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Ex-Marine Detained Under Operation Vigilant Eagle For His Political Views Sues
stry_cat writes "You may remember the story of Brandon Raub, who was detained without due process over some Facebook posts he made. Now with the help of the Rutherford Institute, he is suing his captors. According to his complaint [PDF], his detention was part of a federal government program code-named 'Operation Vigilant Eagle,' which monitors military veterans with certain political views."
When will those idiots running things realise disagreeing with your views doesn't make you an enemy?
The governments are doing more to destroy peace & safety of it's people than the terrorists ever did.
This would be the same type of ultra-far right nutjob (Seriously, "The Illuminati caused 9/11?" Get bent.) that called for the mass incarceration / murder of anyone of middle eastern decent or membership of the second most popular religion in the world, right?
Ah, Irony. :)
On the one hand, such an operation can be justified in that persons with military training and radical political views make for a volatile and dangerous group: heightened aggression coupled with access to weapons and knowledge of weapon use, explosives, and demolition can lead to nasty results.
On the other hand, there are very few excuses the denying due process, and proactive observation is certainly not one of them.
Hyperbole: I use it liberally!
So, the erosion of rights and the police nanny state will continue as it has been.
Please all-powerful government, do everything you can. Ass-rape me, incarcerate my neighbors, whatever it takes. Just protect me from the Indian, the commie, immigrant Latino, drug dealer, the brown guy that prays five times a day, the guy with shampoo at the airport, the four year old girl scared of the scanners, the crazy veteran, sharks, and lightning strikes.
By all means do not protect me from the transfer of wealth and jobs and power to fewer and fewer. I do not care of this country becomes a shell of rich elite surrounding a poor, ignorant populace. As long as I have TMZ and the lottery and reality TV, I will be a-ok.
Silence is a state of mime.
It is about the erosion of rights and the use of technology to increasingly monitor people. Including you. Very much of interest to many people here. If you are not interested, do not read it.
Silence is a state of mime.
When will those idiots running things realise disagreeing with your views doesn't make you an enemy?
The governments are doing more to destroy peace & safety of it's people than the terrorists ever did.
"Disagree" can cover quite a range; you make it sound like the "disagreement" is minor.
This situation sounds more complicated than "a minor disagreement."
If these Raub quotes are accurate (below), what would you do? People act surprised (and upset that "nobody did anything!") when shooters turn up in movie theaters or schools, or when bombers crash your marathon.
So on the one hand it looks like it was worth investigating. On the other hand, it sounds like the authorities involved here will have some motivation to be better about following due process once the lawyers are done.
All in all it sounds like the checks & balances are working as planned in this situation.
Excerpts from http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/81243/
On Facebook, Raub talked about the Illuminati, a shadow organization in which "some of the leaders were involved with the bombing of the twin towers" and the "great amount of evil perpetrated by the American Government."
He said people may think he was going crazy, but a "civil war," the "Revolution" is coming.
"I'm starting the Revolution. I'm done waiting."
On July 24, he said he was at a "great crossroads. As if a storm of destiny is about to pick me up and take me to fight a great battle."
On August 9 he talked about severing heads and told the generals he was coming for them.
On August 13, he wrote, "Sharpen up my axe; I'm here to sever heads."
On August 14, Raub wrote, "The Revolution will come for me. Men will be at my door soon to pick me up to lead it."
On August 15, Raub wrote, "And they will say he said it to the NSA first."
I my town there is a guy who pushes a cart full of cans down the street who's rantings are pretty hostile. I can't imagine how long the list of people he has threatened would be but it might very well include everybody. I wouldn't hire him to babysit but his total kill count seems to hover around 0.
So if they want to arrest people for having mad ramblings they could start with anyone possessing almost any religious text.
Except I'm fairly certain this guy is actually legitimately mentally ill, and some of his statements were quite worrisome -- my personal suspicion is that someone he knew spoke up to get him picked up so he could get helped. And he did talk about chopping off heads. I don't think they were actual threats, but they were the sort of thing that had I known the guy I'd be worried for HIS safety.
... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about.
I recall when this story first hit.
The guy's postings paint him as legitimately mentally ill. He was picked up not because he was a threat to others but because he was a threat to himself.
