EPA: No Single Cause For Colony Collapse Disorder

alphatel writes "Citing a wide range of symptoms, a federal report (PDF) released yesterday has concluded that no single event, pesticide or virus can be held responsible for CCD in North American bee colonies. Meanwhile, Europe has moved towards banning neocotinids for two years. EPA's Jim Jones stated, 'There are non-trivial costs to society if we get this wrong. There are meaningful benefits from these pesticides to farmers and to consumers, as well as for affordable food.' May R. Berenbaum, head of the department of entomology at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and a participant in the study, said, 'There is no quick fix. Patching one hole in a boat that leaks everywhere is not going to keep it from sinking.'"

Comments

One hole at a time

[Anonymous Coward]

Patching one hole in a boat that leaks everywhere is not going to keep it from sinking

But it is one less hole to worry about.

Re:One hole at a time

[RoknrolZombie]

No shit...it's obvious that not doing anything at all isn't going to fix the problem. Normally I don't support banning things because they "might" be affecting something else, but under these circumstances I'd say it might be worth some experimenting to see what might *help*. FFS, the more we sit and wait to see what's going on, the fewer bees we have to do their job. I realize other animals pollinate as well, but they don't do it nearly as efficiently as bees...and frankly, I think this problem is much easier to solve than the problem of how to get our fucking food to grow in five years.

Re:One hole at a time

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention, with every hole you patch, the rate that the boat is sinking at will decrease, giving you time to search for more holes and/or duct tape.

Re:One hole at a time

[mark-t]

AC gets it in one.

That it might be more expensive is moot.... more expensive food is still more desirable than no food at all.

Re:One hole at a time

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't even know what you are acting against. Yet you would stop doing what is provably beneficial today to just 'do something'. Sounds like zombie logic.

Re:One hole at a time

[patchmaster]

Patching one hole in a boat that leaks everywhere is not going to keep it from sinking

But it is one less hole to worry about.

True, but if it costs you $billions to patch that hole and you save no colonies due to the many other factors, that's $billions wasted. I don't think the original quote was suggesting that we do nothing, but that we be highly selective about which holes we attempt to patch.

There's a great tendency with situations like this to feel that we need to do something, randomly pick something, do it, then feel good about yourself for having done something regardless of whether you've lessened the severity of the situation.

Re:One hole at a time

[Charliemopps]

That reminds me of some sitcom or cartoon where the characters are lost in the desert and their only food supply catches fire, so they dump their canteen of water on it to put it out. Knee-Jerk reactions rarely work out for the best.

Re:One hole at a time

[Charliemopps]

I know you live in your own little life and have very little appreciation to what it's like in other parts of the country or the world. But to many people, more expensive food is the same as no food at all.

Re:One hole at a time

[Anonymous Coward]

In the history of mankind, it has never been a BAD idea to ban a pesticide.

Maybe this ban will not save the bees, but it will help humanity in the long term.

Re:One hole at a time

[Anonymous Coward]

Where is your proof?

Captcha: barium

Re:One hole at a time

[denzacar]

what it's like in other parts of the country or the world. But to many people, more expensive food is the same as no food at all.

Fortunately, EU countries where neocotinids have been temporarily banned, tend not to be among such countries.
No, not even Greece.

Re:One hole at a time

[mark-t]

Only when people who are better off aren't willing to share.

Wanting those who might be able to afford to help the less fortunate also starve to death because the world's actually run out of useful food altogether doesn't help.

Re:One hole at a time

[khallow]

But it is one less hole to worry about.

Unless in the process you punch several more holes. Now, I get your point, but I find it interesting that even the EPA is cautioning against just "plugging holes" without evaluating whether that's worth the cost or not.

Re:One hole at a time

[__aaltlg1547]

We're talking very marginally more expensive food if we ban a class of insecticides, as opposed to much more expensive food if crops fail because they were not pollinated. Soybeans, despite what you're read, will not be much affected by bee loss. They self-pollinate.

Re:One hole at a time

[khallow]

In the history of mankind, it has never been a BAD idea to ban a pesticide.

The obvious counterexample is DDT. It got banned and as a result malaria wasn't eradicated. This link claims 50 million lives lost due to the ban since the 70s.

Re:One hole at a time

[Steeltoe]

Support for your line of thinking:

Salon: Without honeybees, we may cease to be
The report concludes, “imidacloprid seems to be a substance particularly ’fit for the precautionary principle’.” It cites the chemicals’ ability to harm honeybees and wild bees at minute doses and its persistence in the soil for several years. Additionally, it notes that after Italy temporarily banned neonicotinoids in several crops, reports of high honeybee mortality decreased from 185 to two.

