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Researchers Opt To Limit Uses of Open-access Publications

ananyo writes "How open do researchers want open-access papers to be? Apparently, not that open — when given a choice of licenses, most opt to limit the use of data and words in their open-access publications, according to figures released by the open-access journal Scientific Reports. Since July 2012 the journal has been offering researchers a choice of three types of license. The first, most liberal license, CC-BY, allows anyone, even commercial organizations, to re-use it. A more restrictive version, CC-BY-NC-SA, lets others remix, tweak and build on work if they give credit to the original author, but only for non-commercial (NC) purposes, and only if they license what they produce under the same terms (SA, or 'share-alike'). A third licence, CC-BY-NC-ND, is the most restrictive, allowing others to download and share work, but not to change it in any way (ND, 'no derivative works'), or use it commercially. The results from Scientific Reports shows that, for the 685 papers accepted by the journal, authors chose either of the more restrictive licences 95% of the time — and the most restrictive, CC-BY-NC-ND, 68% of the time."

110 of 172 comments (clear)

  1. Researchers don't care about open access by stranger_to_himself · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    Researchers don't generally care about their papers being open access or not. They use open access journals because they are easy to get published in (they are mostly 'author pays' publications with very low standards) or because their funder mandates it.

    1. Re:Researchers don't care about open access by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      For genuine science, one should use reputable commercial publishers and journals such as "Chaos Solitons and Fractals" and the "Australasian Journals of Bone and Joint Medicine" both published by Elsevier.

    2. Re:Researchers don't care about open access by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I would disagree with the statement that open-access journals are somehow cheaper or of lower quality. Nature and PLoS both have open access journals in which the quality of research must be fairly rigorous. As well, both of these publications are more expensive to publish in, precisely because there is no print-ad revenue to offset the cost of the publication. I think that researchers do care about open access, whether or not their funding agencies mandate open-access (as an aside, if tax dollars funded the research, it should be accessible to the general public). The difficulty of a a completely open license, such as CC-BY, would allow commercial entities to profit from their work without means of recognition or attribution, as well as the potential to steal, or misrepresent, their intellectual ideas. As a result, I'm not surprised that researchers opt for "more restrictive" licensing, which is meant to ensure that they are properly cited. After all, our best metrics are our open publication record and citation factors.

    3. Re:Researchers don't care about open access by blind+biker · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Researchers don't generally care about their papers being open access or not. They use open access journals because they are easy to get published in (they are mostly 'author pays' publications with very low standards) or because their funder mandates it.

      Not true at all. Most researchers (I would say it's a large majority) prefer open-access because of the better exposure of their work, and because of an innate desire to share their science with everybody. There are scientists with views differing from this, but they are, as far as I could see (and I, as a researcher that travels a lot to conferences and does research abroad often, have met a huge number of my colleagues) a small minority.

      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    4. Re:Researchers don't care about open access by niftydude · · Score: 4, Informative

      Researchers don't generally care about their papers being open access or not.

      I'd like to use open access journals, but there are two things stopping me. Other people's money and my money.

      1) Other people's money: Most open access journals I've come across in my field charge >$1000 to let you publish in them (as opposed to traditional journals which generally charge nothing). This is pretty much not an option in the current cash-strapped academic environment, funding bodies don't like to see their money spent on things like this, they want to pay for research.

      2) My money: Most open access journals are newish, and so have a lower impact factor than traditional journals. The university I do work for remunerates researchers based on a sliding scale based on the impact factor of the journals they publish in, so publishing an article in a lower impact factor journal results in substantially less take-home pay for me.

      All things being equal, I would certainly lean towards using open access journals, simply because I prefer my work to get as much exposure as possible, but all things are not equal.

      --
      You can never know everything, and part of what you do know will always be wrong. Perhaps even the most important part.
    5. Re:Researchers don't care about open access by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      1) Other people's money: Most open access journals I've come across in my field charge >$1000 to let you publish in them (as opposed to traditional journals which generally charge nothing). This is pretty much not an option in the current cash-strapped academic environment, funding bodies don't like to see their money spent on things like this, they want to pay for research.

      I don't know about other funding bodies but every project funded by the EU framework program I've been involved with had a budget for dissemination which covers things like conferences, exhibitions and publication of papers and books.

    6. Re:Researchers don't care about open access by paiute · · Score: 5, Informative

      Not true at all. Most researchers (I would say it's a large majority) prefer open-access because of the better exposure of their work, and because of an innate desire to share their science with everybody. There are scientists with views differing from this, but they are, as far as I could see (and I, as a researcher that travels a lot to conferences and does research abroad often, have met a huge number of my colleagues) a small minority.

      Not always true in my experience. One's enthusiasm for open access scientific publishing changes radically depending on whether you are publishing a paper or trying to access a paper. If you are publishing a paper then you want to have it in the most prestigious vehicle you can get into. It looks better on the CV come tenure or job interview time. For chemistry, say, you want to publish in JACS or JOC. But if I am reading the literature then I curse the bastards who published in JACS and JOC because I might not have free access to those journals.

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    7. Re:Researchers don't care about open access by codegen · · Score: 1

      Depends on the area. In some areas like astronomy, page charges are normal and the funding bodies allow budget lines. Other areas page charges are not normal and funding agencies question budget lines for page charges.

      --
      Atlas stands on the earth and carries the celestial sphere on his shoulders.
    8. Re:Researchers don't care about open access by stranger_to_himself · · Score: 2

      1) Other people's money: Most open access journals I've come across in my field charge >$1000 to let you publish in them (as opposed to traditional journals which generally charge nothing). This is pretty much not an option in the current cash-strapped academic environment, funding bodies don't like to see their money spent on things like this, they want to pay for research.

      I don't know about other funding bodies but every project funded by the EU framework program I've been involved with had a budget for dissemination which covers things like conferences, exhibitions and publication of papers and books.

      Most charity funders refuse to pay these - also the Medical Research Council as of this year stopped people putting open access fees explicitly into budgets (even though they mandate open access). The universities have to find the money themselves.

    9. Re:Researchers don't care about open access by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      True, but prestige and open-access are not mutually exclusive. The open-access journals just need to get a reputation for rigorous vetting to gain the prestige, just like a normal journal. The only trouble is that open-access journals are new and haven't had time to gain the respect they need.

    10. Re:Researchers don't care about open access by bunratty · · Score: 1

      I'm a graduate student in computer science. Nearly every paper I want to see is available for free, generally hosted on one of the authors' sites. When I ask authors for slides because I want to present their paper, they generally make them available for free. It seems to me that researchers want their papers read, presented, and discussed, and if making the papers freely available will accomplish that goal, they'll do it.

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    11. Re:Researchers don't care about open access by blind+biker · · Score: 1

      Not always true in my experience. One's enthusiasm for open access scientific publishing changes radically depending on whether you are publishing a paper or trying to access a paper. If you are publishing a paper then you want to have it in the most prestigious vehicle you can get into. It looks better on the CV come tenure or job interview time. For chemistry, say, you want to publish in JACS or JOC. But if I am reading the literature then I curse the bastards who published in JACS and JOC because I might not have free access to those journals.

      You are misreading/misinterpreting the point I was trying to make (which may be also my fault). To answer you, I'll just quote another post in this very thread:

      All things being equal, I would certainly lean towards using open access journals, simply because I prefer my work to get as much exposure as possible, but all things are not equal.

      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    12. Re:Researchers don't care about open access by paiute · · Score: 1

      All based on differing definitions of 'prefer'.

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
  2. Contract restrictions? by Sockatume · · Score: 2

    I can't speak from experience but a lot of academic institutions put clauses in their contracts defining how ownership of inventions and discoveries are split between institution and employee. I don't think that any of them would expressly prohibit an open licence, but I can imagine a lot of researchers or their legal departments would be wary of trying to test the issue when a simpler option exists.

    It seems to me that some good discussion of the potential legal issues from qualified people could help reassure authors and their employees.

