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Higgs Data Could Spell Trouble For Leading Big Bang Theory

ananyo writes "Paul Steinhardt, an astrophysicist at Princeton University in New Jersey, and colleagues have posted a controversial paper on ArXiv arguing, based on the latest Higgs data and the cosmic microwave background map from the Planck mission, that the leading theory explaining the first moments of the Big Bang ('inflation') is fatally flawed. In short, Steinhardt says that the models that best fit the Planck data — known as 'plateau models' because their potential-energy profiles level off at relatively low energies — are far less likely to occur naturally than the models that Planck ruled out. Secondly, he says, the news for these plateau models gets dramatically worse when the results are analyzed in conjunction with the latest results about the Higgs field coming from CERN's Large Hadron Collider. Particle physicists working at the LHC have calculated that the Higgs field is likely to have started out in a high-energy, 'metastable' state rather than in a stable, low-energy configuration. Steinhardt likens the odds of the Higgs field initially being perched in the precarious metastable state as to those of dropping out of the sky over the Matterhorn and conveniently landing in a 'dimple near the top,' rather than crashing down to the mountain's base."

26 of 259 comments (clear)

  1. "A high-energy, 'metastable' state"? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 5, Funny

    That sounds like a cosmic catastrophe in the making. Or has it already happened?

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
    1. Re:"A high-energy, 'metastable' state"? by stevegee58 · · Score: 4, Funny

      It proves the universe is only about 5000 years old.

    2. Re:"A high-energy, 'metastable' state"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Maybe the uni/multiverse had a "reboot" from a prior state?

      Well, that WOULD explain why this universe seems bleak, dark, and depressing. The original universe was probably campier and silly but more beloved by fans before some pretentious jackhole looked too hard at all those physical properties and atomic interactions and decided it needed to be rebooted with black holes, hard vacuums, and the second law of thermodynamics.

      There's probably countless imitation universes out there, too, each one darker and more depressing than the last one in an effort to market them better to the universe-enjoying pan-dimensional youth out there. That continued until the 90s, when the absurdity of it all came crashing in on itself and nearly destroyed the universe-creating industry, and...

      Hang on, what was I talking about?

    3. Re:"A high-energy, 'metastable' state"? by Antipater · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's called a False Vacuum, and yes, it's quite the possible doomsday scenario.

      If you read further down in TFA, you find that this Princeton professor has spent years trying to push his cyclical universe model over the inflationary Big Bang, and experimental results have not been kind to him. In fact, there's no actual mention of the Higgs data playing any part in discrediting the Big Bang here. The entire piece seems to hinge on his saying it's "unlikely" rather than any actual observations.

      --
      Everything is better with chainsaws.
    4. Re: "A high-energy, 'metastable' state"? by Gilmoure · · Score: 5, Funny

      New data requires reevaluation of current theory? Damn you scientific method! Damn you to hell!

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
  2. So, in other words.... by EricTheGreen · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ....we just don't know.

    1. Re:So, in other words.... by ackthpt · · Score: 5, Interesting

      ....we just don't know.

      The thing that bugs me about a Big Bang Theory is where did this singularity come from? Where exactly is it, in some infinite void? Are there more like it, all oscillating between Exapansion and Collapse throughout eternity? For the Universe, as we know it, is only this local body of mass and energy.

      and now i need a quiet corner, cuppa hot cocoa and my teddy bear

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    2. Re:So, in other words.... by almitydave · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Spent all my mod points, but excellent questions. There are, sadly, limits to what we can discover with physical sciences. This has bugged me since I was a kid. I want to know, dammit! The universe is so vast that we will never know or be able to know even a small fraction of what's there. Some questions, as why there is anything at all, will forever be in the realm of philosophy, unanswerable by empirical sciences alone.

      But we keep asking, keep looking, both farther and closer, because we have to know. It's in our nature.

      I like some was partially hoping they'd fail to find the Higgs, and the experiments would point the way to some more fundamental theory, but it seems our current model is actually pretty good as far as it goes. Although I barely understand particle physics, I'm fascinated by all the research on it, and share the desire to understand the nature of our universe at the deepest level.

      But look at me still talking, when there's science to do! (well not by me personally, I have to get back to coding).

      --
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      I'm, you're, he's/she's/it's, we're, you're, they're
    3. Re:So, in other words.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      The idea of "location" with regard to the singularity is a question with no real sensical answer, unfortunately. It's a bit like asking "where is the center of the Earth's surface?". Only, you can't move around on the surface of the Earth, you can't fly over it, and so you only have what you can see, limited by the horizon, in every direction. Even then, any point you pick is completely arbitrary and usually based on some landmark. Much like we can say what our position compared to the center of the galaxy is, but asking about our position in the universe cannot really be answered. It doesn't help that spacetime itself is supposed to have inflated drastically from that singularity (i.e. the singularity *was* the Universe at t=0). In that sense, the singularity is "everywhere".

      But yeah, the unfortunate side effect of the Big Bang event is that information about any state prior to the singularity is effectively lost, or scrambled to the point that it is nigh impossible to figure out. And this is something that bugs a lot of people, including scientists, precisely because it makes these other questions so much more difficult to find answers for.