The line of thinking to keep doing harm without testing wether bans might work, for short term profit, is frankly both suicidal unscientific.
Doing harm in the name of profit is evil.

Re:One hole at a time

[Anonymous Coward]

While in your little life, you can justify releasing toxins in our food- and water-source, causing mass-extinctions and making people sick, to get cheaper and less nutritional food?

Re:One hole at a time

[Anonymous Coward]

You're suggesting that the only way we will ever stop malaria is to poison mosquitoes into extinction?

That's very short term thinking.

50 million lives were lost because they weren't "rich enough" to deserve our health care or research funding. It's as simple as that.

Re:One hole at a time

[Runaway1956]

Your "logic" is flawed. No food means EVERYONE goes hungry, and the hungriest will die. Expensive food means that more people will go hungry, and only some of the hungriest will die.

Plentiful resources is desirable, of course.
Limited resources is undesirable. Again, of course.
No resources is a circumstance that ensures that people do not survive.

Take your pick.

Re:One hole at a time

[Runaway1956]

Consider the facts surrounding this insecticide.

First - it is DESIGNED to kill insects. That is it's purpose.
Second - it was approved for use based on flawed research, conducted in Canada only, in an area that had no honey bee populations to be affected. Private research, conducted by Bayer - research that should never have been admitted as "science".
Third - the colony collapses happen most frequently in areas that use this specific insecticide.
Fourth - there is data that supports the ban - Steeltoe posted a link above: http://www.salon.com/2013/03/21/without_honeybees_we_may_cease_to_be/

    "Additionally, it notes that after Italy temporarily banned neonicotinoids in several crops, reports of high honeybee mortality decreased from 185 to two."

Re: One hole at a time

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly the ac is wrong and statist solutions to market problems (as all problems of this nature are) will always fail. Attacking capitalism isn't going to fix this. Enabling the FREE market will. Simple. Common. Sense.

Ron Paul 2016. Take back America.

Re:One hole at a time

[Anonymous Coward]

No shit...it's obvious that not doing anything at all isn't going to fix the problem.

Yeah, the battle cry of clueless managers!

1. We must do something
2. Here is something
3. Let's do it!

You must also think that Carly did a great job as a CEO, at least she DID something!

Re: One hole at a time

[wwwUBERFUZZcom]

Can't we do both? Save the bees and erradicate the mosquitos!

Re:One hole at a time

[patchmaster]

I don't really want to get into a debate about whether it is or is not a good idea to ban any particular insecticide. Frankly, I'm not qualified to argue either side of such a debate.

This is exactly why I do think it makes sense to listen to the experts hired by the U.S. government to study the issue. It appears the experts feel that banning one class of pesticide won't solve the problem. Unless you think they were all paid off by Bayer or aren't really scientists or are maybe all Canadian, there would seem to be little reason to disregard their conclusions, even if they do seem to contradict those arrived at by Salon.com.

Re: One hole at a time

[Anonymous Coward]

Poe's law strikes again...

Re:One hole at a time

[khallow]

You're suggesting that the only way we will ever stop malaria is to poison mosquitoes into extinction?

It works.

50 million lives were lost because they weren't "rich enough" to deserve our health care or research funding. It's as simple as that.

Nonsense. The developed world doesn't have malaria now because they drove it to extinction in the wild via DDT and similar pesticides.

Re:One hole at a time

[Runaway1956]

Please note - the location of the "study" being in Canada has nothing to do with the Canadians. It was a flawed study, performed by Bayer. Canadians didn't do the study, didn't approve of the study, didn't participate in any way.

All in all, Canadians seem to be better at regulating business than the US.

Re:One hole at a time

[Anonymous Coward]

other animals pollinate as well.. and are also killed by pesticide abuse.

Re:One hole at a time

[Velex]

Oh wow. Excellent troll, sir. Appeal to authority and the whole nine yards.

*rummages around*

I know I've got some mod points around here somewhere.

but srsly

Unless you think they were all paid off by Bayer...

That's EXACTLY what we're suspecting.

Re:One hole at a time

[Velex]

Who are they?

Srsly, I once dated a guy who had food stamps. It was quite the nice budget. It made me wonder what a sucker I was when I was younger scraping by on ramen and working a job.

Re: One hole at a time

[mark-t]

I'm only attacking capitalism to the exact same extent that capitalism would create an even larger old hunger problem than what already exists by not trying to fix negative environmental impacts of existing commercial practices

Re:One hole at a time

[Anonymous Coward]

But we still have birds.

