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What Can You Find Out From Metadata?
cervesaebraciator writes "In the wake of recent revelations from Edward Snowden, apologists for the state security apparatus are predictably hitting the airwaves. Some are even 'glad' the NSA has been doing this. A major point they emphasize is that the content of calls have remained private and it is only the metadata that they're interested in. But given how much one can tell from interpersonal connections, does the surveillance only represent a 'modest encroachments on privacy?' It is easy enough to imagine how metadata on phone calls made to and from a medical specialist could be more revealing than we'd like. But social network analysis can reveal far more. Duke sociologist Kieran Healy, in a light-hearted but telling article, shows how one father of the American Revolution could have been identified using the simplest tools of social network analysis and only a limited dataset."
Don't like it? Move to China.
That's a great comeback -- don't like something about your country? Well pack up, get out, and move someplace worse because america is perfect the way it is so you either need to accept that or get out - we don't need your changes!
I'm guessing that's simply a function of limited technology, i.e., "today" that's just too much data to store. But in keeping with technologies amazing storage capacity growth, it's only a matter of time before the content is also recorded and archived. It's just too tempting not to.
We could do all that, but we'd be right back where we started. The fundamental problem is the American people, who have time and time again said that they simply don't care. The government listening to our calls? We don't care. Reading our emails? We don't care. Hiding disturbing truths about our perpetual wars? We couldn't care less.
Blame government officials all you want, but remember this: as a democracy we get the government we deserve.
There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
The government has long wanted better, meaning highly reliable means of conducting traffic analysis... who knows who, who talks to whom, etc. You can use this data for good or bad.. you can use it to break past the limits in typical "cells"... you can find the path/person who links from one cell to another..
My own take is there is a enough personal data and information in meta data that use of it deprives us of our rights to be secure in our home and in our papers.. our communications with others, Etc.
Back in the days of the Clipper chip, the chip had done into wide spread use it's use would have given the NSA, Etc nearly perfect traffic analysis since each chip would have it's own unique and cryptographically signed ID. Fast forward, everyone walking around with a cell phone has an unique ID, several in fact including their phone #, and that's the value of all the meta data.. it's often more important than what is being said, it is who is talking to whom...
Knowing everyone who talked to OBL in say 1995 or 1990 or 1985 would be helpful to find his network in 2001 or 2002, Etc. It can be helpful when tracking bad guys, but it can be used to track anyone for any reason and find their entire network of friends and family.
http://www.hawknest.com/
Don't like it? Move to China.
That's a great comeback -- don't like something about your country? Well pack up, get out, and move someplace worse because america is perfect the way it is so you either need to accept that or get out - we don't need your changes!
Hence the reason I typically refer to such offal as "The Idiot's Adage"
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
I'll know it is modest if the general public can get a dump of the meta data for every elected office holder as well as their staff members, and all judges.
Fine then. Will that also be the standard for:
- All future search warrants (Your honor, its only fair to give the suspect your data too.)
- A prerequisite for submitting tax forms ( Give me your data tax examiner and I'll give you mine?)
- Answering census forms (So, census taker, do you have your data along with the Commissioners?)
- Permit requests (If you want me to open this business here, where is the data for the town council?)
Every elected office holder? And staff? And all judges?
Oh yeah, that is well grounded. I suggest you get a grip.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Oh yes, that makes me feel MUCH better. It concerns me that in the event I ever dialed a wrong number that I could end up on a terrorist watch list somewhere.
Of course, no human actually does this for regular citizens, and no human looks at it — unless you are being investigated, which the government don't need probable cause to do (according to their interpretation of Section 215 of the PATRIOT act.) Then it really is as if someone had followed you and recorded all of this information.