    --
    No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    1. Re:Contract restrictions? by FriendlyStatistician · · Score: 1

      This is usually the case with patents, but I've never heard of an academic institution claiming an ownership interest in employees' copyrights or having contract clauses about what sort of copyright license is allowable.

    2. Re:Contract restrictions? by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's my impression too, although I wonder how many people subject to such clauses really know where the lines are.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    3. Re:Contract restrictions? by l3v1 · · Score: 1

      "academic institution claiming an ownership interest in employees' copyrights"

      Copyright? No. Ownership? Yes, in many cases, including mine. What you publish, (c) stays with you or with the publisher in case of (c) transfer forms, but owenrship of the IP you produce falls to the institute. I don't think that's something out of the ordinary.

      Regarding the original post's remarks about picking licenses regarding publications and results, I'm not surprised that no changes in the text or results or no commercial use clauses are picked, since let's be honest, it's one thing to openly publish your results, but it's a completely different one to allow anyone to commercially exploit your results that you've been working your a** off to produce. Give credit where it's due, and don't think of researchers as a source to freely exploit, that's just not fair. Some institutions and researchers can afford to patent great solutions and results before publications, so they can protect them, others can't but still, their results - while openly published - belong to them.

      --
      I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
    4. Re:Contract restrictions? by godrik · · Score: 1

      I am a researcher which publishes (some of) my results on arxiv. I always chose the open-access-only option which allow arxiv to basically do nothing else than show the pdf and change file format. I am not even sure it allows relayouting.

      I could put them under some various CC license. But I do not for the following reasons:
      -It is unclear to me whether I am actually allowed to do that.
      -I would need to convince my co-authors.
      -If some guy make an other version of the article by changing the result, it might look really bad on me.
      -If some guy "fix" a typo, he might not realized he changed the meaning. Some sentences and paragraphs in article are carefully crafted. Sometimes, editorial changes changes the meaning of things.
      -If somebody add a stupid figure, he will add his name on my paper. screw that.

    5. Re:Contract restrictions? by FriendlyStatistician · · Score: 1

      What sort of "ownership" are you talking about other than copyright and patents? If the copyright stays with the author [or publisher] (which you and I agree on), and the work is not patented, I don't see any other recognizable ownership of "intellectual property" on the work that can transfer to the institution. Since it's published it's obviously not trade secret, and I trademarks doesn't seem applicable.

      Can you explain what this mysterious non-copyright, non-patent, non-trademark, and non-trade-secret "IP" that the institution owns is?

  3. PLOS-ONE is CC-BY by fantomas · · Score: 1

    PLOS ONE seems to get by requiring articles to be CC-BY so some researchers are clearly ok with that licence.

  4. That makes sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    In, say, Linux, you have the ability to modify the source and create a completely new ability by manipulating the functions presented to you. We call this programming.

    If you take an open research article and modify it, then republish it with attribution given to the original author, it turns what is (supposedly) reliable scientific information into a potential weapon against the author, with various elements citing it against the author in other publications.

    Imagine what the strict use of CC-BY-SA would be if used by a modern fundamentalist anti-science group against climate change researchers, for instance.

    1. Re:That makes sense by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Ya I must be missing something here. Is ripping someone's copyrighted work a problem in the academic world? As long as they quote it accurately when criticizing...

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    2. Re:That makes sense by quixote9 · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Research is not programming. The most restrictive license has been the rule in scholarship for centuries, except it wasn't a "license." It was just the way you were supposed to do things. FOSS-type principles pop up everywhere, because when it comes to knowledge, they work.

    3. Re:That makes sense by Sockatume · · Score: 2

      Actually yes, it is. There's a small but brazen minority of researchers who quite literally knock off other people's papers, often including some trivial modifications. You only hear of a few cases, of course, and I don't think that an open access licence is going to really make it any more or less of an issue.

      http://chemjobber.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/my-contribution-to-pierre-yan-debacle.html

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    4. Re:That makes sense by awtbfb · · Score: 1

      It won't stop them, but it gives you the ability to get the plagiarized material pulled. Remember, plagiarism is antithetical to academia. Mashups are fine, as long as you give appropriate credit.

    5. Re:That makes sense by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

      I take your carefully written paper that you've published under a completely permissive licence, rewrite any bits I want (changing the meaning entirely), put a little small print under the authors banner saying "edited by the coalition for scientific accuracy" and put your paper up on my web site pushing homeopathy cures on unsuspecting suckers. All completely legal and there's nothing you can do about it.

    6. Re:That makes sense by Mathinker · · Score: 1

      You are confusing two different types of law, here. The copyright licensing is not connected to the kind of attack you are proposing, because you could just as easily attribute a totally made-up paper to the same scientist.

    7. Re:That makes sense by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      No, I'm not. If I write a paper and put your name on it, THAT is another kind of law. If I modify your paper, with your permission (because you picked a license that explicitly gives me permission to do that), and leave your name on it (because I'm required to by the license YOU chose), THAT is most definitely is a situation that is mediated by copyright law.

    8. Re:That makes sense by Mathinker · · Score: 1

      The requirement of attribution in some copyright licenses would seem to me to be a poor defense against the "other kinds of law" (that's how I interpret your reply). I am not a lawyer, however... perhaps you actually know something about this that I don't?

      Based on what I've seen posted here versus the various legal blogs I read (and my own personal experience about my own attitudes), it seems to me that technical people tend to concentrate upon the technical side of law (that side which deals with technicalities of interpretation of the legal code), while ignoring that law has both a technical side and a "people" side.

    9. Re:That makes sense by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      I'm not a lawyer, but I can't imagine on what grounds you'd sue someone who did exactly what you explicitly gave them permission to do. Are you thinking libel? That only applies if you write something about someone. There are laws preventing me from writing something and putting your name on it, but in this case YOU wrote it, and YOU put your name on it (then gave me permission to modify it, so long as I left your name on it).

      IANAL so it's quite possible I'm wrong, but my amateur impression is that a judge would laugh you out of court with the advice that you pick a better copyright license next time. And that impression is based pretty much entirely on the "people" side of judges not liking their time wasted.

    10. Re:That makes sense by Mathinker · · Score: 1

      but I can't imagine on what grounds you'd sue someone who did exactly what you explicitly gave them permission to do. Are you thinking libel?

      No, I'd more likely think tortious interference, since the damage being done is to the academic reputation.

  5. Conflating open access and open source by Nick+Fel · · Score: 5, Informative

    Why is this surprising? Open access, which most scientists support in principle, is not the same as open source. It's about making sure that research outputs (particularly those that are government-funded) are made available for everyone to read, not just those with an expensive subscription. Access to that knowledge support innovation. It doesn't mean being able to reuse the original material however you like.

    1. Re:Conflating open access and open source by Hatta · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's also the fact that data isn't copyrightable. It's just facts. The important issue with open access research is that the data is available for others to analyze. A CC-ND license does not prevent that.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    2. Re:Conflating open access and open source by ananyo · · Score: 1

      Many, many advocates of open access publication say that without liberal licenses, it's not open access at all. so there is an important argument over definition here. For instance, data mining is going to be the next 'big thing' - if you need separate deals with publishers in order for researchers to text mine, that's going to risk scuppering the field before it's really gotten off the ground. Many are under the impression these sorts of issues are left behind if you publish in open access journals - but they are not.

    3. Re:Conflating open access and open source by gandhi_2 · · Score: 1

      I know, right?

      The fact that researchers are chosing an open access journal at all should be a good sign. The journal provides a range of licence options for a reason but the open access is always there.

      They should cry more.

    4. Re:Conflating open access and open source by Peter+Desnoyers · · Score: 1

      Remember that most scientific papers are vehicles to describe work which has been done by the authors. It makes no sense for someone else to modify it - they typically don't have enough information about the work the paper is based on, and when they're done it's no good to them, as it still describes someone else's work.

      There are probably people - e.g. tech journalists - who could make use of my writing if I used a liberal license, but you don't have the same reciprocity you have in open-source software. People who contribute to open source software also benefit from others' contributions, while in the case of scholarly writing the benefits would primarily flow in one direction.