Re:One hole at a time

[Anonymous Coward]

and as a result malaria wasn't eradicated

And neither were Bluebirds, the Bald Eagle, or many other Avians affected by DDT-caused Eggshell thinning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT#Environmental_impact

Re:One hole at a time

[Anonymous Coward]

Erm, food is a concrete material commodity, money's an abstract thing. We need to grow up as a society and admit the current economic system is outdated and needs to be changed. The OP's got it right, but you child need to get your head out of your horse's ass and stop talking down to others over the internet.

Re:One hole at a time

[icebike]

As opposed to the bee keepers, who, in all likelyhood are incorporated as well?

Always an excuse to rant against the corporations. Jeezuz, give it a rest!

Re:One hole at a time

[icebike]

I've heard of, even seen (on TV) places in China where there are no bees anymore. These are agricultural regions that were reliant upon bees to pollinate their crops.

They went to manual pollination. No shit, actual farmers spend 2-3 weeks every year, hand pollinating their crops. It only works because the average income level is comparatively low there. And let's face it, the choice was do the job by hand or get out of farming. Without outside assistance there are many plants that cannot pollinate themselves, or only do so poorly.

Not this again!!!

They were hand pollinating long before they killed off the bees trying to eradicate a different pest.

They were hand pollinating in situations there bees wouldn't have helped at all because in order to obtain high yield the crops required cross pollination between three related varieties of pears that flower at different times. They had been doing it for years to improve the crop.

Only much later did they accidently eradicate the bees, trying to save these same pear crops from a different pest.
But bringing in new bees wouldn't have helped due to the long time between the flowering of the three varieties.
They had not been relying on bees at all for years.

Read about it here.

Lets not get our stories mixed up, mKay?

Hand pollination is also done in the US, especially when breeding new varieties of corn or apples, where its very important to know exactly what went into the mix. Its actually not that unusual.

Re:One hole at a time

[dryeo]

Not this bullshit again. DDT was never banned for malaria prevention, just every other use and is still used for indoor treatment for malaria carrying mosquitoes though I doubt they make wallpaper out of it any more. Pesticides are like anti-biotics, use them only when needed as immunity is built up in the target population which is one of the main reasons that DDT isn't used as much for malaria prevention, just as penicillin isn't used much anymore for infections.
The Stockholm convention banned DDT for all uses except malaria carrying mosquito control though they did discourage it. Currently the World Health Organization does encourage using DDT for indoor use to control mosquitoes in malaria infected areas. Press release, http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2006/pr50/en/
And staying on topic, I had a pesticide application ticket many years ago. It was stressed to only use pesticides as a last resort, to use what was effective, and no more and one of the main dangers was how sensitive bees were to insecticides compared to most insects. Fish were also very sensitive to some insecticides and herbicides so you'd have chemicals with a low LD50 yet a high LC50 level. Toxicity can be very complex.

Re:One hole at a time

[dryeo]

You're suggesting that the only way we will ever stop malaria is to poison mosquitoes into extinction?

It works.

No it doesn't (exception being smallpox) as almost always a resistant strain develops

50 million lives were lost because they weren't "rich enough" to deserve our health care or research funding. It's as simple as that.

Nonsense. The developed world doesn't have malaria now because they drove it to extinction in the wild via DDT and similar pesticides.

Actually the important thing was mechanical. Draining swamps is very effective to control mosquitoes along with judicious usage of pesticides, ideally a variety to prevent immune strains.

Re:One hole at a time

[AlphaWolf_HK]

No, he's right. I'm sick of this "let's blame all of the worlds problems on the megacorps and the 1%" syndrome. It's stupid and just creates a divisive "us vs them" mentality when often times the "them" are either on your side or have nothing to do with whatever the hell it is you're fighting.

Every time somebody such as yourself goes on this tirade it makes me think of how stupid a group of otherwise at least mildly intelligent people can become, like the Salem witch trials. The boogeyman you are fighting is one you yourself created. Emmanuel Goldstein doesn't fucking exist.

Re:One hole at a time

[khallow]

Eh, this turned out to be a rather weak example. Several large flaws with my assertion are: the areas where malaria is currently present are far harder to treat both due to the presence of malaria in non-human animals and because these societies tend to be dysfunctional; DDT is actually still used for malaria eradication - though it is more expensive than if it were produced in 60s volume; but if the heavy use of the 60s had continued, mosquitoes would have evolved DDT resistance; I read of numerous alternative approaches (draining marshes, spreading oil on breeding pools, non-DDT insecticide treated netting, etc) that while they don't render DDT obsolete, do indicate it is one tool of many; and there are a number of insecticides that are more effective at some of the roles that DDT was used for.

Re: One hole at a time

[mrclevesque]

Good points.

Re:One hole at a time

[ChrisMaple]

Draining swamps is very effective to control mosquitoes along with...

In the US it's now illegal to drain swamps, because they're "wetlands" that must be preserved. Another victory for environmentalists over human beings.