Now, maybe that was all unjustified worry -- but if I knew someone who actually wholly believed in Illuminati conspiracy bullshit, and if they started talking about starting the revolution, sharpening their axe and coming for heads? I'd be fucking worried they were going to do something, yes!
This isn't a your-rights-online issue, this is a mental health issue. I for one think it's a good idea if the government makes an effort to keep tabs on the mental health of veterans.
... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about.
If you read the linked article, it sounds like he was detained for making threats towards people in the federal government. Given his training, these threats have to be taken seriously.
That is besides the point. The Boston Marathon bombers didn't have his training and were quite successful at causing great harm. Are you advocating that the government should be monitoring everybody's FB posts, email, postal mail, etc. looking for potential crack pots?
In the US, people do have the right to privacy and the right to due process. The man in question was not a marine, but an ex-marine. Does that mean all ex-military have forfeited those rights? What about all government employees? Where do you draw the line?
Post 9/11 people have willingly given up basic rights that the country was founded on that people fought and died to protect, all out of fear and others have capitalized on it. The Soviet Union had the KGB to "protect" it's citizens. Nazi Germany had the Gestapo to "protect" their citizens. And the US has homeland security. Of course, what are they protecting their citizens against? That's simple, anybody who thinks differently than the government leaders want the populace to think.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not some right wing conspiracy theorist. I'm pretty much as liberal as they come. But, it is a common tactic of totalitarian governments to use fear to get people to give up their rights. Hell, even in Florida, they just started their own brownshirt program where citizens are encouraged to report suspected terrorist activity to a special law inforcement group (as if somehow, they couldn't do that before).
On this Memorial Day weekend, as we honor the dead, I'll be thinking of my family members who have fought for our freedom in every war in the US has been involved with including the Revolutionary War. I will thank them for their sacrifice and feel sorrow for what naught it has become.
This is true to some extent for any taxpayer funded job. If you are a teacher you can be let go for your facebook page. If you are a politician you can be forced to resign for your tweets. Taxpayer funded jobs are not like private jobs. They come with strings.
In this light let look at this case. This guy is a retired Marine, which means that he volunteered to serve his country, follow the chain of command, and accepted a pay check to do so. He is 26-27 so he is probably still on active duty. He is quoted as saying "I'm starting the Revolution. I'm done waiting." I don't know about you, but when a person trained in war says that they are going to start a revolution, that would make a little worried.
Note that such a thing is the basis for treason..."Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."
My understanding he is being treated with kid gloves. He was held in a mental facility, instead of being charged with treason. If he is suffering from PSTD this is a good thing. Many vets do not get the help they need, and listening for these cries for help is something that the government should be doing.
In the end Facebook, despite what we want to believe, is a public venue and we should not be plotting revolutions using it. Everyone knows Twitter is where all the cool revolutionaries go. The government has some responsibility to monitor public communications to keep the country safe. This is one of the few enumerated roles of government, and is why this kid did not have to go out and find a real job. In this case, he many only be crazy as opposed to someone who would go into Time Square a shoot a dozen people. In either case, be it prevention or help, I don't see how this is a bad thing. If nothing else it is an example to kids that the military is not just playing soldier, it has some lifelong responsibilities.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
How about ranting about the Illuminati, and stating you're about to begin the revolution, and stating that you're sharpening your axe and coming for heads?
And yes, believing in the Illuminati is a far cry from believing Fox News is news. A very far cry. I'll give you a hint: Fox News actually exists.
Ever been around the mentally ill? Not just "oh i take antidepressants", but "I have been involuntarily committed to a mental health facility" mentally ill people. Somehow I don't think you have, if you're conflating mental illness with just plain being dumb.
Keep your partisan politics out of this bullshit, this is not a political issue.
... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about.
IMHO, the biggest problem with democracy here in the US is the mistaken belief you have two choices.
While the solution would take 2-3 election cycles, two duopoly can be easily changed by encouraging people to vote for the party that actually represents their views. Sure they won't win, but consider what happened when Nader got a ton of votes back during the Bush / Gore election - either the big parties will change their approach (as happened then) or the US will evolve to a multy party system.
The challenge is convincing a society bent in instant gratification that this doesn't 'waste' your vote - rather it is a strategic long term investment.
"Omnis tuus capsa sunt inesse nos"
I'm posting the same basic reply over and over for this story, but only because people are using the same defense over and over and being moderated up for it.
