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Will Legitimacy Spoil Bitcoin?

New submitter F9rDT3ZE writes "Salon writer Andrew Leonard examines the U.S. Treasury's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network's (FinCEN) first 'guidance' regarding 'de-centralized virtual currencies,' noting that Bitcoin's supporters call it a 'currency of resistance,' while others suggest that 'the more popular Bitcoin gets, whether as a symbol of resistance or a perceived safe haven in financially troubled times, the more government attention it will inevitably draw, and the more inexorably it will be sucked into existing regulatory structures.'"

27 of 490 comments (clear)

  1. That's the price you pay by allaunjsilverfox2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No matter what you trade, if it has value, the state will look to control it's function.

    --
    Restore the madness of youth's lechery
    1. Re:That's the price you pay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      If only we could put a tax on apostrophe's.

    2. Re:That's the price you pay by JustOK · · Score: 5, Funny

      apostrophe's what?

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    3. Re:That's the price you pay by Entropius · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The idea of Bitcoin, I think, is to give up on the idea of asking the state nicely not to control something, and make something that the state, whether it wants to or not, can't control.

    4. Re:That's the price you pay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      And even then, only possible for a moment.

      That processing power - by the way - is currently equivalent to about 613 PetaFLOPS.

    5. Re:That's the price you pay by shaitand · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "You have a bitcoin. Great! Now how do you know that it's unique? The transaction was signed? Fine. But how do you know that it was legit before you received it?

      No matter how you slice it, there must be a central authority to indicate which are real, and which are false. A hack there can cause all flavors of theft, fraud, and forgery. If you have no central authority, then you risk fracturing your money supply at the exchange level, with each exchange becoming its own authority."

      Having come up with a decentralized P2P solution to this problem is the reason people are so excited about this Bitcoin thing. ;)

      Every piece of every Bitcoin ever to exist has a transaction trail from it's point of origin to the current address at which it resides. Verifying these trails is what miners do. It isn't simply that you send me some bitcoin and I trust it or I trust the hash. You send me Bitcoin and the network begins validating the transaction from the point it was mined to you to me over and over again with it eventually becoming part of that trail.

      In order to have even the tiniest minute fraction of fake Bitcoin you'd have control >51% of all the mining power. The more people mining, the harder that feat is to accomplish. The Bitcoin network can determine if someone actually has >51% btw.

    6. Re:That's the price you pay by shaitand · · Score: 4, Informative

      "What exactly stops the government from coming up with some other collection of numbers with different properties and claiming that they are also bitcoins?"

      Other people agreeing with them? The "properties" of a Bitcoin aren't secret. Claiming something is a Bitcoin isn't something a person does, it is something a computer does. There is a complete transaction trail for every coin back to the moment it was mined including the ability to verify that it qualified at the moment it was mined and every client has a copy of it. When you send me a coin that trail is audited repeatedly by third party miners only becomes part of the audit trail with enough verification.

      Every hacker and cryptographer and their dog has been trying to find a way to do what you suggest for the past four years (though most have already given up) and the best they've found is a theoretical way that requires controlling >51% of all mining power. A government that was willing to spend enough money might be able to do that (there is more demand than mining hardware as it stands so you can't just throw money at it) but the community can tell if someone actually has >51% of the mining power.

    7. Re:That's the price you pay by shaitand · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Party B would never need to sue Party A. The network would reject the fake transaction and it would never become part of the publicly viewable audit log. If you present the relevant address any judge could verify a transaction or lack of one along with anyone else who cared to.

      The anonymity that people talk about with Bitcoin comes from the fact that there is nothing to indicate who any particular address is controlled by. The actual flows of coins between the addresses are all public record. That is why people use coin tumblers. With a coin tumbler you can get Bitcoin back out that is unrelated to the coin you put in. Even then, large transactions and conspicuous sums can be used for forensic accounting.

    8. Re:That's the price you pay by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Tolkein? Is that you?

      --
      Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
    9. Re:That's the price you pay by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Interesting

      No matter what you trade, if it has value, the state will look to control it's function.

      So far, the main entanglements seem to occur because people what their bitcoins to be exchangeable with other currencies, particularly USD. Whether or not you think they are a terrible idea, the (copious) regulations that (sometimes, if you aren't big and important enough) cover bank-like institutions that deal in transactions large enough to be of money laundering concern aren't exactly new or surprising.

