Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

For Businesses, the College Degree Is the New High School Diploma

Posted by Soulskill on from the education-inflation dept.

Hugh Pickens writes "The NY Times reports that a college degree is becoming the new high school diploma: the new minimum requirement for getting even the lowest-level job. Many jobs that didn't require a diploma years ago — positions like dental hygienists, cargo agents, clerks and claims adjusters — increasingly requiring a college degree. From the point of view of business, with so many people going to college now, those who do not graduate are often assumed to be unambitious or less capable. 'When you get 800 résumés for every job ad, you need to weed them out somehow,' says Suzanne Manzagol. A study by Georgetown University's Center on Education and the Workforce found that more than 2.2 million jobs that require a minimum of a bachelor's degree have been created (PDF) since the 2007 start of the recession. At the same time, jobs that require only a high school diploma have decreased by 5.8 million in that same time. 'It is a tough job market for college graduates but far worse for those without a college education,' says Anthony P. Carnevale, co-author of the report. 'At a time when more and more people are debating the value of post-secondary education, this data shows that your chances of being unemployed increase dramatically without a college degree.' Even if they are not exactly applying the knowledge they gained in their political science, finance and fashion marketing classes, young graduates say they are grateful for even the rotest of rote office work they have been given. 'It sure beats washing cars,' says Georgia State University graduate Landon Crider, 24, an in-house courier who, for $10 an hour, ferries documents back and forth between the courthouse and his company's office."

32 of 728 comments (clear)

  1. And people wonder why the US is going broke... by ggraham412 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Really, does it take 4 (or is it 5 now!) years to train people to be file clerks?

    1. Re:And people wonder why the US is going broke... by bbeesley · · Score: 5, Insightful

      yes apparently...unless of course you are HR and have the responsibility of weeding potential candidates for that you just need the ability to blindly check resumes for a list of arbitrary requirements

    2. Re:And people wonder why the US is going broke... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      We need a "WTF?" mod choice...

    3. Re:And people wonder why the US is going broke... by unixisc · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Precisely!!!

      This is one of the tragic developments when every job - right down to a janitor's - requires a degree. There are plenty of jobs which do not require anything more than high school, and indeed, people who drop out and go for these are sensible in not wasting time for something they're not meant for. Just as not everybody's gonna be a PhD, similarly, not everybody is gonna be a bachelors or masters. Things like truck drivers, file clerks, postal workers, AAA workers, pizza delivery guys - all of these are important jobs that need to be filled, and none of them require college degrees.

      In fact, by requiring higher educational qualifications for these lower level jobs, while the price of education is going up due to the resultant increasing demand, the value of it is going to the toilet. It's a cliché that one needs a good education to be successful - and by successful, I don't mean being one of those party goers in Madison Avenue or Beverly Hills. I mean anybody who can nail a job and lead a content family life. By requiring an education for every job, it just artificially shoots up living costs, puts greater burdens on schools & colleges, and forces overqualified people into the workplace - or more kids staying at home w/ their parents.

      For the lower level jobs that don't require much education in & of itself, a better metric would be to pick employees based on character, as opposed to education. Is s/he someone who's dedicated to the job, punctual, honest and capable of sticking to a job for a reasonable amount of time? Too many people in the work force - particularly younger workers - change jobs every few months, which is a telltale sign of a lack of commitment and eager to try making a fast buck. Why not weed out those, instead of checking whether the girl you are gonna hire as a secretary or someone who'll work in the office cafeteria has a Masters degree? This is the result of too much of an emphasis being given on education - even when it's not needed!

    4. Re:And people wonder why the US is going broke... by hawguy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      yes apparently...unless of course you are HR and have the responsibility of weeding potential candidates

      for that you just need the ability to blindly check resumes for a list of arbitrary requirements

      I've found that our HR department does a much better job of screening candidates than I do as the hiring manager -- I don't really have the time to adequately screen 300 resumes, so I'll make a first pass and screen on criteria that I can filter out using the candidate management system -- desired salary range, education level, years of experience, and the 3 questions that candidates have to fill out while applying.

      And a note to job seekers: when you apply for a job online and the system asks you to answer a few specific questions about the job before you submit your resume, fill out those questions carefully, because those are weedout questions, when the hiring manager scans the list of candidates, he's not even going to look at your resume if he doesn't like the answer to those questions.

