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30 Days Is Too Long: Animated Rant About Windows 8
First time accepted submitter Funksaw writes "Back in 2007, I wrote three articles on Ubuntu 6, Mac OS X 10.4, and Windows Vista, which were all featured on Slashdot.
Now, with the release of Windows 8, I took a different tactic and produced an animated video.
Those expecting me to bust out the performance tests and in-depth use of the OS are going to be disappointed. While that was my intention coming into the project, I couldn't even use Windows 8 long enough to get to the in-depth technical tests. In my opinion, Windows 8 is so horribly broken that it should be recalled."
Sounds like a user problem to me. Windows 8 is working just fine for me.
" Windows 8 is so horribly broken that it should be recalled."
Now, forgive me, but you can totally enter into windows 8 from a standard windows interface (as I understand it). That and, data shows, people are becoming familiar with it. Put that onto anecdotal evidence that younger individuals pick up the interface just fine and I'm inclined to think you knew what you thought before ever using windows 8.
Eat sleep die
Hey just because its easier to brainwash a child does not mean we should be attempting to brainwash ourselves.
Also 3 is way to young to be allowed electronics or access to IT/telecommunications. Not until 5 yrs old and only with supervision and seriously protective software installed (I want my kids to be expert A+ hackers, not 2cnd rate script kiddies)
No amount of ranting is enough in this matter. Windows 8 is trash.
Not conviced. From both design and functionality standpoints it's utterly horrible, and a kid isn't going to fix that.
And who are you? "Those expecting me to..."; who was expecting you to do anything? You wrote about some OS releases 7 or 8 years ago, and now you didn't even write anything up, you made an animated video?
I'm supposed to care about this guy why?
I have been using Windows 8 for the last few weeks and it seems to work just as well as Windows 7 did on the same machine. I suspect most of the issues the OP is having is just due to change anxiety due to for example the new Metro interface. Metro does take a while to get used to but like the ribbon it grows on you after a while. I think there are better things to rant about than Windows 8 to be honest.
The problem is not that it's difficult to learn (though it is a bit of a shock at first); the problem is that some people just don't like it. You might be perfectly content with a touch-first tablet interface on your desktop, but Windows 8 will never touch any of my personal machines. That being said, I am still interested to try it out on a tablet device where many of the design decisions might actually make sense.
If you find this post offensive, don't read it! THINK ABOUT YOUR BREATHING! I am what I am because of how apes behave.
Because three- and five-year olds don't actually have to get any work done?
Why would I want to use an interface designed for a 3 year old? Hmm? Come on.
Yes I use the command line and the function keys and I can fly around the thing when I have to. Doesnt change the fact it's just about the worst interface imaginable, and confuzzles the regular users to no end, resulting in them constantly calling me to figure out how to do the simplest of things. I am not saying previous windows interfaces were all that great, but in general people had gotten to the point of being accustomed to them at least. Breaking things for the sake of breaking things does not a good product make.
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
in short:
"It's not what I am use to so I won't bother with a in depth analyses that may not support my bias."
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
No...what recoiledsnake means is this:
If you use a computer like a 3 year old, then Windows 8 is perfect. That includes splashy, bright coloured interfaces, and chunky buttons big enough that someone lacking good fine motor control can still click on them.
For anybody who actually uses a computer like an adult, though, it sucks rocks.
"City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
Some of us started on paper tape and punch cards. Windows 8, Unity, whatever. It's not going to stay the same forever. Cry me a river!
I'm holding it wrong?
So removing windowing, and requiring all programs to be full screen, so only able to run one program at a time, is an improvement to you?
Yeah, that would be terrible... too bad Windows 8 does exactly none of that.
If you can avoid metro, it's pretty usable.
But metro intrudes at annoying times for various routine tasks. Frustrating indeed. Showing how a child can perform cherry-picked tasks doesn't change this.
QUESTION: Why'd Microsoft attempt to shove something down folks' throats they didn't, & clearly DON'T, want (and the figures show that much backing me)?
* Answer me a another question: Why should I, or anyone else, have to learn anything new they didn't WANT IN THE 1st PLACE??
