Piriform Asks BleachBit To Remove Winapp2.ini Importer

Who knows, I'm not a lawyer... by Frosty+Piss · 2013-02-04 17:03 · Score: 4, Informative

Do I need a lawyer? What is a good response to avoid any ugly situation?

And once again for the 1,000,000 time, yes, and this isn't the place to get legal advice...

On the other hand, a "firm request" doesn't quite sound like a legal threat. Anyone can send a "firm request".

Maybe check it with a REAL lawyer, but not worry too much until the people you've collided with send you a letter with more solid threats?

Who knows, I'm not a lawyer...

--
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.

Re:Who knows, I'm not a lawyer... by Art+Challenor · 2013-02-04 17:11 · Score: 5, Insightful

And once again for the 1,000,000 time, yes, and this isn't the place to get legal advice...
True, but there's really any advice that you should ask for from ./er's? How to meet members of the opposite sex? Which Linux distro to use? Whether Metro is better than Unity?

Once you get it in perspective, the question makes as much sense as any other.
Re:Who knows, I'm not a lawyer... by Frosty+Piss · 2013-02-04 17:15 · Score: 4, Funny

True, but there's really any advice that you should ask for from ./er's? How to meet members of the opposite sex?

Last time I followed advice from Slashdot on the chicks, I got a visit from the Sheriff's Department.

--
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Re:Who knows, I'm not a lawyer... by Phrogman · 2013-02-04 17:21 · Score: 5, Funny

Basement dwelling tips, thats probably safe. Best Pizza outfits, also a good bet.

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"The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
Re:Who knows, I'm not a lawyer... by arth1 · 2013-02-04 17:39 · Score: 4, Funny

Last time I followed advice from Slashdot on the chicks, I got a visit from the Sheriff's Department.
Oooh, a sexy chick in uniform! Tell us how that went!
Re:Who knows, I'm not a lawyer... by Frosty+Piss · 2013-02-04 17:47 · Score: 5, Funny

Oooh, a sexy chick in uniform! Tell us how that went!
I think she might have been into the "bondage" thing, because she cuffed me.

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If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Re:Who knows, I'm not a lawyer... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-02-04 18:21 · Score: 5, Funny

Did she cuff you before or after you put on your robe and wizard hat?
Re:Who knows, I'm not a lawyer... by hawkinspeter · 2013-02-04 20:22 · Score: 4, Insightful

Surely the ToS relates to using CCleaner which is totally irrelevant as he's not using their software. I don't see how copyright comes into play if he's not distributing the ini file and as far as I can tell, the purpose of importing the file is for user generated rules.

The only thing that I can see that could apply would be if CCleaner has patented the ini text format, but that would be absurd and I can't see that standing up in court.

A simple letter stating that he doesn't use the CCleaner software and that the ToS are irrelevant to him should suffice. Let them come back with lawyers and see how much money they want to waste.

--
You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
Re:Who knows, I'm not a lawyer... by VortexCortex · 2013-02-04 20:23 · Score: 5, Interesting

I think he should read the TOS first and get a feel for the situation.
Why would he need to read their ToS to know if he can include a feature that imports an unencrypted text file?
It's not just any text file... Why it's a specially crafted .INI / .CONF formatted text file.
Who knows, I'm sure if I hired a patent attorney they could write up patent claims vague enough and using terms obscure enough that a patent clerk wouldn't find any relevant hits in the patent database, so there's really no reason to assume that the INI file format isn't pattented... but if it's not, then they can piss right off.
He's not re-distributing their files, so he's not infringing copyright. The name winapp2.ini is too generic to be a strong trademark, except maybe to Microsoft over Windows (tm).
I wouldn't worry about shit. In fact, I wouldn't have even acknowledged that I received a notice of any kind.
Protip: In the future if you want to incorporate a 3rd party's data format, implement a plugin system and API for importing the generic data to isolate the main application from the import functionality. Distribute the plugin that implements the import feature separately, it can download after install at the behest of the user. Defer all complaints about plugin functionality to the "owner" of the plugin -- A different entity than the one that holds the rights for the main application. I call that a firewall.
I suppose INI itself may be so generic as to not really qualify as supporting another program's data format, but even so it would be pretty simple to make a .INI translator program that simply search and replaced the [SECTION] tags with differently named tags, and distribute a converter that converts their format into your format prior to import. I really wish SCOTUS would do something about data formats: No one should be able to assert rights over something ilke .WAD, .JAR, .INI, CSV, XML ugh, Microsoft was sued over using XML.. So, I think the only way to achieve that is to say all file formats are public domain. Good luck with that.
Then again, IANAL. However, I've been through this shit several times. There's nothing you can actually do at all to avoid being sued. Anyone can sue for fucking anything, why worry about it? Oh No! A million people could sue me tomorrow! No problems folks, I'm incorporated. That would be the sixth time I close up shop and re-open the next day as a different corporate entity, I'm exceedingly efficient at it. Hell, get your own incorporation today, even if you're not going to run a business! Just pay your corporate dues and file your taxes, and you can sell them off for a decent profit to bigger corporations that need a few shell corps to do some dirty work under -- And on paper can be "In good standing since $INCORPORATION_DATE." Yep, brand now company buys an LLC shell to operate under and adopts its good standing credit, and incorporation date.
So, bottom line: Are you incorporated or operating as a 501c3 charity? If so, fuck em till you get sued, then fuck-em some more. Your code is open source, and you're protected by the corporate veil: Be Prepared to Reboot in case you have to "turn it off and on again". If there's no insulating imaginary person-hood in place, then get yourself that way ASAP, and get a damn lawyer. There's free "pro bono" advice to be had, esp. for non-profits, but Slashdot isn't the place to ask for it.
Re:Who knows, I'm not a lawyer... by _KiTA_ · 2013-02-04 20:52 · Score: 5, Insightful

