Slashdot Mirror


Solar Panels For Every Home?

Hugh Pickens writes "David Crane and Robert F.Kennedy Jr. write in the NY Times that with residents of New Jersey and New York living through three major storms in the past 16 months and suffering sustained blackouts, we need to ask whether it is really sensible to power the 21st century by using an antiquated and vulnerable system of copper wires and wooden poles. Some have taken matters into their own hands, purchasing portable gas-powered generators to give themselves varying degrees of grid independence. But these dirty, noisy and expensive devices have no value outside of a power failure and there is a better way to secure grid independence for our homes and businesses: electricity-producing photovoltaic panels installed on houses, warehouses and over parking lots, wired so that they deliver power when the grid fails. 'Solar panels have dropped in price by 80 percent in the past five years and can provide electricity at a cost that is at or below the current retail cost of grid power in 20 states, including many of the Northeast states,' write Crane and Kennedy. 'So why isn't there more of a push for this clean, affordable, safe and inexhaustible source of electricity?' First, the investor-owned utilities that depend on the existing system for their profits have little economic interest in promoting a technology that empowers customers to generate their own power. Second, state regulatory agencies and local governments impose burdensome permitting and siting requirements that unnecessarily raise installation costs. While it can take as little as eight days to license and install a solar system on a house in Germany, in the United States, depending on your state, the average ranges from 120 to 180 days."

13 of 735 comments (clear)

  1. Extremely expensive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    For my house in NJ, we got a quote for about $30,000 (of which we would pay $10,000 out of pocket) to put solar panels on our roof. We also were being asked to cut down 4 trees in order to get optimal sunlight. After hurricane Sandy, we instead bought a $450 3270 watt generator which is portable, won't be damaged outside, and can be shared with neighbors if need be.

    Note also that if you want to make your house off-the-grid (as option) with solar, that requires much more expense. Batteries, inverter switches, etc.

    1. Re:Extremely expensive by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 5, Informative

      True, especially the part about batteries. But then again, the solar panels won't need gasoline.

      Overall, solar panes as emergency power supply are not cost efficient. But as a long term investment to reduce your utility bill, they may be worthwhile. In the case of my parents' house (southern Germany, pretty high electricity prices of ~0.25 Euros/kWh), I think a small photovoltaic installation might amortize itself within a few years.

      --
      C - the footgun of programming languages
    2. Re:Extremely expensive by kimvette · · Score: 5, Informative

      Unfortunately, most generators in the sub-$2,000 range require an oil change every 12-20 hours of runtime, and burn through a tank of fuel every 5-8 hours. It's not terribly convenient. Flex fuel and LPG or LNG generators are better as you can hook them up to much larger fuel sources, negating the need for multiple refills per day, and they also typically extend runtime between oil changes to hundreds or even thousands of hours.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
  2. Solar panels are cheaper but the rest isn't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Sure solar panels have gone down in price. I put a 9kW solar array on my roof 2 years ago, using grid-tied microinverters. The catch is that if the grid power goes out, the microinverters shut down so they are not putting juice onto the grid and zapping linesmen. This means the solar panels are not able to do anything during a power outage. If you want the panels to run, then there will be a huge investment in a battery system with a charge controller, load shedding and rather expensive batteries, along with an auto transfer switch to cut you off from the grid... these things easily make the solar panels the cheap item in the system.

    1. Re:Solar panels are cheaper but the rest isn't by Sparticus789 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Some electrical engineering knowledge will take you a long ways.

      1. Calculate how much power you actually need during a power outage. A refrigerator is about 1,000 W. Throw in 100 W for light bulbs. TV/cable box/modem/router comes out to around 300 W (assuming flat-screen). So actually, your inverter only needs to be around 2,000 W (giving 10% cushion for device power-up). Those retail for $150-$200.

      2. Charge controller is mainly for high-end systems. Try a diode or a batter isolator made for a vehicle.

      3. Batteries are not that expensive. I just bought a 870 kW deep-cycle battery for my vehicle for $200. During the Derecho in July, I was able to power my TV, fridge, and laptop for over 3 hours (I turned my vehicle on every 3 hours for 10 minutes to recharge the battery). That worked for the 36 hours I was without power.

      4. Auto-transfer switch is nice, but unnecessary. If you are too lazy to flip 2 circuit breakers, one to isolate your house from the gird and another to connect your inverter to your house, then you are just screwed.

      --
      sudo make me a sandwich
  3. Re:"Grid Parity" ... on sunny days only by djh101010 · · Score: 4, Informative

    I put 3KW of panels on my parents' barn roof this summer. Their monthly bill has gone down from an average of $163 a month, to an average of $32 a month. On a $7000 investment. That's a 54 month payback - call it 5 years to make the numbers easy. It's grid tied. Doesn't solve the outage problem, but it certainly is a good investment when there's a 5 year return on investment. Still tied to the grill, yep. That way we can sell the surplus on sunny days. So tell me, am I lying, or am I completely delusional? Or maybe, just maybe, you're working from inaccurate or obsolete information?

  4. This same question is asked every single time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    "we need to ask whether it is really sensible to power the 21st century by using an antiquated and vulnerable system of copper wires and wooden poles."

    Every time there's a hurricane, people ask the power companies, "should we bury the power lines?" And the companies say, "sure, we'll have to charge you this much more in rates, and it'll take this many years" and the consumers say, "yeah, no, forget it."

    There's nothing antiquated about overhead power lines. It's an engineering decision with tradeoffs both ways. Neither technology is clearly superior.

    Overhead power lines are an obvious eyesore, and go down pretty regularly in extreme weather. (Although they're pretty resilient, too.) Burying power lines has significant costs even after you've got them buried. They're hard and more expensive to repair, they have a shorter lifespan (which most people don't know), and they're are competing for space with all the other crap we've got buried.

  5. Re:HOA approvals by HogGeek · · Score: 4, Informative

    It may be a state to state thing, but here in Colorado:

    Colorado law (C.R.S. 38-30-168)

      Associations are not permitted to prohibit the installation of solar panels on a unit or property which is owned by a member of the association. Any such prohibition in the governing documents of an association is void and unenforceable.

  6. Re:Flooded batteries by ebh · · Score: 5, Informative

    We have 35 panels on our roof. We lost nine trees during Sandy, but there was no damage to the solar panels. We also have solar canopies and things like that all over town, and I only saw minor damage in one installation. Our only real vulnerability is if a tree falls on the panels themselves.

  7. Re:Don't Strong Storms Eat Solar Panels? by ebh · · Score: 5, Informative

    Ours were fine, even though the wind took out nine trees.

  8. Re:"Grid Parity" ... on sunny days only by djh101010 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Our 3K array produces about 1200 watts of power under full clouds when it's raining. It's produced as much as 3100 watts in full sun. So yeah, it's degraded, but not useless.

  9. Re:Bureaucracy by bws111 · · Score: 4, Informative

    You say 'especially federal goverment', than give an example which is almost certainly from the lowest possible local level.

  10. Re:Bureaucracy by tizan · · Score: 4, Informative

    Indeed as usual ...we should fix what is not working...free market without control and checks will just kill people they don't need.
    E.g the tunnel in Japan that just collapsed...private toll paid tunnel.