(We're all used to the Win9x style interface, there was nothing wrong with it @ all - so what was YOUR point???)
Understand this as well, per my subject-line above:
You're using "blank slates" in 3 & 5 yr. old children!
So - have you considered the rest of us are NOT "blank slates", & that we're already conditioned & used to something we've all used for, what?? 17 yrs. or more now???
Please... your links are comparing us to children who haven't gotten used to a damned thing yet.
E.G.-> Why don't you learn how to drive a crane to work instead of your car... oh, wait - what's that?? You aren't used to it??? What's the MATTER with you, boy!!!
APK
P.S.=> A cardinal rule of sales: You can't sell something people don't want... & they do NOT want to have to LEARN what they do not want to - get it? Good... now, try make Microsoft understand that, & thanks.
Above ALL else here - This, from me? It isn't "negativity"... it's just telling it how it is, & I'm probably 1 of a VERY SMALL MINORITY AROUND HERE (windows fans, vs. *nix folks)
... apk
It's the primary interface because they will collect a 30% fee of the retail sales price of every program written for it. So obviously they want to coerce people into using it.
You can pretty much use Windows 8 just like Windows 7, just the "start menu" is now fullscreen.
Which is exactly the problem. You lose conveyance: there's no obvious way to discover how to open the Start menu with the mouse. And you lose context: opening the Start menu completely covers up the application you're using,
too bad Windows 8 does exactly none of that.
Until you accidentally swipe the wrong way, and your desktop disappears and is replaced by a full-screen weather application.
Coming from someone who has had a deep and long dislike of Microsoft, Windows 8 is not that bad. Metro is half baked and feels like it was tossed in at the last moment. Other than that, I have had less issues with Windows 8 than its predecessors.
Now then, what were they thinking with Metro? I have no idea. It feels half assed, and adds no value. The screen looks like someone's idea for webcasting push technology from the late 1990's.
"To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
Microsoft needs to destroy Android or they will lose their monopoly pricing power, and the only way to do that is with pushing Windows Phone and it's Metro application stack. If the users see desktop first there's no reason for Metro apps to be developed, and with no applications, no reason to by WinPho.
"Tens of millions of licenses have been forced down the throats of new pc and laptop buyers...."
FTFY
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Basically, he discusses the four c's: control, conveyance, continuity, and context, and gives examples about why all of these are horribly back-leveled from earlier Windows versions. Most damningly, he points to reduced control by the user...which is a trend that seems to have permeated through Windows since Windows 95. He summarizes by referring to someone else who observed that Windows 8 was really designed for content consumption by the user rather than content creation as personal computer devices were originally intended for. Content consumption is probably the main purpose of a tablet but we will still need content creation equipment and Windows 8 appears poorly suited for that, while not offering any alternative due to ending sales of Windows 7. His most damning comment is that Windows 8 is "user hostile." The best thing about his comments is that they will (hopefully) start the discussion about what capabilities need to be retained in future personal computers and future Windows versions.
How is a person supposed to know what to type to find a thing that isn't listed? This has frustrated me at times in Ubuntu also. Why the menu hate?
That is sort of the point. You aren't using it like Windows 8 you are using it like Windows 7 with a 3rd party application to make it MORE like Windows 7.
The complaint is Windows 8 out of the box is junk.
My studio - www.graylands.ca
I'll just copy my reply to another similar post... So you're ignoring half the OS, and you've installed a 3rd party application to make the part you aren't ignoring actually usable?
There are two fundamental problem with the "just install XYZ add-on and it becomes tolerable" perspective.
1) Every time you have to use the computer of someone not savvy enough to want/install such a thing, you're stuck with the horrible stock configuration.
2) Every time you have to use a locked-down/policy-controlled computer, you're stuck with the horrible stock configuration.
#1 kinda reminds me of having to use the Gentoo or Ubuntu machine of someone who has different command-line needs from install-to-that-point.
#2 is a tad less of a short-term concern, since many of those are just moving from XP to 7, but a serious long-term concern if things aren't fixed in 9.
Seriously, I know several people who actually like Windows 8 better.
Cool story bro.
