted to build assessment based on the scout-like idea of unitary skills -- the ScotVEC modules built up to an NVQ or GNVQ. Guess what? It didn't work. Skills are interdependent and linked, and the school is still restricted by timetabling constraints.

    But most gamification isn't even a rehash of the "module" system (which is still alive and well anyway and damning many educational establishments to mediocrity), it's the game achievements. It's frivolities and non-curricular goals, and the model presented on Penny Arcade is one of the worst I've seen.

    --
    Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
  18. Gaming vs. Playing by m.shenhav · · Score: 2

    What is a Game? In my book:
    (I) a well defined Goal
    (II) a set of Strategies which each player may choose from
    (III) Rules for translating the Strategies into a Score (measuring progress to the Goal).

    It seems to me that any education system with grades is - in a sense - Gamified. We have been tallying points for centuries. The only difference is to what extent the Rules are clearly defined.

    It is however, in my experience some of the most valuable lessons I have learned are:
    (I) the Rules in Life are not at all obvious (if they exist at all)
    (II) Goals in Life are also not always clear - and even if they are, they frequently change.

    Thusly in contrast to the Game stand Play. When in Play - there are no rules, and no clearly defined goals (except having a good time). Those who Play form their Goals, their Rules and their Strategies as they go along. They can also change them as they go. While this is not necessarily the approach to education - it IS the way things go in the real world.