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Clay Shirky On Hackers and Depression: Where's the Love?
giminy writes "Clay Shirky has a thought-provoking piece on depression in the hacker community. While hackers tend to be great at internet collaboration on software projects, we often fall short when it comes to helping each other with personal problems. The evidence is only anecdotal, but there seems to be a higher than average incidence of mental health issues among hackers and internet freedom fighters. It would be great to see this addressed by our community through some outreach and awareness programs."
It would be great to see this addressed by our community through some outreach and awareness programs.
I assume these programs would be released under the GPL, or some other open-source license?
.... have the time to think, read, argue, discuss and debate on the internet. So it's plausible simply gives a certain percentage of very smart people lots of free time to ruminate and think about things thoroughly.
Take these SmaxoGlythKlein brand pills so you are more normal. You want to be normal, right?
Who is this guy, and why does his opinion matter?
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
So cute when people get full of themselves and take on a title like that. Sometimes the depression is when that lofty self-perception is a kite that gets snagged in one of the trees of reality.
I suspect it's also that a lot of us became computer types after neglecting human ties to some degree, and once we get old enough we either come back and learn to deal with people, or we become increasingly lonely and unbalanced as we age. Sometimes both.
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
but when I take over the world, you will all be batteries for war machine... just saying...
I'm not signing anything
Most activist communities have a higher than normal incidence of mental health issues. Personality disorders, paranoia, anger management issues, I've seen a lot of them in various political activist groups.
Why can't I mod "-1 Idiot"?
Great idea! Let's have some entity set up a helpline for hackers and internet freedom fighters, complete with a call center. Since there are mandatory record-keeping laws, they can also keep track of who they are talking to, what phone number they are using, and details about the call. Nothing in there would be ripe for governmental abuse. Who cares about subpoena's and government fishing expeditions?
sudo make me a sandwich
Post anything regarding how you feel on almost anyplace on the internet, and all you'll get in return is mocking and derision.
>> It would be great to see this addressed by our community through some outreach and awareness programs.
OK, who let the social worker on Slashdot? Seriously, when has "outreach" or "awareness" ever solved anything? (Urban violence? Drug use? What?)
I believe that was Steven Wright, but whoever said it was correct
The hacking community's lack of emotional support has left me in despair.
I wonder if we get so focused on the technology side of our world that we forget that this work (programming, architecting systens, etc) has a significant creative side and as such the problems that often plague other creative groups. The anguish and troubles of writers, painters, etc are well documented and seemingly (to me anyway) an accepted part of embracing their work. I know that in my own case letting on that I am anything less than 'normal' has been a scary proposition because of the threat of not only being seen as less than capable but also a direct threat to my livelyhood. After all, software people are nearly interchangeable, right?
And Clay's advice near the end (you did read that far, right?) is dead on. We're a group who likes to fix things. We are not trained to fix this. The best we can do is aim someone we are concerned about in the right direction.
dt
While the evidence he discusses may be only anecdotal, the conclusion he reaches is logical.
There are certain lifestyle and behavioural patterns common among hackers which do leave us prone to depression and other mental health issues. We do tend to spend much of our time alone, engaged in solitary and sedentary pursuits of the mind which - while we may find incredibly rewarding and cool - those around us in meat-space just don't understand.
Now add in the consideration that we tend to find ourselves on the metaphorical wild frontier of the technological world we inhabit. In a place where we are carving out the basis for the new and interesting but always having to look over our shoulders in fear that some technologically inept idiot with a bunch of lawyers with come along and either crush what we have built or steal it from us.
Added to this we, due to our lifestyles, often lack the aspects of life which are typically used to de-stress and prevent depression: good diet to provide the required thinking fuel (no, caffeine and sugar aren't enough), exercise for endorphins to let us forget the shit of the world for a bit and physically present people for company so we can put things in perspective.
Finally, consider that we have both good reason to be down about things and due to our lifestyles tend to lack the things which help prevent depression... yeah, it's not a surprising conclusion.
So, what can we all do about it?
AKA, there is no evidence. (There is such a thing as anecdotal evidence, but I don't see any in this case.)
The news is biased. A high profile hacker commits suicide. How many hackers didn't commit suicide that day? That doesn't get covered.
We're also biased for our group. It's like how you buy a car, and suddenly that model of car is everywhere. Those cars were there before, you just didn't notice them because they weren't your car. You noticed the story about the hacker committing suicide, but do you remember the other high profile suicide reported that day? The one from the community you don't associate yourself with? Of course not.
We could just as easily talk about the connection between (American) football and depression and suicide. We could discuss whether the recent high profile suicides are related to head trauma and brain injuries, or the transition from being part of a team to being alone in retirement, or any number of other factors.
Except retired football players have a lower rates of suicide than the general population. So whatever factors played a part in those few high profile cases, the evidence doesn't support the idea that this is a high risk group.
It's good if the community can become tighter and help each other out, but that's true of any community. The summary and phrases like "internet freedom fighters" make me think of precious little snowflakes battling the tyranny of society from their parents' basement.
Critical thinking is part of the problem. If you've trained your mind to see the world as it actually is, then you're less likely to have comfortable illusions to fall back on. And because other people don't like having their illusions questioned, you don't have much of a social network to fall back on either.
And then when you look for help, you find that psychiatry is bullshit just like everything else. SSRI's don't actually work except for the most severely depressed. And therapy... well when your problem is that you see the world accurately, what exactly is therapy going to do?
