Ex-Marine Detained Under Operation Vigilant Eagle For His Political Views Sues

stry_cat writes "You may remember the story of Brandon Raub, who was detained without due process over some Facebook posts he made. Now with the help of the Rutherford Institute, he is suing his captors. According to his complaint [PDF], his detention was part of a federal government program code-named 'Operation Vigilant Eagle,' which monitors military veterans with certain political views."

Comments

I should hope so

[Anonymous Coward]

When will those idiots running things realise disagreeing with your views doesn't make you an enemy?

The governments are doing more to destroy peace & safety of it's people than the terrorists ever did.

Re:I should hope so

[Anonymous Coward]

The governments are doing more to destroy peace & safety of it's people than the terrorists ever did.

Governments are doing this with ease, because apathy allows it to happen. We are destroying ourselves, and as long as joe six-pack can get his beer and pills, he's happy and content with drones flying over his head, and will be too drunk or high to notice his Rights are gone one day. Not weakened. GONE.

Of course, the average mouth-breather won't notice this until they're staring into the mugshot camera, soon to join the masses of the Incarcerated States of America.

Control. That is the end game. By whatever means necessary. That should be painfully obvious in this day and age when the word patriot is synonymous with terrorist.

Re: I should hope so

[Anonymous Coward]

.. and what actions do you suggest? Neither ballots nor bullets are an effective means of change from an individual.
Words are more powerful than you give them credit, to change hearts and minds.

Re: I should hope so

[kwbauer]

Not the AC but... every time a politician starts talking about restricting guns or access to guns and ammo, I buy more. I contribute to organizations that fight politicians trying to do that. What does that get me? Around here, generally scorn because that isn't a freedom most around here seem to support. We should only support the other freedoms. You know, the freedom not to have to make choices because the government should give us everything we want.

Well, when you expect the government to be responsible for clothing you, feeding you, housing you, doctoring you, etc. why shouldn't you then expect the government to also take care of thinking for you as well?

Re: I should hope so

[Grishnakh]

That would be nice, but we wouldn't hear the end of it from the southern states.

What are you talking about? They've been itching to break away for over 150 years. They'd be happy to be allowed to go out on their own finally. Yes, they do absorb the most Federal money, but that's irrelevant: go ask all the Southern pride folks if they want to secede or not, and they'll tell you "yes". They think they'll do just fine without a Federal government (or at least, with only a Federal government that encompasses the Southern states and is independent from the north and west).

and would quickly erupt into anarchy once the shit hit the fan. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they killed themselves in the span of a month.

That may be, but again, the Southerners don't see it that way. And if they do self-destruct, how's that our problem? The conservatives (who are strong in the South) are constantly talking about "letting the free market work"; well, let's give them their freedom and leave them to their own devices. They're all adults; it's their own responsibility to take care of themselves. If they can do better on their own, great. If not, oh well. Either way, the rest of us would be better off without their representatives being part of our government.

And it's not just that I think the South should be kicked out, it's the whole union: the northwest, the midwest, the southwest, the southeast should all be separate countries. They'd probably all (or at least most of them) do better without having to be part of a single union where none of them can agree on anything, and the federal government of which has entirely too much power and no longer represents the will of the people (for example: marijuana laws), and thrives on the endless infighting between the different regional interests.

Misinformation

[supersat]

If you read the linked article, it sounds like he was detained for making threats towards people in the federal government. Given his training, these threats have to be taken seriously.

Re:Misinformation

[Dcnjoe60]

If you read the linked article, it sounds like he was detained for making threats towards people in the federal government. Given his training, these threats have to be taken seriously.

That is besides the point. The Boston Marathon bombers didn't have his training and were quite successful at causing great harm. Are you advocating that the government should be monitoring everybody's FB posts, email, postal mail, etc. looking for potential crack pots?

In the US, people do have the right to privacy and the right to due process. The man in question was not a marine, but an ex-marine. Does that mean all ex-military have forfeited those rights? What about all government employees? Where do you draw the line?

Post 9/11 people have willingly given up basic rights that the country was founded on that people fought and died to protect, all out of fear and others have capitalized on it. The Soviet Union had the KGB to "protect" it's citizens. Nazi Germany had the Gestapo to "protect" their citizens. And the US has homeland security. Of course, what are they protecting their citizens against? That's simple, anybody who thinks differently than the government leaders want the populace to think.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not some right wing conspiracy theorist. I'm pretty much as liberal as they come. But, it is a common tactic of totalitarian governments to use fear to get people to give up their rights. Hell, even in Florida, they just started their own brownshirt program where citizens are encouraged to report suspected terrorist activity to a special law inforcement group (as if somehow, they couldn't do that before).