Watch a couple of videos if you're lazy and learn some shortcuts and it's a better Windows 7 at the worst.
While Windows 7 was a bit annoying when you were trying to find somehting in the new control panel, if you knew Windows XP you could pretty much use it right away, and teach yourself the few things that had changed.
WIndows 8 simply has too steep a learning curve. You need to watch instructional videos to figure it out. I'm sure it's a fine phone OS, and maybe if you're used to a different phone OS it's not that strange, but nothing changed for the better for keyboard/mouse users trying to get work done. Why would I want this on a laptop or desktop?
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
So you're saying the changes from Windows 7 to Windows 8 are fine if you use 3rd party software to ... suppress them all and make it just like Windows 7 was? Hardly an endorsement.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Windows 8 is now about giving each application your full attention
Which leads to doorway amnesia, as I pointed out in another comment. I don't want to give attention to an application; I want to give attention to a task that involves the use of several applications.
The Start screen is an overview of everything you have available and live tiles allow them to each give you different types of information allowing you to decide if they are worth your time or not.
So why can't I have this Start screen take up only half the screen, so that the other applications involved in this task remain at least partly visible to retain context in my brain?
The best way to describe what's been done is that windows is now more about flipping through a book
A task may require (and often does require) more than one book.
and less about putting all the pages spread out on your desk.
In other words, as the video points out, it's Microsoft Window, singular, not Microsoft Windows, plural.
All you need to know is - who the hell decided to call this crap on the side the "Charms Bar"?
Seriously? That alone disqualifies Windows 8 from being a usable operating system.
His list of four design elements that Windows 8 CLEARLY breaks is perfectly correct. A tablet and a desktop PC are TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT ANIMALS. Mixing the UI metaphor is just stupid.
I don't think the notion of a "recall" is likely to be a useful suggestion. However, I think a "Service Pack" that makes some of the UI screwups "optional" is likely to be in Windows 8 immediate future, despite Microsoft's insistence that there won't be any more "Service Packs".
OTOH, there are enough third party utilities out there that attempt to correct some of the more egregious UI errors that maybe Microsoft will try to "tough it out". After all, as the guy says, anyone buying a new machine is pretty much going to be force-fed Windows 8, and we all know Microsoft couldn't care less about its customers.
I do agree that Linux is undergoing the same sort of stupidity. The Ubuntu Unity interface was roundly denounced by many Linux users. I didn't like a lot of the KDE 4.x changes when I shifted from KDE 3.x to 4.x and either never used the "features" that were added and in a couple cases disabled them.
I don't have an a priori problem with trying to improve PC user interfaces. I DO have a problem with making changes that no one has asked for, simply on someone's notion that "hey, this could be COOL!" "Cool" invariably leads to CRAP.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
I thought in a general sense, as a community, we'd moved past cheering for nerd-rage melodrama.
Windows 8 makes a few gaffes, but they're largely the same problems that Windows 7, Office 2007, and others started introducing. It can be annoying, but it's the same stuff taken to a reasonable next step, as well as UI unification between desktop, laptop, and tablet.
None of that is necessarily a fun thing, but OSX has been pushing many similar UI changes for longer. A lot of people were unhappy with Lion's increasing similarity and unification with iOS, just in case anybody actually forgot that in less than a year.
The bottom line is, 8 works in the same ways as 7, just with some added complexity. The easiest way to almost entirely remove that complexity? A start menu replacer. People recommend Start8, ViStart, and others. My personal recommendation is "Classic Shell". It works exactly the same as it used to on Vista+, except it adds the "Apps" to the start menu as well.
But even so, why wouldn't somebody be able to figure this out? The video author was squealing about how the start menu "hurt him deeply". Trackpads aren't really supposed to do "touch gestures" by default. It's vendor opt-in. Logitech opted in, and chances are, this guy didn't install whatever WIndows 8 drivers or control panel may or may not be available. Either way, it's a vendor issue. Just like 'no install/repair/recovery/etc' disk is a vendor issue. If you don't want vendor issues, you don't buy things from those vendors.