      It would be a bit more novel if they were to go after bitcoin-only transactions floating around in the aether; but if the bitcoin system is going to link to conventional currencies, it isn't a huge surprise that regulations from conventional currencies will start to apply at those links. Not wholly unlike connecting a VOIP system to the local POTS. There are some ghastly hellholes where the VOIP simply isn't legal at all(though fewer of those can back it up); but a lot more where you can do whatever you damn well please so long as it's VOIP only; but once you start interconnecting with the POTS system, you get all the exciting legacy regulations associated with the incumbent copper for the last 50 years.

    10. Re:That's the price you pay by demonlapin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is one of the central insights of a book entitled Seeing Like a State, basically that all sorts of disastrous policies have been implemented not because they were likely to be successful at solving some particular problem (e.g., Stalinist collectivization of agriculture gave peasants a certain area of land, regardless of its quality, rather than the traditional division of best-medium-poor lands in roughly equal quantities to each family in a village even though this made it almost impossible for an outsider to identify who owned what) but because they made people's actions more visible to the state and thus more controllable (and more easily taxed).

    11. Re:That's the price you pay by Ol+Biscuitbarrel · · Score: 4, Funny

      M'or'e lik'e L'ov'e'craf't, Im' th'inki'ng.

      Posted from ph'nglui mglw'nafh.

    12. Re:That's the price you pay by mestar · · Score: 4, Informative

      This is a good question, and a normal thing for the network. You would have a temporary chain fork, and the branch that gets the next block first, wins. If the second blocks on two chains also happen at the same time, the third block will be the decider, and so on. That's why it's standard to wait 6 blocks before accepting the transaction.

      So, the longer chain always wins, because, there is a very high probability that more processing power went into it.

    13. Re:That's the price you pay by vux984 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Same applies to VISA transactions. But nobody would ever commit 10^5 visa micro-transactions a day either for the same reason. Transaction fees would make it utterly pointless and counter productive. You'd inevitably switch to some sort of internal coins/points system for the majority of transaction and transact with VISA once a month or so.

      Even iTunes already witholds processing puchases as they happen, and aggregates a day or two worth all at once to minimize their fees.

       

    14. Re:That's the price you pay by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 4, Funny

      lol its sad that i get this.

      *facepalm*

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    15. Re:That's the price you pay by Abstrackt · · Score: 4, Funny

      Looks like someone couldn't afford the apostrophe tax.

      --
      They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. - Terry Pratchett
  2. Re:Transactional Currency, not Safe Haven Storage by complete+loony · · Score: 4, Informative

    easy enough to make that the quantity can expand to support a growing market

    Not even close. They are designed to be hard to make, to only be made at a pre-determined rate, and for new supplies to eventually run out. Bit-coins are designed to be limited in supply.

    --
    09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
  3. Re:bitcoin's value is for it's utopian idealizatio by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Funny

    when you can only process opposition to your worldview in simpleminded cartoon stereotypes, you might have a problem

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  4. Legitimacy by Grashnak · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I can't question its legitimacy until I see some evidence that it has any.

    --
    Life needs more saving throws.
  5. Re:What is their to spoil? by Trepidity · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In what sense has U.S. currency been devalued? Its real purchasing power has remained quite strong over the past few decades; there hasn't been a significant erosion of real purchasing power (i.e. high inflation) since the late-70s/early-80s period of inflation.

  6. Re:Transactional Currency, not Safe Haven Storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You have a PROFOUND ignorance of economics, governance and politics.
    Or, you've been steeped in the Fox Network view of the world.

  7. Re:Quantum computing and bitcoins? by Kal+Zekdor · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The difficulty of mining bitcoins (and hence the speed that a given set of hardware mines bitcoins) is directly proportional to the amount of computing power mining bitcoins. If the amount of computational power in the system goes up, that means that (in the short term), the amount of bitcoins mined in a given period goes up. Every X number (I forget exactly how many) of blocks (the basic structure of bitcoin as a currency, currently each block "creates" 25 BTC, given to the block's solver. The amount of BTC earned per block is halved at distinct intervals, but that's not relevant here.), the bitcoin system (i.e., each client that is creating these blocks, as there is no central server) analyzes the length of time it took solve all X blocks. If that time is less than Y (again, don't recall the exact number, but I think it was a week), then the difficulty of mining blocks is increased by a proportional amount. If it was greater than Y, the difficulty is decreased.

