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NASA's 'Inspirational' Mars Flyby

astroengine writes "The idea of slingshotting a manned spacecraft around Mars isn't a new one. In the 1960's, NASA carried out a feasibility study into an 800-day flyby mission to the Red Planet. And it would have been awesome. AT&T/Bellcomm mathematician A. A. VanderVeen was working for NASA in 1967 and came up with 5 possible launch opportunities between 1978 and 1986 — two windows in 1979 and 1983 provided the shortest transit time between the planets. But launch mass and fuel requirements were a constant issue. So VanderVeen turned to physics to find an elegant, and scientifically exciting, solution: add a Venus flyby to the Mars trip. Mars, Earth, and Venus align with the sun five times every 32 years, but Venus and Mars alignments happen more frequently making double (Earth-Venus-Mars-Earth) or even triple (Earth-Venus-Mars-Venus-Earth) flybys a viable mission. Unfortunately, the flyby never happened."

24 of 108 comments (clear)

  1. Re:They're all single-launch by almitydave · · Score: 2

    Short answer: the ISS weighs 495 tons. That's a LOT of mass, and would take a lot of fuel, which itself would take even MORE fuel to get into orbit. A better compromise would probably be something like a small capsule with a habitat module, sort of like the Spacelab module for the shuttle.

    Furthermore, the mission profile for a single launch to orbit ejection is much simpler than multiple launches, docking, building a spacecraft in orbit, and then orbit ejection.

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  2. Re:800 day mission by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 4, Funny

    Are we there yet?

    So help me, I will turn this spaceship around!

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  3. Why? by Animats · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What's the point of a manned ballistic fly-by? All the humans can do is operate some instruments for the brief period they're slingshotting around the planet.

    1. Re:Why? by OzPeter · · Score: 4, Interesting

      What's the point of a manned ballistic fly-by?

      Mmmm .. how about to test out technology that hasn't been tried before? That and the fact that landing and boosting off Mars would probably add an order of magnitude of complexity to the project.

      As an aside, I was watching a doco on the moon landings recently and they mentioned that the lunar lander on the Apollo 10 mission (which was a full dress rehearsal for Apollo 11 and came with 8 nm of the lunar surface) was not fueled 100% so that Stafford and Cernan wouldn't be tempted to upstage Armstrong by landing on the moon ahead of him.

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    2. Re:Why? by 0123456 · · Score: 2

      Mmmm .. how about to test out technology that hasn't been tried before?

      Again, there's no real point when you can test it in high orbit instead and be able to return to Earth in a couple of days. You can't test a new engine there easily, but if you're testing a new engine you'd be sending it on an unmanned mission anyway in case it failed.

    3. Re:Why? by erice · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I imagine it'd be like an Apollo 10 mission, a kind of dress rehersal for a future landing.

      I think you mean Apollo 8

      The key difference though is that Apollo 8 and Apollo 10 were testing the equipment that would land Apollo 11 on the moon. The Mars flyby seems to have been conceived as a one-off.

    4. Re:Why? by ThePeices · · Score: 4, Interesting

      What's the point of a manned ballistic fly-by? All the humans can do is operate some instruments for the brief period they're slingshotting around the planet.

      Why climb a mountain? What is the point? All you do once you get to the top is look around, and climb back down again.

      Nobody should ever do something so utterly pointless as climb a mountain.

      amiright?

    5. Re:Why? by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 2

      Thats a lot of money for a tourist trip. How about we let the "mountain climber" pay for his/own gear and trip?

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    6. Re:Why? by erpbridge · · Score: 2

      The same could be said of doing the test of tech remotely from the safety of the surface of the Earth, and being able to return to your own home in a couple of hours.

      For that matter, why did we send people to the moon... or up on the Apollo/Gemini/shuttle or Salyut... and why do we keep sending people to the ISS if they're just going to return later?

      And had there been the capability of unmanned probes in the 15th and 16th centuries, the same could have been said of sending an unmanned probe across the ocean rather than humans traveling for months across a hostile environment that could not support all the basic living needs of humans, necessitating them to bring their own supplies (of desalinated water and food in the event that captured food was not enough.) Once you got a distance out from European port, quick fail back to port was a tough call.

      Actually, same can also be said of climbing Everest or K2.

      Why bother traveling there if its tough to failback easily within a couple days, and you're just going to come back? Just send a robot, and use the money on stuff back at home, right?

      Sometimes, you need to go out there, push the boundaries, take some risks... even if those risks might mean possible death to the explorers, like in the 15th and 16th centuries, they knew that and still went. Because after one person goes forward, takes the risk, whether they succeed or fail, others will follow and push the envelope further. And as they do, they will improve on what was wrong, and expand on what was right.

  4. Flybys by 0123456 · · Score: 4, Informative

    The problem with flybys is that they have most of the complexity of a real Mars mission but don't actually achieve much of anything. You have to survive in deep space for a year or more, but all you see of Mars is a fleeting glimpse over the course of a few hours as you zoom past. Venus is even worse, because there's really nothing to see other than clouds.

