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NIMH Distances Itself From DSM Categories, Shifts Funding To New Approaches

New submitter Big Nemo '60 writes with news that the National Institute of Mental Health is seeking to modernize the diagnosis of mental illness through the use of neuroscience, genetics, etc. From the article: "The world's biggest mental health research institute is abandoning the new version of psychiatry's 'bible' — the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders — questioning its validity and stating that 'patients with mental disorders deserve better.' This bombshell comes just weeks before the publication of the fifth revision of the manual, called DSM-5." More importantly, they are going to be shifting funding to research projects that seek to define new categories of mental illness using modern medical science, ignoring the current DSM categorizations: "The strength of each of the editions of DSM has been 'reliability' .. The weakness is its lack of validity. Unlike our definitions of ischemic heart disease, lymphoma, or AIDS, the DSM diagnoses are based on a consensus about clusters of clinical symptoms, not any objective laboratory measure. In the rest of medicine, this would be equivalent to creating diagnostic systems based on the nature of chest pain or the quality of fever. ... NIMH has launched the Research Domain Criteria (RDoC) project to transform diagnosis by incorporating genetics, imaging, cognitive science, and other levels of information to lay the foundation for a new classification system. ... It became immediately clear that we cannot design a system based on biomarkers or cognitive performance because we lack the data. In this sense, RDoC is a framework for collecting the data needed for a new nosology. But it is critical to realize that we cannot succeed if we use DSM categories as the 'gold standard.' ... Imagine deciding that EKGs were not useful because many patients with chest pain did not have EKG changes. That is what we have been doing for decades when we reject a biomarker because it does not detect a DSM category. We need to begin collecting the genetic, imaging, physiologic, and cognitive data to see how all the data — not just the symptoms — cluster and how these clusters relate to treatment response."

185 comments

  1. Hey! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    are based on a consensus about clusters of clinical symptoms, not any objective laboratory measure.

    They could all be Climate Scientists!

    1. Re:Hey! by ttucker · · Score: 1

      I would mod this +1

    2. Re:Hey! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Accccccchssshhhhsshmed?

      Is that you?

    3. Re:Hey! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Why is noone talking about the Caananites that were killed by the jews. Ohh that's right they are all dead. And unlike the Nazis who killed jews (and insignificant others) due to racial hatred; God told the Jews to kill the caananites, and therefore the extermination is completely justified.

      +1 for political correctness. Mel Gibson can drive drunk, cheat on his wife, denigrate women, and it is cool. Now if he says something against Jews. Well, that can not be tolerated.

    4. Re:Hey! by Sique · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They could all be Climate Scientists!

      No. Then they would need measurements. Lots of them. Millions of them. So much measurement, that some people just sit there, overwhelmed by the sheer number of data points and claim, that no one could ever make any sense of it and thus we should just mind our own business and go away.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    5. Re:Hey! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're not supposed to be here!

    6. Re:Hey! by TWX · · Score: 1

      They could all be Climate Scientists!

      that could be their secret...

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    7. Re:Hey! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, that's climate change deniers, ignoring the evidence... just like you.

              mark

  2. Obviously the work of super-intelligent Rats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Clearly they have a plan, and goals that are not compatible with that of humans.

    Our only hope? Super-intelligent space-monkeys.

  3. About time! by gagol · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I had internal infections misdiagnosed as depression for over 4 years before physical symptoms appeared. This is a good thing to avoid these kind of errors in the future. How the hell can a doctor prescribe SSRI without measuring the actual levels first?

    --
    Tomorrow is another day...
    1. Re:About time! by LurkerXXX · · Score: 5, Insightful

      SSRI's are measured in the blood. Blood levels may or may not reflect the levels in the part of the brain in question for any particular disorder. There's no way to get a 'real' level without a biopsy, which I'm guessing you'd not be real fond of getting.

      It's hard enough for physicians to diagnose ailments in other parts of the body when patients present aytpical symptoms, as often happens. When it happens when the brain is involved, where our understanding much less than it is in every other part of the body, misdiagnosis are bound to be common.

      Should testing at treatments be better? Yes. Which is why it is good that they are questioning the whole DSMC and rethinking how things should be done in catagorizing and diagnosing issues with the brain.

    2. Re:About time! by gagol · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The less we "try and see what happens" with drugs messing with the brain's chemical balance the better. I am just glad I finally went under the knife, recovered wonderfully and to be back to work. However, I lost a little fortune in time out of work, plus the nightmare that are those drugs when you don't need them.

      --
      Tomorrow is another day...
    3. Re:About time! by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Informative

      I had internal infections misdiagnosed as depression for over 4 years before physical symptoms appeared. This is a good thing to avoid these kind of errors in the future. How the hell can a doctor prescribe SSRI without measuring the actual levels first?

      Levels of what?

      In my experience, it's reasonably common for psychological complaints to get some bloodwork; but mostly for known endocrine issues with fairly blatant psych manifestations. This isn't to say that instances of 'your thyroid is just phoning it in-itis' aren't missed; but that is something that they look for, especially if the SSRI of the month doesn't get results.

      Beyond the endocrine markers you can get from a blood draw, though, the invasiveness of sampling goes up fast and the quality of baseline data to compare you against goes down fast.

    4. Re:About time! by nightcats · · Score: 2
      It's a start, and something I was merely hoping for when I wrote this:

      When it comes to mental health, our science is at an infantile or at best adolescent level of development. Next month, it brings us a new bible of pathology — the DSM-V, which will tell us again how many ways we can be sick, yet with no guide as to what mental health actually is or how it might be strengthened. That, it appears, must become a common effort — crowdsourced, if you will. One of the founding documents of our nation insists that government allow us the “unalienable right” to seek happiness; but no state or institution can actually deliver it.

      --
      Development is programmable; Discovery is not programmable. (Fuller)
    5. Re:About time! by gagol · · Score: 1

      It would be nice to have some tests to determine if the problem is related to some chemical imbalance. I know I a, asking for a lot, but I also find the current medicine to be quite easy to diagnose this or that based on few symptoms. Taking SSRI when you dont need them is a very difficult experience to go through, much worse than anything I can think of. It made me either a complete zombie or very violent depending on the drug they tested. A simple echography would have shown the root cause and avoided the whole mess. I may have been victim of crappy doctors, but the taste in my mouth is very sour after all this. It just seems to me that doctors should spend more time in school, and less time on golf courses or cruises with pharma reps.

      --
      Tomorrow is another day...
    6. Re:About time! by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Informative

      Oh, I'd be the last to deny that the quality of mental health care is deeply uneven(with the limited exception of scheduled substances, where the DEA may end up knocking on your door) if it's FDA approved, any doctor can prescribe it, so there are a lot of drugs being handed out either by dubiously qualified generalists, or by the wrong flavor of specialist. My point was just that, since our knowledge of the brain is so poor(and our methods for sampling an in-vivo brain so... crude) the list of objective chemical markers dwindles alarmingly swiftly once you get past a relatively short list of endocrine issues.

    7. Re:About time! by Runaway1956 · · Score: 2

      A slightly paranoid person might buy into the theory that Big Pharma doesn't WANT to cure patients. Instead, they want to hook people on life-long "cures" that prove to be very lucrative.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    8. Re:About time! by Runaway1956 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm in over my head already - but, it seemed to me that TFS was saying this very thing: "since our knowledge of the brain is so poor(and our methods for sampling an in-vivo brain so... crude) the list of objective chemical markers dwindles alarmingly swiftly once you get past a relatively short list of endocrine issues."

      They want to stop being witch doctors, and actually research causes and effects. Guessing at problems, then experimenting with various drugs to see what results they give is little more than witch doctoring.

      Yeah, I clicked some of the links, but I get even further over my head with each click. ;^)

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    9. Re:About time! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      not really that paranoid -- drug companies love things like diabetes which need lifelong treatment. Look how many catheter commercials there are on TV in the last few years for another example

    10. Re:About time! by gagol · · Score: 2

      Very well taught post. Thank you for sharing it.

      --
      Tomorrow is another day...
    11. Re:About time! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      A non slightly paranoid person might realize most of the medical research in biology looking for cures is done by university researchers with grants from the NIH with about at $30 Billion/year budget. Who are not folks trying to hook you on anything.

      And that most of the research money the Pharma companies spend is on doing clinical trials to see which ones actually work in humans after the university researchers have found potential candidates testing in cell cultures and animal models.

    12. Re:About time! by pepty · · Score: 4, Informative

      And that most of the research money the Pharma companies spend is on doing clinical trials to see which ones actually work in humans after the university researchers have found potential candidates testing in cell cultures and animal models.

      Hell no. About 15% of drugs come from academic research, the rest are invented by biotech or pharma companies. For the most part academic labs identify new drug targets. Most of the compounds they develop to test their hypotheses are for the most part useless as actual active pharmaceutical ingredients due to toxicity, bioavailability, and metabolism.

    13. Re:About time! by pepty · · Score: 1

      A slightly paranoid person might buy into the theory that Big Pharma doesn't WANT to cure patients. Instead, they want to hook people on life-long "cures" that prove to be very lucrative.

      Actual cures would be much more lucrative. If pharmas had a choice, they'd develop a cure rather than a treatment for any serious chronic disease. Unfortunately, for most non-infectious diseases a "cure" would mean making a fundamental and permanent change in how your body operates. Which pretty much means gene therapy, something which we really don't have a handle on yet.

    14. Re:About time! by pepty · · Score: 1

      It would be nice to have some tests to determine if the problem is related to some chemical imbalance.

      Give it fifteen years. Your doc will have you snort a dose of a labelling compound up your nose (privileged route past the blood brain barrier) like it was a line of cocaine or inject you with the labelling compound attached to little piece of a rabies protein ( another way to get stuff past the BBB). Then they'll pop you in an MRI machine and generate a 3D map of serotonin concentration in your brain.

    15. Re:About time! by mad+flyer · · Score: 2

      [source needed]

    16. Re:About time! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      As a researcher I can confirm this, but also the parent.

      Traditionally the drug companies have relied on methods equivalent to "brute force" programming, test a library of a few thousand possible drugs and see which works. But this is getting harder, it seems they have run out of low hanging fruit, so instead they take some existing understanding and use that to make the drug. By doing this they get the drug and the profit but only by relying on taxpayer funded research. Remember the drug does not need to have been made by government researchers to be reliant on tax funded research for its existence. The researchers find a target the drug companies take it from there, but increasingly it is the first part that is most expensive.

      It may in fact be cheaper for society to do all this on the government dime, there is a lot of waste in the drug industry a lot of it from its very nature as private research. Fixing this would involve the government massively increasing research funding and deliberately killing an industry, not likely in the short run.