Even if you could stop thinking critically, is that an ethical thing to do? Most of the world's problems are due to not enough critical thinking, so if you have that skill and don't use it, you're deliberately becoming part of the problem.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
There's nothing wrong with us...there's something wrong with the world.
When I first read this post I thought " yes, but what can be done?". I've been a programmer for 13 years. Socially maladjusted people are all over the industry. You can't force people to take a look at themselves and go get help.
However, there is the power of the example. Look how many IT types went from being obese to slim with John Walkers "The Hacker's Diet".
What is needed for high profile ubergeeks to publish their own accounts cleaning up their mental health and perhaps providing a geeky way, a "Hacker's Diet" for mental health and social skills ( beyond the ground covered by the PUA community ).
I'm sure there are at least a few ubergeeks who had mental health issues, social adjustment issues and who overcame them. It is time to publish.
One of the things I've noticed in the 'professional developer' community is that there is a bit of Jock Culture going on.
First of all, you have a business environment that tends to favor younger, fresher talent and puts a LOT of pressure on aging developers to keep up with their younger peers, many of whom are capable of (in the very, very short run) unhealthy work practices. 80 hour work weeks and back-to-back all-nighters are doable when you're 22 years old. They're fucking painful at 30, and ruinous by 35.
And it's hard to say 'No' to them because we've just come out of a nasty recession when upper management is all too eager to lay you off in favor of younger developers eager to prove themselves.
That shit WILL give you depression, anxiety, and insomnia, and all of those kill.
Second, again with the Jock Culture, developer culture tends to be dominated by hot-headed males, many of whom are eager to replicate locker-room style pecking orders in the cube farms... and that crap just doesn't work when you're developing software.
(Ex-military guys? I'm looking at you here. I've seen you do this shit. Stop it.)
Sadly, those pecking orders are often directly related to pay. The guy who manages to wedge his way into the 'Project Lead' or 'Senior Developer' slot tends to have a few more dollars attached to them. Again, the pressure results in depression, anxiety, and insomnia which are proven killers.
Shirkey's piece spends a lot of time talking about Aaron Swartz, but Aaron was a unique case of being uniquely and unfairly persecuted by multiple 800 pound gorillas. His depression and suicide *should* have been as fucking obvious to anyone who knew him as an 18 wheeler rolling the wrong way down the freeway.
The answer to these issues is, perhaps a shade ironically, the same answer we should be looking at in regards to our sudden flareup of chronic school shooting disease:
Mental Healthcare needs to be made a priority in this nation. We need to destigmatize ADMITTING mental health issues and seeking treatment for them. Also, we need to completely ditch the notion that drugs used for treatment of mental health problems cause more harm that good.
Seriously, guys, when you're having daily panic attacks, when sleep won't come for days at a time, when the world starts showing up in black and white and more black than white... it's time to talk to a doctor. And if your doctor won't help, ditch him and find a doctor who will.
Apropos captcha: Biopsy
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I don't know about the basement dwellers but I need some Vitamin D3 supplementation at least in winter or I get the blues and the flu.
So maybe we should feed the trolls some D3 for a change.
And before I forget, it maybe the only real cancer prevention that science knows about and this stuff is cheap - http://www.grassrootshealth.org/_download/scientists'%20letter%20050508.pdf
Hey, doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. It would probably be 90% men signed up tho!
Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
It's amazing how backward DSM-IV (and -5) can be in considering human behavior. Psychology gives lip service to evolution, then ignores it in determining the grounds for "mental illness."
Let's consider kleptomania. Stealing is a behavior that is rewarded by evolution, and is a cross-species phenomena. The theft of resources is hardly an oddity in a few species like the cuckoo, but is a subset of general parasitic relationships, all of which are hard-wired into our biology. There is an endorphin rush from stealing, and the perpetrator receives an opioid high as a reward in addition to the object of the theft.
Kleptomania is reduced to an illness in mental health, with no particular understanding of its origins. Obviously, we as a species would not exist were it not for the many evolutionary behaviors, including this one, that allowed us to survive. In a supreme gesture of arrogance, an overstatement of an evolutionary imperative becomes a sickness. We do not understand who we are.
The same goes for all the endorphin/opioid compulsive behaviors, including alcohol/substance abuse, compulsive gambling, likely pyromania, and even binge eating (all treatable with the naltrexone family). The quackery of this profession is staggering.
The U.S. has around 30,000 suicides per year, yet there is no thorough study of lithium in an attempt to curb this number (instead we prefer to solve the problem with gun control). Depression is common for these people, yet no studies of the ingestion of tryptophan with niacin to increase serotonin production exist. We don't even understand how basic diet can help these people.
We don't care about those who are dying, only about labeling and profiting. We have the mental health profession that we deserve.
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Comment removed based on user account deletion
I second this. It's easy to isolate yourself as an IT guy. I went through a work-at-home period where I felt gloomy all the time. It took me a while to realize that isolation can lead to a feedback loop where you're gloomy and don't feel like being social; making your more gloomy. Working at home might be a utopia for some people, but I hated it.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
Lets be real, most of these "hackers" are people who tend to favor sitting in front of a computer over actually being with people and/or getting exercise. By "being with people" I mean actually being with them - in the flesh - not sitting on some "social" website (which is kind of a joke - "social" websites are about as far as one can get from being social).