    5. Re:Conflating open access and open source by ananyo · · Score: 1

      From wiki, the infallible source of all wisdom: "Open access (OA) is the practice of providing unrestricted access via the Internet to peer-reviewed scholarly journal article"

      'unrestricted access' is exactly what it isn't some would argue, if your licence doesn't allow text mining, for example.

    6. Re:Conflating open access and open source by dragonflea · · Score: 1

      There's also the fact that data isn't copyrightable. It's just facts.

      While data isn't copyrightable, the published article is. Scientific journals are not just collections of spreadsheets and data files, they are a curated, peer-reviewed, filtered, and edited product intended to deliver a cohesive set of information to specific audiences. That takes effort and resources, which means that resulting product is a copyrightable work of art. If you stumble across a data file hosted on Joe Smith's faculty website while searching for info on your topic, how do you know if it's any good? If that same information appears as a peer-reviewed article in a prestigious journal, it could have a different value for you -- it's been vetted. That process doesn't happen magically without resources. If the resulting product is made freely available, the resources come from elsewhere (eg, submission fees), but it's still copyrightable.

    7. Re:Conflating open access and open source by Hatta · · Score: 2

      Irrelevant. As long as I can get the data for free, and do my own analysis on that data, and publish my analysis of the data, it's free enough for research. This is how it works with closed access journals already, my institution just has to pay. Even though the journal articles are copyrighted, I can still take their data and analyze it and publish that analysis.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  6. CC-BY-ND by IRWolfie- · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Where's the CC-BY-ND option? I would have thought most scientists would not want others to alter their work because it is not technical documentation or code, but an expression of their own thoughts.

    1. Re:CC-BY-ND by ColdCat · · Score: 1

      CC-BY-ND looks little counter productive in research because it means "unchanged and in whole" so for citations it's not usable.

    2. Re:CC-BY-ND by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Citing is covered by the fair use rationale and not revoke-able with a license.

    3. Re:CC-BY-ND by arisvega · · Score: 1

      .. others to alter their work because it is not technical documentation or code, but an expression of their own thoughts.

      Depends: in supercomputing simulations, the code is crucial.

      On this note, I would embrace the NC-SA (non-commercial / share alike) options: I have been putting countless hours per week for years now on developing code under a measly academic salary, and I see no reason whatsoever to not charge a hefty price to any one that wants to use the code commercially.

      A good practice is a spin-off company from the university that exclusively licenses use of an invention to investors, where each partner (inventor, university, investor) has 1/3 of the profit, but only the inventor (or researcher) and the investors have boardroom seats.

      --
      The three laws of thermodynamics:(1) You can't win. (2) You can't break even. (3) You can't even quit.
    4. Re:CC-BY-ND by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Citations are fair use, aren't they?

      (otherwise how do people cite paywalled articles today?)

    5. Re:CC-BY-ND by IRWolfie- · · Score: 1

      I should clarify: I think the code should be GPL or some other free software license, but I don't see any issue with CC-BY-ND for your paper (where you are just expressing your thoughts).

    6. Re:CC-BY-ND by IRWolfie- · · Score: 1

      Just to point out a further problem with this sort of reasoning: standard non-open works are already ND and NC.

  7. blanket statement: evidence please by fantomas · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Researchers don't generally care about their papers being open access or not."

    - quite a blanket statement. Quite a few researchers in my area are very enthusiastic about open access journals from a philosophical standpoint rather than "because they are easy to get published in" (plenty of poor quality closed journals fit into that category, they spam us regularly).

    Evidence please. Or we're just slinging personal anecdotes here. Which wouldn't get us published in a decent peer-reviewed journal ;-)

    1. Re:blanket statement: evidence please by stranger_to_himself · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Evidence please. Or we're just slinging personal anecdotes here. Which wouldn't get us published in a decent peer-reviewed journal ;-)

      Well it is anecdotal, but I've been in literally hundreds of 'which journal should I send my paper to' discussions (I've been doing this a long time), and the factors that come up are (in this order) (1) impact factor (2) readership, ie which society is the journal affiliated with (3) likely success (4) cost of publication. Nobody has ever once said to me "I want to send to journal X because they are open access".

      I think most would agree in principle that open access is a good thing, but when it comes to having your work seen, read and acknowledged by the right people it completely goes out the window. This is medical research btw, different fields may differ.

    2. Re:blanket statement: evidence please by elfprince13 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      and what field are you in? Sharing culture varies radically depending on discipline.

    3. Re:blanket statement: evidence please by stranger_to_himself · · Score: 4, Interesting

      and what field are you in? Sharing culture varies radically depending on discipline.

      Medicine. I agree it's less open that many disciplines. Like I said, I think open access is generally a good thing. But in my vast experience, people actually doing research genuinely don't care, as they know that people at other universities will be able to read their work whether its open or not.

      As an aside - a lot of universities are rejecting the 'Gold' open access standard (the author pays version) because it is horrendously expensive for authors (usually 1000-2000 per article). They are instead preferring the 'Green' open access model, where the journal keeps the copyright to the final copyedited version, but lets researchers distribute their own version on a personal or institutional website. This is probably the way of the future because we can't keep paying stupidly high open access publishing fees.

    4. Re:blanket statement: evidence please by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

      Nobody has ever once said to me "I want to send to journal X because they are open access".

      No shit! It turns out that scientists first and foremost need to eat, i.e. need to stay in employment, i.e. submit to journals that potential employers and funding bodies car about. In the brutal publish or perish environment everything else has to be secondary for everyone who is not already so famous that they get money no matter where they publish.

      In my old field most people put all papers up on their website anyway whether or not the journal was open access.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    5. Re:blanket statement: evidence please by hedwards · · Score: 2

      Only if you go to a larger or more expensive college do you get access to major journals. And it doesn't permit folks that are out of college to gain access to them either if they see a particularly controversial claim being made.

      I'm not sure why creating derivatives would be considered OK for these studies. The stuff you need to do with them are generally already covered under the rules for citation and plagiarism anyways. The big issue is gaining access in the first place.

      If it's a study that's created with private funds closing it off is merely anti-social, but if they're using government funds, then it really ought to be free for anybody to look at and examine.

    6. Re:blanket statement: evidence please by cozziewozzie · · Score: 2

      As an aside - a lot of universities are rejecting the 'Gold' open access standard (the author pays version) because it is horrendously expensive for authors (usually 1000-2000 per article)

      This is true, and it is an important factor, but don't forget that this is still cheaper than a decent conference.

      Many world-class conferences (ICPR, for example) are charging up to USD 1000 for registration, and a visit there will easily cost you another thousand after you factor in the flight, hotel, and meals.

      At least in my field (computer science), it is standard practice to provide preprints for free on your official webpage. In the case a specific journal complains (I've never had this happen), people simply ask for it by email. I do believe that open-access journals have played a role in making this acceptable.

    7. Re:blanket statement: evidence please by elfprince13 · · Score: 1

      Hang out with computer science or math people for a while. It'll blow your mind. A culture that produced RMS would have to ;)

    8. Re:blanket statement: evidence please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They are instead preferring the 'Green' open access model, where the journal keeps the copyright to the final copyedited version, but lets researchers distribute their own version on a personal or institutional website. This is probably the way of the future because we can't keep paying stupidly high open access publishing fees.

      Having worked in physics, I've never heard that referred to as open access at all, because that was the norm for a lot of otherwise closed journals, for some time. At least in physics, that is the status quo trying to be broken out of by open access.

      And in response to what was said earlier, I don't think scientists would like a journal because it is easy to get published under, but quite the opposite. They would try to publish their paper in the most exclusive journal that will still accept it. That aside, several colleagues and myself have a strong interest in open access journals, or even using the open access options on already established journals. But it gets expensive, which is particularly difficult for those on small projects with limited budgets or those writing papers after a project's budget is over with. Although this was countered at one university I worked at by the department setting aside money to help people publish in open journals when their own project's budget was too constraining.