Re:One hole at a time

[dryeo]

How many swamps are infected with malaria carrying mosquitoes in the USA?

Re:One hole at a time

[tlhIngan]

No shit...it's obvious that not doing anything at all isn't going to fix the problem.

Yeah, the battle cry of clueless managers!

1. We must do something
2. Here is something
3. Let's do it!

You must also think that Carly did a great job as a CEO, at least she DID something!

"Doing something" also can include "doing a helluva lot of science and research to figure out our options.

Like what the EU has done - as an experiment. If there are many factors, why not test each one to see which has greatest impact?

Right now, we have no data, other than CCD is happening. Why not "do something" by getting the data we need? We certainly won't have it when the bees are gone.

Re:One hole at a time

[Anonymous Coward]

Quite a few. Mostly in the southeast states.

Re:One hole at a time

[sl3xd]

It's difficult to really read all of the meaning here. One less hole can be worse than nothing with our congressional circus.

Give the scientists some benefit of the doubt: They are not only aware of the scientific issues involved, but of the political minefield any change must charge through. Trying to focus all efforts on one issue (banning an insecticide) is relatively simple.

Even if you got an insecticide ban through, these scientists apparently don't feel it's enough. Banning the insecticide first, and finding out what else to do later, will be a total disaster with legislators. The insecticide ban alone won't make a different "large enough", and we'll then see a group of familiar congressmen & senators block any further action (of any kind) because the insecticide ban didn't fix the problem by itself.

Re:One hole at a time

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, that's juvenile. Do you honestly think that people with no money and no power are the ones causing all the problems?

Or might it be the only entities with the wherewithal to be causing the problems that are responsible?

No, no, don't let any actual thought invade your personal "I'm not rich yet, but I'll soon be a billionaire because I'm so smart and valuable, so I'd better not screw up the lot of the mega-rich by requiring them to be responsible for their actions" delusion bubble. That would require admitting that you can be wrong, and that's a job for grown ups.

No, See, We're going too need a Villain here.

[rmdingler]

This would have gotten a lot better play on Slashdot if Monsanto had played a larger and more definitive role in the CCD....

Jim Jones?

[Ultra64]

As if anyone is going to listen to him again.

Re:Jim Jones?

[Mister Liberty]

Right.
The last colony that did, didn't even have a chance
to regret it for the rest of their life.

This EPA announcement brought to you by...

[squidflakes]

Monsanto.

Friends, isn't it time you started using neocotinids on your crops? Why waste the summer dealing with the dangers of bees when you can use Genuine Monsanto(tm) Pesticides! Yes friends, be free from the worries of work-a-day bee invasions, slug infestations, and all of those annoying back yard guests with Monsanto! Spray it on your crops, on your meat, in your milk, even on your kids. Monsanto brands are formulated by actual scientists and checked for quality and killing power by our own crack team of former EPA regulators.

Monsanto: The Best Regulatory Capture Money Can Buy!

Re:This EPA announcement brought to you by...

[the eric conspiracy]

Monsanto does not produce neonicitinoids.

Re:This EPA announcement brought to you by...

[squidflakes]

Damnnation, I meant Bayer, not Monsanto.

Neocotinids?

[Anonymous Coward]

C'mon, editors! We're just stringing random letters together.

Drunk!

[Anonymous Coward]

There are meaningful benefits from these pesticides to farmers and to consumers, as well as for affordable food...

If the bees go, so then do (for the most part) the crops, even my cat understands that.
This is all about profits (for the insecticide producers).

Look, I'll spell it out for the EPA:
1. Bees okay before pesticide
2. Introduction of pesticide
3. Bees die.
4. Pesticide == no bees.

CAPTCHA = 'disprove', even /. agrees with me.

Re:Drunk!

[Anonymous Coward]

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Re:Drunk!

[the eric conspiracy]

It's not that simple.

Some countries like Switzerland that don't have

2. Introduction of pesticide

do have

3. Bees die.

While other countries like Australia that have

2. Introduction of pesticide

don't have

3. Bees die.

Re:Drunk!

[Runaway1956]

Switzerland is not an isolated island thousands of miles away from accidental contamination sources. It has been shown that this pesticide is spread by the wind, after which it "soaks" into the vegetation and the soil.

Complex system has multiple modes of failure

[slew]

News at 11...

neocotinid? are you fucking kidding?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's neonicotinoid, you know, as in based on nicotine, a naturally-evolved defense against insects and the second most common drug in the world? There's no such thing as a cotinid.

Since Bees don't vote...

[MasterOfGoingFaster]

I told the bees that they needed to contribute to both parties if they wanted a voice in these matters.

Good terminology

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm glad somebody came up with the term "Colony Collapse Disorder".