    4. Re:So, in other words.... by lgw · · Score: 4, Interesting

      A bit of background here: the great data we now have on the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation presents a solid mystery: it's all very nearly the same temperature, yet with steady expansion of the universe opposite sides of the sky would be too separated (by speed-of-light delay) to have temperatures evened out like that.

      In order to explain that, "inflationary" models were invented, which proposed that the very early universe expanded quite a bit faster than the speed of light. I don't quite get why expanding faster makes temperatures more equalized, but I don't doubt the math works. There is some actual evidence for inflation: the temperature variations in the CMBR do look a lot like quantum fluctuations magnified enormously. A lot of work has been done in this area in the past decade.

      Inventing a new mechanic by which space itself grows very rapidly is easy, but inventing one where the expansion was likely to happen, and happen evenly across the universe, and then stop, is hard. The best candidates are tied to the Higgs field - basically saying it was briefly at a meta-stable state where there was no inertia, allowing rapid expansion, but then the symmetry broke and it reached the current stable state.

      The new problem is: all that only works if you assume the Higgs field naturally starts in its metastable state, so even if it's only that way for 10^-lots of a second, that's enough. Apparently, it wouldn't naturally start in that state, and would in fact be quite unlikely to. That unravels everything, because the whole problem being addressed is how unlikely the even temperature distribution of the CMBR is in the first place: a hypothesis that's also quite unlikely to occur naturally doesn't really help much.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    5. Re:So, in other words.... by Charliemopps · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Your questions are wrong because our human minds are not adapted to handle the truth... which is: there was no time and space prior to the big bang... because there was no time that was prior to the big bang. The Big Bang created time and space. Our best measurements and studies have concluded that the universe will not collapse again. It is in an accelerating expansion. It's not slowing down. There will be no big crunch. Are there other universes? Perhaps... but I tended to think that if there are... they are all part of this one same system. All effecting each other, and therefore all part of this universe just in an indirect way... but then I'm just getting into semantics.

    6. Re:So, in other words.... by eggstasy · · Score: 4, Funny

      It's turtles all the way down.

    7. Re:So, in other words.... by Baloroth · · Score: 5, Informative

      I beleive the leading guess is that the universe expands to its limit, then gravity asserts itself, causing all matter in the universe to compress into an unstable singularity.

      No, current observations and theories place the energy density of the universe at below critical value, i.e. it won't re-compress and will keep expanding forever. Actually, thanks to dark energy, the expansion is accelerating (although since we don't know what dark energy is, yet, whether that will continue or even reverse is a very much open question).

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
    8. Re:So, in other words.... by Baloroth · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't quite get why expanding faster makes temperatures more equalized, but I don't doubt the math works

      In order to be in thermal equilibrium, two objects need to be close enough together at one point in time to, well, touch, basically (within each others light-horizon, specifically). Without inflation, parts of the microwave background far apart wouldn't be within each others horizons, so they wouldn't have been able to interact and equalize their temperatures. Inflation solves that by making it so everything was much much more dense in the very early universe, so temperature across the entire (visible) universe could equalize, then expanding very (very very) rapidly so that bits that were within thermal contact are now separated (or rather were separated at the time of microwave background emissions).

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
    9. Re:So, in other words.... by Sperbels · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't think my compass would agree with you.

  3. I knew it! by ackthpt · · Score: 5, Funny

    It wasn't a Big Bang, but a Medium Bang!

    gotta get out my papers, nobel prize for fizziks here I come!

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    1. Re:I knew it! by sribe · · Score: 4, Funny

      It wasn't a Big Bang, but a Medium Bang!

      That's what she said!

  4. Ambiguity in title by Twinbee · · Score: 3, Informative
    The title is ambiguous (in the words "Leading Big Bang Theory"). It could mean either:

    A: Other variations of the big bang theory are safe, just the 'main' version is in trouble
    or....
    B: The big bang theory itself is in trouble, including any of its variations. 'Leading' here would mean big bang theory over say, a steady state universe.

    From what I can tell, the Slashdot title means B due to this quote in the story:

    But if you take the data we’ve been given and just follow your nose, then inflation and the whole Big Bang paradigm seem to be in big trouble,” Steinhardt says.

    Emphasis on "whole".

    --
    Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
    1. Re:Ambiguity in title by Antipater · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Yeah, but a paragraph right after that goes on to talk about Steinhardt's competing Big Bang theory.

      Steinhardt is no novice when it comes to making controversial cosmic claims. For many years, he and some of his colleagues have been developing an alternative 'cyclic model', in which the Universe undergoes a series of Big Bangs and crunches, repeatedly expanding outwards and contracting inwards. Unlike inflation, this framework predicts slight deviations from the smooth Gaussian distribution of temperature fluctuations.

      So it's not like he wants to throw out the whole thing, just the "inflation" variation.

      --
      Everything is better with chainsaws.
  5. Open vs. Closed Universe by Covalent · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Years ago, this was a significant debate, but in recent years the debate was "settled" - the universe's expansion is actually increasing in rate.