And once again for the 1,000,000 time, yes, and this isn't the place to get legal advice...
True, but there's really any advice that you should ask for from ./er's? How to meet members of the opposite sex? Which Linux distro to use? Whether Metro is better than Unity?
Once you get it in perspective, the question makes as much sense as any other.
Except this wasn't even a request for advice. This was a thinly veiled attempt to invoke the Streisand Effect.
Re:Who knows, I'm not a lawyer... by KitFox · 2013-02-04 23:20 · Score: 5, Interesting

Maybe I'm missing something here, but....
Group 1 makes a third-party add-on that works with Company A's and Company B's product. Neither company controls Group 1.
Company A is not using anything at all from Company B, but makes use of Group 1's items.
Company B is telling Company A to remove the feature of using Group 1's items because it violates ToS.
So either Company B's person somehow thinks that the Company A product violates B's ToS (which is not in effect, since B is not in use at all and the interaction is with a third party), or B thinks that A's implementation violates Group 1's ToS and is giving a "courtesy" alert. If the former, then a simple response pointing out that A's product and feature does not utilize anything under the control of Company B and thus Company A is not subject to B's Terms of Service since B is not providing any services to A would suffice. If the latter, then check the ToS of Group 1 and remedy if the allegations are correct.
I suspect that somebody (Louise) saw the words "CCleaner's Winapp2.ini files" in the ghacks article that implies (apparently incorrectly) that the files are created by and owned by Piriform, so assumed that her company owns them and nobody else is allowed to use them. Instead the case looks to be that "Group 1" creates and owns them and her company USES them, so her company's ToS does not apply to the use of a third party item they don't own or control.

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@Whee

IANAL by Anonymous Coward · 2013-02-04 17:07 · Score: 5, Informative

I am not a lawyer nor your lawyer, but I would just ignore the e-mail. Don't answer, just ignore it. Importing a text file has nothing to do with their ToS. This is not a legal advice.

Re:IANAL by Garridan · 2013-02-04 17:56 · Score: 5, Informative

Yeah -- unless you're using their software, you can't violate their TOS.
Re:IANAL by ganjadude · 2013-02-04 18:46 · Score: 5, Funny

I put out a CD ripping program years ago (not gonna link it because its dated and useless by todays standards) but in the ToS, I wrote that I was given the right to each users first born child as well as hand jobs from any male users girlfriend... I dont think that would hold up in court if i pushed it, but it WAS in my programs ToS

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Re:IANAL by hawkinspeter · 2013-02-04 20:24 · Score: 5, Funny

I am a lawyer and I'm your lawyer. Just ignore the e-mail. This is legal advice.

--
You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe

Backfire by J'raxis · 2013-02-04 17:09 · Score: 5, Interesting

I've been using CCleaner on the few Windows boxes I maintain for a while now. I'd never heard of BleachBit. It looks like it does a lot more than CCleaner, and especially in light of Piriform's obnoxious legal theats, I think I'll switch to BleachBit.

Thanks, Piriform!

--
Liberty in your lifetime

Other software does the same thing... by Excelcia · 2013-02-04 17:13 · Score: 5, Insightful

This would be like Microsoft asking OpenOffice not to import Word format. Or, for a closer analogy, for them to ask Mozilla not to have Firefox import IE bookmarks when you install it. This type of thing is done all the time. Unless they claim to have a patent on the format in the .ini file, it's totally fair game.