Trying to explain "save the bees" sounded so lefty-flighty I couldn't even convince myself when I heard myself in my own brain, much less convince anyone else.

1 > 0

[DragonWriter]

'There is no quick fix. Patching one hole in a boat that leaks everywhere is not going to keep it from sinking.'

Patching zero holes also won't keep it from sinking, and, indeed, is pretty much guaranteed to do less to delay the sinking than patching one hole.

Sink the boat

[fox171171]

There is no quick fix. Patching one hole in a boat that leaks everywhere is not going to keep it from sinking.

Yes, much better not to patch any holes at all, and let the boat sink, than to risk patching a hole that wasn't leaking. Hell, maybe we should drill a few more holes, just to be sure.

There are meaningful benefits from these pesticides to farmers and to consumers, as well as for affordable food.

There are meaningful benefits from these bees to farmers and to consumers, as well as for affordable food.'

There, fixed that for you.

I think it would be better to be condemned for doing something and failing, than to be be damned for standing back and watching it happen.

Re:Sink the boat

[Runaway1956]

"Do something, right or wrong."

That was one of my Dad's favorite witticisms, so yeah, he would agree with you.

suprise..

[Anonymous Coward]

EPA siding with the companies that make the pesticides.

Re:suprise..

[Grand Facade]

boggle!

Hello, Nirvana fallacy

[SuperBanana]

'There is no quick fix. Patching one hole in a boat that leaks everywhere is not going to keep it from sinking.'"

Hello, nirvana fallacy.

For those who aren't familiar, the basic explanation of the nirvana fallacy is rejecting a solution because it isn't perfect/ideal. In this case: rejecting a ban on the pesticide because there are other additional causes of colony collapse disorder that wouldn't be affected by such a ban.

Idiotic, and amazing that a scientist could utter it.

Re:Hello, Nirvana fallacy

[patchmaster]

You're conflating two different things, no doubt due to the confusing nature of the post. The quote about patching holes was from a participant in the study that looked at a wide range of factors, including pesticides and viruses, and concluded there was no single culprit.

In the midst of this the OP mentions Europe banning "neocotinids" [sic] for two years. This has nothing whatever to do with the study mentioned or the quote from the study participant. So the patching holes quote isn't suggesting we shouldn't follow Europe's lead in this as that was not the topic being addressed.

Re:Hello, Nirvana fallacy

[the biologist]

What they should have said is that there is no particular evidence supporting the model that the neocotinid pesticides are at all relevant to colony collapse disorder in North America.

Re:Hello, Nirvana fallacy

[Anonymous Coward]

no particular evidence supporting the model that the neocotinid pesticides blah blah blah

Your statement is utter bullshit.

Nicotine is extremely toxic to bees, but shot lived. Neonicotinoids are extremely toxic to bees and they are systemic pesticides, meaning they live inside the plant and not only get into pollen, they also get into food.

Re:Hello, Nirvana fallacy

[hawkingradiation]

It kind of occurs to me that they would most likely say that there is no evidence if there was none. Since they didn't say there was no evidence, I suppose there is some. I would also point out that there is an active lawsuit (first google hit) going against the EPA and possibly this is the reason for the article. I also read that there was at least one paper on the cause of colony collapse disorder. Don't know if they/it can be found on Google Scholar here. Bayer crop science is the villan for promoting the use of this. Anyway you look at it, the disappearance of bees may be good for selling one particular seed, but in general very, very bad for the rest of nature and most other agricultural industries too. Think of how Biologist Jonas Salk said: "If all insects on Earth disappeared, within 50 years all life on Earth would end. If all human beings disappeared from the Earth, within 50 years all forms of life would flourish.”. This does not mean that all humans have to disappear in order for life to survive however. I would prefer a balance.

Re:Hello, Nirvana fallacy

[Anonymous Coward]

nah but I agree - these articles aren't written by accident - they're is an agenda, and the agenda is on the side of the supply and production chain, and this organization is for pesticides because it is yet another product that goes into the supply and production chain. There logic isn't sensible from the standpoint of survival of the whole, just of their particular organization. It's .. corrupt and sick.

Re:Hello, Nirvana fallacy

[Grand Facade]

Oh great! So they are now going to spike our foods with the same addictive shit they used to bind us to their brand of tobacco!

No Single Cause For Colon Collapse Disorder

[slazzy]

Did anyone else have to read this a few times thinking it said colon collapse disorder?

Re:No Single Cause For Colon Collapse Disorder

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, then I figured this was yet another obvious fact "science" post.

I mean, duh. You've got quality Mexican food; you've got bad Mexican food; you've got chili; you've got spicy Indian food; you've got spoiled dairy products...