All of the UIs Windows (95-W8), OSX, KDE, iOS, Android, etc are different. What everything has in common is that there are roughly 6 different things you have to know about each, then consistency covers all of the multi-step operations, or using various applications. Occasionally you get something that breaks out of that a bit (Office 2007+). There are so many "advanced" things, like command line digging, reinstalling from scratch, that the overwhelming majority of people will simply ask a friend for help with or pay a PC repair company. That's pretty much regardless of operating system.
But I digress. The rant is pretty simply over the top drama. It should sell itself as entertainment (if it at least had any humor), not as something relevant to 'tech news'. It's not politically correct to mention, but this guy sounds and acts like the stereotypical nerd, going into a panicky, narcissistic rage about primarily one change that, overall, isn't that significant to day to day use, AND for which there exist free, open source, and easy to use workarounds, while still obtaining benefits of a newer OS.
He himself admits he only tried it for 30 minutes, in a coffee shop, and didn't bother one iota further.
Personally, I've been using it for 4 months (and preview versions before that) with NO issues that would meaningfully impact your average, or above-average user. All of my personal complaints are exceedingly specific and technical, and have mostly been taken care of by various updates.
And, in the interest of disclosure, I'm not the kind of person who likes Windows, or most other OSes, in a general sense.
I prod and patch kernels, have no problems custom-rolling EFI stub-only boot on Linux, etc. What I really miss, is being able to run highly customized FreeBSD and still use ~90% of my Windows games at full speed. That's mostly a hardware/driver/wine(!) issue, though.
So when I say I'm using Windows 8 in the exact same manner as I use Windows 7, I'm not exaggerating. I actually like the availability of some of the W8 new features. I middle click on the start button (or use Shift+Windows) if I want to see live tiles like the weather...just like on OSX, you use F12 to get the Dashboard to pop up a full screen of 'one glance' kinda information. Even before using Classic Start, the only quirk I took issue with, on the 'start screen', is that when typing for programs, it wouldn't search for stuff like control panels "by default". You'd have to move the mouse over to select "settings". Mos
"A Goddess rarely smiles for she is forced by others to be an island unto herself." - Zephiris
Let me understand this.
You like Win8. You're part of a select audience for which Win8 was designed for. You haven't enabled the start menu, because you love the metrosexual aspect so much. You love that shit, and you didn't even have a learning curve to deal with. You don't need or want any of the more advanced features of Windows that are semi-hidden on the metrosexual workspace.
Of course that invalidates the complaints that all the rest of us have about Win8 and the other metro "desktops" being pushed by Gnome, Unity, etc. We're all just idiots.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
Yes it does. It's the 'metro' interface which has exactly ONE app on screen at any one time (apparently random times too!).
Within the 'metro' UI that is partially true (there is some support for side-by-side apps), but that is not the only UI on Windows 8, as such his assertions are demonstrably false, they didn't remove windowing, they didn't require all programs to be full screen and they didn't remove the ability to run multiple programs at once, that is all still there.
When people say, it's a good app, I use the Desktop...they're saying that Win8 isn't good and Win7, which is what the Desktop basically is, is what they prefer to use.
So you are under the impression that the only thing different between Windows 8 and Windows 7 is the 'metro' UI, in that case your post makes more sense, still wrong though.
No amount of ranting is enough in this matter. Windows 8 is trash.
i love how fanboys can declare one OS trash because they've become religious about using 1 or 2 platforms. The new windows version is actually quite compelling, for the first time I can make use of the windows key combo to do useful things that windows would never previously allow. that said, you "feel" that the crud that left behind in win7 (compatibility layers etc.) is now gone. the metro interface is something to get used to, but i can execute a program much faster with winkey+q much like i can with spotlight on a mac. switching between interfaces is a no brainer, i can't believe folks actually have issues here.
for christ sake, do you know what trash is? trash is something that doesn't work...windows works for folks that dont have the money to buy a 1200 macbook or the wherewithal to figure out how ubuntu works....and if you think im a fanboy of any kind your seriously wrong, ive run and compiled with the best of linux distros for the latter of 15+ years...and i have to say, the desktop is sound, task manager is greatly improved.
May I ask, what improvements?