    9. Re:blanket statement: evidence please by Zordak · · Score: 1

      i.e. submit to journals that potential employers and funding bodies car about

      I don't get your car analogy. Could you please elaborate? </smarmy>

      --

      Today's Sesame Street was brought to you by the number e.
    10. Re:blanket statement: evidence please by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

      Medical research as well, and the issue of open access has come up. It's down the list, but it is starting to come up.

      At the same time, I'm about to submit to a journal (JCI) that's essentially always been open access. It's not a new idea. And if being open access is more than a philosophical advantage then it will show in your (1) and probably (2).

      But this article isn't about open access. It's about letting people "remix" your paper and use it for whatever they want. Which I think is a horrible idea.

    11. Re:blanket statement: evidence please by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      I'm not in the US, but if what you say is true you guys are truly screwed up.

      In Canada every university has direct access to the vast majority of journals anyone cares about. Joe Random in his parents' basement just has to leave said basement and go to a university library and he can surf papers to his heart's content. Colleges might have a slightly more limited selection, but if there's anything you want that they don't have, they'll get it (for students and faculty) by interlibrary loan. If Joe Random doesn't live near a university or college, the smallest public library (like the one in my home town of 800 people) can get an article from anywhere in the country (and some places in the US I believe) by interlibrary loan.

    12. Re:blanket statement: evidence please by stranger_to_himself · · Score: 1

      Hang out with computer science or math people for a while. It'll blow your mind. A culture that produced RMS would have to ;)

      I'm reading Slashdot! And I used to be a mathematician back when you had to submit papers to journals by mail.

    13. Re:blanket statement: evidence please by hedwards · · Score: 1

      It's not wrong, when I was getting my teaching certificate, I didn't have access to any of that stuff because the school wasn't big enough to be able to afford it. I think there were only like 30 or 40 students in the program tops, and it would have been unaffordable for them to provide.

      So, no, it's not wrong, you'd be surprised how many schools there are of that size that can't afford to pay for things which might only be used for one article over the course of a year.

      And BTW, the education I received there was a lot better than what I've seen from larger schools.

    14. Re:blanket statement: evidence please by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      "Researchers don't generally care about their papers being open access or not."

      - quite a blanket statement. Quite a few researchers in my area are very enthusiastic about open access journals from a philosophical standpoint rather than "because they are easy to get published in" (plenty of poor quality closed journals fit into that category, they spam us regularly).

      Evidence please. Or we're just slinging personal anecdotes here. Which wouldn't get us published in a decent peer-reviewed journal ;-)

      ===
      They may object if there was plagerism. Open means visible to all

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
  8. Incentive structures for scientists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The incentive structure for academic scientists is not encouraging all type of sharing. Primary data is usually hard and expensive to generate and may be the basis for future and ongoing projects as well (and future publications - i.e. career progress). By sharing data this value is potentially lost . At the moment there are very limited incentives to share data / create resources for academic scientists - this has to change, and then there would be more OA interests also for data sharing.

  9. CC-BY-NC-ND is enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    CC-BY-NC-ND is enough for the basic open access idea. Researchers can be sure that their papers can be easily and cheaply accessed by everyone interested. This license covers only the paper as a whole and ensures its (textual) integrety. The readers can still use its ideas (potential patents are independent of the paper and its license) and cite it according to the normal fair use and scientific writing rules.

  10. CC has NOTHING to do with open access... by nweaver · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Open access is ensuring that everyone can read your papers. All the other CC ones are about derivative work rights, which is orthogonal to open access.

    In fact, its rather silly to even think of: Quoting papers is fair use, but modifying scientific papers? You don't want third parties modifying the papers: they can easily screw things up as the paper is only part of the process, there is also the data and analysis behind it.

    So of the choices given, CC-BY-NC-ND is the only one that should be in that list.

    --
    Test your net with Netalyzr
    1. Re:CC has NOTHING to do with open access... by LaggedOnUser · · Score: 1

      So 32% of the authors chose wrongly? And your response is to take their other choices away, because they don't know what they are doing?

    2. Re:CC has NOTHING to do with open access... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Thank you! Open-access has NOTHING to do with these three license forms. As I scientist (and fan of Arxiv) I was puzzled by the headline until I read the paragraph and realized this has nothing to do with open access. This almost makes no sense. The headline of this is completely wrong.

    3. Re:CC has NOTHING to do with open access... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      And -ND makes citations impossible (so you can at most use references), so using it shows misunderstanding of these licenses.

      Nonsense.

      -ND lets you do exactly the same things that you could do with an old-style journal article, where you didn't have a license at all. This includes limited quotation, because that falls under fair use. You also have one additional option, which is to republish the article in its entirety for non-commercial purposes.

      That is the whole point of open-access.

      What -ND actually doesn't allow is extension or modification of the original work, so you couldn't produce "version 2" of my journal article, with my introduction and methods sections, but your data and conclusions, or something like that. But that is not considered good academic practice anyway, so nothing is lost here.

    4. Re:CC has NOTHING to do with open access... by serviscope_minor · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And -ND makes citations impossible

      That's a total misunderstanding. As is this:

      -NC cannot be quoted in research done commercially.

      The license can only grant extra rights not afforded by copyright, it cannot take away rights. Fair use built into copyright allows for quoting. No license can take away that right.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    5. Re:CC has NOTHING to do with open access... by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      Not only is it not true that -ND makes citations impossible (this is covered by fair use), but I've never yet had a scientific journal refuse me permission to reprint material from a published paper, which is done routinely in scientific review papers.

    6. Re:CC has NOTHING to do with open access... by ColdCat · · Score: 2

      "fair use" is only an American copyright extension there is no international law/agreement for "fair use"

    7. Re:CC has NOTHING to do with open access... by hweimer · · Score: 1

      So of the choices given, CC-BY-NC-ND is the only one that should be in that list.

      I strongly disagree. CC-BY and CC-BY-SA are extremely useful if someone wants to cover your work (e.g., figures) in a textbook or review article and needs to make some editorial changes. Extremely annoying for everyone if non-free licenses are being used and a lot of paperwork has to be done. Same goes for the case when people deem your work so important or interesting that they want to put it into Wikipedia. Great for the scientists, but a real PITA if the license of the paper is incompatible with the one used by Wikipedia.

      --
      OS Reviews: Free and Open Source Software
    8. Re:CC has NOTHING to do with open access... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      So what you're saying is that the journal offered scientists an array of truly crappy options and they preferred the least crappy?

  11. CC would be to allow plagiarism by water-vole · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As a scientist I want everyone to be able to read my work. But if I write an article I don't want to allow others to modify it. If they change it, put their name on it and publish it anywhere, then they are commiting plagiarism, which is one of the most serious crimes in the scientific world. If they change it and leave my name on it, then they are publishing something I did not approve in my name, which is probably even worse.

    1. Re:CC would be to allow plagiarism by radtea · · Score: 1

      Likewise. For all the obfuscation and nonsense going on in this discussion, the most restrictive license is the one that appropriately addresses the open access issue.

      The ND clause is entirely appropriate in the cut-throat world of academia, where we want others to know about our work and use our results, but not to be able to "remix" our papers.

      This is also important in the replication of other's results. I once published a paper that was quite deliberately modeled on another work. The previous work had introduced a particular image registration algorithm in a specific domain of medical imaging using a particular set of phantom images. Because I wanted to compare my algorithm directly to theirs, I replicated a lot of their work.

      This is an important incidental to not being able to simply reuse their stuff in a casual non-quality-controlled way. If they had made a mistake in their setup or whatever, I had a chance to find it, so there were a handful of ideas that were re-tested in my work and independently validated.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
  12. Shallow cut by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Your anecdote doesn't explain why there's a whole Open Access movement to begin with. Who do you think are leading this? If researchers didn't care, then "open access" wouldn't even exist as a term.

    I suggest that the people you're hanging around are just behind the curve. Certainly the charge is lead by researchers that have 'embraced the internet'. Given that I recently saw someone writing a medical paper in MS Word using Comic Sans, I guess it's not your guys. This will change once they realize that their number (1) is positively correlated with open access; more easily available equals more read equals more citations equals higher impact.