      And be realistic with salary ranges, entering a range that's unrealistically low is as bad as one that's unrealistically high... don't assume that a low salary will guarantee that you'll pass the screening. If someone is applying for a senior developer position and includes $20 - $30K in his acceptable salary range, I'm not even going to look at his resume because he either doesn't know what someone in his position should be earning, or he's not good enough to command a reasonable salary.

    5. Re:And people wonder why the US is going broke... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      How about weeding them out according to character? Like how many candidates do you see who spend just a few months on a job before hopping to the next? Guys who just can't commit themselves to one thing for a reasonable amount of time (read: 3 years). I am a recruiter and I see several profiles where candidates are in a job only for a few months before they're on to their next. Base the selection criteria on their actual achievements in their past jobs, as well as their reputation for committing to something before bailing. That's a much better criteria on which to base a future employee selection

    6. Re:And people wonder why the US is going broke... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Arbitrary requirements are there for a reason: CYA. In order to avoid expensive litigation and settlements in a number of states, it's a very good idea to have enumerable reasons and missed requirements for not hiring someone.

      A college degree is simply a way to pare down the number of candidates you have to evaluate. If you have a position that states a Bachelor's degree is required and there are 500 applicants, 300 of which have college degrees, you have the ability to very quickly and more importantly, in a very riskless way, eliminate 200 candidates for the position.

      Do you think most hiring managers or team managers give a flip if your entry-level helpdesk or file clerk or what have you has a degree? Not even in the slightest. They care about the fact that they can safely and quickly eliminate potential candidates for said position when a large number of people apply.

    7. Re:And people wonder why the US is going broke... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Oh bullshit.

      If my business ever grows to the point of needing H.R. this will specifically left out of their jobs. We're in a situation in the U.S. right now where anyone with a unique background or who doesn't nicely fit into an H.R. cubby hole isn't getting a job and it's a travesty. It's letting very smart and capable people sit by the side of the road while the people who simply play the game right get in.

      All these H.R. rules, all the bullshit with resumes is holding things back. I would rather someone with real knowledge spend some time with the "300 resumes" than someone who thinks Microsoft Office is high tech sift through and let good candidates hit the trash because they have missed on check mark on the form.

    8. Re:And people wonder why the US is going broke... by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I went to get a masters degree in an area outside of my original studies because I wanted to move into technical jobs. I didn't have experience yet but I thought that all education was good and I would make it clear that I went to school to *learn* and I was willing, even with an advanced education, to start at the bottom and work up.

      It darn near killed my career. *Every* HR drone has been taught that the only reason to go to school is to get more money. EVERY one.

      It didn't matter what I put into the cover letter. It didn't matter what I said. Master's Degree = roundfile. It didn't matter that the company could get a well educated worker at a bargain price.

      The fact that H.R. can not see beyond simple rules and labels is hurting corporations. The fact they're too stupid to understand this simply backs up my point.

    9. Re:And people wonder why the US is going broke... by tepples · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If someone is applying for a senior developer position and includes $20 - $30K in his acceptable salary range, I'm not even going to look at his resume because he either doesn't know what someone in his position should be earning, or he's not good enough to command a reasonable salary.

      So what should a junior developer with no full-time experience put down as an acceptable salary range? In general, what steps should one take to learn "what someone in his position should be earning" for each combination of job title, years of experience, and location? Is there a widely accepted set of reliable statistics?

    10. Re:And people wonder why the US is going broke... by spire3661 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because a college degree is out of reach for a huge swath of people. I had to wait until i was 26 to be able to afford college because my parents were worthless fucks. It took me that long to stabilize after their horrible parenting and I still had to have counseling to be able to go to class. Check your fucking privilege dude.

      --
      Good-bye
    11. Re:And people wonder why the US is going broke... by epyT-R · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Perhaps if you can justify why someone needs a bachelors to ferry documents, pizzas, flip burgers, clean bathrooms, stock shelves, or run cash registers, your logic might have basis in reality. Your fallacy equating non-college degreed status with 9th grade dropout is priceless as well.