    They made a very limited amount of sense when unmanned spacecraft were really dumb, but they make just about no sense today. At best you'd be testing deep space tech for human spaceflight, but you can test it about as well and much more safely in high Earth orbit.

    1. Re:Flybys by ThePeices · · Score: 5, Interesting

      They made a very limited amount of sense when unmanned spacecraft were really dumb, but they make just about no sense today. At best you'd be testing deep space tech for human spaceflight, but you can test it about as well and much more safely in high Earth orbit.

      You are totally correct. How utterly pointless a flyby is.

      Im sure doing something for the fact that nobody in human history has ever done it before, being in the history books, the prestige and kudos that comes with it, im sure none of those things have ever had anything to do with human exploration. Im also sure the engineering and science advances that come out of a flyby like this also has nothing to do with it. Nor would be the information gathered from doing 90% of a Mars landing be of any use too.

      amiright?

  5. 800 days without any possibly of escape by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 2

    All talks of "manned flight to Mars" centered around getting living human beings into a little confined spaced for hundreds of days

    Even if every single thing works out - no one die on route, no accident, no nothing - it would still be an extremely cramped up place for human beings, and the psychological trauma of cooped up inside a holding cell for hundreds of days isn't something easy to deal with

    But what if something goes wrong ?

    What if one of the occupants die in route ?

    What then ?

    Is there any "escape plan" built in ?

    How to deal with the rotting corpse ?

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    1. Re:800 days without any possibly of escape by 0123456 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Is there any "escape plan" built in ?

      The Venus flyby plan allowed an abort in the first few days to return to Earth, but after that you were on your own. I presume the Mars flyby would be similar.

      If you look back in history, few real voyages of exploration had an 'escape plan'. If you're not willing to lose a few crews, you shouldn't be sending them out there.

    2. Re:800 days without any possibly of escape by icebike · · Score: 2

      Burial in space.
      Same as you do at sea.

      It would have been an incredibly uncomfortable journey in 70s or 80's with the equipment on hand at that time.
      They were thinking of using Apollo hardware. That didn't necessarily have to be mean JUST the capsule, because Skylab was a concurrent project, and it too was built out of the Apollo project in its early eays. Skylab was launched 14 May 1973, and it could have served as living space for a longer Mars mission.

      But even Apollo plus Skylab would have been tight quarters for 800 days. Skylab was actually only occupied for 171 days and 13 hours during the three manned Skylab missions. I seriously doubt anyone could have remained sane, or that it could have carried enough food for a mission that long.
      Rotting corpses would be the least of the problems.

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    3. Re:800 days without any possibly of escape by Sarten-X · · Score: 2

      If you look back in history, few real voyages of exploration had an 'escape plan'. If you're not willing to lose a few crews, you shouldn't be sending them out there.

      Bingo. The entirety of human evolution, biologically and technologically, has been driven by trying something and not dying from it. As a result, we've made tremendous progress both is achieving stated goals and in escaping from failure. Everyone trying something new should expect that death is always a possibility, despite the remarkable efforts to reduce its chance.

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    4. Re:800 days without any possibly of escape by rjch · · Score: 2

      Space exploration is to sea exploration like ... well, like hard vacuum is to getting stranded on a beach:

      There's (forgive the pun) astronomically less chance of surviving a fuckup in space.

      Not a fair comparison. What you should have said is along the lines of Space exploration is to sea exploration like a hard vacuum is to many hundreds or thousands of PSI of water pressure crushing you. Either way, you're stuffed if something serious goes wrong.

    5. Re:800 days without any possibly of escape by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Also worth bearing in mind: While the great unexplored destinations of the age of sail were far more forgiving than our neighbour planets, the technology and the level of human organisation was not.

      - The people back then built amazing ships, but their construction methods were based on rule of thumb craftsmanship rather than highly-specced precision engineering.
      - Ditto for materials. They had no ISO reassurance that a given beam of wood would stand up to the forces and stresses of a storm.
      - Their crews weren't all well-motivated, highly-trained, hand-picked experts, but consisted largely of whatever uneducated drunks and kids they could trick on board.
      - They had no idea of what was at the other end of their journey except a big "Here be Dragones" on a map. They usually didn't even know how long their journey would be.
      - They had, at best, primitive understanding of nutrition, medicine, psychology and all the other associated sciences necessary to keep a crew functioning at peak performance on a long mission. 4 months into a sea voyage you could expect much of the crew to be dead, diseased, injured, malnourished, disgruntled and/or half-crazy to boot.
      - They had no contact with home, no mission control, no robotic probes ahead of them or telescopes behind them sending them vital information.

      Sure, we all know heroic stories of the explorers who went out and discovered something big and came back to tell about it, but how many unsung crews and ships were lost because they ran out of food in a windless sea, or had their ship destroyed in a storm, or maybe the ship just sank because of a flaw in the hull's materials or because some crew member didn't do their job properly?