On this Memorial Day weekend, as we honor the dead, I'll be thinking of my family members who have fought for our freedom in every war in the US has been involved with including the Revolutionary War. I will thank them for their sacrifice and feel sorrow for what naught it has become.

Two sides to a coin

[ThunderBird89]

On the one hand, such an operation can be justified in that persons with military training and radical political views make for a volatile and dangerous group: heightened aggression coupled with access to weapons and knowledge of weapon use, explosives, and demolition can lead to nasty results.

On the other hand, there are very few excuses the denying due process, and proactive observation is certainly not one of them.

Re:Two sides to a coin

[ToadProphet]

He committed no violence. And as a veteran, I'm sure he had a belly full of violence in his life and is more than likely sick of it. I'm inclined to believe that a veteran - especially one that has saw combat - would be much less inclined towards violence than the general population.

Statistics disagree

While overall the armed forces are less likely than civilians to offend, they are three times more likely to be convicted of violent offences; 20% of younger males (under 30) have been convicted of violence compared with 6.7% of civilians. Those who served in combat in Iraq or Afghanistan were 53% more likely to offend violently than those not on the frontline. Those with multiple experiences of combat had a 70%-80% greater risk of being convicted for acts of violence.

That doesn't mean that I agree with 'profiling' veterans, just that your assumption may be off.

Re:Two sides to a coin

[Kreigaffe]

Sooo... look, I'm fairly certain this guy's mentally ill. I don't know what you would call someone who fully believes in Illuminati conspiracy theory and makes statements intimating that they're going to walk out the door to start the revolution and then follows it up with, yes song quotes but song quotes about lopping off heads and sharpening axes? And what do you think is more likely -- someone who he's friends with on Facebook reading his posts and getting help for him, or some super-secretive government conspiracy targeting people with 'certain views' (which to Raud mean THE TRUTH! and to sane people would mean.. nothing, because Raub's views are the shit you can listen to on NPR after midnight).

It's a mental health issue, man. I for one think it's a good thing if the mental health of our vets is taken care of.

Re:Two sides to a coin

[Kreigaffe]

Spoken like someone who's never encountered a seriously mentally ill person.
It's not a jail term, it's holding someone against their will, yes -- with the goal to provide them the help they require to function in society without their illness causing undue negative effect to themselves. Or do you think it's better that we just let somebody who believes the CIA is sending mind-control beams into their teeth out on the street? Is THAT the better thing to do? Allow them to wallow in their illness?

You're aware that the homeless are often mentally ill? That the closing of state facilities pushed those people onto the street where they are unable to care for themselves? Is that better for them? Maybe it's better for you, maybe you prefer to just pretend you don't see them on the street, maybe you prefer not knowing that they're homeless not because they're lazy but because they're *crazy*. Personally I'd rather those people receive help, for their own well-being.

But yeah, hey, throw 'em out, who gives a shit right? What's one more missing person case, one more homeless person talking to voices? That's gotta be the right solution!

get real

[onyxruby]

Misleading headline is misleading, he was check into the mental health ward for an evaluation after acting like a nut. The fact that he has views that are generally only held by nutcases didn't help his case.

Guy is one of those conspiracy theory whack jobs that thinks societies refusal to consider his conspiracy theories makes him a political target. Sometimes when society thinks your ideas are crazy you just might be crazy.

Re:get real

[EmperorOfCanada]

I my town there is a guy who pushes a cart full of cans down the street who's rantings are pretty hostile. I can't imagine how long the list of people he has threatened would be but it might very well include everybody. I wouldn't hire him to babysit but his total kill count seems to hover around 0.

So if they want to arrest people for having mad ramblings they could start with anyone possessing almost any religious text.

Re:get real

[Kreigaffe]

I recall when this story first hit.

The guy's postings paint him as legitimately mentally ill. He was picked up not because he was a threat to others but because he was a threat to himself.
Now, maybe that was all unjustified worry -- but if I knew someone who actually wholly believed in Illuminati conspiracy bullshit, and if they started talking about starting the revolution, sharpening their axe and coming for heads? I'd be fucking worried they were going to do something, yes!

This isn't a your-rights-online issue, this is a mental health issue. I for one think it's a good idea if the government makes an effort to keep tabs on the mental health of veterans.

Typical

[wbr1]

The shame of it is, that Raub may get money from his suit. Then the whole case will quietly disappear, the media won't give it time, why because they have no qualms against a government that lets them buy laws and pursue false copyright claims. It is decidedly not in the medias interest to be overly critical of the government to the point that the populace becomes concerned.

So, the erosion of rights and the police nanny state will continue as it has been.