    1. Re:Shallow cut by stranger_to_himself · · Score: 1

      This will change once they realize that their number (1) is positively correlated with open access; more easily available equals more read equals more citations equals higher impact.

      Well of course. As I said its about impact factor. If and when open access journals get decent impact factors, researchers will be more inclined to use them.

  13. Almost right..... by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Science researchers live and die by their publications. Their papers are their currency. To let someone completely modify it and not even attribute it back to them is near professional suicide, unless you're already so famous that you don't need additional papers. As a result, you're right, they don't care that much whether journals are open access or not. They really care about whether publishing their paper somewhere is going to help their career, or hurt it. The first license is at best not going to help, at worst going to hurt it. That leaves the other two, with the final one being the one that guarantees that your name will stay attached to it, and that it will stay as they wrote it.

    Note that even the final license let's anyone view it, download it and pass it around. That's pretty damn good open access, and exactly what is needed. The rest is just what the scientists want to see happen to their paper.

    --
    Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    1. Re:Almost right..... by dcollins · · Score: 1, Troll

      "Science researchers live and die by their publications. Their papers are their currency."

      And this explains why the majority of papers are corrupt, untrustworthy, and non-replicable.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell%27s_law

      --
      We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
    2. Re:Almost right..... by psnyder · · Score: 4, Insightful
      This! CC-BY-NC-ND is already an extremely open license. It can be shared and read freely so that other researchers can get ideas from it for their own research.

      What other people CAN'T do:
      • BY: they can't plagiarize (they must attribute the work)
      • NC: they can't sell it (non-commercial purposes only)
      • ND: they can't paraphrase and take things out of context (if someone copies it, they copy the full paper, in its original form)

      The article worries about the inability to do text mining and translations. Good points, and they mention an organization working on a license just like the CC-BY-NC-ND that would allow text mining and translations. Good for them.

      The rest of it is FUD claiming researchers don't understand the license. I disagree. CC-BY-NC-ND is being used the most because its the best license for openly sharing while still protecting their work.

    3. Re:Almost right..... by Idarubicin · · Score: 1

      To let someone completely modify it and not even attribute it back to them is near professional suicide

      Almost almost right... In the article at the top of this discussion, the least restrictive (that is, the most permissive) license choice given was CC-BY. It - and indeed, all three licenses listed - require that attribution be preserved as a condition of reuse. That said, I'm on board with most of the rest of your comment. If we look at how most scientists expect and hope their published papers to be used, then even the no-derivative-works, non-commercial-only CC-BY-NC-ND license works just fine.

      The need for appropriate attribution of others' work and ideas is already very deeply rooted in the sciences. In writing a paper for publication, one very seldom needs or wants to directly copy more than a few words from another author's work. Such limited, clearly-attributed, de minimus copying is already considered permissible, desirable fair use even when drawn from entirely non-free works.

      Further, copyright doesn't cover ideas, but only their specific form of expresssion, so paraphrasing of descriptive material in non-free works is generally non-infringing of copyright--but still requires proper attribution for the purposes of academic publishing. Similarly, copyright doesn't protect simple facts (the mass of the proton was measured as such-and-such) but again academic publishers will expect such claims to be properly attributed.

      A professor giving a lecture, or a scientist giving a talk at a conference, may lift figures wholesale from other authors' non-free work, as long as appropriate attribution is given; this sort of 'remixing' into a derivative work is taken to be fair use in an educational setting. (About the only place this bumps up against copyright issues is where this sort of material gets bundled into courseware packs that are sold by a university or other publisher.)

      The writer of a review article may occasionally seek permission from another author to reprint a figure, but generally such material is included by reference to the original work, rather than by direct copying. Partly this is for the prosaic and increasingly-less-relevant purpose of limiting the length of printed papers, and partly this is for the entirely noble and worthy purpose of encouraging a reader to review a figure in its full context.

      In truth, the expectations of the academic and scientific publishing communities regarding proper attribution and avoiding plagiarism already impose more stringent (but still generally reasonable) restrictions on most reuse of published papers than any license. For the purposes of disseminating and reusing scientific knowledge, it is far more constructive for papers to be gratis than libre.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
    4. Re:Almost right..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There's a deeper issue, I think, which is that some in the open source / open licensing community don't understand that different licenses are appropriate for different purposes and different people.

      What the community should be supporting is the greatest amount of openness that a creator feels comfortable with, and nothing more.

      I use open-source and open-licensed products all the time, and try to license my own work under such licenses as frequently as possible. However, there are many situations where I don't agree with the more open option's model, or believe there would be extremely negative consequences (not just to me, but to the field as a whole), and choose a more restrictive option. The reasons scientists have for preferring a certain license, as you point out, are good ones, and aren't thoughtless or superficial. Science as a process involves careful, clear competitive discussion, and that discussion would be destroyed if the source of certain arguments or findings, or the nature of those findings, became completely unclear. It would be like a legal trial where each side is allowed to lie about who the plaintiffs, defendants, and witnesses are, and are allowed to tamper with the evidence. No one would agree to that, so I don't see why it should be any different in scientific discourse.

      More open is not always better. How open a license to use should be a rational decision based on the factors present in a certain context. Otherwise it comes across as irrational zealotry, which will turn off more people from openness as a principle.

    5. Re:Almost right..... by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      n the article at the top of this discussion, the least restrictive (that is, the most permissive) license choice given was CC-BY. It - and indeed, all three licenses listed - require that attribution be preserved as a condition of reuse.

      Thanks - I wasn't aware of that point.

      For the purposes of disseminating and reusing scientific knowledge, it is far more constructive for papers to be gratis than libre.

      Very nice summary. I think I'll re-use that under CC-BY-NC-ND. ;)

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    6. Re:Almost right..... by cozziewozzie · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I completely agree and was stumped by the article. CC-BY-NC-ND is chosen because it is the most meaningful license for the job.

      A good paper takes many weeks (sometimes months) of careful preparation, and every word is weighed heavily. Careless rephrasing and remixing by somebody who does not fully understand the paper (and this is very common with advanced topics) can kill your career.

      People are already allowed to share it free of charge, read it free of charge, reproduce the ideas therein, build upon these ideas, and using excerpts and figures from the paper is already covered by fair use in most countries. If you really need somebody's exact text, you cite it.

      I'm a proponent of sharing, but what exactly is the point of releasing scientific articles under CC-BY? Only scientists and highly technical people read them anyway, and they have no use for CC-BY. Is it so some publisher can sell it although it's freely available? So someone can plagiarise and "remix" your paper? Such a paper would be rejected by any sane conference or journal anyway. Who exactly is being harmed here?

    7. Re:Almost right..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This.

      It seems like some people are interpreting more restrictive licenses on the paper as a some sort of limit on what people can do with the research. It is not, it is only a limit on what people can do to the direct contents of the paper.

      Even with fully restrictive, closed journal articles, you can continue the work, redo the work, reference the research, discuss or argue against the research, etc.. You can even directly quote it or use equations from the work, as appropriate to any other fair use critique of something. The license doesn't have anything to do with limiting follow up work, as long as a person can get the paper in the first place.

      If you need to quote more than a sentence or few equations, why waste space in your document and just reference the original paper anyways? Why would you need to edit and publish a variation of the exact same paper (which is quite different than repeating the research or study and doing your own paper)? It seems it would only create confusion to have multiple versions of paper around. About the only thing I can think of is if the introduction or conclusion was exceptionally well written and general, such that you would want to use it in a book or other general introduction of the field, in which case you can still ask the author to use it.

    8. Re:Almost right..... by lorinc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I would also have chosen the BY-NC-ND package even if I don't care about the NC aspect just because it is the only one to have the ND claim. This one is fundamental for a research paper.

      If you take into account the time spent to write a good paper, every single word has been carefully crafted for hours. The idea to allow paraphrase or remixes is at best non-sense, most of the time it's just a very bad idea.

      I'm pretty sure the authors in the study choose ND, and what ever the remaining condition, because as a researcher, there is just no way I could allow you to make me say something I was not meaning to say in the first place.