Step away from the computer, go out and do something different with your friends, get some exercise - you'll find that you will just feel better. Oh, and eat a healthy diet - it sounds cliche, but it really does make a difference.
I say this being a professional software developer for the last 25 years and a nerd for far longer than that. When I get too caught up with my intellectual pursuits and forget to get exercise and hang out with my friends, I feel worse. When I balance my intellectual pursuits with the other aspects of life, I feel much better.
Hackers are not insane, rather there's a different definition of "Normal"
Go look at the average facebook or youtube comment, then cross reference those with what you see on slashdot, and again with fark, 4chan, somethingawful, etc.
What you'll find...
- The more anonymous someone is, the more likely the person writing the post (like myself) will write their opinion, or opinion-is-truth statements where others can agree or disagree. This doesn't always mean they are making the comments to benefit of the people reading them. No much of the time it's just to provoke the conversation in a direction they want it to go. Not quite as bad "trolling" but not the kind of thing people should be doing to begin with, because these conversations are based on trying to make the poster feel better about themselves by putting someone else down.
- There's a pecking order. It's generally considered "good" to be somewhat of a geek about anything. It's however you're pushed down the ladder for various things: /b/
Science Geeks (as in research) >Computer geeks (includes hackers) > MMO/RPG Geeks (all multiplayer games where one can spend 12 hours playing it in one sitting) > Comicbook geeks (includes print and webcomics) > Toy geeks ((action figures/dolls,) board games, diecast cars, cards, etc) includes collecting and creation)> Cosplay geeks (includes conventions, LARP and renfaire)> wikipedia editors >fanfic writers> Furries > Bronies > 4chan
What you find is the incidence of Aspergers and GLBT identification increases the farther to the Right. It's considered embarrassing to admit to people in the group to the left that you have anything to do with the group to the right, and as such people have multiple pseduo-anonymous identities for these.
You'll also notice this pecking order on pretty much any forum on the internet. Sometimes the order shifts one or two places depending how topical the forum is. Just about everyone agrees that the last three belong where they are. This isn't to say that furries are bad, but the rotten apples in that barrel spread quickly.
And Google, Facebook, and Blizzard wonder why people DONOTWANT their real name published.
- The more visible the content is, the more trolls it attracts. Moderation be damned.
Like if the next generation of geeks wants to clean up this image, what they need to do is keep their own kids on a short leash and be involved with absolutely everything, be it computer games or cosplay, and show good behavior.
The bad behavior that everyone notices, is why many people just become NEET, Hikikomori, Basement dweller, etc It's because they're already a lost cause and creep people out. Bad behavior just begets more.
Now to bend this argument back. Social games (This can include MMORPG-type games), IRC chat, and Twitter can rectify some of this by encouraging people to communicate in order to work together. Many MMO games currently are becoming less and less "MMO" and more like "Single player experience, with other people sometimes in your way." Likewise social media games are more about nagging people to be your friend to get ahead in the game, than actually wanting any social interaction. This needs to stop. MMO games need to take two steps back and require polite social interaction to progress, not simply talk to generic NPC's to do generic quests and never have to party with a person except to take down the largest most powerful and time consuming monster.
But really, I believe that nobody is really a lost cause. Many people on the internet are not intellectually challenged enough on a day to day basis, and the price of boredom is to provoke others into fights... which predates civilization.
Everyone knows about Vincent van Gogh.
The truth of the matter is intelligence and creativity are linked to insanity,
If you were "Normal" you would have an IQ of 100 or less and be living in the same place you were born, and then make a small version of you who will do the same thing forever.
Chances are if you are reading this you were thought of as "weird' in High School, and probably live a few thousand miles from where you were born.
That is the price of having a good brain, you are NOT normal and you probably don't give a damn about the local high school football team like the "normal" people do who never moved more than 20 miles from the place they were born do.
... is increasingly used as a catch all term for people who don't fit into the social order and won't be good little obedient workers who obey the corporate line, the lack of autonomy and the shitty pay/jobs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q
all I wanted was a Pepsi!
If you are experiencing suicidal thoughts, consider increasing your intake of lithium, which is available over-the-counter. Statistics from Japan seem to indicate that it is effective. How much should you take? Unknown. Good luck.
If you are depressed, consider increasing your intake of tryptophan, along with niacin, to increase your production of serotonin. I've also heard that saffron and tea have some impact. Your diet in general should be carefully researched.
If you think that you drink too much alcohol, you abuse drugs, you gamble too much, or you steal without reason, ask your doctor for a prescription for naltrexone to quell your opioid receptors. Your physician should make this medication available to you with few restrictions after reading the relevant literature (the book by Eskapa lays out how to obtain and use it).
This is the best advice that I have. I wish that there was more, and it was better.
Hacking can require some pretty intense concentration. There is a severely negative effect to that kind of effort. We have all seen it. College students often become rather absurd about the sophomore year. Being sophomoric is not common in those that simply leave high school and do some sort of work. Essentially those that think deeply lose function in some portions of their brain so that those portions can be used for deep concentration and memory. Often there is an unpleasantness that goes along with this. It may be depression or anxiety or a real disconnect from being able to get along with others. Students resent this and are a bit aware of the trade offs that they are making in order to become well educated.
How many of us have not had a professor that was skilled but rather a whacko and outside of normal behavior or appearance?
