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The Eternal Mainframe

theodp writes "In his latest essay, Rudolf Winestock argues that the movement to replace the mainframe has re-invented the mainframe, as well as the reason why people wanted to get rid of mainframes in the first place. 'The modern server farm looks like those first computer rooms,' Winestock writes. 'Row after row of metal frames (excuse me—racks) bearing computer modules in a room that's packed with cables and extra ventilation ducts. Just like mainframes. Server farms have multiple redundant CPUs, memory, disks, and network connections. Just like mainframes. The rooms that house these server farms are typically not open even to many people in the same organization, but only to dedicated operations teams. Just like mainframes.' And with terabytes of data sitting in servers begging to be monetized by business and scrutinized by government, Winestock warns that the New Boss is worse than the Old Boss. So, what does this mean for the future of fully functional, general purpose, standalone computers? 'Offline computer use frustrates the march of progress,' says Winestock. 'If offline use becomes uncommon, then the great and the good will ask: "What are [you] hiding? Are you making kiddie porn? Laundering money? Spreading hate? Do you want the terrorists to win?"'"

25 of 225 comments (clear)

  1. Deep by roman_mir · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Wow, so deep. Computer is the Internet, Internet is the computer.

    Mainframes are specialised equipment, server farms are almost generic computers with redundancies. The real difference is the cost. Today's server farms would cost many factors more if they were built with specialised mainframes, there is no other real difference, they are really there for the same purpose.

    1. Re:Deep by tarpitcod · · Score: 5, Informative

      Right and there are some big differences:

      Mainframe CPU's tend to have far more error detection and correction. They have safeguards against errors in data shuffling and computation inside the CPU itself. Mainframes tend to offer robust job control, by the time you add decent job control of the level that mainframes offer your network of workstations/servers starts getting complicated
      Mainframes tend to offer decent encryption and security.

      Can you do all these things on a pile of VM's? Sure. Is it cheaper - maybe. Is it fun to manage - not particularly.

      For the point about giving everyone access to all your stuff? Let's see the author prove his point by posting all his personal details, address age, credit card numbers, ssn, medical records, tax returns and let's see how that works out for them..

    2. Re:Deep by Trepidity · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I agree these are all differences for a regular pile of VMs in a server room, but if you look at some of the more developed server farms, they do have a lot of the mainframe-like features, at least on the software side. Google, for example, has pretty full-featured job control layered on top of their server farm.

    3. Re:Deep by swalve · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That stuff is also in hardware, which is only beginning to happen in the commodity pc world.

      For a certain type of workload, at a certain level of necessary uptime, mainframes start becoming cost effective. Fun things like where IBM will install as many CPUs as you want, but only charge you for their time when you use them. This can be very cost effective for businesses with seasonal volume shifts. At some point, paying IBM $1000 an hour for their support is cheaper than paying 20 creeps with greasy hair to change hard drives, stack servers into a rack and fuck up the rollout of new VMs. It's kind of like trucks versus trains. Each have their place, but neither is very good at emulating the upsides of the other.

    4. Re:Deep by Ken+Hall · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I work with mainframes for a living. Specifically, I work with Linux on IBM zSeries mainframe for a bank. The idea is the provide the software depth of Linux with the reliability of the zSeries hardware.

      We get a fair amount of resistance from the Lintel bigots, mostly those who still think of the mainframe in 1980's terms. The current generation of mainframe packs a LOT of horsepower, particularly I/O capacity, in a relatively small box. It connects to the same storage and network as the Lintel servers do, but can one of those do 256 simultaneous DMA transfers? We don't sell the platform as a solution for everything, but we've done the TCO math and we're not that different from an Intel server farm once you factor in the external costs.

      I periodically give a class to the Linux admins on the mainframe in general, Linux on z, and the differences between that and Linux on Intel. If you didn't know where to look, it would take you a while to figure out you're not on Intel anymore. Most of the attendees are surprised at what the current boxes are like.

