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9th Grade Science Experiment: Garden Cress Won't Germinate Near Routers

Posted by Soulskill on from the are-the-routers-in-the-freezer dept.

New submitter SessionExpired writes "Five 9th graders from Denmark have shown that garden cress won't germinate when placed near a router (Google Translation of Danish original). Article text is in Danish, but the pictures illustrate their results. The exact mechanism is still unknown (Danish original), but experts have shown interest in reproducing the experiment."

23 of 327 comments (clear)

  1. No reproduction by quintus_horatius · · Score: 5, Funny

    experts have shown interest in reproducing the experiment

    Or not reproducing, as the case may be.

    1. Re:No reproduction by ankhank · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Outgassing from the plastic and electronics, I'll bet.
      Nice new routers, I'll bet. Loaded with stuff that's volatile.

      Did they try a Faraday Cage to rule out the radio waves?

    2. Re:No reproduction by mikael · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There are so many combinations:

      Does the router need to be switched on?
      What if there is just a transformer and cable, but not a router?
      Does the router need wi-fi enabled? In the 2.5GHz band? In the 5Ghz band?
      Does the router need to be in line-of-sight, or can it be hermetically sealed in a container?

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    3. Re:No reproduction by tlhIngan · · Score: 4, Informative

      The radio, and associated amplifiers, will generate the majority of the heat. Just look how much longer a cell phone will operate if you disable wireless. One must also take into consideration that wireless routers operate at higher power levels.

      Actually, cellphones are higher powered - I believe they top out at between 0.5-1W max transmit power. Your wireless router is typically anywhere from under 50mW to 100mW, though it's possible to get "long range" ones that do 250mW.

      Of course, a cellphone dynamically adjusts its power - in urban areas, it typically is close enough to a cell tower that it can crank the transmit power way down. This, of course, is to save battery (RF level amplifiers aren't efficient at all - they waste a lot of power). If you live in a poorly covered area, you'll note your battery life is a lot lower as a result of having to crank up the power to maintain the link.

      CDMA phones are interesting - the amount of power they use is proportional to usage as the more phones using it, the lower the SNR. You've hit the limit when everyone's transmitting at max power and the SNR is too low for successful correlation.

    4. Re:No reproduction by Khyber · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "Or just as likely, they just faked the data. "

      As someone that has performed similar radiation experiments as part of my research into zero-light horticulture, faking this is very doubtful, as I've encountered the same issues. Germination rates in the area of our facility with wireless access are roughly half of that on the other side of the shed that is totally free of radiation in that frequency range thanks to the natural faraday cage (the entire structure is grounded, metal walls and supports, etc.) that the facility provides. You can't even use your cell phone two feet inside the door.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    5. Re:No reproduction by s.petry · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's amazing to see how much venom people spew in order to avoid cognitive dissonance. "No, it can't be harmful because I like the stuff. Everyone that found it harmful must be a liar!".... *sigh*

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    6. Re:No reproduction by zazzel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The reason you bring up fraud is that it's what you would do if you wanted to force a result. People who don't consider that kind of cheat wouldn't jump to that conclusion.

      Excuse me, but that is clearly bullsh*t. Having gone through University will make you suspect fraud, but just because you have seen it everywhere left and right during your studies. From students cheating in math exams and "forgetting" references in their papers, to 100% faked studies published by high-ranking journals.

  2. Neither will... by dlingman · · Score: 5, Funny

    Your typical slashdotter probably sits closer to their router than the plants. And is about as likely to germinate.

  3. Need a control. by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    They should have used a control, and put cress near a lamp bulb that gives off the same amount of heat.

    Simplest explanation is the additional heat which was nearby but not enough to alter room temperature affected them.

    1. Re:Need a control. by jeffmeden · · Score: 4, Interesting

      They should have used a control, and put cress near a lamp bulb that gives off the same amount of heat.

      Simplest explanation is the additional heat which was nearby but not enough to alter room temperature affected them.

      Typical routers (i presume they are talking about an 802.11 router here) will emit 150 to 250 mW per radio. Even in a 3 radio version the total power is still less than 1W (depending on how high the bandwidth utilization was), and it's certainly spread beyond just the plate of seeds sitting next to it. That 1W of heat energy would have an amazingly small change in overall temperature on the subject, probably not even enough to measure with conventional instruments.

    2. Re:Need a control. by Megane · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The router itself generates heat, and the point of the root post was that it was the radiated heat that cause the result, not some puny low-power microwaves. I've had quite a few DSL modems "fail to germinate" because they overheated themselves. Right now at home I'm running one with the cover removed and a small heat sink (the only one I have small enough to fit between the capacitors, etc.) on the main chip.