    17. Re:About time! by LurkerXXX · · Score: 2

      Shhh, don't bring logic into into it! I have a lot of stock in the tin market.

    18. Re:About time! by icebike · · Score: 1

      I had internal infections misdiagnosed as depression for over 4 years before physical symptoms appeared. This is a good thing to avoid these kind of errors in the future. How the hell can a doctor prescribe SSRI without measuring the actual levels first?

      Yes it is about time.
      Even those in the profession realized the DSM was a growing embarrassment, stubbornly clung to to avoid admitting the emperor was stark naked.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    19. Re:About time! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I hear they're raking in millions on that smallpox cure every year now!

    20. Re:About time! by pepty · · Score: 4, Informative

      [source needed]

      Sorry, a couple of years ago I looked at a year's worth of drug approvals and came up with 15%. The actual data (1998-2007) say 24% came from academia:

      http://www.nature.com/nrd/journal/v9/n11/full/nrd3251.html

      Firewalled, but there is a great discussion at In The Pipeline that breaks out the numbers:

      http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2010/11/04/where_drugs_come_from_the_numbers.php

      Of course more and more university research is funded by Pharma these days, especially the efforts that are most likely to lead to new drugs. Which column would you put that drug in?

    21. Re:About time! by tibit · · Score: 1

      Speak for yourself. I'd be the first in line to have such a biopsy done, were it to be routine in differential diagnosis for, say, depression. These days they have the anesthesia/analgesia down pat, one would have to be truly crazy to reject an objective measure just because there's a biopsy involved. I've had my septum straightened out under very local analgesia just to skip school. And I walked to and from the hospital uphill both ways in a blizzard :)

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    22. Re:About time! by tibit · · Score: 1

      Now they are out of targets where search space scales linearly with findings. They have an exponential decay in findings to fight with, and you can't with with an exponential by brute force.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    23. Re:About time! by fluffy99 · · Score: 1

      A slightly paranoid person might buy into the theory that Big Pharma doesn't WANT to cure patients. Instead, they want to hook people on life-long "cures" that prove to be very lucrative.

      Actual cures would be much more lucrative. If pharmas had a choice, they'd develop a cure rather than a treatment for any serious chronic disease. Unfortunately, for most non-infectious diseases a "cure" would mean making a fundamental and permanent change in how your body operates. Which pretty much means gene therapy, something which we really don't have a handle on yet.

      It would be naive to not understand that like most large businesses, the pharmas are driven financial motives which drives their research and product development cycles. Just look at how they magically have a new drug ready to replace the old one right about the time their patent expires and all the generic manufacturers are set to suck up any profit. It doesn't matter if the old drug was effective and had lower side risks, the company will pour money into advertising to convince people they need the latest and greatest drug. As we've seen that sometimes leads to inadequate testing prior to widespread adoption.

    24. Re:About time! by pepty · · Score: 2

      The researchers find a target the drug companies take it from there, but increasingly it is the first part that is most expensive.

      Ok, my turn to demand a source: Which target took $4 billion to identify?

      Right now the industry side spends $135 billion on R&D for which it gets ~30 new drugs approved per year plus new research on already approved drugs. Most of that is spent on phase II and III clinical trials, which are costing up to $100M each these days. For pretty much all drugs the vast majority of money and man hours are spent on developing and proving the drug (in industry), not on the target.

      It may in fact be cheaper for society to do all this on the government dime, there is a lot of waste in the drug industry a lot of it from its very nature as private research. Fixing this would involve the government massively increasing research funding and deliberately killing an industry, not likely in the short run.

      A little of that waste in private research is due to university research: most of the targets identified in the literature turn out to be irreproducible or unusable:

      http://blogs.nature.com/news/2011/09/reliability_of_new_drug_target.html

      I think there's a lot of room for an enlightened government to more efficiently turn dollars into drugs than the present system, but I'm not convinced yet. Especially not now with the congressmen in charge of the NIH dumping peer review for their own religious and political views.

    25. Re:About time! by pepty · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It would be naive to not understand that like most large businesses, the pharmas are driven financial motives which drives their research and product development cycles.

      Absolutely, which is why i said they would prefer to sell a cure.

      Say it will take 8 years and 3 billion dollars in R & D to get your next product to market. It will be either a cure or a treatment for a chronic disease: your pick.

      1. The treatment will compete with all of the other treatments on the market for marketshare. The cure won't have marketshare: it will have the market. There will be no competitors - until another cure is approved, that is.

      2. Price. As far as the accountants at your insurance company are concerned, the cure isn't competing with the price of a dose of the treatment: it is competing with the entire cost of treating your disease until you die (or become someone else's problem). As long as the cure comes out cheaper than a decade of doctors bills, hospitalizations, tests, and lots of different pills, it's a good deal for your insurance company. The treatment, on the other hand, could only hope to command a portion of that revenue stream

      3. Risk/time value of money. Would you rather be paid your next 10 years salary today or once a month over the next 10 years? Someone who buys your cure pays you in full, today. You book all of that revenue while you are still CEO and take home your bonus. Someone who buys your treatment pays you a little at a time until they switch to a competitor's drug. Or until they die. They are an uncertain revenue stream, not a sure thing.

    26. Re:About time! by pepty · · Score: 1

      Now they are out of targets where search space scales linearly with findings. They have an exponential decay in findings to fight with, and you can't with with an exponential by brute force.

      Do you mean blocking protein-protein interactions as opposed to blocking protein-small molecule interactions? They did buy a few orders of magnitude of brute force by using antibodies as drugs: immune systems and recombinant molecular biology are a lot faster than chemists at coming up with new drug candidates.

    27. Re:About time! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Non defence research for America was $54.9 billion in 2009, biology will be more than 10% of that. (this excludes every other country in the world too)
      That failure rate is not unexpected and wont be different for internally developed drugs, a 95% cut-off for certainty means that about 1 in twenty times you test you will get a false positive. This is why you confirm before trying it in people. I was not however so much talking about using drugs taken from academic research as relying on target pathways or interaction maps or protein models etc from academic sources as necessary filters or input.

      In addition to repeated or parallel experiments and reduced research speed due to hidden results you also have the massive costs of overstated effectiveness driving excessive prescription and also that of understated side effects. The motives for doing this could be eliminated from the trials, if they where government run, but this introduces its own costs. I have no idea whether it would be better or worse but it is a matter worthy of examination, I cant find the sort of figures that would be necessary to come to a conclusion.

    28. Re:About time! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's no way to get a 'real' level without a biopsy, which I'm guessing you'd not be real fond of getting.

      Stop being such a patronising wanker.
        I don't like injections either, but I sure as hell got my tetanus shot after I stood on a rusty nail.
      Fuck you asshole.

    29. Re:About time! by kermidge · · Score: 1

      Amen. My first reaction on seeing and reading the submission encompassed "No shit, eh?" to "About fucking time!" and continues. I've had increasing dissatisfaction with the DSM through the last several revisions in particular; my impression is that the too many of the people involved have been infected by political correctness to the detriment of clear thinking (and some will say that the 'squishy sciences' are unclear by definition.... but that's another discussion.)

      I look forward to seeing results from NIMH and RDoC. For popcorn lovers the shakeout should be interesting all by itself.

    30. Re:About time! by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
      How the hell can a doctor prescribe SSRI without measuring the actual levels first?

      Most patients would object to a brain biopsy.

      And even doing one would give very little insight into the actual dynamic processes inside the synaptic clefts. It's not a simple issue of "there's too little serotonin in your system", but rather a "there's too little serotonin within the synaptic cleft for the sensitivity and number of receptors to reliably cause an action potential in the receiving cell when required" ...

    31. Re:About time! by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
      I don't like injections either, but I sure as hell got my tetanus shot after I stood on a rusty nail.

      A tetanus shot usually doesn't leave permanent neurological damage. Having a hole drilled into your skull and bits of brain tissue removed for a biopsy will.

      Then again, you might not notice the difference.

    32. Re:About time! by John+Allsup · · Score: 1

      One trained to investigate serious fraud would recognise this mindset as the 'who benefits' meme that goes around those circles.

      --
      John_Chalisque
    33. Re:About time! by John+Allsup · · Score: 1

      And that's why there are papers floating around in the literature pointing out that there are often correlations between the 'best drug' in a clinical trial and the sponsoring corporation.  (See Moncrieff's straight talking introduction book.)

      --
      John_Chalisque
    34. Re:About time! by John+Allsup · · Score: 1

      It's interesting how a drug appears to be 'best thing since sliced bread' in early clinical trials and becomes 'as bad as the first generation drugs' when the patent expires and company X has a new wonder drug on the market.  If you actually look at abstracts using something like the Trip database, you get the feeling that bad trials are getting hidden (like if you went to Amazon and all reviews were 4* or better).

      --
      John_Chalisque
    35. Re:About time! by Onymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      I think maybe you have a naive or incomplete view.

      You don't think big pharma do tons of their own drug discovery? They just get leads from academia?

      If I ran a pharmaceutical company I wouldn't let you anywhere near executive management or the board. You don't get it. The idea of me-too drug development would totally blindside you.

    36. Re:About time! by epine · · Score: 1

      the cure isn't competing with the price of a dose of the treatment: it is competing with the entire cost of treating your disease until you die

      Wrong, wronger, and wrongest. One imagines a "cure" is only given to people who have an actual medical problem (presumably to develop an actual cure, the mechanism of disease is fully exposed). Uncures are not so narrowly constrained.

      Statins are consumed (or potentially consumed) by hundreds of millions of people with nothing more than a statistically elevated risk of possibly developing heart disease according to some rather arbitrary marker. Note that the marker and its risk levels are carefully engineered by the finest statistics money can buy to circumscribe the largest possible group of people while still achieving statistical validity without needing to conduct a trial of more than about 10,000 subjects, since that gets expensive, too (and negative results become that much harder to shuffle out of sight into a bottom desk drawer).

      If pharma hits the pitch just right, they can treat 100 people to little or no benefit for every person they outright cure, and the drug will appear efficacious nevertheless through the dim lens of population studies.

      In order for your analysis to hold water, you need to cure pharma of diluting immense benefits to the few into an ocean of revenues from the many.

    37. Re:About time! by pepty · · Score: 1

      the cure isn't competing with the price of a dose of the treatment: it is competing with the entire cost of treating your disease until you die

      Wrong, wronger, and wrongest. One imagines a "cure" is only given to people who have an actual medical problem (presumably to develop an actual cure, the mechanism of disease is fully exposed). Uncures are not so narrowly constrained.