    9. Re:Almost right..... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Worse than that, somebody might remix your paper, use it for some purpose, and then attribute it to you!

      Many scientific papers contain important statements that are backed by the reputations of the people and institutions whose names are on them. There isn't any reason to let anybody modify them, attribution or not. If you'd like to use one of my figures you can do use the time-tested solution - send me an e-mail and ask. If you want to remix my text and use it on your web site to sell your snake oil... no.

  14. Wait? What? by Knightman · · Score: 1

    95% + 68% = 163%

    Did I miss something?

    --
    --- Reality doesn't care about your opinions, it happens anyway and if you are in the way you'll get squished.
    1. Re:Wait? What? by Knightman · · Score: 1

      Oh, must be tired... Ignore my post above...

      Me get moar coffee now...

      --
      --- Reality doesn't care about your opinions, it happens anyway and if you are in the way you'll get squished.
  15. This is not a new argument by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

    There have been people arguing against the NC clause for CC licenses for some time now, and almost all of them are basically saying "We want to take the stuff that these people have given away under CC-NC, maybe repackage it, and sell it." In other words, "Why can't I profit from other people's hard work without even talking to them about my project and paying them if they demand it?"

    If you want to repackage or resell something that's CC-NC, you can contact the person who wrote it, and get the rights to do your commercial project. That can be difficult if you're talking about, say, an image uploaded to a public digital art gallery, but it's not at all difficult when it's a journal article that says who wrote the article and what institutions they're affiliated with. That person may ask you to pay royalties or a flat fee, which is only fair, since you're trying to profit from their work.

    And yes, this makes CC-NC a more restrictive license for commercial work than, say, the GPL (which explicitly allows selling copies if you want). Tough.

    --
    I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
  16. Most biomedical research required open access by tgibbs · · Score: 1

    Most researchers like open-access, but they are more concerned about publishing in a widely-read journal with a long-standing reputation for rigorous peer-review, because that looks better on their CVs

    Fortunately, in the area of biomedical research, virtually all publication is effectively ope-access, because most biomedical researchers receive at least some support from NIH, and NIH requires that all publications supported by NIH funds be available to the public within a year of publication

  17. 99.73% by dcollins · · Score: 1

    And I assume that the choice was one of the 3 licenses offered about 99.73% of the time.

    "... authors chose either of the more restrictive licences 95% of the time — and the most restrictive, CC-BY-NC-ND, 68% of the time."

    --
    We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
  18. Understandable by prefec2 · · Score: 2

    As a scientist, I publish my work in form of a paper. Others can use the results mentioned in the paper (for free). This is normal scientific practice. However, I do not want that some other person takes my paper, modifies it and republishes it somewhere else. BTW that is considered plagiarism, which is immoral in the scientific community. When it is about data, you can use them as input, but not modify them and say it is the same or "new version" of my data. However, you could derive your own data from it, mention where you got it and what you modified and why. For my code, it is released under Apache or Eclipse license. And yes you can do wan ever you want. However, I would like, if you would contribute and publish you additions.

  19. I car for open access. not open sharing. by aepervius · · Score: 2

    I published a few paper (Quantum physic), and i do care that people read them. But I would not want somebody to take them and CHANGE them potentially reflecting badly unto me because the guy changing it make a blunder. *shrug* not a surprise other feel the same.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  20. What is 'ND' (and 'NC') in research? by oneiros27 · · Score: 1

    Both CC-BY-ND and CC-BY-NC-SA have never been clearly defined for research, where it's the ideas, not the specific document used to convey those ideas that matter.

    So, for instance -- if I write a paper on using (MethodX) to solve (ProblemY1), and someone realizes that (MethodX) might also be able to solve (ProblemY2), are they allowed to do it, or using it in new ways a derivitive? What if they wrote a paper about their findings, is that a derivitive? How about if I realize that there's a larger (ProblemY), is that a derivitive? Or if I realized that I could improve on (MethodX), is that a derivitive? Or even if you just have another occurance of (ProblemY1), are you allowed to use this knowledge of (MethodX) to apply it to the problem, or is any application of the research considered a derivitive?

    The other one that people suggest for papers is CC-BY-NC, thinking that it'd prevent someone from using the ideas in the paper from trying to create a business around the idea ... but does this also mean that you're not allowed to publish new research that builds in a CC-BY-NC paper in a for-profit journal? Or attempt to get grants to extend the work?

    The CC licenses (other than CC0) just don't work for research articles. I'm not even sure if CC-BY really works. (it's one thing to cite a paper ... but does it chain? Do we have issues with publishers who limit number of items in a reference list?) How do you give attribution when it actually gets used? (Do you acknowledge the authors when you install a road using asphalt they developed, or during the grand opening, or every time someone drives on it?)

    Yes, this all may seem pedantic, but the CC licenses were developed for a specific purpose, and it was *not* research. I was at a meeting a couple of years back (not sure if it was BRDI or DataCite, as they were back-to-back), where John Wilbanks (at the time with Science Commons) was recommending CC0 for research data, in part because of these problems.

    (In the case of data, the discussion typically comes up as either 'Data Use' vs. 'Data Re-Use' or as 'Data Repurposing', or the greater concept of 'Data Policies')

    Until we get these cleared up, CC-BY-ND and CC-BY-NC-SA should *NOT* be used for publishing research.

    --
    Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
    1. Re:What is 'ND' (and 'NC') in research? by cozziewozzie · · Score: 1

      Both CC-BY-ND and CC-BY-NC-SA have never been clearly defined for research, where it's the ideas, not the specific document used to convey those ideas that matter.

      They are not supposed to, because they only deal with copyright. The rest is based on widely accepted academic traditions which are older than copyright and function quite well without licenses.

      So, for instance -- if I write a paper on using (MethodX) to solve (ProblemY1), and someone realizes that (MethodX) might also be able to solve (ProblemY2), are they allowed to do it, or using it in new ways a derivitive? What if they wrote a paper about their findings, is that a derivitive? How about if I realize that there's a larger (ProblemY), is that a derivitive? Or if I realized that I could improve on (MethodX), is that a derivitive? Or even if you just have another occurance of (ProblemY1), are you allowed to use this knowledge of (MethodX) to apply it to the problem, or is any application of the research considered a derivitive?

      It is derivative in a copyright sense if you modify the original FORMULATION and publish that. Then the license matters.

      In terms of science, this is what you do for each one of the listed cases:

      1) Cite the original paper and all other related work
      2) Explain the new/bigger/different problem and why it is important
      3) Explain your solution and how it differs from previously published work (and also it which way it is similar)
      4) Publish

      In short, do what all scientists do all the time, and licenses play no role whatsoever.

  21. Re:Where's CC-BY-SA? by akozakie · · Score: 2

    You're completely missing the idea of copyright as applied to a paper. The work that is copyrighted is the paper itself, not the research described within. You can build your research on the results of others absolutely normally - and that's what Newton meant. Read, do research based on it, write a new paper. Fair use makes it even possible to cite the parts you want to discuss, if necessary. I can't really think of anything more you could ask for, anything "more free".

    On the other hand, building your paper on someone else's paper by just modyfing the relevant parts is not in any way helpful for science - and that's the definition of derivative work here. In fact, if you do something like this, you're a lousy, lazy scientist - if you can fit your results into an existing paper like that, you probably haven't done anything new and worth reading. ND-free licenses are extremely useful for code, potentially useful in art, but worthless in science. There's no value added here.

    I think the idea of labeling your research as "ND" is pretty anti-social. If you don't want other people to use your stuff, then fine, don't show it to anyone. Why would anyone submit a paper to an "Open Access" journal, and then label their paper as "No Derivatives."

    Seriously? You consider only completely open or completely closed position as non-hypocritical? What you're saying is just pseudophilosophical mumbo-jumbo, based on a fundamentalist understanding of "information wants to be free". Is you believe that, peer reviewed papers should not exist - you should publish everything, whether or not competent peers think it's utter BS. Sorry, but this does not work for stuff as specialized as scientific papers.