      Basically, they were winging it: Flinging themselves into the complete unknown with little more than a hope and a prayer. Modern space programs, on the other hand, can be meticulously planned and modelled and trained for to the last detail. Sure, unexpected things will happen, (probably a lot less than you might think) but we can plan for those as well.

  6. Re:They're all single-launch by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2

    The moon could be used to change the plane of the resulting solar orbit though.

  7. About launch mass by Edis+Krad · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I never completely understood the need of launching massive ships from Earth whenever we want to leave it. Whenever we wanted to travel the seas, we did not build a massive caravel inland then painstakingly dragged it all the way to the coast. We reasoned it made more sense to build it in a dry dock, that way it only requires a tiny push to get it into the ocean.

    Wouldn't anyone at NASA think that making a "Space Dock" made sense?. Make a bunch of tiny trips to lower earth orbit and build the ship there, so you can make a larger ships to travel further. Mass would not be such a big issue (granted, fuel would be), but at least the escape velocity problem would be non-existent.

    1. Re:About launch mass by DerekLyons · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I never completely understood the need of launching massive ships from Earth whenever we want to leave it. Whenever we wanted to travel the seas, we did not build a massive caravel inland then painstakingly dragged it all the way to the coast. We reasoned it made more sense to build it in a dry dock, that way it only requires a tiny push to get it into the ocean.

      I can't tell if you're actually that stupid or if you're pretending to be stupid to make a point. I mean seriously, you can't grasp the difference between a shipyard (dry dock) that you workers can walk to and needs no especial support - and LEO where everything comes with a launch price cost tagged onto it?
       

      Wouldn't anyone at NASA think that making a "Space Dock" made sense?. Make a bunch of tiny trips to lower earth orbit and build the ship there, so you can make a larger ships to travel further. Mass would not be such a big issue (granted, fuel would be), but at least the escape velocity problem would be non-existent.

      No, space docks don't make any sense - they don't save you any money, in fact they cost you *more* because of the need to support your assembly on orbit. Mass is still a big issue because you have to pay to boost it. Escape velocity is still a problem, because you still need to boost the fuel to LEO and the mass of your spacecraft beyond LEO.
       
      Yes, eventually we're going to have to face the on-orbit assembly issue, but we're a long way from that. We're still in the 'canoe' phase - which you *can* build inland and carry to the water.

    2. Re:About launch mass by FatLittleMonkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is that working in space is hideously expensive. So that the cost of engineering out as much mass as possible to allow you to do everything in a single launch is, bizarrely, cheaper than launching a bunch of heavier-but-simpler-&-cheaper parts to assemble in orbit. For example, right now we can't even launch ship and fuel on separate rockets, which seems a pretty basic skill for a space-faring civilisation.

      As we do more in orbit, particularly as private companies actually start operating human-space-flight (even if it's just to provide in-orbit services for NASA/DOD/ESA/JAXA/CSA/etc), we should see techniques developed to make operations in space cheaper. At some point we'll reach the cross over where assembly is always cheaper than single-launch. After that, someone will inevitably start building a "space-dock".

      It's like reusable launchers. Logically, using a launch vehicle 100 times should be cheaper than using it once and throwing it away; look at aircraft, who would build a single-use plane? But so far we haven't been able to figure out how to make refurbishable craft cheaper than disposable ones.

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    3. Re:About launch mass by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 2

      While I agree, I'd argue that the International Space Station is much like a space ship and was assembled in orbit. That said, it was designed and built on earth.

    4. Re:About launch mass by argStyopa · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I know this is the internets and being a dick is sort of 'operators license' but that was a rather harsh reply to a question that isn't a bad one.

      It's reasonable to ask why we're working on interplanetary manned flights, when one might suggest that it's a better investment of effort (and we gain valuable knowledge about long-term zero-g effects, space construction, and a host of lessons useful to long-duration space trips) to build spacedocks, ie spacecraft construction facilities near Earth.
      Now, no, LEO is not a solution, but L5 would be.

      The first voyage to the new world wasn't in a canoe (well, not on purpose anyway). We made that trip in large, long range vessels, compared to what we were used to sailing at the time.

      We're PAST the canoe stage where you could push off from shore but needed to go right back. We've even sailed to and walked around on Iceland, to carry the analogy to its limits. But we won't usefully go further until we're building vessels that aren't an exercise in stuffing 3 dudes into a phone booth (ie Apollo) for days.

      And (his fundamental point) is that it's STUPID to loft vessels of that size/scope/capability (or significant pieces thereof) out of our gravity well.

      Personally, I see a natural intersection of emerging technologies in autonomous robotics, 3d printing, and (not quite there) mass-drivers pumping raw material from the Lunar surface to an assembly point at L5. Not sure why nobody seems to be talking about it.

      --
      -Styopa
  8. Re:They're all single-launch by deadweight · · Score: 2

    Or just get it over with already and route the flight through Atlanta.