I doubt you need to be under active investigation to come under scrutiny by an analyst, all you need to do is have similar call patterns as a suspected terrorist and come up in an automated data mining search "Hey, terrorist XYZ made calls to a bunch of Home Depots, Radio Shacks, and truck rental places before he built his bomb. And look, Joe Public called nearly the same set of places. Let's take a look at his email to see what he's been up to". I bet they'd be able to subpoena your email with a single click from the analyst's search app if Amazon hadn't gotten that one-click-shopping patent.
maybe, you don't consider it so bad to have a government computer find out who my friends
are, what I bought, and where I traveled.
whats happening already though is your aggregate information is being used to profile you based
on whether or not you cluster with normal acceptable people. what happens if you get labelled
an outlier by some heuristics the govenment used..well, of course you get increased surveillance.
ok. but what happens when that profile, much like a credit check is already being used today,
restricts your ability to fly on an airplane, or get a government or other job. or travel outside
the country. what happens if you get stopped by the police for a headlight being out, and because you have a yellow star
in your file they decide to detain you for enhanced questioning techniques.
you're just a tiny hair away from having the government make a value judgement totally opaque to you about
your entire life, without you having broken any laws. deciding whether you are probably a good guy or
possibly a bad guy.
you still think thats ok
It may indeed seem a good thing to archive all this sort of meta-data in order to facilitate some sort of specific data-mining operation. Proper controls may indeed be in place so that appropriate warrants must be obtained to look through the data for any particular individual or group.
But all of this depends heavily on trust. Do you TRUST your government (and all future versions of such) to constrain themselves to appropriate usage of the data and indeed for the integrity of the data overall? If you cannot see yourself trusting your worst imaginable politically opposite cretin with such power, this really ought not to be something you'd support.
What in the world would prevent a government from altering the data as they see fit to crucify whoever they'd like? You'd need not have an ironclad case for conviction to destroy folk. Just sufficient "evidence" to link them with child-pornography, drug-lords, or whatever may be deemed reprehensible and let the media finish the tar-and-feather job.
Maybe the various service providers maintain their own copies of the data. Maybe not. But the "old" way of depending on CALEA to turn on a tap after a warrant seems far less susceptible to blatant abuse than a system where all the taps are supposedly taken ahead of time.
I'll know it is modest if the general public can get a dump of the meta data for every elected office holder as well as their staff members, and all judges.
There you go again, buying into the lie that it was JUST META DATA.
There isn't a single security professional that believes that. Even Obama knew he was lying thru his teeth when he said that.
But that shoe won't be allowed to drop now that they are on guard, at least not for another few months.
Its not JUST metadata.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
Don't like it? Move to China.
That's a great comeback -- don't like something about your country? Well pack up, get out, and move someplace worse because america is perfect the way it is so you either need to accept that or get out - we don't need your changes!
A couple of points here. First, Snowden ironically fled to Hong Kong, which is China. I think the GP was making a joke. Here's your whoosh!
When an AC says something that could be trolling or could be some wry insightful sarcasm, I always err on the side of Trolling
But in response to your post, there is some logic behind the "Love it or Leave it" argument. For example, there are many in America who want to make America like Europe, and work hard to transform it to that. It makes sense to ask these people, "Why don't you just move to Europe?" Here is why the logic works: If they were to move to Europe, they could line under a government that is exactly what they want. They'll be happy there. As a bonus, those of us who like things in America the way they are get to stay and live in under a government that is exactly what we want. It's a win-win! We all get what we want. On the other hand, when they stay and fight to transform America, they make themselves miserable living in a country they don't like and make the rest of us miserable fighting to keep them from changing America into a country we won't want.
Why try to change the place you live into someplace else when you could simply move to that someplace else?
Please forgive the off-topicness
I think you just answered that - because it's the place I live... my family, my friends, my home, my job, etc are all here in the USA so why would I want to pack up and leave? And if I really feel that what I'm advocating is an improvement, why wouldn't I want to share it with everyone?
I think you just answered that - because it's the place I live... my family, my friends, my home, my job, etc are all here in the USA so why would I want to pack up and leave? And if I really feel that what I'm advocating is an improvement, why wouldn't I want to share it with everyone?
Because we don't want your "improvement" and we don't have the option of moving as there is no place else in the world that has the economic opportunity and freedom that the US has.
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
C S Lewis
"Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
I think you just answered that - because it's the place I live... my family, my friends, my home, my job, etc are all here in the USA so why would I want to pack up and leave? And if I really feel that what I'm advocating is an improvement, why wouldn't I want to share it with everyone?