      This is not your fathers mainframe.

    5. Re:Deep by ArsonSmith · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I build server farms specifically to suck data out of Mainframes and process it specifically because of the cost difference. It is nearly 100x the cost and still takes 10x longer to crunch, index and search 8PB of data on mainframe as it does in a comparatively free Hadoop cluster. The TCO was laughably different.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
  2. Running Virtualization Software.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful
  3. Privacy by MLBs · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's the usual argument. If you have something to hide, you're probably a bad person.
    That "may" be true if the authorities are not abusing their power, or trying to gain more power than the people want them to have.
    As soon as you have even a potentially oppressive regime, privacy becomes essential.

  4. Having worked in both by mbone · · Score: 3, Interesting

    He is wrong, on pretty much every level, even the visual.

  5. Ending maintenance also ends control by h2oliu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One of the points I found the most insightful is that the geeks don't like to take the time to make things work anymore. I remember a colleague saying that there was no better way to kill a hobby than to get it as a job.

    The days of tweaking the OS and hardware as a common practice among the majority of geeks is gone. The field is too broad now. You have to pick which stack, and where on it, you want to hack.

    --
    Ok, I give up, why you?
    1. Re:Ending maintenance also ends control by tarpitcod · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Back in the earlier days of micros it was loads of fun. BYTE was a great read. People wrote their own stuff on their own hardware. There were really fascinating choices in CPU's. Initially there were people using 2650's 8080's, 6502's, 6800's, LSI-11's, 1802's, 9900's. .

      I can't remember the last time when someone actually said something outrageous like 'What architecture would be ideal'. Nowadays it's 'What software layer (implicitly running on x86 Linux boxes) should we use?'

      The performance numbers people talk about are terrible too. Kids who just graduated think 100K interrupts per second is 'good!' on a multi Ghz multicore processor. They just have no context and don't understand how absolutely crappy that is and that even on an 8031 running at 11 Mhz with a /12 clock we could pull off > 20K interrupts per second in an ISR written in HLL!

    2. Re:Ending maintenance also ends control by mikael · · Score: 3, Informative

      And if you know where to look, you can find the whole collection of magazines scanned and available online (http://atariage.com/forums/topic/167235-byte-magazine/)
      The best issues where when they had geek cartoons or photographs of real hardware on the front cover. The real change was when everything went all pastel shaded with the little bod characters in suits. I guess that coincided with the shift from hardware projects to software API programming on personal computers.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    3. Re:Ending maintenance also ends control by tarpitcod · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Try finding out yourself. Ask some kids some simple questions to the new kids:

      Try asking them:
      What's the memory bandwidth of that x86 desktop or laptop roughly? Special points if they break out cache.
      Ask them how many dhrystone MIPS (very roughly) that uP has.
      Ask them the ratio of the main system memory bandwidth to MIPS.
      Ask them the ratio of the main system memory bandwidth to the I/O storage they have.

      They just never get exposed to this stuff. They just have no reference. Now ask them to compare them even to a regular 286 era ISA bus PC: I'll even give you some numbers.

      286/16 ~ 4K dhrystone MIPS on a good day
      Disk (40 MB IDE on ISA) ~ 400K/sec

  6. Mainframes is for those.. by i · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ..that have very big amounts of data, complex data structures and can't afford any errors (especially data corruption) caused by hardware limitations.

    Banks is an example.

    --
    Mundus Vult Decipi
    1. Re:Mainframes is for those.. by jonwil · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The people who use mainframes for big data (like banks and insurance companies) and the people who use clusters and racks of servers for big data (like search engines, social networking sites and other web companies) have totally different requirements.

    2. Re:Mainframes is for those.. by meta-monkey · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think you're confusing Big Data with big, data-reliant companies.

      Banks are OLTP, and require perfect accuracy, [large number] 9s uptime, fast response, dealing with one record at a time.