  22. Wording of License by rayharris · · Score: 1

    Here's the plain English version of the "No Derivatives" clause of the CC-BY-NC-ND license:

    No Derivatives: You may not alter, transform, or build upon this work.

    Citations and quotes are covered under fair use, so that's still possible. The problem is that of the three parts of the ND clause, the "build upon" part is the only one that should apply to a scientific paper. Now this clause might be considered too restrictive for something like a photograph or work of fiction for some people, but the "may not alter or transform" parts should almost be automatic for evidence-based, peer-reviewed scientific paper.

    I'd recommend that Creative Commons consider adding a slightly less restrictive version of "No Derivatives" and call it something like "No Modifications". It could go something like this:

    No Modifications: You may not alter or transform this work except to enable efficient search and retrieval of the work from an automated storage system and for basic reformatting required to display a work in a different medium.

    This would allow other researchers to "build upon" the research (what scientific research really is). It would make it clear that storing the paper in a database is fine as long as when the paper is actually displayed, it isn't changed except for possibly formatting (think margins and fonts). The paper could be republished (again with formatting changes) as long as the BY clause (and NC clause, if present) is followed.

    This seems to be a good compromise between SA and ND. The NM clause also be used for other types of works. For example, a photo used in a calendar under SA could be cropped and photo-manipulated. Under NM it could be included in the calendar (built upon), but only transformations needed for publication would be allowed such as resizing and changing the resolution. Under ND it couldn't be used in the calendar at all.

    I also might suggest a couple other clauses. First: CA - Commercial Available. This would indicate that while the work is released under "No Commercial Use", the author is open to commercial use on a case by case basis. Second: NP - Non Profit. This would indicate that the work could be used in something that would be sold (like the calendar) as long as some portion of the proceeds (say 70%) went to a non-profit organization officially recognized by the appropriate government agency in the organization's legal jurisdiction.

    So the levels would be:

    Money:
    - Any Use
    - Non Profit (Optional Commercial Available)
    - No Commercial Use (Optional Commercial Available)

    Changes:
    - Any Change
    - No Modifications (can be reformatted and built upon)
    - No Derivatives (cannot be reformatted or built upon)

    --
    I void warranties.
    1. Re:Wording of License by ceoyoyo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's not necessary. The "can't build upon" for a scientific paper can really only be interpreted as you can't keep my paper as is, but add bits of your own to it.

      Building upon published work in the usual scientific way is not governed by copyright at all, so it cannot be restricted by a copyright license.

  23. Re:Where's CC-BY-SA? by cozziewozzie · · Score: 2

    Maybe ND doesn't actually prevent any scientists from building on top of one's research, but I think the idea of labeling your research as "ND" is pretty anti-social. If you don't want other people to use your stuff, then fine, don't show it to anyone.

    You misunderstand.

    You WANT people to use your stuff. You WANT them to build on it. And then you want them to write their own TEXT and publish that.

    What you don't want is for somebody who does not build on your work to take your paper, jumble it around until it makes no sense and is completely wrong, and then claim that YOU wrote that mess.

    All science is derivative. CC-BY-ND is already a huge improvement over the old situation where the copyright is owned by the publisher and the contents behind a paywall.

  24. Re:Win-win by tqk · · Score: 1

    Because it's not clear what is and what is not commercial.

    So? What's that got to do with anything? Pay for the right to use it, and you can then do anything you want to find out if it is. Hell, you could use the work to do your own research for free, then if you find out it has commercial applications get a licence.

    No sympathy for you.

    --
    "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
  25. Reasons are reasonable and simple by Meeni · · Score: 1

    I NEED my work to be attributed to me, for prestige and ego, but most importantly because my paycheck and ability to put food in my children's plate depends on it.

    I certainly do not want somebody to change the paper I carefully crafted to be scientifically accurate, adding BS to it, making it a pile of crap, and then attribute this to ME. That would be detrimental to my career and reputation.

    If you want to write BS, make it in your own paper where you will be responsible for it, not in mine. Feel free to cite my work when extending it (even if your interpretation of the work is wrong, interested people can refer to the ORIGINAL material, w/o the BS, to judge), but don't modify it.

  26. NOT about open access by SoftwareArtist · · Score: 1

    The summary and title confuse two very different things: open access, which means anyone anywhere can read your paper and learn from it, and open source, which means people can take your words, figures, etc. and reuse them in their own papers and other works, or add their own words into the middle of your paper. Most scientists I know strongly favor open access. That does not mean they want their papers treated as open source. They usually view each paper as a carefully crafted finished product. Other papers will build on it and the science will move on, but the paper remains as a permanent statement of what they had to say on a particular subject at a particular point in time. It's not written to be a living document that keeps evolving and getting modified the way open source software does.

    --
    "I'm too busy to research this and form an educated opinion, but I do have time to tell everyone my uninformed opinion."
  27. Depends on Field by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

    Many world-class conferences (ICPR, for example) are charging up to USD 1000 for registration

    This depends on your field. You would not get many particle physicists at a conference with a $1,000 registration fee!

    1. Re:Depends on Field by cozziewozzie · · Score: 1

      This depends on your field. You would not get many particle physicists at a conference with a $1,000 registration fee!

      I completely believe you. "Normal" conference fees in Computer Science tend to be in the $300-$500 range. I've mentioned ICPR because there was quite an uproar when the registration fee was announced last year.

      There are two things you must keep in mind, though. First is that in Computer Science, conference papers are really, really important. Far more important than in any other field. Journal papers are outdated the moment they are accepted for publication and hopelessly outdated by the time they arrive in your library. So journal papers are reserved for larger breakthroughs which will remain important for a long time.

      The second is that top Computer Science conferences have the status of a journal. Their proceedings are widely available, their blind review involves 3-5 reviewers who are likely bigger experts than they would be most journals, lasts more than 3 months and involves a rebuttal phase, just like a journal. So a paper at a conference like ICCV, CVPR, IJCAI, NIPS and the like will do far more for your career than most journal papers. ICPR is not quite that level, but it is just below it, and they are milking it. It's a HUGE conference, with many thousands of visitors, BTW.

      I was quite disillusioned when I attended a conference primarily aimed at psychologists, biologists and behavioural scientists. Talks were accepted based on a (barely reviewed) abstract submission and some of the science on display was depressing. Conferences simply don't mean much in many fields, so you're right, it does depend on the field.

  28. Open Access vs. Derivatives by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 3, Informative

    As I said its about impact factor. If and when open access journals get decent impact factors, researchers will be more inclined to use them.

    It is not just about impact factor. I would not want to release a paper without a ND licence because a scientific paper is not the same as a book or manual. It is essentially scientific "speech" where you communicate your ideas to others. They are then free to take that idea and run with it but I do not want some random stranger downloading the paper, editing it to change those ideas and conclusions, and then resubmitting it with my name associated with it. If they want to write their own paper then great - use the data, argue that my conclusions are wrong etc. but you don't get to edit my paper even if you willingly acknowledge I wrote it you have to write your own so it is clear whose opinion is being expressed.

    This is particularly true in more controversial fields - imagine what would happen in climate change or evolutionary fields if anyone can download, edit and then resubmit papers. You could completely alter the meaning of the paper and resubmit it with credit given to the original authors who, by implication, will appear to be supporting whatever you wrote.

  29. Re:Where's CC-BY-SA? by Qubit · · Score: 1

    You misunderstand.

    You WANT people to use your stuff. You WANT them to build on it. And then you want them to write their own TEXT and publish that.

    Why shouldn't a peer of yours re-use some of your paper, if some of it (maybe some words...maybe some paragraphs) support their theses as well? With correct attribution, can't you share in his work/glory, just as derivative patents do?

    I can understand that if there's a specific assignment for a class or some specific degree program in which the purpose of the exercise is for people to compose their own work from scratch then re-using excerpts or pieces from other's works might be contrary to those specific goals. But just because we've followed certain (non-)collaborative paths in science for centuries doesn't mean that we need to continue in that fashion.

    What you don't want is for somebody who does not build on your work to take your paper, jumble it around until it makes no sense and is completely wrong, and then claim that YOU wrote that mess.