      Statins are consumed (or potentially consumed) by hundreds of millions of people with nothing more than a statistically elevated risk of possibly developing heart disease according to some rather arbitrary marker.

      Those markers aren't to determine whether the patient has the disease, they're to determine whether the treatment is (maybe) appropriate for the patient.

      A cure for atherosclerosis (what statins aim to treat) would be sold not just to everyone currently prescribed a statin for high chloresterol, but pretty much everyone, full stop. Not everyone has atherosclerosis due to high LDL chlolesterol (the indication for statins), but everyone has (or will have) atherosclerosis. Arterial plaque starts in teenagers and is almost universal in the elderly. It directly causes most cardiovascular disease. The market for such a cure would be pretty much everyone over 40 with access to a deep enough pocket to pay for it. The main risk would not be that it would capture only a small part of the high-cholesterol market; the risk would be governments all over the world overriding the patent after the normal "highest price the market will bear" marketing scheme is announced.

      In order for your analysis to hold water, you need to cure pharma of diluting immense benefits to the few into an ocean of revenues from the many.

      Not at all. There will be times when lots of people have the same symptom but only a few have the same root cause. A cure for that root cause would profitably treat those few - and leave the rest of that market for that symptom intact.

    38. Re:About time! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oh...so what would ~you~ recognize it as then?

    39. Re:About time! by edi_guy · · Score: 1

      No, no, no...you have Big Pharma all wrong...they are here to help people: "Over 120 cancer researchers and doctors have published a paper calling out Novartis specifically for its pricing on the cancer drug Gleevec (marketed as Glivec outside the US). The doctors point out that it can cost over $100,000 per year for Gleevec currently. And, Novartis has been continually jacking up the price. There had been concern when the drug was first introduced a decade ago, that it was priced way too high at $30,000, leading the company's then CEO, Daniel Vasella, to acknowledge the complaints, but to argue that it was "a fair price." Well, now the company is pricing the drug at more than three times what it thought was a fair price, and it should be no surprise that people think this is outrageous profiteering by abusing a government granted monopoly to charge way more than any fair market price would allow." http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130429/07200822872/doctors-call-out-novartis-insane-pricing-cancer-drug.shtml

    40. Re:About time! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And how many of those drugs approved that came from Pharma wouldn't have been possible without academic research?

    41. Re:About time! by pepty · · Score: 1

      Not many, but that's also a completely different assertion. Just because you discovered a target or created an animal model doesn't mean you've invented a drug. It also doesn't mean you've done most of the work involved in inventing a drug, the riskiest work involved in inventing a drug, or the hardest work in inventing a drug.

    42. Re:About time! by LurkerXXX · · Score: 1

      We are talking about a biopsy from the relevent part of the body in discussion. The brain.

      You really want to risk a brain impairment for a "routine" diagnostic test?

      Maybe it wouldn't matter in your case, but most folks would instantly reject that.

    43. Re:About time! by tibit · · Score: 1

      There are risks and trade-offs, whether in engineering or in life in general. I'd say whatever a biopsy might mess up is nothing compared to life-long depression.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    44. Re:About time! by sjames · · Score: 1

      It's better than that! They actually cannot measure the levels, it's all a guess.

      As you might gather, that means the over-simplified 'chemical balance' theory uis bcked ny no real evidence at all, particularly when the medications involved have not been part of a truly blind study.

      They are, however, quite profitable.

  4. Psychiatry is not medicine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Psychiatry is not medicine.

    The cynic in me thinks that most of psychiatry is concocted to sell pills (often of dubious efficacy), but I appreciate that mental health issues are real.

    That being said, I am pretty sure that the vast majority of mental health conditions are caused by lifestyles VASTLY different than the conditions under which our species evolved.

    1. Re:Psychiatry is not medicine by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      So are the vast majority of dental health conditions... Psychiatry is what happens when you may have some fancy reason for your mental health condition; but that isn't exactly going to get you out of waking up and punching the clock tomorrow morning... Unless you are independently wealthy, or possess a very indulgent family, the amount of leisure time you have to take off from the daily grind of modernity and nurse your psychological woes is very, very, limited indeed. Plus, being mentally diseased makes you a cost center, just as physical disease does, plus it carries a nontrival social stigma! The efficacy may not be so hot; but there's a reason why the demand for pills that will paper over the problem as quickly and quietly as possible is as large as it is. (Oh, and, um, incidentally, a milligram of clonazepam and a pint of beer reduce anxiety about the same amount; but only one is blatantly obvious on your breath and difficult to take without drawing attention to yourself at work... Just, an, um, theoretical observation).

    2. Re:Psychiatry is not medicine by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Informative

      As opposed to good ol' fashion psychology? Aka the "you want to fuck your mother" syndrome. No thanks. I'll take the happy pills. It worked for Neo.

      Psychoanalysts have been mostly confined to the English/contemporary lit departments for quite some time now. Talk therapy is still very much a thing; but old-school analysts are pretty thin on the ground these days.

    3. Re:Psychiatry is not medicine by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      The cynic in me thinks that most of psychiatry is concocted to sell therapy sessions

      FTFY

      What's the hourly rate for a psychiatrist these days?

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    4. Re:Psychiatry is not medicine by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Excuse me, but Neo rejected the happy pill, and took the reality pill. Had he chosen the happy pill, the story would have ended right there.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    5. Re:Psychiatry is not medicine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Psychiatry may not be medicine per se, but yes, they most certainly are medical doctors and they do prescribe a boatload of medications. As someone who met a DSM classification at 18/19 years old and medicated on many of these drugs for 24 years and off of them for 1 year, I do have some facts and opinions on the subject.

      I meet the DSM classification for bipolar disorder II to a tee. And the last 5-10 years of taking medications was a complete misery for me. I got hooked up with a doctor that kept giving me more and more medications to "solve" the problems caused by taking so many medications. I was on benzodiazepines for years and was given stronger and stronger versions of them and was having anterograde amnesia. I described this in great detail to my doctor. People would joke at me at work because I could not remember hardly anything. And the doctor put me on meth to counter the drug induced amnesia. In 2 weeks I was absolutely nuts from taking the meth and took myself off. It was not until the doctor left the country and I saw another one that the new one weened me off of the benzos. I then took myself off of the "anti-psychotics" and then took myself off of lithium. My brain and kidneys and liver could not take these medications any more.

      Coming off of these drugs was not easy. Especially the lithium after being on it for 24 years. In fact, I lost my job and was "crazy" for many months. I eventually moved in with my parents and stabilized and started a new job after about 7 months after losing my last job. I still have minor mood swings, but no more or less than I did when I was on the medications. I have greatly altered my diet and quit taking all street drugs, tobacco, and drinking of alcohol and I exercise regularly. I'm pretty confident that drugs and alcohol made me bipolar in the first place because I have only been "manic" when coming off of drugs or had manic symptoms being triggered by psychiatric drugs.

      I have my ups and downs, but overall I'm more stable and happy and clear thinking without these medications.

      More on topic, I think that the DSM is way overrated. One of the symptoms of bipolar disorder is thinking clearly. I will attest that I am not "normal", but I've also read where in "under developed" countries that bipolar people lose like 6 years of functioning life and in "developed" countries they lose 5 years. To me, that is the same degree of impairment, especially when one considers the stigma of being labeled and medicated as "mentally ill", and the cost and commitment towards being on the special med merry-go-round.

      For those of you that do not know, there is no panacea with these drugs. You literally keep rotating them around and your symptoms/side effects change over time and it never stops. These drugs are to be taken for a lifetime, and habituation to them makes it very difficult to come off of them, and they have almost caused me to die more than once.

      I've never been given anything besides a DSM test for diagnosis. Never a blood test, a genetic test, or anything 100% valid. And until that happens and I function well, I am not ill anymore. Being off of lithium actually helps me in that I can sense what actually triggers my mood swings and I do not feel like I am on emotional training wheels.

    6. Re:Psychiatry is not medicine by EricTheGreen · · Score: 2

      Psychoanalysis != the entirety of non-pharma clinical psych. therapy. Quite a few approaches still in use, particularly along cognitive/behavioral lines.

    7. Re:Psychiatry is not medicine by Livius · · Score: 1

      It doesn't have to be either/or. I think they've figured out there are plenty of both kinds of suckers to exploit.

    8. Re:Psychiatry is not medicine by siride · · Score: 1

      It's generally a lot cheaper than other medical care. Go to a hospital and come back and complain to me about a 40 dollar copay at a psychologist's office.

    9. Re:Psychiatry is not medicine by seebs · · Score: 1

      No, you broke it. It was, if not right, at least coherent before.

      Psychiatrists are the ones that are MDs and prescribe medicine. The ones who sell therapy sessions are psychologists and counselors.

      --
      My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
    10. Re:Psychiatry is not medicine by AJWM · · Score: 1

      Are you sure? Neo takes a pill and becomes the chosen one and gets the girl. You sure he wasn't laboring under a delusion caused by the pill he took, with just a little grittiness thrown in to make it convincing?

      (See also: Total Recall)

      --
      -- Alastair
    11. Re: Psychiatry is not medicine by Ellie+K · · Score: 1

      Psychiatry IS medicine. A psychiatrist is a medical doctor, must have an M.D. first, then specialize in psychiatry. Some (many?) so-called mental health conditions are caused by lifestyles vastly different than those under which we evolved, granted. Let's exclude them.

      Chronic depression is terrible. I was less than 40 years old when my husband, my father, and my little baby died. I cried every day, for two years, no end in sight. I didn't remember to eat, comb my hair, brush my teeth, change clothes. I'd wander around my neighborhood in my nightgown, giving what little money I had to anyone who was homeless, because it was the only thing, their smiles, that relieved the sorrow for a tiny moment. Finally, I went to a psychiatrist. Treatment wasn't tranquilizers (Valium), anti-psychotics or stimulants. The very first anti-depressant the doctor prescribed started to help after about three weeks. No side effects, just that I had to take it at the same time each day, else I got a headache. We titrated the dose to the minimum level necessary to be effective. No brain biopsies or blood tests were necessary. Then I asked for the generic version, as it is a lot cheaper.

      I still cry a lot, but I remember to eat and sleep. I got a used Toshiba Satellite laptop for $50, learned CSS and some Web 2.0 stuff, re-learned SAS, SPSS and some Fortran. I got a job (only part-time was available) working from home, which paid more than enough to cover rent and food for me and my mother. It was contract work, so I'm looking again, but I think I can find something. I doubt any of this would be possible without the psychiatrist and anti-depressant medication.