The fight against colon collapse must be fought on many fronts.

This is the worst possible outcome.

[Anonymous Coward]

If they at least banned one type of pesticide but got it wrong, we would have noticed it in a year or two. As it is now, we can't even trial and error a way out of this...

captcha: reactive

EPA?

[the eric conspiracy]

The report seems to be from the USDA, not the EPA. There are some contributors from the EPA though.

Re:1 0

[Charliemopps]

Yes, but patching the smallest hole in the boat with your marine radio instead of using it to call for help wouldn't be wise either. His point was that you need to think before you act, and he's right.

A cop out by quasi-politicians so they look good.

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

To quote House, Bullshit, there's a cause for everthing; you just haven't figured it out, yet.

Neonicotinoids...

[denzacar]

NOT neocotinids. Fuck!

Still haven't learned NOT to copy/paste from the summary.

Re:Neonicotinoids...

[davester666]

There was useful information included in the summary?

That's a first!

It's Obviously...

[Stormy Dragon]

...a result of our failure to make timely sacrifices to the Wicker Man

Re:It's Obviously...

[webhat]

I've seen a number of sacrifices to the strawman.

HFCS used to feed the bees.

[denzacar]

We had a discussion about that about a year ago.
http://science.slashdot.org/story/12/04/07/167230/colony-collapse-disorder-linked-to-pesticide-high-fructose-corn-syrup

Who is really behind this report

[Anonymous Coward]

Note the disclaimer on page 3. Not the policies or positions of the USDA, EPA or USG.

It is also interesting to see who was on the different work group.

  Lots of academia

CropLife America (used to be The Agricultural Insecticide and Fungicide Association).
Bayer
Monsanta - directly and indirectly (CropLife)
DuPont

A little background info...

[Anonymous Coward]

A little background info for aspiring entomologists. Neonicotinoids are an interesting class of insecticides. They are valued because they have relatively low mammalian toxicity but they are very effective against insects. Neonics are systemic insecticides, i.e., they get inside plants and are distributed into all plant tissues. Neonicotinoid residues found in pollen and nectar are consumed by flower-visiting insects such as bees. Concentrations of residues can reach lethal levels in some situations. Neonicotinoids can persist in soil for months or years after a single application. After plants absorb neonicotinoids, they slowly metabolize the compounds. Some of the breakdown products are as toxic or more toxic to honey bees than the original active ingredient. Honey bees exposed to sublethal levels of neonicotinoids can experience problems with flying and navigation, reduced taste sensitivity, and slower learning of new tasks, which all impact foraging ability. Keep in mind that neonicotinoids were on the market for about 10 years before colony collapse disorder was noticed.

Re:A little background info...

[dryeo]

A little background info for aspiring entomologists. Neonicotinoids are an interesting class of insecticides. They are valued because they have relatively low mammalian toxicity but they are very effective against insects. Neonics are systemic insecticides, i.e., they get inside plants and are distributed into all plant tissues. Neonicotinoid residues found in pollen and nectar are consumed by flower-visiting insects such as bees. Concentrations of residues can reach lethal levels in some situations. Neonicotinoids can persist in soil for months or years after a single application. After plants absorb neonicotinoids, they slowly metabolize the compounds. Some of the breakdown products are as toxic or more toxic to honey bees than the original active ingredient. Honey bees exposed to sublethal levels of neonicotinoids can experience problems with flying and navigation, reduced taste sensitivity, and slower learning of new tasks, which all impact foraging ability. Keep in mind that neonicotinoids were on the market for about 10 years before colony collapse disorder was noticed.

Very interesting and I'd mod up if I hadn't already posted.
The other questions. How destructive are the insects that the neonicotinoids are controlling? How effective are the alternatives? Is this just maximizing huge profits or make or break scenario? I'm not knowledgeable on this subject.

Re:A little background info...

[gtall]

Just a general observation, pesticides generally work on a range of insects. Killing off the insects is probably not a wise idea given they are near the base of the food chain for many mammals.

Worst. Analogy. Ever.

[grimJester]

Patching one hole in a boat that leaks everywhere is not going to keep it from sinking

So, we should not patch a hole in a sinking boat? That's so absurd only Congress would fall for it. WTF are you proposing we do, swim?

Re:Worst. Analogy. Ever.

[gonzonista]

Aren't these the same people who said that a rising tide raises all boats?

corn syrup?

[j00r0m4nc3r]

Read an article recently that said they have evidence to suggest that feeding bees corn syrup to replace the honey that they would normally eat weakens their immune system because the honey contains all sorts of good biological things that are remnants from the plants they harvest the nectar from. Instead, we steal their honey and feed them factory produced high fructose corn syrup. Pesticides, insecticides, corn syrup.. It's no wonder they're dying....