    I understand the argument, but can someone please provide concrete examples of what is okay and what is nokay? What does it mean for someone to "build on your work" ? How much of your paper, data, or ideas may they quote?

    I don't understand how someone can take someone else's work and turn it into something that "makes no sense" and "is completely wrong", unless they fundamentally misattribute or misquote the person. Can someone please provide an example of a paper that X wrote that was then perverted by Y until it was "completely wrong" ?

    If ND is so important for content creators, why don't we see random programmers out there taking the Linux kernel, "jumbling it around until it makes no sense," and then publishing a derivative work in some fashion that defames/harms Linus and the rest of the kernel devs?

    And just think about public domain works! What if someone were to take a paper written by my grandfather pre-1923 and twist its words into something "completely wrong" -- what recourse would his heirs have from that?

    All science is derivative. CC-BY-ND is already a huge improvement over the old situation where the copyright is owned by the publisher and the contents behind a paywall.

    Sure, CC-BY-ND might be an improvement over the draconian control exercised by the publishers in the past. But so would nearly any license change. Your statement doesn't say anything about whether CC-BY-ND is any better or worse than CC-BY-SA.

    --

    coding is life /* the rest is */
  30. Re:Where's CC-BY-SA? by Qubit · · Score: 1

    You're completely missing the idea of copyright as applied to a paper.

    Please do enlighten us!

    The work that is copyrighted is the paper itself, not the research described within. You can build your research on the results of others absolutely normally - and that's what Newton meant. Read, do research based on it, write a new paper.

    Sure, writing new papers is one possibliity. But it's not the only way to collaborate.

    Fair use makes it even possible to cite the parts you want to discuss, if necessary. I can't really think of anything more you could ask for, anything "more free".

    Fair use is a defense, not a right. It's not perfect, and it can be messy to defend in court (or so the lawyers tell me). Why wouldn't some scientists want to make their research and their ideas *even more* accessible to those who wish to remix them and/or use short/long excerpts?

    On the other hand, building your paper on someone else's paper by just modyfing the relevant parts is not in any way helpful for science - and that's the definition of derivative work here.

    What are the "relevant parts"? And are you certain that no useful science can come from borrowing data/charts/text from an existing paper beyond what Fair use would allow?

    Example: I write a 100 page paper about monkey butts. Let's say it's about hair color and distribution. I include a lot of really useful pictures of monkey butts and graphs of the statistics thereof.

    Someone else wants to write a new paper about monkey butts and realizes that they could use all of my existing charts and pictures as their data and come to some new and very interesting conclusions. Their paper is about cancerous growths, and it's not a critique of my paper, so they can't just suck up my data, pictures, and prepared charts and claim Fair use.

    If my paper were under CC-BY-ND, they would probably be SOL. Let's say that I had since died (bad monkey stew), so they couldn't ask me for permission.

    If, however, my paper were under CC-BY-SA, then they would be able to re-use all of my lovely scientific shit.

    In fact, if you do something like this, you're a lousy, lazy scientist - if you can fit your results into an existing paper like that, you probably haven't done anything new and worth reading.

    Or maybe the original scientist missed something? Or maybe there's a new, novel way to use his reasearch and copyrighted materials? (see above)

    ND-free licenses are extremely useful for code, potentially useful in art, but worthless in science. There's no value added here.

    When someone talks about "value-added" in terms of science, it raises a red flag for me. Why does science have to be about "adding value"? Sure, there are a lot of people and a lot of companies that do a lot of hard science, and bully for them. But I don't have to argue that all of them should eschew the ND clause, I just have to show that some scientists have valid reasons for avoiding it.

    Seriously? You consider only completely open or completely closed position as non-hypocritical? What you're saying is just pseudophilosophical mumbo-jumbo, based on a fundamentalist understanding of "information wants to be free".

    Any half-open or half-closed position seems like a very hard position to argue. Bright lines, as any lawyer will tell you, are easy: Everything falls neatly to one side or the other. As I stated above in my answer, perhaps the "No Derivatives" clause actually legally accomplishes something quite different from its generic meaning in everyday English, and so some classes of "derivative works" of a paper marked ND are actually allowed. My point is that it is sad that the term is named "No Derivatives" when a scientist seems interested (if not intent) upon sharing their work with the world at large via an "Open Acces

    --

    coding is life /* the rest is */
  31. OT: Your tagline... by robsku · · Score: 1

    Just wanted to say my compliments on you tagline... it actually made me feel a bit nauseous, and that's a lot from a tagline!

    --
    In capitalist USA corporations control the government.
  32. Re:Where's CC-BY-SA? by akozakie · · Score: 1

    I smell a troll (hint - first sentence), but I'll bite. At least partially.

    First of all - thank you for explaining to me what peer review is. Having been on both sides of it and working every day with other scientists, some a lot better than me, I must have completely misunderstood. What I meant was: your paper will only be shown to a few selected reviewers and if they say no, it won't make it into the journal. That's quite incompatible with strict (or rather "fanatic") "information wants to be free" approach.

    Why does science have to be about adding value? Because that's the whole point. You add nothing - you shouldn't publish. Or are you really arguing for publishing papers on new results from a well known experiment just to say "nothing new or unexpected was seen"? Ah, I get it. You only see "value" as something monetary. Well, sorry about that, too much time spent with corpo-drones, I guess. I meant scientific value - discoveries, nontrivial new data, hypotheses, etc.

    What if the original scientist missed something? Well, you cite him and write a short paper explaining what you found. Why republish the graphs, pictures, original text?

    If you think that half-open or half-closed positions are hard to argue - why do you discuss CC licenses? They are half-open. Only public domain is fully open. Anything else imposes some restrictions.

    If your monkey guy already died, in any sane copyright system his work would be fair game very, very soon. Unfortunately most copyright systems are now insane. Anyway - in that case just cite, don't republish. You have the right to do that.

    Is there anything special about having a doctorate? Well, being a PhD and knowing a lot of people with different degrees, I can tell you - absolutely nothing. It is sometimes useful with people who trust titles, but the reality is: not everyone can get one, but at the same time not everyone who can, does (and some who really shouldn't somehow do). A doctorate is a weak hint about how good someone is, at most.

    What I meant about "specialized stuff" is that few people are competent to judge a given paper. It is very hard to build a more open trust-based system. I'm competent in some fields, so I might be trusted, but who will stop me from rating a paper on quantum physics? It's much easier with code or art.

    The reason for ND is exactly what you said - clear divisions are easiest. Plagiarism is ethically very bad in science. A paper getting most of it's quality from the original is a clear case, but one that clearly adds something very important may not be, even if they both are equally similar to the original. Amount of text/graphs/whatever is not enough to judge that. So the dominant choice is to disallow any reuse beyond fair use unless you get permission first. Simple and works well. Sometimes too limiting? True. Oh, well. The other clear option is worse - allow any reuse, and you'll get too many very weak papers. Why is it worse? MONEY. Criteria for scientists are clear - number of publications and general quality of the journals. It's a flawed system, but that's real life - the people doing the evaluation cannot review every paper separately. If full reuse is ok, you can try to flood with small changes to good papers, something will squeeze through - and the system breaks.

    Anyway, feel free to not use ND in your papers, I don't mind. As you can see, most scientists think otherwise. Given that most of those I know think that way and at the same time willingly make their own code open source, I'm willing to assume that there really is a difference. Unless most(*) of the scientists are just stupid or misguided. Go ahead, preach.

    (*) see percentages in the summary

  33. depends on the licence you issue under by fantomas · · Score: 1

    Plagarism exists in closed journals as well. It didn't start with the open access journals movement. You as an author can declare how you'd like your work to be protected (look up "creative commons licences" if this is new to you). Whatever licence you issue under, including the closed journal copyright agreements that are very restrictive, people may rip off your work.

    Visible to all is what many people would like to achieve! Certainly, some of us don't like the idea that the tax payers pay for our work and then have to pay again to view the results of our work. They paid for it so they should be able to see what we write up...