Please all-powerful government, do everything you can. Ass-rape me, incarcerate my neighbors, whatever it takes. Just protect me from the Indian, the commie, immigrant Latino, drug dealer, the brown guy that prays five times a day, the guy with shampoo at the airport, the four year old girl scared of the scanners, the crazy veteran, sharks, and lightning strikes.
By all means do not protect me from the transfer of wealth and jobs and power to fewer and fewer. I do not care of this country becomes a shell of rich elite surrounding a poor, ignorant populace. As long as I have TMZ and the lottery and reality TV, I will be a-ok.

Re:Facebook has become a part of life

[wbr1]

It is about the erosion of rights and the use of technology to increasingly monitor people. Including you. Very much of interest to many people here. If you are not interested, do not read it.

not so simple... Re:I should hope so

[Fubari]

When will those idiots running things realise disagreeing with your views doesn't make you an enemy?

The governments are doing more to destroy peace & safety of it's people than the terrorists ever did.

"Disagree" can cover quite a range; you make it sound like the "disagreement" is minor.
This situation sounds more complicated than "a minor disagreement."
If these Raub quotes are accurate (below), what would you do? People act surprised (and upset that "nobody did anything!") when shooters turn up in movie theaters or schools, or when bombers crash your marathon.
So on the one hand it looks like it was worth investigating. On the other hand, it sounds like the authorities involved here will have some motivation to be better about following due process once the lawyers are done.
All in all it sounds like the checks & balances are working as planned in this situation.

Excerpts from http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/81243/

On Facebook, Raub talked about the Illuminati, a shadow organization in which "some of the leaders were involved with the bombing of the twin towers" and the "great amount of evil perpetrated by the American Government."
He said people may think he was going crazy, but a "civil war," the "Revolution" is coming.
"I'm starting the Revolution. I'm done waiting."
On July 24, he said he was at a "great crossroads. As if a storm of destiny is about to pick me up and take me to fight a great battle."
On August 9 he talked about severing heads and told the generals he was coming for them.
On August 13, he wrote, "Sharpen up my axe; I'm here to sever heads."
On August 14, Raub wrote, "The Revolution will come for me. Men will be at my door soon to pick me up to lead it."
On August 15, Raub wrote, "And they will say he said it to the NSA first."

Re:not so simple... Re:I should hope so

[houghi]

All good and well. Perhaps he is guilty, perhaps not. Isn't that what "due process" is for? To figure that out?
He apparently was denied this due process and that is what is is suing for.

As long as it was not determined by due process, whatever he is saying is "a minor disagreement.". You know, like in "innocent until proven guilty".

Re:not so simple... Re:I should hope so

[Kreigaffe]

Yeah, this isn't a rights issue, it's a mental health issue.. and frankly I can only hope that people who don't see that simply haven't looked into the details at all, because the other option is that they think Illuminati conspiracy shit is plausible.

Re:not so simple... Re:I should hope so

[GryMor]

This is where the "Do something" crowd falls down a pit of bias. We've seen similar rhetoric from politicians and tv 'personalities'. As rhetoric it's protected speech, as straight statements of non metaphorical intent, it's an imminent threat. The metaphoric rhetoric almost certainly far out masses the straight statements of non metaphorical intent, so just seeing the above is not a proper signal of a threat, though if sufficient resources exist, it may warrant some spot checks to see if there are other signals, on it's own, it shouldn't be sufficient to detain anyone. If, on it's own, that is sufficient to detain someone, then large swaths of society are arbitrarily detainable; not necessarily for those specific views, but for rhetoric of that style. At that point, certain Jefferson quotes may in fact, need to come into play. I hope that point is not imminent, that the trial turns up proper non rhetorical, non protected, signals that fully justify the detention and aren't nigh universally and arbitrarily applicable to most citizens.

Re:not so simple... Re:I should hope so

[Kreigaffe]

No, people who are mentally unstable, if they are believed to be a threat to themselves or others (whether that's an outright-threat, or simply a threat to themselves because they are unable to make safe decisions (for example, a mentally ill person deciding to sleep inside of a retail store, or walking down a limited-access highway at night for fun (where pedestrians are not allowed))) they can be taken to a mental health facility for an evaluation, if they're sane but stupid.. that's one thing. if they are mentally ill, they can be provided treatment.

Really. It's a good thing. If you've ever known anyone who is seriously mentally ill, who has been involuntarily committed, you'd understand that though yes they will protest the treatment, it IS the right thing to do. There's nothing quite so heart-wrenching as talking to someone you care about and seeing That Look in their eyes. They do need help.

Social Contract

[fermion]

So here is my problem. When kids join the military, they think that it is all free. That they get the free money, free training, free room and board, a pension, healthcare, all at taxpayer expense, for free. You don't. When in the military you boss is the POTUS, and you don't get to argue. You agreed with that when you accepted the above minimum wage paycheck for training. Also, according to what I read, you accept to be inactive duty for a number of years. I would also add that if you go around saying you are a decorated veteran, there is some responsibility to not act like a fool and disgrace that work.