Because we don't want your "improvement" and we don't have the option of moving as there is no place else in the world that has the economic opportunity and freedom that the US has.
Hmm...isn't that what people said about racial segregation? We don't want "those" people on "our" bus or drinking from "our" fountains? Or about gay rights "If we let the gays marry, then everyone will want to marry their dogs and once heterosexual people see homosexual people in committed marriages, it will tear heterosexual marriages apart!".
I didn't even say what "improvement" I wanted, so how can you say that you don't want it? Don't you value my freedom of speech? You're trying to shut down my opinion before I even voiced it.
I think you just answered that - because it's the place I live... my family, my friends, my home, my job, etc are all here in the USA so why would I want to pack up and leave? And if I really feel that what I'm advocating is an improvement, why wouldn't I want to share it with everyone?
Because we don't want your "improvement" and we don't have the option of moving as there is no place else in the world that has the economic opportunity and freedom that the US has.
Hmm...isn't that what people said about racial segregation? We don't want "those" people on "our" bus or drinking from "our" fountains? Or about gay rights "If we let the gays marry, then everyone will want to marry their dogs and once heterosexual people see homosexual people in committed marriages, it will tear heterosexual marriages apart!".
I didn't even say what "improvement" I wanted, so how can you say that you don't want it? Don't you value my freedom of speech? You're trying to shut down my opinion before I even voiced it.
I'm not talking about civil rights. I'm a conservative libertarian. I'm talking about economic and personal freedom. Some of us just want to be left the hell alone while others demand that someone oversee what I do in my personal and financial life. It is how things used to be and the system worked quite well. For example, there are more people in poverty today than there was when Johnson declared a "War on Poverty". There are more people smoking marijuana today than there was before marijuana was made to be illegal. More people have a cocaine problem today than when cocaine was legal and could be purchased in a bottle of Coca Cola. the federal deficit was smaller before there was an income tax. The list goes on and on.
There are those of us who see that when government makes up a problem and declares war on it, that problem always gets worse. You would think that people would realize this and just stop it, but that hasn't happened. It has actually gotten worse. It seems that the more government fails, the more people demand that the government needs to grow to fix those problems. It's an endless cycle and the only end I see is absolute failure before we are allowed to restore what works.
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
But in response to your post, there is some logic behind the "Love it or Leave it" argument. For example, there are many in America who want to make America like Europe, and work hard to transform it to that. It makes sense to ask these people, "Why don't you just move to Europe?"
Here's why the logic doesn't work - those people are made of straw. You are working backwards with your argument - starting from the 'fact' that the changes they want resemble some of the policies in Europe to assuming they want to make the US into Europe. The goal is not to transform the US into Europe, the goal is to integrate what they consider to be the good parts of European policy and leave out the bad parts.
As the saying goes:
My country, right or wrong...
if right to be kept right,
if wrong to be set right.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
If the price to pay for security is selling my privacy, then I say security be damned!
Of course it would be USEFUL to have all citizens monitored. Whats even more useful would be having cameras in peoples homes, recording everything they said and did. How terribly useful that would be!
Obama is as bad as they come. He has had lots of chances now to make up for bush era fuckups. There are no more excuses for his behaviour that I will take.
As a potential lottery winner, I totally support tax cuts for the wealthy
you do realize the only reason why republicans wants states right so they can take away rights of those they deem to be less than human right?
Whites only, isn't racist Rush Limbaugh said so. Women shouldn't work they take away jobs from MEN. Women can stop a pregnancy by rape any time if they get pregnant during a rape they most really have wanted it anyways.
Those are actual arguments made by recent Republicans. Democrats aren't much better but are currently the lesser of two evils when it comes to personal freedoms. current wiretapping issues included.
The problem everyone seems to forget that without laws telling us what can not do we will do things like pollute our drinking water, swim in shit, and not think twice about throwing our garbage into our neighbors property.
Take a look at the sky in pictures from the 60's 70's and early 80's notice the pollution and how cloudy everything is? That is how bad things have to get before we do the right thing. Humans are Lazy and we will take every short cut we can get away with.
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
Could you cite this please? This political event is typically referred to as the Velvet Divorce and I'm surprised by claims of "thousands" of deaths.