Slashdot Mirror


Electric Vehicles Might Not Benefit the Environment After All

New submitter countach44 writes "From an article in IEEE's Spectrum magazine: 'Upon closer consideration, moving from petroleum-fueled vehicles to electric cars begins to look more and more like shifting from one brand of cigarettes to another. We wouldn't expect doctors to endorse such a thing. Should environmentally minded people really revere electric cars?' The author discusses the controversy and social issues behind electric car research and demonstrates what many of us have been thinking: are electric cars really more environmentally friendly than those based on internal combustion engines?" Reader Jah-Wren Ryel takes issue with one of the sources, and offers a criticism from Fast Company.

13 of 775 comments (clear)

  1. Depends on the energy source duh! by beernutmark · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Of course it depends on the energy source. I purchase wind powered offsets to power my focus electric. This changes the equation greatly.

    1. Re:Depends on the energy source duh! by lordholm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Perhaps, but this misses the point of EV or fuel cell vehicles. At present, it stands so that these will push power generation to coal or oil fired power plants in many areas.

      BUT:

      1. Power plants will be transitioned as well, and it is substantially easier to place efficient and centralised greenhouse reducing technologies in a couple of power plants than in 2 billion cars.
      2. Fuel will run out, and a transition must be starting now in any case.
      3. In some places, most electricity already comes from nuclear / hydro / wind / solar (e.g. France and Sweden).

      The transition away from petrol and diesel to battery or fuel cells, is not so much as cutting green house gasses now, it is about enabling a new infrastructure that is easier to control and manage. The being clean argument does however help to sell the electric vehicles now.

      --
      "Civis Europaeus sum!"
    2. Re:Depends on the energy source duh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It does have loss, too, from resistance, inductance, and capacitance of the conductors. Shifting the energy to/from electric/magnetic fields, a typical process for any electric device, also incurs loss.

      Loss from inductance and capacitance is imaginary loss. Any energy you lose to charging up the capacitor or building the magnetic field in the inductor, you gain back when the capacitor is discharged or the field in the inductor is released. The only real loss is resistance. Electrical lines can leak to ground though. It is a bit of a stretch, but I hope that is what you meant.

      The fact is, per mile driven, it's more efficient to store the carbon on site and burn as needed, than it is to burn it in a plant and transmit the resultant energy down electric power lines.

      That assumes the power plant and the car are of similar efficiency. They aren't. Power plants can use much more efficient external combustion engines and run at the optimal rpms. Under optimal conditions (for the car) the power plant is roughly twice as efficient as a car. Typical conditions favor the power plant even more (because it always runs at optimal). Given all of the losses in getting the power from the plant through the car and to the road, it is a wash for same fuel power. However, large scale power plants don't run on gasoline. If powered from petroleum, they run on natural gas which is a lot easier, cheaper and more efficient to produce.

      Energy generation is the real issue. The only zero greenhouse gas emission technology that can generate the scale of power needed is nuclear, and the earth firsters won't go for that. Things like wind and solar are ok as supplements but they cannot possibly meet the current growing energy needs, never mind such needs plus electric cars. The more exotic systems like ocean wave energy are experimental at best. We need a stepping stone if we want to move to all-electric. At the moment, that stepping stone is nuclear. Without it, electric cars are actually worse for the environment than the current situation.

      Nobody is suggesting that we switch to a single source energy. The great thing about the energy grid is that you can just keep tacking on more generators as they come online. As more green plants come online, every device powered from the grid is that much greener.

    3. Re:Depends on the energy source duh! by lordholm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, it uses the word will, but it takes time to prepare for the future. It is arguably so that, currently, EV does not really improve that much considering the average electricity plant in the world. But, we cannot ignore the future just because we live today. The fact is that we have to face the realities of today and the inevitabilities of the future.

      Granted, an individual cannot really plan for the future in the same way as a society can, which is why a person not switch his brand of cigarets because of long term benefits. However, assuming either your private or public health care system offered you discounts if you switched your cigaret brand (or extra taxes on the old brand), because society see that on the whole, they will save money this way, would the average smoker still not switch, even if he/she saved money here and now?

      As I mentioned, a society or a larger organisation have the ability to plan in long term in a way that you as an individual cannot do. Though the society can influence you to make the "right decision" in various ways. Meaning that, even something that may not make sense for an individual today from a utilitarian perspective, will make more sense from a financial perspective. In other words, society can plan for the "will happen" part and ensure that the current realities, at least in financial terms align with the future and the "will happen" part.

      In addition to this, the fact is that infrastructure take a lot of time to build. Therefore, in order to build the infrastructure for the future, we need to invest in it today, because rest assured, at current consumption, oil (and natural gas) WILL run out (in reality it will just become ridiculously expensive, but that only gives us some additional time for the transition). When that happens, there better be a working infrastructure for EV (including fuel cells) in place, because neither coal nor nuclear is viable for direct installing in cars.