Take a look at Ted Nugent. Pubically claimed he would be "either dead or in prison" if Obama was reelected. That is threat both of suicide and a threat of presidential assassination. Reaction: he was allowed to attend a state of the union address.
Take a look at Palin. Completely detached from reality, seriously delusional, tells followers "don't retreat, reload." What's a more credible threat/incitement: a public comment telling the favorite party of gun nuts to "reload" or a private FB wall post from a non-public figure quoting a song lyric about severing heads with an axe?
It's not about celebrity, either. Spend ten minutes reading typical Tea Party rantings and you will find similar vaguely threatening violent comments. The difference is, those are rightwing, pro-"real" America, jingoistic nutjobs. Whereas the content of this guy's posts make him sound like a leftwing nutjob.
I don't have a problem with treating this guy as a credible threat, but only if they do the same for at least a few hundred thousand of the worst, most violent-sounding Tea Partiers.
Nader is not a good example at all, as it's likely that had he not siphoned votes away from Gore, bush the lesser would never have been president, butterfly ballots and hanging chads notwithstanding.
And while my own politics may be somewhat closer to Nader (Though even Nader leaves a sour taste in my mouth on some issues.), Gore would sure as hell have been a damn sight better than the eight years of bush/cheney that we got out of that incident.
A better idea, I think, than shooting yourself in the foot and harming the country overall out of principle, as happenes in 2000; is a fundamental change in the structure of the government to eliminate the winner-take-all aspect of politics. Switching to something like a Westminster-style parliamentary system would be better, IMO. Such systems often require coalition governments to be formed and are better at forcing compromise and including the viewpoints of minority viewpoints that are completely marginalized in our current system in the US.
Imagine all the people...
This is not the thought police.
Let's go Occam on this shit.
This guy over a period of time becomes more and more unhinged with his facebook postings, more erratic with his language and more fringe with his beliefs. You knew him, and what he is saying now is quite different than how you remember him. That's worrisome, watching somebody slide into derangement. Then he starts posting things about heading out to start a revolution, and sharpening his axe, and... well, yeah maybe he's just posting things.
That's the problem, though. When someone becomes erratic like that, it's hard to tell how far off the deep end they may have gone.
Most likely a friend or family member alerted authorities, not to protect any generals or presidents but rather to protect this guy from harming himself, because they believed that he had become delusional and fundamentally disconnected from reality. That shit really happens, and it's really painful to see, and if you know anyone like that do try and get help for them because they will need it.
I've had a friend involuntarily committed several times. Going off meds is a bad thing. The things I've been told while visiting... it really is painful, I don't have another word for it. Here's someone you care about and they're just crazy. The radio is playing songs specifically for them, the meanings speak about them and their situation. Things in their personal life are happening (except they actually aren't). Convinced of things that haven't happened, that aren't true, but they have a memory of it and know it's true and you know it's not and they can't believe you, and hell, you're afraid to speak out and correct them because while they're receiving care (against their will, yes) they're convinced that the doctors are actually experimenting on them and it's all part of a conspiracy to keep them quiet, to keep them down, to dull their mind -- and if you try and disagree with them, you're suddenly all a part of that mess and if you just stay quiet and let the doctors help them at least you can still visit and make them smile so they have a bright part of their day while they're recovering.
This was NOT because of his political views, this was and is only about Raud's mental illness (or lack thereof, although I very seriously doubt that he is not mentally ill).
... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about.
Damn, you make some fine and excellent points. A friend of mine pointed out that the "sharpen my axe" and "i'm here to sever heads" quotes are from the lyrics of a song by the Vancouver Hip Hop Band Swollen Members called "Don't Bring me Down". And I was defending the quoting of lyrics.
But you are absolutely right that people in the midst of a psychotic break or in the midst of paranoid delusions do in fact believe that everything in the world references them directly: that the songs on the radio are not just about them but are directly speaking to them.
So I retract my previous statements. We are of course free to express ourselves, but some outrageous statements may require assessment? Or should the boundary really be at outrageous action? Outrageous statements ought to be allowed and actions that cross the line ought not. But the trick is where does the outrageous statement cross the line?
Allowing detention for statements alone is getting very fascist. Even allowing psychiatric detention or forced psych evaluation for statements alone is not fair: the soviets used to lock up dissenters in psychiatric wards, didn't they?
It's a tough call.