Now imagine a hacker who never lets up on his concentration and efforts. Amplify that with pizza, too much coffee, maybe tobacco and chronic sleep deprivation and you end up with a hacker who is deeply troubled. Toss in some stimulants to allow him to push harder or some pot when he feels he must get relief and you have a potential full blown lunatic or corpse to deal with.
I got into computers precisely to get away from this psychological stuff.
I'm posting this as anonymous coward because I would rather not attract attention from people I know, not for fear of persecution.
Frankly, I have _always_ had a hard time with people. Family gatherings while growing up? I brought books, and completely avoided all of the other kids as much as possible. School? I read pertinent books or other educational material, and then excelled to the point where I didn't need assistance from anyone. College? I met a few people with similar interests to my own, and we did things together. Relationships? I find women attractive, but I'm not really an emotionally attached kind of person.
In retrospect, I thought about why I didn't maintain lasting friendships, and it's because I view people to be as replaceable as my shoes. I don't know how to do things with people for bonding purposes; I do things with people because some things are less enjoyable, or downright impossible alone. People aren't ends for me, they're just part of the environment, nothing more than occasions.
How does this fit into the mental health treatment? I know I'm abnormal in many ways, but I'm content this way. In the past, I sought treatment a couple of times, but I found nothing to pull me from being this way. Consciously and unconsciously, I don't want to change. How does a system of treatment deal with people like me? I'm no danger to anyone, unless you consider a sole dissident who is extremely productive and useful to be a threat to others' well-being. What ethical basis can anyone establish to justify pulling someone from their sandbox, and throwing them in the ocean with sharks?
You are wrong for putting yourself down. You seem to lack the skill to IGNORE the "uncomfortable truths" you've discovered. Instead, you make yourself vulnerable to their cuts. Nothing of value can be accomplished if you lack focus to do what you've set up to do.
Which brings naturally us to the next point: You seem to lack a life's goal, or personal achievable goals. This means you're in the same boat as every other complainer in the world. Instead of MAKING something yourself, you end up COMPLAINING, wasting your own energy and other's patience.
I could go on, but maybe you can pick it up from here. Best wishes to you and your dearest ones!
If I am wrong on some account, this is of course just a quick intuitive reading based on some internet text I saw you wrote. However don't dismiss it before having properly investigated it.
As the summary states:
"The evidence is only anecdotal". Yes. This. There are hundreds of thousands of hackers out there, and two suicides is suposed to show a trend? WTF. Teh stupid hurts.
There was a panel on depression in the geek community at HOPE #9. Link: http://www.hopenumbernine.net/schedule/#talks
One of the primary facets of my personality that I have noticed in my thirty-five years of life is that left to its own devices, my mind is very problem focused. It makes me a great IT resource because I am constantly aware of the short comings of the systems, the holes in the programs, the potential for failure. I make a very good living by proactively addressing the problems that I see. Before that, I made a decent living by being very good at troubleshooting.
As much of an asset as that mindset is in my career, it is a hindrance in my personal relationships. Very few people enjoy spending time with someone who is frequently focused on what is wrong with the world. It also carries over into my work relationships. As good as I may be at my job, there is a significant amount of risk of being the guy who is often in the position to say "I told you so." Nobody really likes that guy, no matter how right I might be.
One of the biggest helps for me has been Neuro Linguistic Programming. It is like an instruction manual for the mind. That, combined with some good philosophy (primarily Taoist and Buddhist), have given me the tools to find ways to be positive. I did not start figuring these things out until my mid twenties though, and I still work on them daily.
For the younger guys, the teenagers and the college kids who are multiple times more intelligent that I am, I can imagine the despair and hopelessness they might feel at times. I remember how much 9/11 bothered me, and all of the unanswered questions. I remember before that, 2600 meetings and Defcon and being really interested in computer security, then realizing how much society hates and fears people who "speak truth to power" by pointing out problems with the systems. I spent some time being disillusioned by the political process here in America.
My "solution" was to tune it out, and to focus on myself, my friends, family and loved ones. We all only have one life, and changing things like a political system or any major organization is often more than a single person can handle. We can make our own lives better though. We can improve our health, both physical and mental, and by doing that become an example to others who might be inclined to do the same. We can mentor others, both at work and in our personal lives.
The highly intelligent have the "curse" of often times being unable to let things go. Most of us have probably dealt with it at one time or another. Maybe it was a problem at work that we kept thinking about long after coming home. Maybe it was a conversation that we had with someone that did not go as we would have liked it to, and so we play over thousands of different variations in our head. When that mindset, that inability to let things go, gets wrapped up in some of the massive challenges that face our generation.... climate change, loss of civil liberties, economic collapse, 10+ years in Federal prison for publishing some free works... it can be overwhelming. It can be overwhelming because there is not an obvious way to change things. The deck is so stacked. There are so many interests vested in the current system and actively opposed to anyone trying to change it. When those forces collide with a "hacker mentality" and someone who "needs" to be in control of their own future and their environment, I can see how suicide happens.
Intelligence has loads to do with wisdom. The two are deeply interconnected, and in fact any meaningful definition of the two will clearly demonstrate this.
For example, if intelligence is the having of facts whereas wisdom is the making of good decisions, it is obvious that one needs facts (accurate ones) in order to make good decisions. Feel free to think up your own definitions (so long as they are based on how these words are typically used), and you will see the obvious relationship.