    What this all means is that if someone were to bring an astronomical amount of computing power to bear on mining bitcoins, the difficulty of mining bitcoins would automatically compensate, and the addition of new bitcoins into the marketplace would proceed at the same rate. Granted, the person at the head of all this computing power would be the recipient of most new bitcoins, but the currency would not be destabilized (at least through computing power alone.) There would be other things said person could do to destabilize bitcoins, though, through either Financial or Technical means. They could hoard all BTC they mine, causing the price of BTC to rise. They could sell BTC they mine at ridiculously low prices, causing the price of BTC to plummet. If they comprise more than 60% or so of all computing directed at bitcoin mining, they could hijack the blockchain, and would be able to spend bitcoins they don't own, or double spend their own bitcoins.

    I'm fairly sure that anyone who attempts to hijack bitcoins through raw computing power would end up spending more on said computing power than they would earn from bitcoins. So unless a malicious billionaire or an intrepid hacker organization with a few supercomputers in their botnet decide one day that they really don't like bitcoins, it doesn't seem likely to happen.

  8. Re:bitcoin's value is for it's utopian idealizatio by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Insightful

    i'm not entirely sure when faced with the same mental vomit over and over again why it is my responsibility to find a new creative path to sanity for the crackpot. it is the crackpot's responsibility to make fucking sense

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  9. Bitcoin Legitimacy by fyngyrz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The idea of Bitcoin, I think, is to give up on the idea of asking the state nicely not to control something, and make something that the state, whether it wants to or not, can't control.

    That actually addresses the question in TFS: Will legitimacy spoil bitcoin?

    First, you have to achieve legitimacy. In the USA, the power of currency, essentially, belongs to the federal government. If they perceive a threat (or simply a challenge) to that power, what do you think they will do? Hint: It's going to be directly related to the term "legitimate."

    The thing about the assumption that the state "cannot" control something, is that it is almost always entirely wrong. This discovery is almost always accompanied by wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    There is only one condition under which the state cannot control: When the state itself has been dismantled. And there is absolutely no sign of such a thing, even well out on the horizon.

    Consequently, the answer to the question in TFS is: No. What's going to "spoil" bitcoin are actions of the state. Guaranteed. It won't be legitimacy, because that's permanently and irrevocably out of reach.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:Bitcoin Legitimacy by paiute · · Score: 4, Interesting

      How long would it take the NSA to destroy the bitcoin by devaluing it?

      Why would the NSA/CIA/ETC want to destroy a way for them to fund whatever they want wherever they want with a system they can game to be invisible to oversight? Hell, they probably funded the invention of bitcoin.

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      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
  10. Re:Transactional Currency, not Safe Haven Storage by complete+loony · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Dollars *are* backed by debt. And that debt seemed to be ever increasing, at least up until 2007-ish when the housing market finally imploded.

    The Fed doesn't really control or constrain the supply of money, though many economists still believe that they do. It's the double entry book-keeping rules of the banking industry that predominantly create and control the supply of money. A new loan creates both a future obligation and current spending power that didn't exist before. Sure the bank has to find a small amount of money to meet their deposit insurance, liquidity and capital requirements, but that's tiny in comparison to the value of new loans.

    Since the level of debt is now such a huge factor in the economy, small accelerations and decelerations in the growth of debt have an enormous impact on the economy. And when everyone recently slammed on the debt brakes the economy practically died.

    --
    09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
  11. Re:Transactional Currency, not Safe Haven Storage by swalve · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There is nothing more real about the faith that you'll be able to exchange gold for things you need than that you will be able to exchange dollars. Every currency is based, at some point, on the belief that it will be able to be exchanged for something. It doesn't matter if that faith is direct, as with fiat currency, or indirect, as with metal backed currency. The dollar has been more stable since we got off gold. Yes, inflationary, but stable. That's a good thing. Our currency is worth what people think it is worth, instead of being pegged to the whims of the gold market.