      There are plenty of whiny, self-indulgent malingerer's in this world. Lots of attention-seekers too. One could certainly argue that they have problems! But they are not of the sort that require medication, or care of a psychiatrist. I will be happy when I don't need medication or care either.

      --
      tempus fugit
    12. Re:Psychiatry is not medicine by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      I was working on the assumption that 'you want to fuck your mother' syndrome was a specific reference to analysts, rather than all the various flavors of psychological talk therapy in general(which, as you say, are very much present).

    13. Re:Psychiatry is not medicine by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      It's generally a lot cheaper than other medical care. Go to a hospital and come back and complain to me about a 40 dollar copay at a psychologist's office.

      Depends on your insurance coverage and/or how medical services are structured, labeled, and possibly subsidized in your jurisdiction.

      Because GPs/PCPs have been recognized more widely, and much longer, as a standard medical maintenance/first line diagnosis and care feature, if you have healthcare access at all, you probably have access to some sort of MD who can legally prescribe most drugs, including common psych drugs. They won't necessarily be especially well qualified in that specialty; but they will be able to do it.

      Getting a psychologist, if you are under a less classy insurance plan, can be a bit more exciting(and paying out of pocket will be Not Cheap), and insurers often have somewhat onerous and byzantine restrictions on number of sessions per year, total length of regular treatment, etc.(Not that it was relevant to me; but I once had an employer-provided policy that would provide more days of inpatient detox/rehab than it would sessions of outpatient talk therapy in a given calendar year, go figure...)

    14. Re:Psychiatry is not medicine by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      He got the girl for a short bit. The story didn't end an a real happy note. Of course, there is plenty of room for a sequel, but Neo and Trinity were both pretty screwed the last time I checked on them, and not screwing each other, either.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    15. Re:Psychiatry is not medicine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Psychoanalysts have been mostly confined to the English/contemporary lit departments for quite some time now. Talk therapy is still very much a thing; but old-school analysts are pretty thin on the ground these days.

      Not entirely true. I would argue that the psychoanalytic tradition is alive and well. It's changed with the times, but not all the changes are bad.

      You're correct in thinking that "traditional" or "old-school" psychoanalysts are a small minority (they've always been a small minority). That's because in traditional psychoanalysis, you meet with the patient several times a week, and you're supposed to be credentialed by a psychoanalytic institute (the credentialing process takes a long time and includes the requirement that you undergo your own lengthy psychoanalysis). Most therapists don't have time for all that and most patients don't, either.

      But there are lots of good psychiatrists and psychologists who do "psychoanalytic psychotherapy". They're keeping all the basic ideas of psychoanalysis-- an emphasis on revealing the unconscious (or subconscious if you're a Jungian), an emphasis on discovering unconscious processes through "indirect" methods (dreams, Freudian slips, etc), close attention to transference and counter-transference, a lot of time spent discussing early and formative relationships (yes, you may be asked about your mother). The main difference is that you meet with the therapist once a week or so, just like in other types of therapy. Also, the therapist might or might not be affiliated with a psychoanalytic institute.

  5. The Psycho Docs Are At It Again. by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 0

    Yes, of course we can't continue to have a well established resource compiled and validated by large numbers of mental health professionals that stigmatizes Differently Challenged people with labels of mental illness. Folks, we need to empower Differently Challenged folks to harness their Different Challenges. Anything less would be cause fatal damage to their Different Self-Esteem model.

    Good grief, what are these psycho-cooks who publish this DSM thing thinking? Tom Cruise tells me the DSM is a load of hooey.

    We can't have this.

    --
    If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    1. Re:The Psycho Docs Are At It Again. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seem a little "off" yourself.

    2. Re:The Psycho Docs Are At It Again. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In my professional opinion, he's a fucking nut. At least the DSM-V says so.

    3. Re:The Psycho Docs Are At It Again. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      It's just the thetans.

    4. Re:The Psycho Docs Are At It Again. by Aardpig · · Score: 1

      Xenu would like to see you about your overdue audit. Please make an appointment with the receptionclam.

      --
      Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
    5. Re:The Psycho Docs Are At It Again. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      all that from a person that cannot even spell 'summary'.

      lord save us.

  6. Makes it easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    to redefine "mental illness" broadly so that gun rights can be more easily denied.

    1. Re: Makes it easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Step 1: If one is so delusionally paranoid that they think they need an AR-15 to protect their suburban home from invasion, they are mentally unfit to own a weapon.

    2. Re: Makes it easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You, sir, are absolutely, 100% correct. No one should EVER have an AR-15 for defending a suburban home. That is absurd. All of us here, in the Detroit suburbs, know DAMN WELL you need an M134 minigun at a bare minimum.

    3. Re:Makes it easier by Black+Parrot · · Score: 0

      Careful there, paranoia is already established as a mental illness.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    4. Re:Makes it easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When they come for the the guns of the masses that ever got scrips for Adderal or Prozac, it won't be as funny to those that have records of having taken those in their jackets.

    5. Re: Makes it easier by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      I'm comfortable with bolt action carbines. An M-14 is good. Never had any use for an M-15 or -16 - I just don't like them. Miniguns? FFS . . . I guess a real man like Rambo would pick it up and shoot from the hip, right?

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    6. Re: Makes it easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm Rambo and I approve this message

    7. Re: Makes it easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice red herring. No one mentioned an AR-15.

    8. Re:Makes it easier by tepples · · Score: 1

      Careful there, paranoia is already established as a mental illness.

      If Paranoia is a mental illness, will Max 300 get you committed?

    9. Re: Makes it easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    10. Re: Makes it easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      M-14 isn't bolt action dude, it's semi auto

    11. Re:Makes it easier by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      No, it's the reverse. Right now, a mental illness is anything that produces apparent symptoms that a doctor can interpret as satisfying certain criteria. Start acting really oddly and the authorities can probably find some psychiatrist willing to classify you into a DSM-5 category. Heck, the Soviets had a defined mental illness that was basically being a political dissident.

      The NIMH proposal is to try to put this on a more scientific basis, so mental illness can be diagnosed objectively (and we can find cures by better means than simply trial and error). Assuming they succeed, denying somebody civil rights of whatever sort will require certain tests to come out with certain values, reducing the ability of authorities or family to railroad somebody.

      Really, not all the government is out to get you.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  7. We need a true expert's opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So what does Tom Cruise think about this? Apparently, he knows the history of psychiatry.

  8. Good or bad news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Will this help Mrs.Frisby and her children, or cause them more hardship?

  9. these weaknesses by WGFCrafty · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Were already well known. Considering we don't know too much about the organic causes of most mental disorders I'm curious about what they mean. Is schizophrenia mediated by glutamate or dopamine? We know dopamine antagonists help some people but not too much more.

    1. Re:these weaknesses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do have a point. The success of these drugs, such as Clozapine, is limited. Realistically speaking, we're no better off than we were when we used good old shocks or beating the asylum inmates with clubs. And you have to admit, beating and shocking people is WAY more affordable and fun! Instead of being a drain on resources, we could actually turn mental health into a profit center. There's lots of people, myself included, who would pay money to beat or shock an inmate.

    2. Re:these weaknesses by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      Were already well known. Considering we don't know too much about the organic causes of most mental disorders I'm curious about what they mean.

      Good point. If they're launching this as a research initiative, we should expect a decade or more before it starts traditional methods.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    3. Re:these weaknesses by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      You sound as if you should hit the personal ads. There are people who would pay you to administer a good safe beating. Or, if you need the beating, you can hire a nice dominatrix. There's no need to incarcerate people to beat on. There's not even any need to pay or be paid by anyone - it's common for S&M and B&D people to trade services even up.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    4. Re:these weaknesses by Rich0 · · Score: 2

      Is schizophrenia mediated by glutamate or dopamine? We know dopamine antagonists help some people but not too much more.

      I think the whole idea is that in the future you won't be diagnosed with schizophrenia. Instead you'll be diagnosed with having too much/little dopamine production, causing symptoms of schizophrenia. The treatment for too much/little dopamine will unsurprisingly be a drug that affects dopamine production.

      Coming up with a treatment for schizophrenia is like coming up with a treatment for nausea. Some people with nausea respond really well to coronary stents, and others don't respond at all to this with a few even having alarming side-effects like death. The reason is that you'd have to be an idiot to prescribe heart surgery simply because somebody had nausea, but you wouldn't be an idiot to check their blood oxygenation or check for cardiac enzymes, and if those tests don't turn out well then looking more closely at the heart makes a lot of sense.

      Behavioral problems aren't actually the problem - they're just how problems in the brain manifest themselves, just as chest pain or nausea or shortness of breath are how heart problems often manifest themselves.

      That said, it will be a while before we the new approach is better than the old. However, it does make a lot of sense to move in this direction with research, in the hopes of coming up with game-changing treatments.

    5. Re:these weaknesses by WGFCrafty · · Score: 1

      Totally agree, but the problem is we have been researching the brain for a while and know very little.

  10. DSM - the "zero tolerance" of medicine by Gothmolly · · Score: 0

    You feel a certain way, and you have symptom X? Sorry, Citizens, DSM says you have Unavoidable Statism, and now you and your children and your DNA swabs are public property forever.

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
  11. Wow, it only took them this long by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    not any objective laboratory measure. In the rest of medicine, this would be equivalent to creating diagnostic systems based on the nature of chest pain or the quality of fever. ...

    In the early 1990s, I was prescribed drugs because "there's too much dopamine up there". They didn't measure jack. They just came up with this out of the blue based on how I was behaving.

    The absolute lack of measurement was readily apparent to me, even in my state which after decades was most likely undiagnosed autistic spectrum disorder and post traumatic stress from all the crap that happens when spectrum kids get bullied in school.

    Dopamine up there? How the hell couuld they know without a measurement.

    The other problem with DSM is that it's too normative. Homosexuality is a "disorder", but then when you start treating homosexuals nicely they suddenly become less traumatized, more come out, and you realize that most of them aren't as sick as you thought, and that a lot of the sick ones are like that because you marginalized them in the first place.

    First things first though. Come up with something to measure at least before you even pass judgement on it being normal, and then MAYBE you can try to come up with how much deviation from the mean is healthy. Posted AC for obvious reasons...

    1. Re:Wow, it only took them this long by Omestes · · Score: 1

      "there's too much dopamine up there"... "was most likely undiagnosed autistic spectrum disorder and post traumatic stress from all the crap that happens when spectrum kids get bullied in school."...

      So your problem with unscientific psychobabble is that it was the wrong type of unscientific psychobabble?

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    2. Re:Wow, it only took them this long by seebs · · Score: 1

      What he said wasn't exactly super formal clinical language, but it certainly fits a pretty well-observed pattern. People do not deal well with autistics.