      All this 'overeducation' does is water down the significance. It does not necessarily make for a more productive/happy/content workforce. Why would someone with a bachelors be happy with any of the above jobs? You speak of commitment and follow through, but where would that motivation come from if they're just there because of a bad economy? ..vs someone who truly needs the job because they're simply not capable of collegiate level work? If the minimum required education to work $10/hr jobs these days creates a debt of 50k or more, it's no wonder so many are out of work with no way back in. These barriers are way outside the line of reason and are a typical symptom of an overly bureaucratic, top-heavy society that values irrelevant paperwork over actual, tested ability, attitude, and willingness.

      People like you are the opposite of those who cry victimhood and are as much a part of the problem. This 'cry of the successful' is basically 'I did X so anyone who doesn't is a lazy fuck'. I'd like to see you give up your decent job and clean toilets for the rest of your life. You wouldn't, so quit demanding everyone else hit your standards just so they can have the 'privilege' of cleaning your shit for scrap wages...or is it you'd rather keep these people jobless so you can complain about their 'laziness' just to feel better about yourself?

      myopic is a perfect nick for you.. It fits your position perfectly.

    12. Re:And people wonder why the US is going broke... by hawguy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Oh bullshit.

      If my business ever grows to the point of needing H.R. this will specifically left out of their jobs. We're in a situation in the U.S. right now where anyone with a unique background or who doesn't nicely fit into an H.R. cubby hole isn't getting a job and it's a travesty. It's letting very smart and capable people sit by the side of the road while the people who simply play the game right get in.

      All these H.R. rules, all the bullshit with resumes is holding things back. I would rather someone with real knowledge spend some time with the "300 resumes" than someone who thinks Microsoft Office is high tech sift through and let good candidates hit the trash because they have missed on check mark on the form.

      That's great that you have the time to adequately screen every candidate, but when I have 5 job reqs open, each with 200+ resumes to screen, I really don't have the time to look at each resume (and I know I'm not the only one), so answer those screening questions carefully.

      If you have a unique background, then find another way to get your resume in front of the hiring manager. This is where social networking comes in handy. I've had candidates track me down on LinkedIn and email their resume that way - I always look at those resumes since I know that it's not someone who's shotgunning his resume across every open job posting they can find regardless of relevancy to his experience.

    13. Re:And people wonder why the US is going broke... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The problem is that this process selects people who were foolish enough to take on student loan debt when they only have the skills for a highschool-level job. It would be smarter to throw out the people with degrees when filling low-level positions.

    14. Re:And people wonder why the US is going broke... by HeckRuler · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The problem is that no one really wants to have a shit job. And most of these kids are perfectly competent enough to go be a biologist, a lab tech, a philosophy consultant (as if that was a job), but there are plenty of people that are better then they are and they can't get a job in their field. So they drop down a peg and go be a pizza boy. And it turns out there enough that drop down that all pizza boys are now expected to have a college degree.

      If you have an average US highschool grad who can afford to go to college, wouldn't you tell him to go get a degree? It's a real downer to accept that, even though you were smart enough and had enough money, that you probably shouldn't even try to get a good life. That you should lie down and accept a blue-collar job of hard work and a shitty retirement when you're too old to break your back every morning. There's a big push to be successful. That's normal. And success is pretty much defined as getting a good job, by having a good degree.

      You're looking at it from the perspective of people hiring. That they really shouldn't put so much weight on a degree. But from the hiree's perspective, OH DEAR GOD YOU NEED A DEGREE. The split used to be those with a college degree and those without. Right now there is another split is between people with worthwhile degrees; science, technology, engineering, and math, and those with degrees like philosophy, history, or English. Too many people for too long felt that ANY sort of degree would guarantee a good life. That's no longer true. It puts you above the have-nots, but not by far.

      I think we need more tracking in highschool. To set people up for their path. Either meaningful college, tech schools, or straight to the workforce.

    15. Re:And people wonder why the US is going broke... by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Precisely!!!

      This is one of the tragic developments when every job - right down to a janitor's - requires a degree. There are plenty of jobs which do not require anything more than high school, and indeed, people who drop out and go for these are sensible in not wasting time for something they're not meant for. Just as not everybody's gonna be a PhD, similarly, not everybody is gonna be a bachelors or masters. Things like truck drivers, file clerks, postal workers, AAA workers, pizza delivery guys - all of these are important jobs that need to be filled, and none of them require college degrees.