Intelligent Optimists are Hopelessly Depressed!
Film at 11.
I had a similar experience to the Vitamin D guy, but with Vitamin B6. I started taking a melatonin supplement to sleep better - the one I used also contained vitamin B6 (many of them do, since B6 is a precursor to serotonin which is a precursor to melatonin). My depression suddenly lifted. Obsessive negative thoughts suddenly vanished, and so forth. Then I later discovered that the melatonin wasn't necessary for the depression improvement, and that just increasing my vitamin B6 alone was enough to help with the depression. (Note that OCD is typically treated by increasing serotonin levels, so it makes sense that increasing B6 might have an impact.)
Also, beware of taking too much vitamin B6 -- in large quantities it will make your dreams so vivid that you'll have trouble sleeping.
I now take vitamin D supplements too, not for depression avoidance but because of all the recent literature about how much it helps with a variety of health problems, particularly for those like me who live in states where sunny, warm days are rare.
Probably due to the realization that comes with such knowledge and capability: how bloodthirsty, cutthroat, and insane the people really are who cause people to want to become freedom fighters and hackers in the first place. Add to that the realization of how much more you really need to know to keep just yourself as free as possible, and the realization that true freedom is impossible, and how much more powerless everyone else is without this knowledge.
Stop watching television and reading Slashdot.
If there's one thing media producers know, it's that the more depressing they make things, the more interest people take in them. Thus, the world, as seen via television, movies, music, and Slashdot, is quite depressing. This is particularly true with movies, as it's far easier to create a strong emotional response when it is sadness that you are trying to create rather than happiness.
There's only so long that you can expose yourself to this before your subconscious starts to believe this is actually how the world works. ...and when you consider that many "hackers" probably spend more time consuming media than interacting with people in real life, it's easy to see how they might end up more depressed than "normal" people.
I used to be quite depressed until I just stopped watching sad television and listening to sad music. It really makes a huge difference in how you feel. Indeed, after a few weeks, the depictions of things on television feel so ridiculous that in the rare moment you find yourself looking at a television screen, you find it absurd just how far the writers go to make everything so sad.
The simple fact is that, while bad things do happen in the world, you have to look at the scale. All the media reports on are sad events, and so you aren't exposed to the good. As the GP poster said, there is a lot more good than bad in the world. You just have to look in the right direction (away from the television) to see it.
So you want to know how to ignore the misery without hating yourself for being ignorant? Just stop trying to save the world, and instead, do only what everyone else should be doing: save your little corner of the world. You can help your family and your friends and your neighbors, but no matter how hard you try, you can't help anyone you see on television or read about on Slashdot. So stop watching television and reading Slashdot as they make you depressed about things you can't do anything about. If you're going to be depressed about something, it should at least be something near enough to you that you can do something about it.
Being social animals, I think we're drawn to sadness since, if it weren't on television, we'd be able to help out and make things right. For that reason, creating depressing entertainment and news is an easy way to attract viewers. However, we can't do anything, and so we just become depressed. We also learn to stand by and do nothing, and so when something happens in real life, you end up with a bunch of people standing around and just watching, because they've had thousands of experiences with tragedy but never once have they been able to do anything about it. They've been conditioned to stand back, watch, and enjoy it as much as they can. ...but, you can do something about it. Turn off the T.V.
Honestly, I can't stop ranting about how bad movie writers are. They don't just constantly aim to make sad movies, but they're not even any good at it. Just compare a movie like "Pay It Forward" which deserves an award for "most pointless death of a main character ever" to a movie like "Jack the Bear" which is likely the saddest movie you'll ever see and manages to find its way there without anyone dying (except maybe the bad guy, it never actually says what happens to him). Indeed, the saddest part of the movie is the end when everything is relatively OK. ...but they don't even have to write sad movies in order to create emotional movies. Just take "Holes" for (what is probably the only) example. Everything turns out wonderful in the end, yet you're nearly crying anyway. It's just harder to write that kind of movie, as evidenced by the fact that it's the only example I know to exist. So not only is most of the entertainment people expose themselves to unnecessarily depressing, but it's not even well-written.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01/21/engineers_cold_and_dead_inside/
"A study carried out by psychology researchers in Sweden has shown that people who go into engineering are less caring and empathetic than those who enter professions such as medicine."
Attributing the difference to "higher intelligence" or "clearer perception of reality" is just plain conceited. Medical doctors are, as a group, about as intelligent and about as scientifically minded, but their community works quite differently.
One thing that is very disturbing in this case and different than the beginnings of hacking culture is that more than ever hackers aren't given a chance. I use the term hacker loosely here- anyone caught up in exploiting systems with the use of technology. Conversely, many hackers aren't spinning this the right way. For example Kevin Mitnick did get a prison sentence but made a career of it. He did not go down this suicidal path. Many great talents in the past were 'discovered' hacking a system and given a real job. Well, not today we throw them away and throw away the key. Its a sad state of affairs my friends. More than Aaron being devastated over himself did anyone consider what he was really mourning was the death of a possible career and reputation he was trying to make for himself? It may have even worked if he stuck it out too- and that is what we have all lost the ability to do- just let good things happen if they will. This thought process is hard to envision within the 'disorganized control-freak' thought process of a hacker. I dare everyone to take their minds anyhow kicking and screaming if you will. A simple change like that, if fully realized on a massive level, could make the world a better place. Mahatma Gandhi definitely stuck it out and against all odds. Mother Theresa doubted the existence of god at times but continued on. If more hackers had this mindset more hackers would get the kind of recognition that they deserve- not as martyr but as saint.