He wasn't asking for a legal advice by Taco+Cowboy · 2013-02-04 17:18 · Score: 4, Informative

And once again for the 1,000,000 time, yes, and this isn't the place to get legal advice...

Lemme quote that guy had stated:

Does Piriform's request have merit?

Do I need a lawyer?

What is a good response to avoid any ugly situation?

Of the three quoted questions above, "Do I need a lawyer?" comes closest in resembling a "legal advice", but it ain't.

The gist of what poster "ahziem" was looking for is "What is a good response to avoid any ugly situation?" - that is, how should one go about under that situation.

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Re:He wasn't asking for a legal advice by Anonymous Coward · 2013-02-04 18:25 · Score: 5, Funny

"Do I need a lawyer?" is a question that only a qualified lawyer such as myself can answer.
Let's call that a half hour.
Re:He wasn't asking for a legal advice by AmiMoJo · 2013-02-04 20:34 · Score: 4, Insightful

The questioner doesn't say where he is based, which makes a big difference. In Europe this kind of compatibility is specifically permitted by the law, so there really is nothing Piriform can do.
A polite "no" might be a good place to start, and then see what their response is. Ask them to explain why they want it removed and what basis they have for asking.

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Re:What are these CCleaner files? by 1u3hr · 2013-02-04 17:21 · Score: 5, Informative

They're not "CCLeaner files". Winapp 2 is made by a 3rd party See theior site:

http://www.winapp2.com/ "This website and its files are not endorsed or supported in any way by Piriform. They take no responsibility for any damages or problems that arise from its use.",

Looks like Piriform has sent similar messages to them.

Pretty clueless by SilenceBE · 2013-02-04 17:26 · Score: 4, Interesting

It sometimes baffles me how clueless some people are working in IT as "manager". Since when aren't you allowed to write an importer for an ini file that is publicly availabe. That ini file wasn't even written by piriform.

I think this is a case of a manger that wants to get good points from the upperhand, not knowing how ridiculous her/his requests are.

What's the problem? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-02-04 17:29 · Score: 4, Interesting

It seems that piriform is all worked up about an article that implies that BleachBit is importing CCleaner's data, this article in fact. However, the article does not say anywhere that the data is coming from CCleaner, it says the data is coming from Winapp2. Note that Winapp2 specifically states that they are not affiliated with Piriform!

In other words, it looks like Piriform is saying "You can read the same file format that we can read and we demand that you stop reading it", despite the fact that Piriform has no claim to the files in question.

gist by shentino · 2013-02-04 17:29 · Score: 4, Interesting

Basically their message is as follows:

"You're pissing us off by having a feature that competes with us, and we have an army of lawyers to throw at you if you don't back down."

This is blatant intimidation.

Ignore them. by macraig · 2013-02-04 17:29 · Score: 4, Insightful

Why should you be frightened of a violation of their TOS? Have you or your software agreed to be bound by those terms at any point? No? Well then, why the fuck are they threatening you? Answer: because it's easier than threatening their own customers who might actually be violating those TOS, since threatening them will create a Streisand Effect and have them leaving in droves for good.

You might have another TheOatmeal-versus-FunnyJunk moment here.

Get a lawyer by steelfood · 2013-02-04 17:30 · Score: 4, Informative

Sounds like winapp2 is an independently-developed "application" that Piriform does not own. If you wrote your own libraries to parse the file, then they'll have trouble successfully suing you. But that doesn't mean they won't sue. If you're using their libraries, then best ditch it and rewrite that piece yourself.

In either case, you need a lawyer. Let the lawyer respond.

--
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."

He DOESN'T need a lawyer by Anonymous Coward · 2013-02-04 17:35 · Score: 5, Interesting

It's not a legal request and the company has simply asked him to remove the feature. He simply declines, he is under no such obligation.

Here, I'll even craft the letter for him:

Dear Louise,
We are under no legal obligation to remove that feature and we therefore decline. If you believe there is a legal basis then please get your lawyer to outline your claim in more concrete terms.

Yours,...

Don't waste your money. There's nothing here.

Re:He DOESN'T need a lawyer by dcollins · 2013-02-04 19:44 · Score: 5, Insightful

Why bother responding? Why bother letting them know that you're listening to and giving consideration to their threats? Why bother making a paper trail of any kind?
If I had a lawyer on staff twiddling his thumbs, then I'd have him one-up the situation and write a "shut up and don't bother us" letter; but otherwise, I'd just dodge that shit entirely and remain silent.