This is true to some extent for any taxpayer funded job. If you are a teacher you can be let go for your facebook page. If you are a politician you can be forced to resign for your tweets. Taxpayer funded jobs are not like private jobs. They come with strings.

In this light let look at this case. This guy is a retired Marine, which means that he volunteered to serve his country, follow the chain of command, and accepted a pay check to do so. He is 26-27 so he is probably still on active duty. He is quoted as saying "I'm starting the Revolution. I'm done waiting." I don't know about you, but when a person trained in war says that they are going to start a revolution, that would make a little worried.

Note that such a thing is the basis for treason..."Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

My understanding he is being treated with kid gloves. He was held in a mental facility, instead of being charged with treason. If he is suffering from PSTD this is a good thing. Many vets do not get the help they need, and listening for these cries for help is something that the government should be doing.

In the end Facebook, despite what we want to believe, is a public venue and we should not be plotting revolutions using it. Everyone knows Twitter is where all the cool revolutionaries go. The government has some responsibility to monitor public communications to keep the country safe. This is one of the few enumerated roles of government, and is why this kid did not have to go out and find a real job. In this case, he many only be crazy as opposed to someone who would go into Time Square a shoot a dozen people. In either case, be it prevention or help, I don't see how this is a bad thing. If nothing else it is an example to kids that the military is not just playing soldier, it has some lifelong responsibilities.

Re:Social Contract

[danlip]

Note that such a thing is the basis for treason..."Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

Except he didn't actually levy war on anyone, nor collaborate in any way with our enemies. All he did was trash talk. So there is no way this would be considered treason in the US. The US Constitution defines treason very narrowly, and for a damn good reason, because it was and is used to stifle freedom of speech in other countries.

Re:Civil involuntary detention

[Kreigaffe]

How about ranting about the Illuminati, and stating you're about to begin the revolution, and stating that you're sharpening your axe and coming for heads?

And yes, believing in the Illuminati is a far cry from believing Fox News is news. A very far cry. I'll give you a hint: Fox News actually exists.

Ever been around the mentally ill? Not just "oh i take antidepressants", but "I have been involuntarily committed to a mental health facility" mentally ill people. Somehow I don't think you have, if you're conflating mental illness with just plain being dumb.

Keep your partisan politics out of this bullshit, this is not a political issue.

But there are more than two choices in the US... J

[bingbong]

IMHO, the biggest problem with democracy here in the US is the mistaken belief you have two choices.

While the solution would take 2-3 election cycles, two duopoly can be easily changed by encouraging people to vote for the party that actually represents their views. Sure they won't win, but consider what happened when Nader got a ton of votes back during the Bush / Gore election - either the big parties will change their approach (as happened then) or the US will evolve to a multy party system.

The challenge is convincing a society bent in instant gratification that this doesn't 'waste' your vote - rather it is a strategic long term investment.

Re:Civil involuntary detention

[Kreigaffe]

This is not the thought police.

Let's go Occam on this shit.

This guy over a period of time becomes more and more unhinged with his facebook postings, more erratic with his language and more fringe with his beliefs. You knew him, and what he is saying now is quite different than how you remember him. That's worrisome, watching somebody slide into derangement. Then he starts posting things about heading out to start a revolution, and sharpening his axe, and... well, yeah maybe he's just posting things.
That's the problem, though. When someone becomes erratic like that, it's hard to tell how far off the deep end they may have gone.

Most likely a friend or family member alerted authorities, not to protect any generals or presidents but rather to protect this guy from harming himself, because they believed that he had become delusional and fundamentally disconnected from reality. That shit really happens, and it's really painful to see, and if you know anyone like that do try and get help for them because they will need it.

I've had a friend involuntarily committed several times. Going off meds is a bad thing. The things I've been told while visiting... it really is painful, I don't have another word for it. Here's someone you care about and they're just crazy. The radio is playing songs specifically for them, the meanings speak about them and their situation. Things in their personal life are happening (except they actually aren't). Convinced of things that haven't happened, that aren't true, but they have a memory of it and know it's true and you know it's not and they can't believe you, and hell, you're afraid to speak out and correct them because while they're receiving care (against their will, yes) they're convinced that the doctors are actually experimenting on them and it's all part of a conspiracy to keep them quiet, to keep them down, to dull their mind -- and if you try and disagree with them, you're suddenly all a part of that mess and if you just stay quiet and let the doctors help them at least you can still visit and make them smile so they have a bright part of their day while they're recovering.

This was NOT because of his political views, this was and is only about Raud's mental illness (or lack thereof, although I very seriously doubt that he is not mentally ill).