It's just no covered by the mental health systems in most place, predominantly due to mandatory treatment being outlawed as a violation of civil rights.
When you hold someone involuntarily, it's limited to a 72 hour hold, and it take an extreme act by the person for that yo last beyond 72 hours - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5150_(Involuntary_psychiatric_hold) . The typical reaction is treat-and-turf (get them back on their medication in the 72 hour window, then throw them out), or worst case, extended to a 5250: a 14 day hold, with the same results, or a T-Con (Temporary Conservatorship or 5270, which is a 30 day hold), also with the same results. If that doesn't work out for the worst cases, a so-caled permanent conservatorship can be initiate, so called because it constitutes a 1 year hold. Most psychiatric treatment personnel won't ever go that far for fear of a lawsuit.
This originated with a cost reduction measure under Ronald Reagan, then governor of California, signed in 1967 and phasing into full effect in 1972: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanterman–Petris–Short_Act .This successful cost reduction measure was adopted by other states, modeled on the California law, and quickly gained adoption in most Blue states, particularly where there was a high homeless population of mentally ill persons self-medicating with alcohol, marijuana, and other substances, rather than getting real treatment.
In any case, it typically means no treatment for psychiatric disorders.
My mother was a psychiatric social worker in a red state (Weber County Mental Health in Ogden, Utah). It took them a long time to adopt these measures, and they continued to treat patients (they were euphemistically referred to as clients), but they finally did so in the late 1980's and phasing in through the early 1990's. The reason they adopted them was also cost cutting, but it was mostly driven by Colorado convincing their mentally ill persons to accept a one way bus ticket to Utah - which was Colorado addressed the problem.
Ironically, you could call Weber County Mental health, and report a person who was off their medication -- those on Lithium for Schizophrenia frequently decompensated on their medications when diet drinks came out, since Aspartame bonds to N-Dopamine receptors making the treatment less effective, and mentally ill persons frequently have accompanying body image issues which drives them to diet drinks -- and their case worker would show up and talk them in.
I tried this same things with Santa Clara County Mental Health in the last couple of years, and they were totally uninterested in a man outside a subway who was arguing with his voices. No dice. My options, according to the social worker, was to call the cops on the guy -- the last thing someone in that state needs -- and run them through police system to get him a 5150 to get his medication. Santa Clara County absolutely does not care about their mentally ill the way Weber County does.
Although Obama's Affordable Care Act gives better access to treatment options for mentally ill persons: http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2012/06/29/what-the-affordable-care-act-means-to-mental-health/ in actual practice, it's probably not going to matter if these people do not choose to avail themselves of treatment, and without reform of the laws governing mental illness treatment practices, it's most likely to remain a 72 hour hold, stabilization, and throwing them out after they have been on their medication long enough to ave their symptoms temporarily alleviated.
The end result is that it will likely not address the issue, and certainly without forced medication, it won't stop criminal gun violence or suicides, since as soon as they feel better, they're going off their medication again.
It is something that happens inside you, and causes you to feel bad. It has nothing to do with injustice, as far as I can tell.
On the other hand, if somebody is depressed already, they may be sensitized to injustice, hopeless quests, etc.
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company -- Mark Twain
Cod Liver oil, a multivitamin tab, B complex, and Piracetam + lots of water
That combo has changed my life.
Moe
SARAVA!
I used to believe stuff like that about vitamin D and minimal sun exposure of hands in the winter, which I was taught in grade school. It turns out to be wrong. You may want to do some more research on this topic before making such confident (and incorrect) pronouncements on this topic in the future. See for example: http://gizmodo.com/5823058/tanning-can-cause-cancer-but-not-tanning-could-cause-a-lot-worse
Or from:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2839537
"Sunlight has long been recognized as a major provider of vitamin D for humans; radiation in the UVB (290-315 nm) portion of the solar spectrum photolyzes 7-dehydrocholesterol in the skin to previtamin D3, which, in turn, is converted by a thermal process to vitamin D3. Latitude and season affect both the quantity and quality of solar radiation reaching the earth's surface, especially in the UVB region of the spectrum, but little is known about how these influence the ability of sunlight to synthesize vitamin D3 in skin. A model has been developed to evaluate the effect of seasonal and latitudinal changes on the potential of sunlight to initiate cutaneous production of vitamin D3. Human skin or [3 alpha-3H]7-dehydrocholesterol exposed to sunlight on cloudless days in Boston (42.2 degrees N) from November through February produced no previtamin D3. In Edmonton (52 degrees N) this ineffective winter period extended from October through March. Further south (34 degrees N and 18 degrees N), sunlight effectively photoconverted 7-dehydrocholesterol to previtamin D3 in the middle of winter. These results quantify the dramatic influence of changes in solar UVB radiation on cutaneous vitamin D3 synthesis and indicate the latitudinal increase in the length of the "vitamin D winter" during which dietary supplementation of the vitamin may be advisable."