--
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Read their complaint again by 3count · 2013-02-04 18:17 · Score: 4, Insightful

> Does Piriform's request have merit?
Did you read the article they are complaining about? It reads like a how-to to rip off Pirform's data. The subtlety of winapp vs. winapp2 may have gotten lost somewhere. But statements like "The Open Source disk cleaner Bleachbit takes advantage of this as it can import all of CCleaner’s cleaning locations." sounds like a real problem.

Is this a poorly worded article or is the author suggesting taking Pirform’s proprietary data? Does your organization support/encourage people to take Pirform’s proprietary data for use in BleachBit?

The winapp2.com site seems to list a data file from Pirform, not the community. This may not be your responsibility, but it certainly puts the whole community into question. How closely aligned are you with that community?

> What is a good response to avoid any ugly situation?"
I would expect you to be an expert in these tools, this market, and the winapp2 community. The fact that you are asking us these questions suggests you are not. Do you support the article? Do you support the use of anything proprietary to be used by BleachBit? Does the winapp2 community support anything inappropriate with Pirform's data? You should take a position on all of these items. Even if what you are doing is technically legal, how you present yourself can attract unnecessary trouble.

> Do I need a lawyer?
Who knows. So the only safe answer is "Yes". But, this is as much of an image issue as it is a legal issue. You might need a marketing person to explain this as much as a lawyer.

Re:Read their complaint again by BobTheLawyer · 2013-02-04 23:08 · Score: 4, Informative

I am a lawyer. The previous post is wrong - the usual rules of copyright apply whether or not you've accepted terms of service.
Piriform's objection is not very clearly stated, but there is a problem if the Bleachbit developer is encouraging people to import winapp.ini - the information in it is copyrighted and this is likely an unlicensed use. It would be prudent for Bleachbit to tell people not to use its import functionality to import Piriform's original winapp.ini, and better still if the software rejects attempts to do this.
Whether importing third party (non-Piriform) rules is acceptable depends upon the terms on which those rules are made available. If they're posted in a forum whose rules provide the files can be used only in Piriform products then Piriform has an arguable case (that Bleachbit is procuring a breach of contract/copyright) but that's a more difficult argument for Piriform to make, as they have to show the terms of the contract/copyright license are effective.
Bob
Re:Read their complaint again by faedle · 2013-02-05 02:11 · Score: 4, Insightful

Wow, you're a crappy lawyer.

Re:You don't distribute the ini file, correct? by Pseudonym+Authority · 2013-02-04 18:40 · Score: 5, Informative

winapp2.ini is not property of Piriform. It is a separate project by other people and even notes the compatibility with BleachBit as a feature. Piriform is just being a bunch of assholes. Fuck them.

IAAL by Anonymous Coward · 2013-02-04 19:25 · Score: 4, Informative

I am not a lawyer nor your lawyer, but I would just ignore the e-mail. Don't answer, just ignore it.

IAAL (not practising) and a developer and this comes closest to what I know I ought to do in this situation. Don't communicate until such time as a formal legal request is made and then communicate only as per legal advice.

Personally I would be fighting with myself really hard to stop replying (aka giving them evidence)... however I wouldn't dream of representing myself (not even if I were practising).

At this stage I would save myself the $$$ and just wait to see if they escalate the matter. I'm in no position to assess the legal liabilities in your particular situation. Nor should you accept the analysis or assurances of anyone commenting here. It may be they have no case, in which case their lawyer should tell them to wear it. At least in my jurisdiction a lawyer can face disciplinary proceedings for initiating action without "reasonable chance of success," and threatening legal action where no legal basis exists is a huge no-no (for lawyers that is). That may be different where you or Piriform are.

If a formal legal letter threatening action (a lawyer is of course free to ask you to stop doing something on behalf of a client ... "pretty please ...") were received I would take legal advice in quick order.

This is not a legal advice.

Nor, it should go without saying, is this. It's just what I would do. If it makes you sleep better at night and you have cash to splash about you may want to get your legal team to take these jokers apart starting tomorrow.

Data/Fact is not copyrightable by erroneus · 2013-02-04 19:44 · Score: 4, Informative

This has been established over and over and over again in case law. Phone books, statistics and lists are not eligible for the type of legal protection being sought.

Information is being made available by the public to the public. Part of that public includes a commercial entity. There is no case here as far as I can see.

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Piriform Asks BleachBit To Remove Winapp2.ini Importer

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