Aside from the new Start Screen / Start Menu, which is controversial at best, the second most important feature I had heard is that 'it boots up faster.'
Ok, so it boots up faster...I am on a SSD, and before that a 7200 RPM hard drive. My boot times are, what, less than a minute? And part of that has to do with my machine having any number of startup programs / drivers for things hanging off of it?
I mean, don't get me wrong, faster boot times are always appreciated, but for that to be the second most taughted feature....I'm having trouble justifying the $40 upgrade from Windows 7, let alone buying OEM or full versions of 8.
And the third feature is, what, the Windows Store? How is that a feature? Why do I need a marketplace on my desktop? It's an Operating System...what new, compelling features are you offering that makes this operating system a must have? Better driver support for exotic devices? Easier mass deployment / imaging routines? A more powerful framework for designing applications / programs that is not arbitrarily limited to the latest version?
Has MS Paint been upgraded to something Photoshop like? Has the Image Viewer been redesigned to have more features / work with more formats? Has the CD / DVD / BluRay software been upgraded to something more useful? How about the creation and extraction of archives? Backup and restore? Has the Media Player been rewritten to be less annoying, something approaching WinAmp in terms of usefulness? How about its support for codecs? Both old ones and new ones. Subtitles. Have they implemented 'Admin Command Line' here as a standard option? How about video transcoding? A PDF viewer that doesn't make people spit tacks?
I am John Hurt.
I don't understand it.
Windows 8 is just Windows 7 PLUS metro.
Surely you could just not use the metro parts and it would be just the same experience as windows 7 (mostly). In fact, I do just that.
I got used to the new start screen - it's not _that_ bad, no worse than hunting through menus to find what you're looking for, and actually better in that you can just start typing the name of a program and it comes up in the search. Or you can type the name of a control panel applet or setting, and that works too.
There are definite improvements over windows 7, even if they are minor. So in general, if all you want is an incremental improvement over windows 7, you can use it just like that.
No one is forcing you to use metro for all your apps.
So yeah, windows 8 is less than ideal in that some settings screens take you to a metro interface (but you could live without them), and metro itself is horrible, but if you use it just like windows 7 and all versions before that, it still works fine.
This seemed like a reasonable sig at the time.
He explained exactly what was wrong, and why.
He used the basic principals of GUI design and explained why Windows 8 is a total failure.
Great job. No wonder the MS shills are going crazy.
How are users who have been opening the Start menu with the mouse for a decade and a half expected to discover the Windows key?
They're not. They're expected to move their mouse to the corner where they remember having it, and clicking there, which brings up the Start screen. Furthermore, when they first log into the OS, it plays a short video that urges them to do just that.
Erm, you mean they're supposed to INTUITIVELY know to move their mouse to some point on the screen WHERE THERE IS NOTHING and CLICK THE NOTHING?
Sounds like a perfect description of COMPLETE UI FAILURE to me.
Visit CryptoGnome in his home.
He is right though. The negativity against Win8 has gone way overboard, even for /.
I've at least used it for a good period of time now (a year.). The start screen is ok at work, on my dual 30" monitor set-up because the desktop is always visible, but it's jarring on my home system. I'm also not a fan of the non-flat search. This is all solved by using classicshell or start8 or some such thing - which I have done at home, at least for a month or so, and then I just slowly got used to the "new" way of doing things. It's tolerable. I spend >99% of my time on the desktop, so really I can't be too loud about where I spend
Two things come to mind:
He is correct that its usability suffers from Metro and the abrupt changes to the UI when it is being pushed so hard. One of many points made in the video was that people who have never used it will find it very confusing because in more ways than one the UI gets in the way. Microsoft trying to have its cake and eat it too is what is causing all this grief. Instead of doing like Apple did with the change from OS9 to OS10 and dropping legacy and backwards compatibility to go with the new paradigm they want to maintain backwards compatibility. This is because Microsoft fears backlash from both its main customers, big businesses and governments, and the developers for those businesses and governments. Worse, they really made it for the tablet market all the while still trying to hold onto the laptop / desktop market with it. The point made in the video of the differences between a mouse / touchpad and touchscreen are valid.