A fair-skinned person in a skimpy bathing suit under noon-day near-equatorial summer sun can produce on the order of 20,000 IU vitamin D (which self-limits in the skin when from UV) in about twenty minutes. A dark-skinned person will take a couple of hours to reach that level under those conditions. As the above paper suggests, in winter father from the equator, your skin will produce essentially no vitamin D. Reference:
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/about-us/our-staff0/john-j-cannell-md/
Given the above, the US RDA of about 600 IU D3 per day for an adult of any size is just bad medicine, as is setting a tolerable upper limit of 4000 IU D3 daily (when that "limit" is closer to what the avergae adult needs). That is why you won't get enough vitamin D from food, because the RDA is about 10X too low for most people. A better recommendation:
http://www.grassrootshealth.net/recommendation
With our increasing indoors lifestyle, people became more and more vitamin D deficient -- even living in sunny places like Arizona or Texas. That was made worse by the fear mongering by the dermatology profession (with dermatologists as whole causing on the order of 10X the cancer they prevented plus a host of other health issues like autism with their well-meant but terrible advice).
Studies have shown a link between nutrition and depression. See, as one example:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2738337/
"Few people are aware of the connection between nutrition and depression while they easily understand the connection between nutritional deficiencies and physical illness. Depression is more typically thought of as strictly biochemical-based or emotionally-rooted. On the contrary, nutrition can play a key role in the onset as well as severity and duration of depression. Many of the easily noticeable food patterns that p
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
"Now if I could just get off my fat ass and exercise to fix the rest of me..."
http://www.squidoo.com/walkingwhileworking
I've been using a DIY treadmill workstation for about five years. I agree about the value of vitamin D. I think having a treadmill workstation contributed to vitamin D deficiency because with it I would then spend less time exercising outdoors.
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2738337/
Look into books by Dr. Andrew Weil and Dr. Joel Fuhrman.
See also a list of other stuff I put together on health and happiness: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2738337/
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Related by me: http://www.changemakers.com/discussions/discussion-493#comment-38823
http://www.pdfernhout.net/reading-between-the-lines.html
By others:
http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/natural_depression.aspx
http://www.anwot.org/
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1108-21.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2738337/
http://www.fatsickandnearlydead.com/
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Watch out for too much vitamin A from cod liver oil...
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2008/12/23/important-cod-liver-oil-update.aspx
Best to get vitamin A from vegetables like carrots or carrot juice.
See also: http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/natural_depression.aspx
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
"The unfortunate fact is that there's no way to fix depression."
Nutrition can help oftentimes: http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/natural_depression.aspx
See also on optimism:
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1108-21.htm
"In this awful world where the efforts of caring people often pale in comparison to what is done by those who have power, how do I manage to stay involved and seemingly happy? I am totally confident not that the world will get better, but that we should not give up the game before all the cards have been played. The metaphor is deliberate; life is a gamble. Not to play is to foreclose any chance of winning.
To play, to act, is to create at least a possibility of changing the world. There is a tendency to think that what we see in the present moment will continue. We forget how often we have been astonished by the sudden crumbling of institutions, by extraordinary changes in people's thoughts, by unexpected eruptions of rebellion against tyrannies, by the quick collapse of systems of power that seemed invincible. What leaps out from the history of the past hundred years is its utter unpredictability. This confounds us, because we are talking about exactly the period when human beings became so ingenious technologically that they could plan and predict the exact time of someone landing on the moon, or walk down the street talking to someone halfway around the earth."
More health advice:
http://www.changemakers.com/discussions/discussion-493#comment-38823
Ideas towards building a better world:
http://www.pdfernhout.net/reading-between-the-lines.html
http://www.pdfernhout.net/on-dealing-with-social-hurricanes.html
http://www.pdfernhout.net/beyond-a-jobless-recovery-knol.html
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
"Although Obama's Affordable Care Act gives better access to treatment options for mentally ill persons: ..."
Things like nutrition, positive psychology, physical infrastructure, life opportunities, community and so on can make a huge difference in mental health. But they are not generally covered as treatments by insurance. Similarly, health insurance may pay $100K for a heart operation, but it won't pay a penny towards the healthy food needed to stay physically and mentally well.
http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/natural_depression.aspx
http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/PCI_angioplasty_article.aspx
Worse -- junk food is heavily subsidized:
http://www.seriouseats.com/2007/11/the-subsidized-food-pyramid.html
And for decades bad nutritional advice like "the four food groups" has been enshrined in public education by regulatory capture and clever marketing by agribusiness.
Contrast with a model like "Blue Zones":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone
Or what Dr. Andrew Weil writes about in his book "Why Our Health Matters".
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Terrific point about separating an appraisal of the world from general moods.
And after all, some people even like tough challenges:
http://www.papert.org/articles/HardFun.html
As I quote here from "What Dreams May Come":
http://www.pdfernhout.net/reading-between-the-lines.html
===
"This is their composite mental image?" I asked. Soundless; hueless; lifeless.
"It is," he said.
"And you work here?" I felt stunned that anyone who had the choice would elect to work in this forbidding place.
"This is nothing," was all he said.
===
Howard Zinn also suggested there is always reason for the "optimism of uncertainty": http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1108-21.htm
I agree about the bringing nutrition/lifestyle stuff all together synergistically:
http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/natural_depression.aspx
http://www.changemakers.com/discussions/discussion-493#comment-38823
Also maybe of interest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_approaches_to_depression
And:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/12/the-science-of-success/307761/
"Most of us have genes that make us as hardy as dandelions: able to take root and survive almost anywhere. A few of us, however, are more like the orchid: fragile and fickle, but capable of blooming spectacularly if given greenhouse care. So holds a provocative new theory of genetics, which asserts that the very genes that give us the most trouble as a species, causing behaviors that are self-destructive and antisocial, also underlie humankind's phenomenal adaptability and evolutionary success. With a bad environment and poor parenting, orchid children can end up depressed, drug-addicted, or in jail -- but with the right environment and good parenting, they can grow up to be society's most creative, successful, and happy people."