Re:corn syrup?

[Anonymous Coward]

But is there a time correlation between changing to feeding them HFCS and the colony collapse syndrome?

Re:corn syrup?

[Crypto Gnome]

Read an article recently that said they have evidence to suggest that feeding bees corn syrup to replace the honey that they would normally eat weakens their immune system because the honey contains all sorts of good biological things that are remnants from the plants they harvest the nectar from. Instead, we steal their honey and feed them factory produced high fructose corn syrup. Pesticides, insecticides, corn syrup.. It's no wonder they're dying....

I have no reference to show for it but I read an article last year where there was DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE (someone did a study somewhere) that "feeding bees corn syrup" was most likely one of the factors contributing to CCD.

Again, this news was shouted down with "well if you can't prove that it absolutely in all cases leads CCD then we're not gonna change our practices".

Re:corn syrup?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have no reference to show for it but I read an article last year where there was DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE (someone did a study somewhere) that "feeding bees corn syrup" was most likely one of the factors contributing to CCD.

Is corn syrup made from corn? Were the pesticides in question used on that corn?

Difference between US/EU

[devent]

I really like how this really shows the difference between policy making in the US and the EU:
EU: maybe those pesticides are really hurting the bees, so we going to ban them for 2 years and see if it's help.
US: there are many stuff that hurts bees, but behind the pesticides are big cooperations so we rather do nothing.

"non-trivial costs to society" meaning the big cooperation don't like to take the hit on profits if there is a ban.

Re:Difference between US/EU

[Anonymous Coward]

Freedom pesticides

EPA puppets

[slick7]

Says the bought dogs of Monsanto and DuPont.

Re:EPA puppets

[dryeo]

Wrong. This is the bought dogs of Bayer for a change.

Nor Cancer

[Anonymous Coward]

Cancer is caused by more than tobacco. Or radiation. Or massive UV. Or artificial fod additives. Or HPV. Or Dr. Marys Monkeys.. Or ....

So, African bees will have longer to adapt. Once they do, they will swarm all over the world, quickly adapting to the weather in the absence of competition and abundance of food. They will have this craving for nicotine and nicotine-like substances, though. That can be really messy.

I'm surprised

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the most intelligent and well reasoned point made by a government official I've heard in months. Bravo. Truly, bravo. A government agency being careful about doing something because there might be unintended consequences? I never thought I'd hear that out of any mouth but a libertarian. EPA's Jim Jones, you have my respect.

It hasn't been proven beneficial.

[Anonymous Coward]

The "proof" it was safe and effective was never done.

Please purchase a clue at your local store.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is entirely possible to create synthetic toxins.

DDT has NEVER been banned.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is NO COUNTRY IN THE WORLD that has banned the use of DDT.

DDT was not for crop spraying, it was for "surgical strike" and the abuse of the use of DDT meant that the population of mozzies were building an immunity.

It was far cheaper and far far more effective to use nets and impregnate them with insecticides.

That link can claim what the hell it likes, it's talking complete shite.

Re:DDT has NEVER been banned.

[khallow]

The US banned DDT in 1972 and there was a global ban implemented in 2004. Now the bans aren't all encompassing. DDT apparently can and is still used for mosquito control. So my reference has that going against it.

But what I notice is that they retreated from a focus on eradicating malaria to treatment and prevention of infection (such as insecticide impregnated netting) during that time. Maybe the problem of eradication really was too intractable for the remaining regions (either physically or politically), but the strategy shift corresponds with the removal of one of the prime tools for mosquito control used at the time.

Other experts say otherwise.

[Anonymous Coward]

So why are you believing the US ones?

Because they're telling you what you want to hear.

Rational Political Speak

[bussdriver]

+1 for intelligent political speak.
-10 for defending this foolishness.

There is no single cause for the bank robbery; therefore, we must be careful about accusing any single person for the loss of money because it could harm those components if we take measures against them.

If you think my logical transform is a false analogy, think about the fraudulent banks that caused the depression.

Should we worry about some peoples' jobs when we have a potentially big disaster on our hands? no. life sucks. get another business until you are proven safe. These pro-business zealots are all for competition killing each other off but when there is a seriously big risk they must defend the "industry" against the public, majority, democratic institutions. If you are unlucky because company X innovated and you go under that is just the risk of doing business and if you harm a lot of people you are also unlucky (unless you are Monsanto and evil is your purpose.)

Tobacoo got it wrong

[bussdriver]

Big Tobacco delayed progress with FUD for decades but where they finally tripped up is that they didn't fund research into other causes of lung cancer. By conflating the whole issue with tons of information about contributing factors and flat out admitting they were a contributing factor they could continue to this day!