To do it right, Metro should NOT be the default interface if you are installing it to a machine without a touchscreen just as the "classic" should not be the default if you are installing it to a tablet. They are different beasts. A tablet is more for viewing content than it is a great workhorse for making that content no matter what Microsoft or Apple may think. An even better solution is to do two different products. One for the tablets and one for the desktop / laptop and let the consumers choose which they really want for what products. Again, that too was pointed out in this video.
The second observation of your post deals with your contempt for humans. It is those very humans that Microsoft is trying to impress. There is a very, very large segment of the population that are not pleased with the Metro interface that Microsoft really wants to go with. The so called "fix" of downloading a second application to eliminate it as the advice that is often given is proof enough of that dislike. Calling that many people names isn't the way to win over support.
This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
For me, the bigger the screen, the more useless it is because the touchpad interface requires larger and larger gestures to get at what's needed.. Remember the windows 2k/xp start menu with its crazy long cascaded menus? No one wants to sort through those. Metro 'start' is like that, only worse because the tiles are huge.
Most of the complaints in the video link are right on.. It's jarring and mystifying at the same time. Basic functionality should never, ever be hidden. That includes configuration utilities. The whole concept of having two separate interfaces with separate rules is also beyond stupid. The frustration isn't just in figuring it out, it's having to figure out ways to complete the work I need to that actually take longer than it did on previous operating systems.
What's this trend in attacking 'negativity' as though doing so is a legit argument against what was said? Is this some kind of peer pressure to conform to the head-in-ground masses of ostriches who can't handle reality because they're too weak willed to not take everything personally?
You can shrink the size of the tiles, but I think it would be a disadvantage. I can use a higher mouse sensitivity because I don't have to be anywhere near as precise when I actually click on those tiles. I can completely mitigate the gesture size, and use a mouse sensitivity I like. I see there is also an option to fill my large monitor (settings->show more tiles), which actually gives me an array of 8x12 tiles if I use the smaller setting for each tile - 92 icons I can access without navigating submenus or scrolling on a 2560x1600 monitor. That's actually not bad. I like flat structures, they are fast.
That said, I rarely have to use the start screen. I stay in desktop mode. I've pinned my commonly used applications, about 15 or so, to the taskbar. I never need to open the start screen to access them. It's how I used 7. The start screen comes in to play when I search, and I now access it using win+F intead of just hitting the windows key.
I've seen the actual "start" tiled interface a few times this month because I had something specific to do on it. I'm not even trying to avoid, it's just the way I use windows tends to avoid it. I would still prefer to have the old style search back - flat, and tucked down in the lower left, as it should be. In short, the new start screen is not the end of the world. As for gesture size, I don't care, because it's fairly silly to call an OS bad because of that, especially when a highly efficient type-to-launch system is in place. Win7's start menu needs more precise aim, but I never ran into that limitation because I never used my mouse to find and launch programs.
What I do agree with is that functionality is hidden. The problem with the video is that it claims that the functionality is not there at all first, then says, "actually it's hidden". Hidden is bad, but manageable. All the same shortcut keys work, so for keyboard users like me there's really no difference. The guy didn't even notice that the old windows 7 backup feature is still there, which would have allowed him to restore to an SSD. The video is pretty much completely un-researched, and while it makes one good point - don't hide features - it's a failure in every other sense. The person who made it should be embarrassed. He's also contradicting himself: In the past he claimed Vista was unusable, now he's claiming otherwise.
I got used to the new start screen - it's not _that_ bad, no worse than hunting through menus to find what you're looking for, and actually better in that you can just start typing the name of a program and it comes up in the search. Or you can type the name of a control panel applet or setting, and that works too.
What if you don't remember the name of that control panel applet? What if you don't know the application's name, but would otherwise find it if you could browse through menus?
"Just typing the name" of some computer program or appet can be horribly inconvenient.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
"The guy didn't even notice that"?
A bad user interface doesn't necessarily mean that the option isn't there. If the option exists, but is difficult to discover or presented in such an unintuitive way that people will miss it, that's the fault of the user interface, not the fault of the user for not noticing it.