      --
      My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
    3. Re:Wow, it only took them this long by Omestes · · Score: 1

      Which is neither here nor there... Autism is just as scientific as a non-measured dopamine imbalance, when it comes down to it. Less so, even, since no one can really point to a brain or test and say "yep, there's your autism problem right there".

      This obviously doesn't mean autism doesn't exist, or rather the cloud of behaviors that we currently label "autism" doesn't exist. Autism is very much a diagnostic "shrug" right now, nothing more than a loose collection of behaviors and severities. At one end you have people who aren't mentally "ill" (it doesn't impair their ability to function at a high level), and at the other you have non-verbals who bang their heads into walls who can't even communicate. You have a vast array of symptoms, which aren't even shared between all individuals. And you have very little to no science backing it up.

      Again, I'm not saying that people don't have it, or what people feel isn't real... But there is no difference between autism and a non-measured dopamine disorder... outside of the fact that we CAN measure dopamine, and it can be low... but at the moment we can't measure autism.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    4. Re:Wow, it only took them this long by seebs · · Score: 1

      You can't measure a single/unified physical thing, but you can very definitely measure autistic traits. There's a heck of a lot of measurements out there that show noticeable and fairly consistent patterns.

      And so far as I can tell, a whole lot of that disparity in outcomes is less a question of differences in brains than of the environments people are in over a long period of time. I melt down pretty badly if I'm badly stressed for a long time, but put me in a livable environment and I'm practically like people!

      --
      My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
    5. Re:Wow, it only took them this long by Omestes · · Score: 1

      And so far as I can tell, a whole lot of that disparity in outcomes is less a question of differences in brains than of the environments people are in over a long period of time.

      Actual scientific answers to things like this would go a long way. My girlfriend used to work with people with sever autism (nonfunctioning), and we have a couple friends with highly functional aspergers (not counting the self-diagnosis, which I always mistrust), and the difference is mind-blowing. I don't think environmental causes alone can account for such a discrepancy, really they might as well be different disorders (not that I'd consider highly functioning aspergers to be a "disorder", per-se, more a cognitive difference). I wouldn't be surprised if Autism was fractured into several separate disorders, and the lowest end of the spectrum was shaved off someday when we realized that not everyone works the same, or responds to stimulus the same way.

      "More science" is my answer to everything though...

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
  12. it's demons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it's demons that cause psychiatric illnesses, so they will have a hard time finding the science of that, it's the same with the cause of cancer, demons also, so no cure can be found. What is needed is deliverance and healing prayer to fix these problems and there are so few people who do deliverance properly...

  13. Wow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just because I fucking hate the non-science that is Psychiatry, did you guys know that early DSM editions listed homosexuality as a treatable (with drugs) mental illness. I'm not making this shit up... There is not enough money in the world to restitute the hundreds of millions of people who are first-generation guinea pigs for incredibly dangerous drugs which are used to treat "diseases" which are derived from thin air falsely called science.

    1. Re:Wow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Haven't seen much success on the unicorn or Jesus fronts.... got any other suggestions?

    2. Re:Wow... by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      Not considering homosexuality a "problem" that needs to be "cured"? That's the approach we've used for republicanism --- though perhaps not the best example of "success."

  14. Good luck with that by russotto · · Score: 2

    And I mean it sincerely. Sure, the DSM just categorizes sets of symptoms. But the problem with basing diagnoses on actual conditions is we have little idea what those actual conditions are, and not for lack of research.

  15. What it's really about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... is selling more drugs by defining more and more mental disorders and trapping more and more people by those diagnoses.

  16. Treat causes not symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Perhaps this is the beginning of the end for treating the symptom instead of the cause.
    This won't be an easy effort, but there is so much potential to improve things for so many people.
    I have never been able to believe that medication is always the answer- sometimes just understanding is the answer, but that's something the current culture of psychiatry isn't usually able to provide.
    We can't all have ADD, and a one size fits all solution can't possible be highly effective for such a broad set of symptoms with some many different possible causalities.
    Next step is to try to figure out how to contribute in some way. Still have to get over fear of failure first. Luckily I don't have fear of being ridiculed when posting AC on Slashdot!
    Seriously though, try telling a psychiatrist you have trouble starting and completing projects without getting hit with an ADD diagnosis. You can practically see them mentally flipping through DSM pages. "But I'm pretty sure it's anxiety." "Take this stimulant and don't worry about it." You can imagine how well that ended up.
    I for one welcome our new personalized mental health treatment overlords.

    1. Re:Treat causes not symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "We can't all have ADD"

      No, but we can all have Ritalin prescriptions, which is our God-given right. It's in the Constitution, on page 6. It clearly states "And the right of the people to keep and bear prescriptions for Schedule II controlled substances shall not be infringed, especially if they have Medicaid"

    2. Re:Treat causes not symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Once upon a time a woman in nowheresville was diagnosed with Multiple Personality Disorder just like 13 other people that year were. After this case became famous there were 60 000 cases the next year. Turns out the patient and doctor were faking the illness. Good old psychiatry looking for a pill to push.

  17. troll article? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The New Scientist article -- whoops, guest editorial -- is titled "Psychiatry divided as mental health 'bible' denounced", but 'denounced' is a ridiculous overstatement. NIH/NIMH are simply announcing a new cross-category funding program that will step back and question the field's traditional assumptions.

    Either the guest editorialist didn't RTFA, or else is just using the occasion to inject their personal views into public sight.

    Or else just trolling.

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    1. Re:troll article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The New Scientist article -- whoops, guest editorial -- is titled "Psychiatry divided as mental health 'bible' denounced", but 'denounced' is a ridiculous overstatement. NIH/NIMH are simply announcing a new cross-category funding program that will step back and question the field's traditional assumptions.

      Yes. They are finally applying science to the field, as none has been employed before.

    2. Re:troll article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh damn... you burst my bubble. I didn't rtfa (i'm not new here). For a bit I thought there was a sudden outbreak of common sense. Should've known it was too good to be true. Oh well, I guess the bigoted DSM is here to categorize humans as animals to justify cruel remedies for decades to come.
      Captcha: sleeps

    3. Re:troll article? by omni123 · · Score: 1

      Either the guest editorialist didn't RTFA, or else is just using the occasion to inject their personal views into public sight.

      Or else just trolling.

      I don't think that is exactly fair--the title and the summary seem perfectly accurate to me (especially given that it's basically a copy and paste from the actual article). The NIMH is indeed distancing itself because if you had read the RTFA, they will not be funding research that targets DSM categories alone any more, which has the potential for a _huge_ impact on thousands of researchers working right now.

  18. umm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Gooooooooooood?

  19. "Reliability" - now there's a euphemism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The strength of each of the editions of DSM has been 'reliability' – each edition has ensured that clinicians use the same terms in the same ways. The weakness is its lack of validity."

    I'm imagining a police interrogator talking to a suspect. "You know, you've really been very good about ensuring that you and your friends all told us the same story. There's only one problem: that story's bullcrap, and we can prove it."

  20. The Secret of NIMH by terbeaux · · Score: 1
    1. Re:The Secret of NIMH by FooAtWFU · · Score: 1

      Yes, there's a movie with NIMH in the title, and it came out in the 1980s, and it's sometimes regarded as the pinnacle of American hand-drawn animation. And the film diverges substantially from the book it was based on in order to express an allegory on the promise and the perils of atomic energy, and it provides a useful contrast to the attitudes expressed in other 1980s films dealing with similar issues (like Blade Runner - especially the director's cut, Aliens, and Rock-a-doodle).

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    2. Re:The Secret of NIMH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've always read that as "The Secret of Nickel Metal Hydride".

  21. DSM can be useful, but not useful enough to keep by gnoshi · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm really glad this has come about, not because the DSM itself is a useless book but because the attitudes towards it lead to some gross errors of judgement.

    The DSM can be useful: if one clinician wants to communicate to another at a fairly high level the symptoms a patient is experiencing, then a DSM-defined disorder can be a reasonably efficient way of doing this. Also, the DSM does group together some symptoms which tend to occur as clusters under labels which can provide cues for looking for related symptoms which might otherwise be missed.

    However...
    People make the mistake of thinking that because something is listed in the DSM it is somehow a 'real disease'. The Epstein–Barr virus is a real disease: it is caused by a specific virus. Type I Diabetes is a real disease: it is caused by the loss of insulin-producing cells in the pancreas (although there is the more distal cause of the cell loss). Depression is not a real disease, in this sense - at least, not at the moment. It is a cluster of symptoms which when the occur together are referred to as Depression. Nothing more. (That isn't to say a 'disease' will not actually be identified at some point, but I suspect that will be for a specific subtype of depression, not depression as it is currently classified).

    On the radio yesterday, I heard an 'aspie' - who under DSM 5 will no longer be an 'aspie' since Aspergers will no longer exist in its current form - talking about how it was great when he was diagnosed because they finally knew what was wrong with him. The problem is this: they didn't and still don't know what's wrong - just that his symptoms fit a commonly observed pattern, and that there are particular interventions to try to address the associated deficits. Having a listing in the DSM doesn't make things any more or less 'real', but some/many people imagine that it does. Just because there isn't a diagnostic criteria for a very shy child (although I imagine one could be found if looking hard enough), that doesn't mean that there aren't programmes to help the child be more comfortable with social interaction.
    This becomes most manifestly a problem when conducting genetic, neurobiological, or even treatment research into the causes for 'a disorder'. Because these disorders are symptom clusters, and often have substantial variation in presentation, they are at times artificially grouped for research. This can hinder research into specific subgroups who show more common characteristics. Similarly, if there is a presentation which includes two DSM disorders (e.g. depression and anxiety, which is a very common comorbidity) then these people will tend to be systematically excluded from research because they are defined as 'having comorbidity'. Are both 'disorders' caused by the same underlying cause? Who knows, but being separate DSM disorders means that this group tends to be very underrepresented in research.

    On top of this, there is the involvement of vested interests in the development of disorders, there is the interpretation of things as 'wrong' because they are a DSM disorder, etc.

    In summary, the DSM can be useful for clinicians to communicate a summary to each other, when accompanied by further detail. It can provide gross groupings for treatment research, but lacks finesse of distinction which could help tailored treatments to individual characteristics rather than the broader presentation. People suddenly seem to think something is 'real' because it appears in the DSM, and so push to have ever more 'disorders' included. This all makes DSM as much of a hindrance as a help to good research and mental health practices.