If you ever came in contact with Asbestos, ate poorly, lived in a polluted city, failed to get X minutes of aerobic exercise and then smoked... (I'd love the aerobic part since smokers tend to hate aerobic exercise; I'm sure their stats would be low on that "contributing factor")

Baton Twung

[Anonymous Coward]

Baton Twung uh uh uh uh .

Nadive Pwide uh uh uh uh.

Who needs bees

[Anonymous Coward]

We can survive perfectly well on Soylent Green.

Politics, high-pay, low skill work for idiots.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is perfect example why politics is so bad at managing things. Why we should move on to science based management. Any smuck can be politician, but to call your self respectable scientist, takes actual knowledge and publications for peer reviews.

So many holes around me, I want to fill them all!

[VortexCortex]

Oh, well, there's so many holes in this boat, and patching one of 'em takes, you know, effort -- Well, a different kind of effort than I'm used to anyway. So, I think we should just try spending all our time bailing more water -- It won't keep us from sinking eventually, but, I mean, I'm a card carrying member of the water bailer's union, and the Bucket Supply Store gives me a percentage of the sales on referrals... Meh, I'll probably be dead before the boat sinks, so, yeah. Screw the boat, just bail faster!

It couldn't be from Imidacloprid

[sl4shd0rk]

A Pesticide? C'mon, that would just be ridiculous. It must be from feeding the bees high fructose corn syrup. Which probably contains....
Corn treated with pesticides that contain neonicotinoids. Bayer is going to weasel it's way out of this in typical US corporate fashion.

they're wrong -- there is a single cause...

[Anonymous Coward]

HUMAN GREED.

Re:they're wrong -- there is a single cause...

[ChrisMaple]

The bee colonies under discussion are created and maintained by human beings; they would not exist without human beings. Humans made these hives for their own advantage, i.e. greed. So you're complaining about greed damaging greed.

Go away. Come back when you're mature enough to add value to a discussion of difficult human problems.

Food production is an issue...

[Anonymous Coward]

... the EU doesn't have to worry about. We've had surpluses for a long time -- it is easier/safer for us to ban the use of these things from that perspective at least. The US/EU situation may not be comparable.

Better to do something than nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

As many have pointed out, if we do absolutely nothing, it seriously looks like the bees might just die out. That would be really, really, astoundingly bad. What's the harm in not using a class of pesticide, or not feeding bees something that has proven toxicity in humans (in that, well, it's bad for you :))? Maybe some harm, but it's not like doing those things could totally fuck over the planet. Not doing anything just might totally fuck over the planet. And at that point, what will we do? Definitively prove that such and such killed the bees and feel bad about it, as we starve?

EPA - Dumbass Analogy

[ericjames429]

'There is no quick fix. Patching one hole in a boat that leaks everywhere is not going to keep it from sinking.' - May B. Berenbaum So lets all just sit around and do nothing; because that's really gonna fix the problem! Start plugging the holes; one at a time if necessary; ultimately they'll all get plugged. In the meantime you slow the rate of destruction. Allowing the Bees to just die is the most ridiculous approach I have heard. The EPA needs to plugging the holes right now and keep the pesticide industries from sticking their money grubbing opinions into the decision process.

CCD - High Fructose Corn Syrup?

[Anonymous Coward]

They have been feeding feeding bees this since the 70's.

Here is the article:
http://phys.org/news/2013-04-high-fructose-corn-syrup-tied-worldwide.html
Researchers find high-fructose corn syrup may be tied to worldwide collapse of bee colonies
"Commercial honeybee enterprises began feeding bees high-fructose corn syrup back in the 70's after research was conducted that indicated that doing so was safe. Since that time, new pesticides have been developed and put into use and over time it appears the bees' immunity response to such compounds may have become compromised."

High Fructose Corn Syrup

[Anonymous Coward]

While I'm certainly a fan of any theory that has high fructose corn syrup as the culprit, I do have to wonder how so many beekeepers could decide to take more honey from their bees and replace it with HFCS, then see their bee populations decline, and not make the connection between the two.

Also, it's worth noting that "corn syrup" is not the same thing as "high fructose corn syrup." Corn syrup is just glucose, and therefore harmless as it's nothing more than the sugar the body uses for energy. High fructose corn syrup is the result of converting much of that glucose into fructose, simply because fructose has a sweeter flavor, and it's the fructose which is unhealthy.

neonicotinoids

[Anonymous Coward]

Jim jones said “We at the EPA let science drive the outcome of our decision-making”. Is this the same science that you used when you allowed these toxins in to the environment mister Jones? Why are you ignoring the dozens of peer reviewed independent studies when you have none of your own mister Jones? Are you a puppet for big agribusiness?