While Shirky's post has some great insights, I actually disagree with a sentiment implied where he says: "Most of us won't kill ourselves, no matter how bad things get. ... Madoff hasn't killed himself because he isn't the kind of person who kills himself." While perhaps true, it is misleading. I'd suggest depression and suicide could happen in almost anyone's life probabilistically, but that certain circumstances make it more or less likely. Then, if it does, the survivors tend to work backwards from "if only" proximate causes, but overall it is always a network of interacting causes and effects. Genes are one thing affecting probabilities, but so is nutrition, lifestyle, mental outlook, mental habits including gratitude, religions and spiritual upbringing or life philosophy, social networks, physical infrastructure, and many other factors (including what we think about the world) which interact with each other. Or, in other words, a life is like a tree, and whether that tree is blown over by any particular storm in life is about both how big the (perceived) storm is and how deep the tree's roots are (and roots help us grow more roots). For a person, roots are things like nutrition, family, friends, hobbies, community, music, values, habits, religion/philosophy, and so on. See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_psychology
Thanks for the success story of personal growth to grow deeper roots in various ways. Good luck in continuing to grow them as best as is possible in this plane of existence filled with various dualistic tensions, with life at a Yin/Yang interface of
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
You're right, people can make a big difference in small ways, and together that can add up to a lot. Plus, every small change gives us more experience, confidence, and resources to use in working towards larger things.
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
"Try going 72 hours without food. You'll be amazed how *real* discomfort can focus the mind."
For some people, if you do it right:
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1137654
http://schizophreniabulletin.oxfordjournals.org/content/3/2/288.full.pdf
http://www.fastingconnection.com/forum/General-posts-to-Index/1184-fasting-and-bipolar-disorder
See Dr. Joel Fuhrman's work for how to fast correctly.
http://www.amazon.com/Fasting-Eating-Health-Medical-Conquering/dp/031218719X
Although ultimately people have to eat right:
http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/natural_depression.aspx
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
See my other posts, but in short: http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/natural_depression.aspx
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Soon he'll realize that some problems can't be fixed...
but it may require another year or two of brewing.
Explained in detail with many refs: http://www.drfuhrman.com/shop/ETLBook.aspx
Dr. Joel Fuhrman, MD, talks about the political history of how the meat and dairy industry got this information into schools in one chapter. But, here are some key points if you are probably not going to read that right away.
First, here is some general history of changing guidelines (you can see the pre-1956 guidelines we more diverse):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_USDA_nutrition_guides
"From 1956 until 1992 the United States Department of Agriculture recommended its "Basic Four" food groups."
Those four food groups were: "Milk", "Meat", "Cereals and breads", and "Vegetables and fruits". They were usually displayed in roughly equal physically-sized portions. Beans were technically included in the "meat" group, but in practice are fairly ignorable by most people in that model (including how it was typically drawn). Because of differing calorie density (fruits and vegetables having few calories per unit volume because of fiber), this meant 90% or more of your calories when eating by the four food groups would be from animal products and (usually) refined grains in bread. As described in "Eat to Live", humans are adapted to get most of their calories from fruits, vegetables, and beans (plus some nuts, seed, and whole grains). The "basic four" effectively inverts this concept, meaning your diet will have almost no essential phytonutrients.
You also need phytonutrients to grow well and for your immune system to resist cancer and other disease.
http://www.peertrainer.com/health/dr_joel_fuhrman_super_immunity_book.aspx
It is true a case can be made for some animal products in the diet (especially for omega-3 fats, and for iodine unless you eat sea vegetables, and for some other reasons). People can argue about the role of fish-eating in recent human development perhaps, even though fish today may be polluted with mercury and PCBs. I'm not saying I agree 100% with Fuhrman about every detail, but he sketches out well the big picture.
It is harder to make the case for having any refined grains and refined sugar in the diet (meaning refined flour and sugar, as opposed to whole grains). That is because refined grains and refined sugar spike insulin levels and cause inflammation (the small particles are rapidly digested). Fuhrman also suggests not eating much unrefined grains (like brown rice) although others like Dr. McDougall may disagree from a convenience perspective:
http://www.lanimuelrath.com/diet-nutrition/mcdougall-vs-fuhrman-notes-for-you-from-the-great-plant-based-doctors-debate/
So, basically, the four food groups is a prescription for disease -- specially heart disease and stroke, cancer, and diabetes, which are the main "diseases of affluence" that kill most US Americans now but were very rare 100 years ago. Ideally, you should get 90% of your calories from fruits, vegetables, and beans (and some nuts, seeds, and whole grains) and use animal products as side dishes, flavorings, or binders in recipes. As Dr. Fuhrman says in Eat To Live, we have not yet seen what modern medicine could do to extend the lives of people who ate in a healthy way.
Note also that most of the world tend to be lactose intolerant. Thus emphasizing milk also destroys many people's health, especially that of many minority children in the USA who will then suffer from continual stomach distress and worse. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance
More on the problems of milk for most people:
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.