  22. But the experience is the condition by guanxi · · Score: 1

    Unlike our definitions of ischemic heart disease, lymphoma, or AIDS, the DSM diagnoses are based on a consensus about clusters of clinical symptoms ... Imagine deciding that EKGs were not useful because many patients with chest pain did not have EKG changes. That is what we have been doing for decades when we reject a biomarker because it does not detect a DSM category.

    Heart attacks are physical events; the muscles in the heart stop contracting, risking death. The patient's experience of it is relatively unimportant, except as an indicator of the physical event. It's the heart attack that needs treatment.

    But for mental problems, the patient's perceptual experience often (usually? always?) is the condition that needs treatment. If the patient experiences depression, that is the problem. The physical conditions may be helpful as indicators of the perceptional condition, but it's the depression that needs treatment.

    1. Re:But the experience is the condition by pepty · · Score: 1

      In the rest of medicine when a group of symptoms tend to travel together without any observable root cause/latent variable they call it a syndrome.

    2. Re:But the experience is the condition by PhamNguyen · · Score: 1

      The problem with your critique is that the DSM classifications are themselves clusters of symtoms. So what is being proposed is to shift from "cluster symtoms, then try to find things associated with these clusters" to "cluster symtoms, along with genetic, imaging, physiologic, and cognitive data".

  23. Awesome! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Its about time we brought this field out of the realm of guesswork and into the realm of objectively verifiable science.

    Well done!

  24. Re:DSM can be useful, but not useful enough to kee by Livius · · Score: 2

    Asperger's is an excellent example of this, where knowing something about the disorder, what symptoms go together, and what strategies are effective at managing it, is extremely useful. The 'diagnosis' is of enormous practical value.

    But it's not a disease in the sense of a specific diagnosis, nor are they even confident that it is a single disorder, and, at least at present, it certainly doesn't point towards a cure or anything beyond management of symptoms.

    So it's useful, but definitely not 'diagnosis' in the same sense that, for example, identifying Mycobacterium tuberculosis would diagnose tuberculosis.

  25. Re:DSM can be useful, but not useful enough to kee by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    On the radio yesterday, I heard an 'aspie' - who under DSM 5 will no longer be an 'aspie' since Aspergers will no longer exist in its current form - talking about how it was great when he was diagnosed because they finally knew what was wrong with him.

    SO, he'll be cured when this new version comes out.

    Hurray!

    There's hope!

    Now, if they'll only remove the personality disorder(s) I suffer from.

    And "Alcoholism".

    No, it's called being a M-A-N; you pussies!

  26. NIMH is not a rechargable battery by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    when I saw NIMH I was thinking about Nickel–metal hydride batteries. didn't realise that NIMH stood for National Institute of Mental Health. i learned something new today.

  27. This Should Go Well by meehawl · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Nerds opining on psychiatric diagnosis...

    This should go about as well as psychiatrists opining on monads...

    --

    Da Blog
    1. Re:This Should Go Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, tell me: do you really mean to sum everyone here up as "nerd", and by that do you imply twentysomething, with no life experience... kid?

      For one thing, psychoanalysts are still around, plenty of them. For another psychologists are not all happy with that. A good friend of mine, doctorate-degreed praticing psychologist, is pissed when she talks about how they got *one* day of training on psychopharmaceuticals, and psychiatrists, being "MD"s, are the ones with extensive training in them. Note also that at least some psychology is based on repeatability, while psychiatrists... "what if you never got to * your mother, Eliza?" (and go read "One Flew Over the Cucoo's Nest", or Haldeman's 1968, if you want the other side of "psychoanalysts")

              mark

    2. Re:This Should Go Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But you don't understand. We know COMPUTERS! This means we're well qualified to talk about anything remotely scientific.

  28. But does this mean... by Velex · · Score: 1

    But does this mean that having a female mind and a male reproductive system no longer means that I'm a serial killer who's constructing a woman suit? Does this mean when they scan my brain and find that it's psysiologically more female than male (these things aren't exact) that it just means that I'm a woman, not that I have a mental illness? What would we ever do if not for the DSM V? Thank you DSM V for acknowledging that being a woman is a mental illness! This post brought to you by b33r.

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  29. Re:DSM can be useful, but not useful enough to kee by Kjella · · Score: 1

    That's all well and nice, but the practical reality is that it goes:
    Symptoms -> Diagnosis -> Treatment

    Except for very basic symptom treatments like painkillers if you're in pain you usually need a diagnosis before you get started on treatments, even if it's not entirely correct or the treatment might not work. If my general physician sees I'm under the weather and should stay in bed for a couple of days he still needs to put some kind of general condition on the sick notice like a non-specific virus infection. Until you get a diagnosis you are in many ways in medical limbo, which is why it matter so much.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  30. Rechargeable batteries? by rossdee · · Score: 2

    Do these guys have the patent on Nickel Metal Hydride batteries?

    And there was a movie called the Secret of NIMH

    1. Re:Rechargeable batteries? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And there was a movie called the Secret of NIMH

      It's the same NIMH. The batteries are unrelated.

  31. Re:DSM can be useful, but not useful enough to kee by Pfhorrest · · Score: 2

    A further problem with the "if it's listed in the DSM it's a real disease" attitude is the conflation of conditions with disorders. Just because someone has a particular, identifiable pattern of thought and behavior, which may be useful to name and document, does not mean that that person has something wrong with them that they need fixed. I'm thinking in particular here of conditions frequently found in members of the neurodiversity movement, who may very well have some identifiable distinct difference from your typical person, but who would deny vehemently that it is a problem that needs correction.

    There's definitely some use in a patient being able to say "I notice that I tend to do this that and the other thing and they're making my life problematic, can you help me change" and being able to put a name to that pattern and apply techniques known to alter it. It's another thing entirely for a doctor to say "I notice you seem to do this that and the other thing, you have a disease and I can treat it and make you better". Identifying and naming the patterns is great. Calling them disorder or diseases or something that implies a defect in need of correction, instead of a perfectly benign difference that doesn't necessarily need treatment, is a problem.

    --
    -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
    "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
  32. Legal Consequences? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm curious what percentage (or number) of court cases might bear re-visiting once "the experts" have declared all versions of DSM rubbish (when DSM had been used to reach the verdict).

  33. Re:DSM can be useful, but not useful enough to kee by Aardpig · · Score: 2

    The neurodiversity movement is a load of wank. It's like claiming your car is otherly-powered when the engine falls out.

    --
    Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
  34. Re:DSM can be useful, but not useful enough to kee by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's like claiming your car is otherly-powered when the engine falls out.

    And yet if the car keeps going, is that an incorrect statement?

  35. the DSM was political by r00t · · Score: 1

    The other problem with DSM is that it's too normative. Homosexuality is a "disorder", but then when you start treating homosexuals nicely they suddenly become less traumatized, more come out, and you realize that most of them aren't as sick as you thought, and that a lot of the sick ones are like that because you marginalized them in the first place.

    The concept of a mental illness is fundamentally normative. Even if you think homosexuality is perfectly OK, you need to admit that it was removed for purely political reasons. Objectively it is clearly abnormal: perhaps 1%, perhaps 3%, whatever... but TINY.

    If you insist on adding the requirement that there be harm, and you want to dismiss the suicide issue as a trauma result, the situation is still pretty clear from numerous viewpoints. In the USA, AIDS is still primarily a homosexual disease. I can even argue this from an atheist viewpoint: if something prevents offspring in the Nth generation, impacting one's evolutionary fitness, then it causes harm. (and we all know what the typical Christian/Muslim/Jew would argue)

    Given that we've already found brain differences, this new system seems like it can not avoid bringing back homosexuality as a medically accepted illness. This is not to say it can be treated or that any future treatment would be worthwhile, because the cure can be worse than the disease. Nearly nobody is going to risk surgical and/or genetic brain modification to become heterosexual. Almost certainly it would be considered unethical to even attempt such a risky modification.

    BTW, there tend to be differences between the brains of republicans and democrats. Care to declare one of them in need of treatment? (sure, the other team!)

    1. Re:the DSM was political by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Evolution is not moral, evolutionary theory describes what happens not what we want to happen, evolutionary fitness is irrelevant in moral considerations, unless it's outcomes are bad for a specific reason. So unless you considered children a moral duty your "atheist viewpoint" is stuffed with straw.... or has been copied from someone who wanted to paint atheists in a bad light by suggesting they have to ascribe to "social Darwinism"

    2. Re:the DSM was political by Znork · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and broken bones are most commonly a symptom of sports so obviously sports should be classified as a cluster of diseases.

      And of course, if failure to produce offspring was actually some form of harm, the catholic priesthood should probably be diagnosed. Atheism, at least in the form of secular humanism, in general does not concern itself with where folks stick their parts or argue any moral obligation to reproduce.

    3. Re:the DSM was political by r00t · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and broken bones are most commonly a symptom of sports so obviously sports should be classified as a cluster of diseases.

      There is an optimum level of physical activity. If you get seriously far from this, then yes you do have a mental problem. (land luge, skiing Mount Everest, diving with gases more exotic than helium...) We might not bother forcing you to get treatment; this would deprive us of seeing you earn your Darwin Award on youtube.

      And of course, if failure to produce offspring was actually some form of harm, the catholic priesthood should probably be diagnosed.

      Yes, except for the fact that the beliefs which lead to priesthood are actually the norm. The norm is exempt from being an illness, even if it is wacko.

      Atheism, at least in the form of secular humanism, in general does not concern itself with where folks stick their parts or argue any moral obligation to reproduce.

      I never said "moral". This is more of a "you fail" issue.

      I suppose I do think that the healthy and intelligent people have some obligation to reproduce, but somebody who lacks the proper urges (one way or another) might not really be healthy anyway.

    4. Re:the DSM was political by Sique · · Score: 1
      The problem with your argument is that humans don't live alone, or as separate families without contact to the neighbours. It has been proven that larger groups of humans are more stable, and their children have a better survival rate if there is someone here to take either care of the children at times when the biological parents can't, or work on tasks people with children can't perform very well at. It is so important that there are childless people in a group of humans, that about every type of society developed their own concept of childless persons, be it monks, eunuchs, vestal virgins, deacons, aunts or whatever they are called.

      Your argument would be akin to claiming that worker ants are an illness of an anthill, because worker ants don't reproduce.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    5. Re:the DSM was political by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      A trait that is rare is not necessarily a disease, or abnormal in the medical sense.

      I doubt a full 3% of the population can wiggle their ears independently, but I can. Do I have independent-ear-wiggling disease?

      On almost every standardized test I took when young, I was in the top percentile for math. Do I have a mathematics disorder?