      In fact, by requiring higher educational qualifications for these lower level jobs, while the price of education is going up due to the resultant increasing demand, the value of it is going to the toilet. It's a cliché that one needs a good education to be successful - and by successful, I don't mean being one of those party goers in Madison Avenue or Beverly Hills. I mean anybody who can nail a job and lead a content family life. By requiring an education for every job, it just artificially shoots up living costs, puts greater burdens on schools & colleges, and forces overqualified people into the workplace - or more kids staying at home w/ their parents.

      For the lower level jobs that don't require much education in & of itself, a better metric would be to pick employees based on character, as opposed to education. Is s/he someone who's dedicated to the job, punctual, honest and capable of sticking to a job for a reasonable amount of time? Too many people in the work force - particularly younger workers - change jobs every few months, which is a telltale sign of a lack of commitment and eager to try making a fast buck. Why not weed out those, instead of checking whether the girl you are gonna hire as a secretary or someone who'll work in the office cafeteria has a Masters degree? This is the result of too much of an emphasis being given on education - even when it's not needed!

      What does going to college tell you about a persons character? It tells me they're submissive to authority and lack initiative, which is great for many roles. A person who rejects the idea that he should sit at the feet of the wise old professor and learn and instead go out into the world and get to work making waves might not suck up what you give them and ask you if they're doing ok.

      Mediocrity and reliability go to school. The worst and best reject it.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    16. Re:And people wonder why the US is going broke... by hawguy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      5 positions with 200+ resumes and you can't look at each resume?

      I can read a 1000 page hardcover in three days without pushing it. Granted, a page in a book requires less time than a resume needs but I'm pretty sure I could at least look at each resume within a reasonable time frame.

      Sure, resumes are probably a lot more boring to read but that's why it's called work.

      Reading a book is much different than reading a resume and picking out important details.

      If I'm just going to scan the resume and look for keywords, I may as well just let the online candidate review system take care of it.

      Resumes come in a wide variety of formats, fonts, etc, and candidates rarely put the information I'm looking for on the first page... If I'm really going to read it and see if he's a good fit for the job, then I need to read the whole thing, then go back and look over it again to pick out the parts I'm really interested in.

      It can take 3 or 4 minutes to adequately read and score a resume - 3 minutes times 200 resumes times 5 open job reqs is 50 hours of work, when if I'm lucky, I've got about an hour a day to take care of it.

    17. Re:And people wonder why the US is going broke... by Applekid · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I've never heard someone so vehemently defend mediocrity and taking lazy shortcuts in their job. It's clear the company you work for, that tolerates such nonsense, doesn't really want the best and brightest.

      And with that, they'll get what they deserve.

      --
      More Twoson than Cupertino
    18. Re:And people wonder why the US is going broke... by yurtinus · · Score: 5, Funny

      I too am the shit!

      --
      +1 Disagree
    19. Re:And people wonder why the US is going broke... by LordLimecat · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I like how everyone criticizing this guy brings apparently no relevant experience, instead talking about what they WOULD do, or how fast they can read a book, or how things should be.

      Glad to see that speculative nonsense still gets modded up on slashdot.

  2. Signalling by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    the key statement is:

    'When you get 800 résumés for every job ad, you need to weed them out somehow,'

    As one professor pointed out in an econ class - the real value of a degree is the signal it sends - you are someone who at least can stick to something long enough to finish it. Simply put, it takes some of the workload off of the person looking to hire.

    --
    I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    1. Re:Signalling by madhatter256 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It also signals you are likely loaded with student loan debt and are desperately in need of a job. This will gives you a disadvantage as the company will you see a hard-working, low payable employee. In other words, your ass will get ridden by management and subliminally reminded that they can easily let you go, which will effectively limit your career growth.

      I see this in all types of careers.

      Another source for the devaluation of the 4-year college degree are these Baccalaureate degrees from these for-profit universities.

      Having a masters degree, even more debt, helps you grow in your career and in a few years from now, a masters will be considered a "diploma" in the math/science industry. These for-profit schools are beginning to push these degrees to unsuspecting victims.