    I have always felt that it was wrong to call this settled. The increased rate of expansion of the universe is explained by "Dark Energy", a completely unknown entity with unknown properties. There is no reason why the effects of Dark Energy might change (or even reverse) over time. So, is the universe expanding at an increasing rate? Apparently. Will it continue to do so? I don't think that is even close to answered.

    --
    Great warrior...hrmph! Wars not make one great.
  6. Re:GOOD! by sribe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why do you religious people keep saying that atheism is a religion?

    Because some atheists act in a religious manner.

    We (I am an atheist) cannot prove the non-existance of God. We can use our observations of the world around us and logic to come to a refusal to believe the fairy tales we're taught as children, and this is all in the realm of reason. But those of us who claim to know without doubt that there is no deity have crossed into the realm of faith.

  7. ...not only Higgs "coincidence" by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's not a cosmic catastrophe so much as a physics one, although I'd prefer to call it a physics "opportunity"! Having found the Higgs we already know that there is now an incredible precarious balance even within the Standard Model. The Higgs is a fundamental scalar particle which is a radically different beast from any other fundamental particle we know of. One of the strange properties of the Higgs is that there are corrections to its mass which scale with energy squared.

    This might not sound like a big deal but quantum mechanics means that even at low energies these high energy corrections to the Higgs mass are important. The question then becomes "what energy is our current knowledge of physics good to". Well if we look at the Standard Model of particle physics it is missing gravity so, at the scale where gravity becomes important (about a million billion times higher in energy than the LHC) we know the SM breaks down.

    The problem is that this means the Higgs mass is corrected by a series of terms each of which is ~32+ orders of magnitude larger than the mass itself. This means that you need a cancellation to better than one part in ~10^32 by chance. This is about the same chance as winning the UK national lottery every week for 4-5 weeks in a row or tossing a coin and having it come up heads over 100 times in a row. If either of these events actually happened nobody would believe they happened by chance - there would be investigations into how someone managed to cheat the lottery or you would want to inspect the coin to make sure it did not have two heads.

    There are solutions to this conundrum: Supersymmetry makes all the corrections to the Higgs mass cancel precisely (above some energy scale) and Large Extra Dimensions lowers the scale where gravity becomes important considerably. What would be interesting to know is whether these solutions to the fine tuning problem we have in the Standard Model also solve the fine tuning which this paper suggests that cosmology also has.

    1. Re:...not only Higgs "coincidence" by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 4, Informative

      No - the LHCb data has ruled out large swathes of SUSY parameter space but has certainly not come close to ruling out SUSY. You can hide SUSY from indirect searches like Bs->mu mu by e.g. making SUSY have the same flavour symmetry as the Standard Model. So these searches are incredibly useful at limiting the SUSY parameter space but to really know whether SUSY is there you have to look for direct evidence. I'll start being sceptical of SUSY if after 2-3 years of running the LHC at 13-14 TeV we still see nothing...at that point we will start to have interesting questions about Dark Matter as well if we have not seen it.

  8. Re:Just like they "invented" the force of gravity? by lgw · · Score: 3, Informative

    Just like they "invented" the force of gravity to explain why the planets didn't just go flying off?

    If by "they" you mean "Isaac Newton", then yes. There were certainly ideas better than "celestial spheres" before the Enlightenment, but not a useful theory that gave quantitatively correct results.

    It's easy to propose the idea that "hey, what if the universe expanded really fast early on", but to invent a specific mechanism for that that describes why that happened, and why it stopped, and gives quantitatively correct results for the CMBR data is a lot of work. There have been many such hypotheses - some survived the recent, accurate CMBR data, but those make specific predictions about the Higgs field and will be further culled by the data coming from the LHC.

    --
    Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  9. Of course it's like that if that's what it takes. by anwaya · · Score: 4, Interesting
    By coincidence I went to Stephen Hawking's lecture at Caltech last night, and one of the concepts he discussed was Feynman's "sum over histories" idea.

    If the evolution of a stable universe requires the Higgs field to start out at a metastable point, and if variations in those initial conditions lead to universes which collapse rather than inflating, then "the amplitude" (i.e. the probability that they are the outcome that we turn up in) for those other states is zero. Why? Because those universes all collapse long before we could show up.

    On the other hand, if Steinhardt is correct, then his result shows there is a path to here-and-now through the metastable point, and if that's what it takes to get here, then that's enough: that's what it takes. The amplitude of the entire wave function for the Steinhardt path is non-zero, unlike the functions for the ones that collapsed.

  10. Re:Pink unicorns. by perpenso · · Score: 3, Funny

    We (I am an atheist) cannot prove the non-existance of God.

    This is a dead horse that's been beaten to death so many times we've hardly got a carcass. Yes, actually, you can.

    Let's take the Flying Spaghetti Monster. He's made of spaghetti and two meatballs. We know that these two components neither have sentience or the ability to fly ...

    You don't have kids yet do you? When you do, you will learn that spaghetti and meatballs can indeed fly. :-)