      Does homosexuality cause harm? It reduces (but does not eliminate) the chance of children, but a lot of other things do that also. It frequently carries a social stigma, but if that counts as harm the Soviets were right in tailoring a mental disorder for political dissidents. Nor is predisposing somebody for a disease a disease itself.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  36. Re: commonly observed pattern... by girlinatrainingbra · · Score: 1

    RE: gnoshi sez: The problem is this: they didn't and still don't know what's wrong - just that his symptoms fit a commonly observed pattern, and that there are particular interventions to try to address the associated deficits. [emphasis mine]
    .

    But that's exactly what happened with Parkinson's Disease, and still is happening with Parkinson's Disease. Dr. Parkinson observed a common pattern in a group of patients. These patterns of symptoms and behaviors constituted a syndrome which began to be called "Parkinson's Disease" after Dr. Parkinson died. (I guess he didn't have the ego to name it after himself :>) )
    .

    There are many many possible causes for Parkinson's (even bad drugs can cause it, which is how they found out a lot about it), and it's taken almost two-hundred years to keep learning about it. All of these various causes end up with the same ultimate (theorized) endpoint: that there is not enough dopamine in a particular part of the brain called the substantia nigra (black substance, or black region). The fact that the real cause of Parkinson's is not known or fully understood even today does not mean that Parkinson's is not a disease.
    .

    The fact that something is not in the DSM manual also does not mean it has been disallowed as a disease: it just means that it is not in that particular and specific compendium. And now, the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) is saying that the DSM is not the final arbiter of what constitutes a mental disorder or psychiatric disorder. In other words, I also completely agree with your conclusion using different words of my own. :>)

  37. Re:DSM can be useful, but not useful enough to kee by seebs · · Score: 1

    Actually, he won't be "cured". He'll have autism spectrum disorder, rather than asperger syndrome, most likely. I can't see a way someone could have an AS diagnosis under DSM-IV and not be considered ASD under DSM-V.

    --
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  38. Re:DSM can be useful, but not useful enough to kee by seebs · · Score: 1

    Uh, no.

    Look, imagine that we discovered that about 2% of our population were heavily vulnerable to simple trickery, like they were much more enthusiastic about a 10% chance of survival than a 90% chance of mortality, even though they're the same thing. And they were easily manipulated by actors who knew how to show a particular emotion on command. And they had some cool things, like they were unusually good at reading emotions from facial expressions, but overall they had crippling problems that made it hard for them to function like rational adults.

    Now, consider: If 98% of people were ASD, and 2% weren't, that would be what we'd have. We'd have a diagnostic criterion for "obsessive social behavior", but some people would argue that these poor overly-socialized kids are actually pretty tolerable once you get used to them, and maybe we should just accept that there's a few people who have this driving need for social interaction and can't focus on work and hobbies like normal people.

    Neurodiversity isn't about dysfunction, it's about function that really is different, and not necessarily obviously better or worse.

    --
    My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
  39. Re:DSM can be useful, but not useful enough to kee by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    But it's not a disease in the sense of a specific diagnosis, nor are they even confident that it is a single disorder, and, at least at present, it certainly doesn't point towards a cure or anything beyond management of symptoms.

    1) Maybe you meant spectrum disorder?

    2) Who calls Asperger's a disease?
    Asperger's is a Syndrome, which is medical speak for "a collection of frequently comorbid symptoms for which we may or may not have found the cause(s)."

    Please understand the words you're using and their definitions in a medical context.

  40. before physical symptoms appeared. by girlinatrainingbra · · Score: 1

    Re : I had internal infections misdiagnosed as depression for over 4 years before physical symptoms appeared.[emphasis mine]
    .
    May I respectfully ask how you could expect anyone to diagnose something which had no physical symptoms manifesting for four years? It's not like doctors have magic. They have to base their diagnosis and diagnostic procedures based upon the history and physical: the history and information given by the patient and the physical exam performed to assess the patient's physical well being.
    .
    If no physical symptoms manifest, whether as things that could or could not be tested for by blood tests or by scans of any type, how could anyone predcit or deduce its existence? There's a problem that also occurs when doctors overprescribe or overuse tests: they get trounced on for "overusing or overprescribing tests or scans"!! The doctor can only do things based upon the evidence presented...
    .
    As to the last sentence of your, I sadly have to agree with you about "How the hell can a doctor prescribe SSRI without measuring the actual levels first?"
    .
    The drug companies' pharmaceutical reps (representatives, salesman and saleswomen really) go to doctors and try to persuade them to prescribe certain drugs, the ones that their company makes. Many primary care doctors (such as internists or family physicians) who ought not be prescribing drugs which should be prescribed by specialists such as psychiatrists end up prescribing drugs such as SSRI's because of the marketing and because of the pressure from patients. That part is so sadly true. They ought not do that; I agree with you there. Did you see a specialist or a general practitioner?

    1. Re:before physical symptoms appeared. by gagol · · Score: 1

      Since my white cells were higher than normal and I acutely lack energy, I think it could have been more thoroughly investigated. It would have ended being cheaper and more effective. I got started on SSRI by a general MD, and then went to a highly regarded specialist in the field. It did not helped that schizophrenia background exist in my family and my relatives went out of their way to steer the doctors in that direction. I still believe the doctors butched this one out of laziness. Since I live in a country whit public healthcare, I have little chance to fight in court and get back damage for the butched job. Only when I got an acute crisis, did the healthcare system investigated out of concern for my life, which was real. The only thing that kept me alive was a strong immune system and good lifestyle habits. After that was said and done, I am just glad to be healthy again.

      --
      Tomorrow is another day...
    2. Re:before physical symptoms appeared. by girlinatrainingbra · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry to hear about that. Thank you for sharing the details. I'm sorry that the doctors jumped the gun based on a family history without considering the other possible physical and organic causes. That's the whole point of psychiatrists being M.D.'s: they're supposed to think like medical doctors so that they can rule out things like tumors in the brain or infections that could cause symptoms. I'm also glad you're healthy again. Best wishes for the future.

    3. Re:before physical symptoms appeared. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      May I respectfully ask how you could expect anyone to diagnose something which had no physical symptoms manifesting for four years? It's not like doctors have magic. They have to base their diagnosis and diagnostic procedures based upon the history and physical: the history and information given by the patient and the physical exam performed to assess the patient's physical well being.?

      If you've ever had a medical condition that has depression as a symptom, you just watch how fast 'depression' becomes your diagnosis. Once they decide you are showing signs of depression, they will refuse to investigate further. Personally I know three people with Hashimoto's, they were on antidepressants for 3, 5 and 6 years respectively. Another friend who suffered Graves disease, in the emergency room they pulled her husband aside and gravely informed him that his wife had schizophrenia and need to be in a locked mental ward. In my own case when I got sick, I knew enough to lie to the doctors.

    4. Re:before physical symptoms appeared. by ttucker · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry to hear about that. Thank you for sharing the details. I'm sorry that the doctors jumped the gun based on a family history without considering the other possible physical and organic causes. That's the whole point of psychiatrists being M.D.'s: they're supposed to think like medical doctors so that they can rule out things like tumors in the brain or infections that could cause symptoms. I'm also glad you're healthy again. Best wishes for the future.

      Yeah, the DSM says you are depressed, take this SSRI.

  41. "problem" and "need" are relative by r00t · · Score: 1

    Is ADHD a "problem" that needs to be "cured"? How about Aspberger's or the inability to spell words like that? What risks and side effects would be tolerate? Suppose it requires brain surgery or virus-mediated genetic engineering with a 7% risk of death and a 29% risk of survival with disability.

    Here we have people who are obviously abnormal (maybe 1% or 3%, whatever), who obviously have brain structure differences, and who are obviously having problems. They are far more likely to commit suicide. In the USA, they are far more likely to get HIV. By any objective measure, we ought to be searching for a cure.

    Most of them don't want a cure, or at least won't admit to wanting one. We can save money by not bothering! This reminds me of the sad situation of deaf people who seek to make deaf children (no joke) and who view people who get cochlear implants as being sort of like traitors or sellouts. If most deaf people were this way, we'd never have developed any treatments.

    1. Re:"problem" and "need" are relative by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      Here we have people who are obviously abnormal (maybe 1% or 3%, whatever), who obviously have brain structure differences, and who are obviously having problems. They are far more likely to commit suicide. In the USA, they are far more likely to get HIV. By any objective measure, we ought to be searching for a cure.

      I suppose you also think we should find a cure for being black (or other reviled minority) in heavily white-racist dominated regions? Guess what: the "cure" that works is treating your fellow gay human beings like human beings. In societies where being openly gay, publicly admitting the fact that you love your same-sex partner, isn't treated as less human than being equally openly heterosexual, the problems with suicide and risky sexual behavior vanish away. By this diagnosis, *you* are the cause of the deleterious symptoms of being gay. A "cure" for homophobia would fix all the problems. Your disgusting faked "compassion" for homosexuals --- seeking to "cure" them when you are the disease --- is a virulent strain I hope will die out in society. Just be glad that I'm not so "objective" as you are so as to wish to hurry that along by less than natural processes.

    2. Re:"problem" and "need" are relative by r00t · · Score: 1

      I suppose you also think we should find a cure for being black (or other reviled minority) in heavily white-racist dominated regions?

      Black people don't randomly get born to white people.

      Better comparisons can be had with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, with Down Syndrome, and with people who are born deaf. We should avoid treating them as less human... does this mean we should not seek to prevent or cure these issues? People with all these issues are treated as less than human, yet they can live their lives. Are they OK? Maybe you think the rest of the world is the problem, and these people are in no need of cures?

    3. Re:"problem" and "need" are relative by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      Black people don't randomly get born to white people.

      So what? They still live suckier lives when surrounded by racist haters. By your logic, they should bleach their own skin and never let anyone see who their parents are, rather than fighting back against racism.

      You love being obtuse to justify your hate, don't you? The only "problems" with being gay are created entirely by haters like you, who mistreat gays because you've decided that the shape of their body is wrong for the shape of bodies of people they are attracted to. Being blind, or mentally disabled: you actually can't do the same things an "average" adult can, and require different treatment to compensate. Being gay: *exactly* like being any other normal human, aside from the fine mechanical details of copulation, for which haters think they should burn in hell, despite having *zero* impact on how they live the entirety of their public lives outside the bedroom. So, yes, when a "problem" can be fixed merely by an attitude change in others (which won't bring back sight to the blind or IQ points to the mentally handicapped), then I do think "the rest of the world is the problem".

  42. Re:DSM can be useful, but not useful enough to kee by Sique · · Score: 1

    Then it's all downhill from there.