      If they can get warm enough to burn themselves up, they can also get warm enough to prevent a seed from growing, if through no other means than making the seed think that it's the wrong time of the year.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    3. Re:Need a control. by lpevey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This comment is not really insightful. A lot of people even use electric heating pads underneath seed trays specifically to generate heat. I agree the experiment would have been even more impressive with controls wrt certain variables (including heat--why not), but it is extremely, extremely unlikely that, as the poster put it, "they can also get warm enough to prevent a seed grom growing."

    4. Re:Need a control. by Peter+H.S. · · Score: 4, Interesting

      They placed the AP's so that the heat they generated wouldn't affect the garden cress. Room temperature was computer monitored and regulated, the humidity was regulated, and they photographed the batches to document that no drying up or rot was present. They mixed the seed batches, randomized the seed selection etc etc.

      The experimental setup and their elimination of errors and bias is considered to of very high quality, which is why they won a junior science prize. Their actual result meant nothing in that regard.

      The first experiment was with idle AP's only broadcasting ESSID. The second experiment added some Linux laptops that ping-flooded to generate lots of network activity. The second experiment showed a clear increase in plant "damage" /lack of development.

  4. Not controlled for other factors by vivaoporto · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The experiment was setup to validate a foregone conclusion. The (probable, as I can't read the Danish complete report) untested control factor was the impact the different rooms had in the absence of the routers. Retesting both samples without the presence of the routers could fix this issue.

    Anyway, it is good science (it is testable and verifiable) but bad journalism.

    Unless it can be reproduced or its mechanism explained, it is nothing but fuel to add to the "communication radiation exposure is bad" hysteria.

  5. I'm pretty sure I'm already sterile by WillgasM · · Score: 4, Funny

    When I was 16 or so, I was working on my uncle's boat in Alaska. It was a slow day, so we were painting railings and such. I heard my uncle call my name, wondering where I was. I called back that I was on top of the wheelhouse. He went ahead and shut off the radar, but I'd already been standing next to it for and hour or more. I honestly don't mind since pulling out seems so unnatural. I guess if I ever want to have kids I'll just have to try harder and think fertile thoughts.

  6. near a WIRELESS router by Gothmolly · · Score: 5, Informative

    Thanks, Editor-dot, for not reviewing TFS. This was an experiment to test EM radition, its nothing to do with 'routers'. Believe it or not, there are things which are 'routers' that are not supplied by your ISP when you sign up for home broadband.

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
  7. well done kids! by thephydes · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is exactly what we should be encouraging kids to do. Regardless of lack of control or other "missing" experimental methods, this is a significant scientific result for a bunch of 9th graders. Good on them and good on their teacher for encouraging them to do the experiment and having the balls to publish it.

    1. Re:well done kids! by thephydes · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You are obviously not a teacher although you may well be a scientist. Teachers either tell the kids what to do or encourage them to explore and THEN discuss results/flaws/improvements. After 33 years as an educator I can assure you that the latter is the most effective method and is a better preparation for pre-tertiary science. In addition I'll bet that the first "scientists" did not think about controls, they just collected evidence. This experiment is just that, a collection of evidence.

  8. Re:Bit misleading by WillgasM · · Score: 4, Funny

    Yea, because we were obviously going to blame IP for the result.

  9. Doubtful on the outgassing... by denzacar · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...as it grows fine on keyboards.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cress_keyboard-3_sprouting_other_side.jpg

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
  10. Re:Bit misleading by clarkn0va · · Score: 4, Funny

    Not until we can rule out NAT acceleration.

    --
    I am literally 3000 tokens away from the chaotic crossbow --Stephen
  11. Re:Bit misleading by SuricouRaven · · Score: 4, Funny

    This is what happens when carrier-level NAT is deployed. Even the plants would rather die than live with NAT.

  12. A comment from a native dane by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    They're using 2.4GHz wifi routers. 3G and LTE was not chosen because of data cost.
    The rooms are all locked, so only the teacher and the 5 pupils have access.
    They've done the tests twice with the same results.
    They've controlled temperature, water amount, sun radiation from windows and more factors, to control bias.

    The danish newspaper Ingeniøren (The Engineer) has the teacher Kim Horsevad explain in detail in the comments on their article on the subject: http://ing.dk/artikel/folkeskoleelever-vaekker-forsker-opsigt-mobilstraaling-forhindrer-karse-i-spire-158867#comment-529110

    His comment is REALLY long, so some other dane will have to translate if Google Translate doesn't cut it ;)