      --
      Previewing comments are for sissies!
    2. Re:Signalling by Myopic · · Score: 5, Informative

      First of all, $70,000 income for two people is well above poverty. The national median income for a family of four is fifty-some thousand and the poverty line is below twenty thousand. $70k might not be rich but don't cry too much in your milk because you are doing okay.

      Second of all, an entry-level accountant makes about $45,000 per year. That means you make about $25,000 a year so I assume you are a doing unskilled labor. The $20,000 difference in your salaries is the value of her education, so she'll earn enough to pay for her degree in 3.5 years. For the 48 years after that, her higher salary is gravy.

      If she can scratch up from entry-level accountant to slightly higher rank accountant then she'll get there even faster than three and a half years.

      If you are complaining about this, try to imagine what it would be like if you were both doing unskilled labor. That's real poverty. You're living okay on that education of your wife's. Treat her well, she's your meal ticket with that education of hers.

  3. Indeed by masternerdguy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What a fine way of guaranteeing every citizen massive debts (public or private) for the privilege of a job.

    --
    To offset political mods, replace Flamebait with Insightful.
    1. Re:Indeed by thoughtlover · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Especially when the job's wages they make don't come close to paying off their degree. Honestly, I don't think that a degree says much about a person. Everyone's story is different. I didn't finish my bachelor's degree because I didn't think they had anything useful to teach me --I taught the staff, students, and teachers at the university more about computers than they taught me anything about anything --other than a 4-year degree is a big waste of money. And, I still work at the university after 13 years there, doing quite well. And I have no degree, whatsoever. What the institution wants you to think is they will make you successful...in reality, you have to want to make yourself. No one can do it for you. While I'm sure that a degree backed from an Ivy-league will be beneficial, the true possibility of success is measured out with a person's internal desire to succeed, everyday.

      --
      No sig for you! Come back one year!
    2. Re:Indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You don't see the big picture, mate. By making $25k and even $75k and $150k student loan debt normal they can control you. Like the coal miners of the 1800s they want you indebted to them, even if you can never pay it back, so they can always have leverage on you. They already have more money than you can possibly imagine, so they're willing to sink some costs if they can have permanent control over you, forever. Now you might be thinking you don't need college or that you can pay your loan off, but the odds are artificially stacked against you. They've stacked the deck so that it's nearly impossible to break from the cycle, and if you do manage to ascend they try to integrate you into their culture so you don't try to dislodge them. Isn't that great?

  4. This is spam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I wouldn't use the NY Times to line a birdcage.

    By CATHERINE RAMPELL

    "joining The Times, Catherine wrote for the Washington Post editorial pages and financial section and for The Chronicle of Higher Education"

            * The Chronicle of Higher Education
            * 1255 Twenty-Third St, N.W.
            * Washington, D.C. 20037

    So this is basically a lobbyist for higher ed encouraging everyone to take out education loans.

    No thanks.

  5. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. by mosb1000 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It is inefficient to make everyone spend 4 extra years in school just so lazy recruiters can save themselves a couple hours, to say the least.

    1. Re:That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. by mosb1000 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If the job doesn't require a degree, you shouldn't even be looking at candidates with degrees. Unless you want to be stuck with someone who's just going to be there until they can find a real job. You have it exactly backwards, as does the whole insane job market.

  6. Re:How about a Monster.com for the non-degreed? by Nimey · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I also don't want political correctness, feminism or any of the other progressive mindsets in any of my businesses. Those people can hit the road -- I don't even want them as customers.

    Maybe with luck society will separate into two groups: the politically correct nauseated degreed folks and the self-driven and determined entrepreneurial type.

    You sound like a real douche.

    --
    Hail Eris, full of mischief...

    E pluribus sanguinem
  7. Re:How about a Monster.com for the non-degreed? by swanzilla · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Verified beyond a doubt.

    --
    0 = 1 + e^(Alt something)
  8. Re:How about a Monster.com for the non-degreed? by Nimey · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And what's wrong with that?

    The part where you sound like a fucking sociopath, which impression is reinforced a lot by looking at your website.

    --
    Hail Eris, full of mischief...

    E pluribus sanguinem