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GNU Texinfo 5.0 Released

Four years after the last release, version 5.0 of Texinfo, the GNU documentation language, has been released. The primary highlight is a new implementation of makeinfo info in Perl rather than C. Although slower, the new version offers several advantages: cleaner code using a structured representation of the input document, Unicode support, and saner support for multiple output backends. There are over a dozen other improvements including better formatting of URLs, improved cross-manual references, and a program to convert Perl POD documentation to Texinfo.

24 of 173 comments (clear)

  1. Things you don't hear every day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    "Nobody could understand the source code anymore without massive doses of caffeine... ao we decided to rewrite the whole thing in Perl."

    1. Re:Things you don't hear every day by c0lo · · Score: 3, Funny

      "Nobody could understand the source code anymore without massive doses of caffeine... ao we decided to rewrite the whole thing in Perl."

      Oblig xkcd

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    2. Re:Things you don't hear every day by one+eyed+kangaroo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A witty response, but really this is getting a bit tired.

      I suppose people are free to keep reading the same old, self-reinforcing sources that insist that Perl is somehow a language of the past. And if they read enough of these cliches, the anti-Perl FUD may seem to be accurate, but as any developer who spends time wrestling with real-world problems in modern Perl will attest, the so-called modern Perl ecosystem is, (just like the modern Python or PHP ecosystems), a fabulous place to work in.

      I work in all three.

    3. Re:Things you don't hear every day by VortexCortex · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "Nobody could understand the source code anymore without massive doses of caffeine... ao we decided to rewrite the whole thing in Perl."

      Oblig xkcd

      Obligatory Rebuttal xkcd

      This is interesting for two reasons:
      0. It was Perl's built in features, such as regex, system calls, and ability to be terse enough to enter a solution on a single swinging pass that make it an obvious choice -- It was made for this type of job.
      1. I'm confident that if we have not already, we will soon reach a point where entire discussions can be composed of no text other than xkcd links.

  2. man texinfo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Can't be much use, it doesn't have a man page.

  3. Re:Will an end user notice this speed degradation? by larry+bagina · · Score: 5, Insightful

    how often do you run makeinfo? Probably never directly. And only indirectly if you're compiling and installing a GNU package from source (I mean, who else even uses it? )-- in which case configure checks and compilation times are the bottleneck, not makeinfo

    --
    Do you even lift?

    These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

  4. Default to HTML yet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I haven't used TexInfo for years, but what I remember most was the absolutely abysmal standalone "info" reader. That thing was the biggest piece of shit I've ever seen in any program. Hopefully they've abandoned the crappy "info" format and all of the shitty standalone readers to view info documents, and just use HTML by default now.

    1. Re:Default to HTML yet? by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 4, Insightful

      have you seen the HTML that gets generated from TeXInfo?

      Yes. It's usually broken up into a massive hierarchy with a couple of sentences per page. You'll get cramps clicking on the navigation links while searching for the particular thing you need to find like a needle in a haystack.

      Plain old man pages (especially when nicely rendered in KDE's Konqueror web browser by typing "#program-name" into the URL box) are almost invariably superior to the corresponding Texinfo docs converted to html.

  5. Speed. by Atzanteol · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I love how a language that was "fast enough" in the '90s is now suddenly "too slow" in 2013.

    What's with the "I need all my code hyper-optimized" crowd on /. these days? We running a Gentoo help forum I didn't notice?

    --
    "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

    - Charles Darwin
  6. Re:Perl POD is a good man input format by jgrahn · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It's very handy for generating both nroff man pages and their HTML counterparts from the same input text. Being extremely simple, it raises no barrier to writing man-page type documentation.

    Neither does nroff -man. If you're in a position where you'd want a man page, a percieved complexity in writing one in nroff is no excuse. Read man(7), groff_man(7) and groff_char(7), and look at some example man pages for inspiration.

    Also, if the cvs(1) man page of CVS 1.12.13 is a typical example of what Texinfo generates, I strongly recommend against using it for this. It's ugly and hard to read; doesn't really look like a man page at all.

  7. Do not want by GlobalEcho · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Allow me to initiate the inevitable hatefest:

    Every time I run man and get a pointer to texinfo, I want to beat my head on the keyboard. I do not have the time, once again, to look up those obscure keyboard commands so that I may navigate laboriously through the documentation. It's time to interrupt my command-line workflow, go to the nearest GUI and run a web search for the nearest HTML manual.

    1. Re:Do not want by Nimey · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Agreed. The worst is when a package has a half-assed manpage that points to the info documentation, and when you fire up info it's the exact same stuff as the manpage.

      Texinfo should be retired in favor of HTML for when there's too much documentation for a man page.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    2. Re:Do not want by sombragris · · Score: 5, Informative

      Try pinfo. From the description:

      Pinfo is an info file viewer. It was created when the author, Przemek Borys, was very depressed trying to read gtk info entries using the standard tools.

      Pinfo is similar in use to lynx. It has similar key movements, and gives similar intuition. You just move across info nodes, and select links, follow them... Well, you know how it is when you view html with lynx. :) It supports as many colors as it could.