      Big Data is OLAP, and can sacrifice some speed, accuracy and uptime to operate over millions and millions of records.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
  7. No because by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Are you making kiddie porn? Laundering money? Spreading hate? Do you want the terrorists to win?

    Because I don't want every goddamn marketer out there trying to sell me their shit. I don't want to have to deal some horseshit like this because businesses feel entitled to stick their noses into my business.

    No, you are NOT offering me "convenience" - you are prying.

    As it is, I CAN create a dossier that would make an East German Stazi agent cream his pants by just hitting the credit bureaus, Google, ChoicePoint, ISPs, Cell phone companies, and every other business entity out there that has this need to collect consumer data.

    Something to hide?

    Well, just ask the atheist, gay or lesbian, peace protestor or Muslim who has their identity known what happens to them.

    The uncle of the Marathon bombers who had his face plastered all over the place is headed for some serious shit. You just know that folks are going to vandalize his house, harass him, and give him a lot of shit just because he's related to those kids and a Muslim.

    People are hateful, ignorant, cruel, shallow and just stupid - until proven otherwise. Therefore, it is imperative to keep one's secrets.

  8. Giving up the dream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There was a time when we expected computers to become so easy that everyone could use them. We've given up that dream. Now it's all "managed" again. There are admins and users again, and the admins (or their bosses) decide what the users can do and how. Computing is no longer done with a device you own but a service that someone else provides to you. Yes, you still pay for a device, but that's merely an advanced terminal.

    I blame the users. If they bothered to learn even a little about how things work, they wouldn't give up their freedom so easily. The complacency is staggering. Even people whose job depends on being able to efficiently work with computers often perform repetitive tasks manually instead of learning how to use more of the program they're working with. Of course, with users like that, who refuse to learn how to use what capabilities are already at their disposal, there's a market for the simplest automation performed as a service.

  9. Rinse, lather, repeat by bryan1945 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Not networked, networked, not, networked, on and on. Each cycle begets a new cycle. Now it's just called "the cloud."

    --
    Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
  10. Re:and the mainframe never went away by cellocgw · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Besides the cost, banks are also averse to risk, and change causes risk.

    Wait a minute: did you somehow sleep through 2008? Banks love risk, so long as it's someone else's money they're churning.

    --
    https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
  11. Every 5 to 10 years... by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Someone in the industry realizes that computing is really iterative and what's old will eventually become new again.

    I believe the origin of this periodic realizations is as follows:
    (I intentionally used "jargon" instead of "technique", since the need to create a new term doesn't seem proportional to the actual change in implementation)

    1. A college fresh out get hired at a I.T. farm armed with a new set of computing jargon that impresses human resources.
    2. He applies his version of how things should work to the current workplace and things progress well.
    3. Over the next few years the department grows and new hires are brought in to help meet demand.
    4. The new hires start preaching their version of computing jargon that was created by academia to publish a paper.
    5. The once college fresh out comes to the realization that the new computing jargon are practically synonyms for the previous generation's jargon.
    6. The new hire proceeds to step #1 and the circle of I.T. begins anew.

    The neat thing about this iterative process is that the difference in implementation of the jargon between generation N and N - 1 are small enough to not seem that much different. However the difference in implementation of jargon between the current generation and the people hired 5 to 10 cycles prior can and usually are dramatic.

    I entered the field when distributive computing and storage with localized networks were being created and evangelized. Scientific computing had to be performed at universities and anything serious had to be done by renting time on a supercomputer connected via the internet. Medium sized businesses had to rent time on mainframes to perform payroll or hired firms specializing in payroll which still exists today. Small businesses had no access to computing until personal computers and single user applications came into use. Because of the newer businesses being more familiar with distributive computing than centralized computing, they scaled personal computers up to meet the new demands. This ability to scale computing power up allows the company to grow the computing infrastructure as needed. This was not possible with mainframes. Eventually the company grows to the point that it needs to have their data and application centralized and use data centers to handle the load.