    --
    .sig: Sique *sigh*
  43. Re:DSM can be useful, but not useful enough to kee by John+Allsup · · Score: 1

    Unfortunately the 'it's number X in the DSM' shortcut thinking means that if clinician A makes a mistake, clinician B is likely to believe clinician A's opinion without critical analysis and just assume that the original diagnosis is correct.  Roll on a few more meetings with clinicians and the 'the previous n clinicians could'nt be wrong' mentality means that a diagnosis is likely to stick whether correct or not.

    --
    John_Chalisque
  44. NiMH? by v.dog · · Score: 1

    What happened to using Lithium?

    --
    Don't Panic.
  45. Who gets to define "mentally ill"? by moeinvt · · Score: 0

    "Mental Illness" has been a central issue in the current debate about firearms. If the government is going to expand restrictions based on a determination of who is "mentally ill" they shouldn't also have the power to make the definitions.

    Anti-gun extremists regularly disparage firearms owners as being "crazy" or "nuts" simply because they happen to own firearms. If someone suggests that the U.S. government is devolving into a tyranny (with good evidence), they inevitably earn the label "paranoid".

    If new restrictions on civil liberties are applied to people who are "mentally ill" and government gets to make these decisions, they will just keep expanding their definition of "mental illness" to cover whomever they want to disarm. Sort of like they're doing with "terrorist".

    1. Re:Who gets to define "mentally ill"? by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      Just to clarify, Autism/Asperger's has nothing to do with "mental illness." It's a developmental disorder, not a mental illness. Autistic folks aren't usually violent and when they are, it's usually self-inflicted violence. My son has been diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome. He's nine, but has the social skills of a four year old and the intellect of a eleven or twelve year old. (You can imagine how hard it is to teach someone like that!) Mental illnesses are things like schizophrenia, depression, bipolar disease, etc. Autism Spectrum Disorder isn't in that category.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  46. Re:DSM can be useful, but not useful enough to kee by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People make the mistake of thinking that because something is listed in the DSM it is somehow a 'real disease'. The Epsteinâ"Barr virus is a real disease: it is caused by a specific virus.

    Not to be pedantic, but if you consider EBV to be a "disease," then depression would fall under the same category. EBV is a virus, yes, but the other important thing is that it's also the cause of mononucleosis, Burkitt's lymphoma, and nasopharyngeal carcinoma. The same applies to HIV and its later manifestation, AIDS.

    Depression is a disease, but everything involving the brain is just so complicated that we don't fully understand why it occurs. That shouldn't minimize the significance (and clinical manifestations) of depression.

  47. NIMH by Coppit · · Score: 2

    I hear the problem with the research is that the rats gain intelligence and escape the laboratory at NIMH. It's a secret, so you may not have heard about it.

  48. Re:DSM can be useful, but not useful enough to kee by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

    Actually, he'll be classified as "High Functioning Autism Spectrum Disorder." This is where many Aspies (myself included) are up in arms about the new DSM. While we recognize that Asperger's Syndrome is part of the Autism Spectrum, calling it "high functioning" makes it sound like you don't need any help. Just like when you say a child is "gifted" and people assume that means he or she will get straight A's with no effort whatsoever. My son (a Aspie) needs a lot of help with social situations. He doesn't understand them the way neurotypical people do and it makes him nervous. When he gets nervous, his anxieties flare and he acts out (talking nonstop, writing on himself, running around, making inappropriate remarks). He can have a series of good days where you might not even realize that he's on the spectrum and then BAM! a horrible day happens. We need teacher/school staff support to help him make it through his days without disrupting his and everyone else's education. Calling him "high functioning" might make it sound like he doesn't need any help at all and might make it harder to obtain that help from school districts eager to trim their budgets by reducing supports for special needs children.

    --
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  49. Also... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They'd have to learn to adjust them up or down to achieve their end goal. And don't forget making some up altogether via extrapolation. And they have to do all this with less knowledge of statistics than an undergrad.

    1. Re:Also... by i+kan+reed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I assume you're referring to the common deluded misinterpretation of the "climategate" emails, wherein someone used basic statistical principles to align a dataset, and a bunch of morons, without looking at the actual changes, immediately presume that this somehow negates an entire branch of study supported by basic thermodynamics, satellite observation, thermometer data, ice core samples, sea level measurement, and lots of non-corrected tree data.

      Right? That's what you mean?

    2. Re:Also... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bah!

      Climate Scientist don't understand basic statistical principals. Simple Engineers keep finding problems with their statistics.

    3. Re:Also... by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      Uh huh, sure. You've got some magic statistics 101 disproof of climatology now. Grand.

    4. Re:Also... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You may be able to read but you and the Climate Scientists definitely have a problem with Statistics.

    5. Re:Also... by Sique · · Score: 1

      They obviously do. The only project ever to disprove the climate statistics ended up in confirming their projections. So far no one else has proven the statistics wrong. And no, "I don't like the results, so they must be wrong" is no proof for anything.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
  50. HOORAY! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hell yeah! I really dislike the DSM and frankly psychiatry/psychology in general because of these categories and the wanton drug prescriptions to "treat" them. BUT I gotta say, I'm proud of these guys! (Not that anyone gives a damn :) or they're my kids, etc. etc.) This is a good move!

  51. Re:DSM can be useful, but not useful enough to kee by theedgeofoblivious · · Score: 1

    Asperger's is a lot more than being a "very shy child". There are sensory issues, prosopagnosia(the inability to recognize faces), and obsessiveness.

    And the "shyness" you described comes not from normal apprehensiveness or from past social failure but from a (sometimes complete) lack of social understanding, or a complete lack of social intuition. It's not that people with Asperger's or Autism want to be sociable and am just afraid to, or that they want to be sociable and don't know how. Sometimes autistic people don't understand that they're expected to interact in particular ways, or don't understand that they're supposed to interact at all. I can't explain how shocking it is every time I find out that other people have been interacting in ways that I had never conceived of.

    If only it was shyness, that would make things so much easier. It's not. Saying that Asperger's Syndrome is just being very shy is exactly the thing you're complaining about, identifying a symptom but missing its cause.

  52. Re:Homosexuality removed from DSM by Dareth · · Score: 1

    Homosexuality was removed from the DSM because in this modern day and age, being immoral is not abnormal.

    --

    I only look human.
    My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
  53. My opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And I meant it was sincerely. Sure, the DSM does not categorizes sets of symptoms. But the problem with basing diagnoses on actual conditions are we had little ideas what those actual conditions were, and not for lack of researches.

    alarmas

  54. actually its mainly for billing/insurerance by almechist · · Score: 1

    I'm really glad this has come about, not because the DSM itself is a useless book but because the attitudes towards it lead to some gross errors of judgement.

    The DSM can be useful: if one clinician wants to communicate to another at a fairly high level the symptoms a patient is experiencing, then a DSM-defined disorder can be a reasonably efficient way of doing this. Also, the DSM does group together some symptoms which tend to occur as clusters under labels which can provide cues for looking for related symptoms which might otherwise be missed.

    However... People make the mistake of thinking that because something is listed in the DSM it is somehow a 'real disease'. The Epstein–Barr virus is a real disease: it is caused by a specific virus. Type I Diabetes is a real disease: it is caused by the loss of insulin-producing cells in the pancreas (although there is the more distal cause of the cell loss). Depression is not a real disease, in this sense - at least, not at the moment. It is a cluster of symptoms which when the occur together are referred to as Depression. Nothing more. (That isn't to say a 'disease' will not actually be identified at some point, but I suspect that will be for a specific subtype of depression, not depression as it is currently classified).

    On the radio yesterday, I heard an 'aspie' - who under DSM 5 will no longer be an 'aspie' since Aspergers will no longer exist in its current form - talking about how it was great when he was diagnosed because they finally knew what was wrong with him. The problem is this: they didn't and still don't know what's wrong - just that his symptoms fit a commonly observed pattern, and that there are particular interventions to try to address the associated deficits. Having a listing in the DSM doesn't make things any more or less 'real', but some/many people imagine that it does. Just because there isn't a diagnostic criteria for a very shy child (although I imagine one could be found if looking hard enough), that doesn't mean that there aren't programmes to help the child be more comfortable with social interaction. This becomes most manifestly a problem when conducting genetic, neurobiological, or even treatment research into the causes for 'a disorder'. Because these disorders are symptom clusters, and often have substantial variation in presentation, they are at times artificially grouped for research. This can hinder research into specific subgroups who show more common characteristics. Similarly, if there is a presentation which includes two DSM disorders (e.g. depression and anxiety, which is a very common comorbidity) then these people will tend to be systematically excluded from research because they are defined as 'having comorbidity'. Are both 'disorders' caused by the same underlying cause? Who knows, but being separate DSM disorders means that this group tends to be very underrepresented in research.

    On top of this, there is the involvement of vested interests in the development of disorders, there is the interpretation of things as 'wrong' because they are a DSM disorder, etc.

    In summary, the DSM can be useful for clinicians to communicate a summary to each other, when accompanied by further detail. It can provide gross groupings for treatment research, but lacks finesse of distinction which could help tailored treatments to individual characteristics rather than the broader presentation. People suddenly seem to think something is 'real' because it appears in the DSM, and so push to have ever more 'disorders' included. This all makes DSM as much of a hindrance as a help to good research and mental health practices.

    I agree with most of what you say, but you make it sound like the purpose of the DSM is to allow clearer communications between doctors, and that isn't really the case in practice. That may originally have been one of the goals, but the plain fact is that nowadays the DSM exists primarily to facilitate billing and insurance claims. The big

  55. Re:DSM can be useful, but not useful enough to kee by seebs · · Score: 1

    If they don't change his GAF score, and people change their handling of him significantly, then people are doing something wrong.

    That said, I am pretty unhappy with the "high functioning" label these days; the idea that if you are mostly functional that means you don't need help is a great way to make people stop being functional.

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  56. Revolutionary by tripwire45 · · Score: 1

    I've long suspected that the way the DSM is constructed how mental illness is diagnosed has been manipulated by political, social and financial interests (medical insurance companies for instance). Our definition of what is and isn't a mental illness shifts over time. If those shifts were the result of ongoing research, it would be understandable, but as this article suggests, it's based on other factors. It will be refreshing to see a more scientific approach applied, assuming objectivity can be maintained and the causes and indicators of mental illnesses can be reasonably defined and observed.

  57. DSM = by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dude, Such Mess!

    Epilepsy categories are even worse! Most of them are incomprehensibly--and tautalogically--named after some long dead scientist or some one single mostly diagnostically useless symptom. Theyve absolutely no semantic value, and of course, no mapping to biomarkers.