      Believe me, it's a lifesaver for reading info pages.

      --
      -- Look to the Rose that blows about us--"Lo, Laughing," she says, "into the World I blow..."
    3. Re:Do not want by swillden · · Score: 4, Funny

      I do not have the time, once again, to look up those obscure keyboard commands so that I may navigate laboriously through the documentation.

      What obscure keyboard commands? They're just the keybindings for the help system of the One True Editor. If you are using something inferior and have therefore memorized some truly obscure keyboard commands instead, how is that their fault?

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    4. Re:Do not want by dbIII · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It was even worse when you type "man foo", get a message telling you man is evil and to use info, then the info gives you nothing but a placeholder. The gnome stuff was full of that (gconf stuff especially) before they decided to not even bother pretending they had documentation.
      Back in the day doing "man grub", getting a rude message to use info, then "info grub" and getting a "grub is wonderful LILO sux" message and no documentation was definitely one of those moments where I wanted to beat somebody's head with a model M keyboard.
      At least "pinfo" can be used without having to spend more time working out how to use the info tool than reading the documentation.

    5. Re:Do not want by ais523 · · Score: 3, Informative

      info shows the manpage by default if the info documentation isn't installed. So what you're seeing is probably a packaging problem, where the documentation exists but, for whatever reason (perhaps you're using a Debian-based distro and forgot to explicitly ask for it), wasn't installed on your computer.

      --
      (1)DOCOMEFROM!2~.2'~#1WHILE:1<-"'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"
  8. HTML from the 1990s by tepples · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The 1990s, when HTML documents were readable and not stuffed to the gills with ads and social recommendation detritus. Really all a plain-jane HTML document is missing is a max-width:36em on body to make line lengths sane and a width=device-width on the viewport to make tablets not render it zoomed out.

  9. Oblig oblig XKCD by swm · · Score: 3, Funny
    1. Re:Oblig oblig XKCD by Unknown+Lamer · · Score: 4, Interesting

      What I find interesting about this Perl rewrite is that Guile, ostensibly the official scripting language of GNU, has had excellent structured texinfo support for years now. It uses stexi which has the same structure as sxml, so you gain access to all of the really great Scheme XML processing tools, including SXSLT which is basically ideal for spitting out arbitrary formats.

      --

      HAL 7000, fewer features than the HAL 9000, but just as homicidal!
    2. Re:Oblig oblig XKCD by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Being the official anything of the GNU project pretty much guarantees that no other part of the GNU project will use your stuff.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    3. Re:Oblig oblig XKCD by LizardKing · · Score: 3, Informative

      Whenever I install Debian or a derivative of it, I always find it includes Guile, but that no packages depend on it. The only reason it exists is because RMS didn't like Tcl, which was the up and coming glue language at the time. Despite its shortcomings, Tcl was a very nice language to extend, whereas Guile was (and probably still is) an incomplete dialect of Scheme that only satisfies the Lisp obsessives.

  10. Just an End User by rueger · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I very happily gave up on man pages (and variants thereof) years ago because they were too obtuse and circular to be useful to me, a mere end user. Early on I figured out that the basic rule of man pages was that the one you need relied on you already having read and digested fifteen others, each of which relied on you having read an digested fifteen others.... actually finding what you needed was an endless exercise in frustration.

    Google + Forums is what real people rely on.

  11. Re:Will an end user notice this speed degradation? by deepsky · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Texinfo produces very nice paper manuals effortlessly. With Docbook one has to dive into XSL-FO unpleasantness.

  12. Re:Perl hater by tibit · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I think that calling C "portable assembly" is really a bit untrue. One of the core features of most any machine language is that flags are part of the result of many computing operations. Yet C completely removes access to it.

    Suppose you have a code that adds two things, then jumps on overflow. On most machines that's two instructions if the operands have the right size. You look at it, and the intent is obvious: we add, then jump on overflow.

    Things are seriously wrong (IMHO) if a higher level language completely obfuscates this and requires code where it's not obvious at all what you mean! Heck, what's worse, each compiler likely requires slightly different code so that the meaning is extracted by the optimizer and the correct assembly output is produced without paying both code size and performance penalties! In C, the best you can do on a good compiler is to have an inlineable function that returns the numerical part of the result, uses comparisons to "recreate" the detection of overflow, and returns the overflow condition in a char* out-parameter. If the optimizer is good, it'll recognize that the out parameter accesses an automatic variable in the caller, and that your comparison is just checking for overflow. This code, while portable C, will perform horribly as soon as you compile it without state-of-the-art optimization capabilities. I'd think that means that if your compiler wasn't released in the last year or two, and isn't a mainstream decently optimizing one (like gcc, llvm, visual studio), you're out of luck. On many platforms a saturating increment/decrement is also two or three assembly instructions at most, without jumps -- but good luck getting a compiler to actually emit such code.

    I think that providing no way to access the flags part of arithmetic operation results is one of the biggest oversights in C. I'd think that every platform C runs on provides such flags.

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.