    If you step back and look solely at the physical structure (e.g. data center, clerical offices) it resembles the centralized computing from 50 years ago. However if you look at the actual data and computing flow you'll see that its a hybrid of central and distributed computing that was not imagined in the past 20 years. It's more fractal in nature. Your computing at any given moment can be centralized to your terminal, your home, your office, your department, your company, or even global (e.g. Google, Github).

    I declare this to be known as BTE's law. ;)

    --
    These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
  12. Valid Observation, Poor Argument by Capt.Albatross · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Mr. Winestock's parallels between server farms and mainframes are reasonable, if unoriginal, and the same can be said for his concerns over privacy and social control. His attempt to claim the former as the causative agent for the latter, however, goes wrong right from the start: 'Mini/micro-computers were supposed to kill the mainframe.'

    Not so. They came about firstly because technological advances made them possible, and also because some smart people realized that they would allow us to do things that, in practice, we could not do before. The pioneers of these developments were not interested in reproducing, much less replacing, mainframe computing.

    Turing showed us that the form of our hardware doesn't dictate what we can do with it. To understand the arc of privacy erosion and social control, we need to examine social history and human nature, not the artifacts of technological advance.

  13. GOOGLE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT ERRORS !!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Google, for example, has pretty full-featured job control layered on top of their server farm."

    Google has never cared about errors.

    Who gives a damn if what absolutely positively SHOULD have been the very first result is instead the fourth or the fifth result, or if it appears on page two of the results, or if it somehow magically disappears into the ether because commodity server #XJ42 in rack #43HB on aisle #521JJ in column #447F in building #QQZ1 in server farm #H61M happened to have crashed just as the query response was being assembled?

    Especially if the query involved "Justin Bieber", "Lindsay Lohan", or "Natalie Portman Hot Grits".

    IBM, on the other hand, has always cared about errors - has always, in fact, been FANATICAL about errors.

    If you send a query to an IBM mainframe, then you're expecting umpteen-sigmas of confidence that the mainframe will actually be up and running, that you'll get an actual response, and that the response, when it finally arrives, will be 100% CORRECT.

    Especially when the response is something along the lines of "DANGER: CHILD KNOWN TO BE ALLERGIC TO AMOXICILLIN. ALLERGIC RESPONSE INCLUDES ANAPHYLACTIC SHOCK. PRESCRIPTION REQUEST THEREFORE INVALID AND REFUSED."

    1. Re: GOOGLE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT ERRORS !!! by santiago · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You have no idea what you're talking about. Dropping the occasional search result is fine, but what about failing to record billing for the ad system, dropping mails you were supposed to receive in your Gmail account, or failing to save the doc you were editing? Google does a lot more than serve search results, and most of that needs to work every single time.

      The fact of the matter is that even the most expensive hardware eventually fails, so your software needs to be able to deal with it and fall back to working units. Once you've written your software to handle hardware failures, you can run on really cheap hardware. And, it turns out that buying a lot of really cheap computers some of which are broken all the time gets you way more computing power than trying to buy a few really robust machines.

  14. Last TCO I was involved with... by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You haven't tried the IBM kool-aid yet. Those people whose jobs currently rely on mainframe expertise are very happy with them. They do have better error-checking but everything else is at least an order of magnitude out of whack with commodity hardware price/performance, and in many cases, several orders. You can reduce some of the costs on their zSeries by buying specialised processors for DB2, Java, and Linux (~100K a pop) so you don't have to may for MIPS usage but the costs are still astronomical for the performance. If it was cost effective, don't you think Amazon would be running its cloud services on them?

    The last TCO I was involved with actually showed that the mainframe was the more cost effective approach for the use case at hand.

    As for Amazon, well that is hard to say. If when they first started, they knew how successful they were going to grow and how quickly, maybe they would have gone with a mainframe solution.That's the nice thing of TCO analysis, it eliminates, or should eminiate, any platform bias the decision makers have. Then again, it also depends on really knowing what future growth patterns and expected use cases are or it is just more GIGO.