      --
      "Civis Europaeus sum!"
    4. Re:Depends on the energy source duh! by Sentrion · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But it's a factor consumers and policy makers need to be aware off. Where I live in Texas most electricity is produced by coal burning plants. If I'm trying to reduce my carbon footprint by carpooling, limiting my travel, and operating a fuel efficient ethanol burning vehicle, and then switch to an all-electric vehicle I might fool myself into thinking that all the energy consumed is clean and green. I might drive more often, longer distances, leave the vehicle running in idle to keep the A/C on, use the vehicle as a portable power source, etc. The impact of such behavior may lead to more total air pollution from the power demanded from the coal burning plants.

      Alternatively, if I built my own off-grid power system of wind turbines, solar panels, micro-hydro, and a digester with bio-gas turbine generator, I may end up with an energy surplus if I oversize the system or if I expect a need for all the power sometime in the future. The same frivolous consumption of electricity would not necessarily be as hard on the environment than when tied to a coal burning plant.

      When it comes to sustainability there is no one single fix or cure. Energy and resource conservation will alway be an important element. The equipment you own and operate needs to be manufactured with as little embedded energy as possible. Recycling will be important to keep landfills manageable. Reduced use, proper handling, and safe disposal/recycling of hazardous materials will be essential (ideally, moving away from such materials altogether).

    5. Re:Depends on the energy source duh! by drerwk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      http://www.theworld.org/2012/11/the-energy-costs-of-oil-production/ “Back in the 1920’s, oil was paying off at 100-to-1,” said Zencey. “It took one barrel of oil to extract, process, refine, ship and deliver 100 barrels of oil. That’s a phenomenal rate of return. If you work out the percentage, that’s a 10,000 percent rate of return.” But that’s not the rate of return today. Now, conventional oil production worldwide pays off at about a 20-to-1 ratio. And in Canada, where the oil comes from tar sands, it’s closer to 5-to-1. “Renewable energy sources are paying off at higher rates, 12-to-1, 15-to-1, 17-to-1. That tells you right there, hmmmm, the age of oil should be over.”

  2. paul revere on a bicycle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Should environmentally minded people really revere electric cars?"

    I'm environmentally minded. Guess what I revere. Yep, you got it, since it's a no-brainer: bicycles. Best machine humans have ever created. Good for the body and good for the earth. I've never owned a car, and I don't want to. I use car sharing programs when I need to drive and bicycle or use public transportation (or both) otherwise.

    And before anyone says "Well, but bicycles don't work for everyone: kids, job, blah blah," let me just squash that fallacious argument. Bicycle advocates *never* are saying we *all* have to ride bicycles. Just more of us. Everyone who wants to should feel they can. I bet you want to. Wind in the face, endorphin high, the feeling of doing things with your body, the joy of not destroying the earth to do the daily drudge: who doesn't want that?

  3. Which has multiple benefits by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The central power station is not making its emissions a few feet from the sidewalk. Its pollution controls aren't restricted by weight or the need for portability.

    It's also way more efficient.

    Electrifying the vehicle fleet is like modularizing your code. Instead of being tied to petroleum, with an electric fleet you can snap in nuclear, tidal, wind, geothermal, hydroelectric, or whatever else turns out to be a good idea.

  4. Re:We've been saying this for over a decade! by haruchai · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Even if we don't make the switch to cleaner sources, it's still a win. Collecting or cleaning up the emissions at a few thousand power plants should be easier, more efficient and cost-effective than doing it at tens of millions of tailpipes.
    Plus, it means that you don't get the smog-forming exhaust and ground-level ozone in your population centers. You also get some noise reduction since EVs are quieter and there's no engine idling.

    --
    Pain is merely failure leaving the body
  5. What is the value of flexibility? by OrangeTide · · Score: 5, Insightful

    While charging your electric car with coal power sounds like a bad deal in the short term. The electric doesn't care where that power comes from, so in the long term that gives us the flexibility to operate an energy economy that is based on a wide range of sources. Also, diversity in the market also means stability and theoretically fair prices. (but we'll probably cock that up)

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  6. Re:We've been saying this for over a decade! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's a pessimistic point of view.

    All other things are equal, one could argue that concentrating the hydrocarbon production might be a good thing, because it at least gives us the opportunity to efficiently process those emissions in one place instead of spewing it from millions of cars (or installing millions of scrubbers). I'm not saying that they WILL do better -- just that they could, and that it would likely be more efficient than anything you could slap onto a few million cars.

    Similarly, we would have the ability to start switching everyone to green power if everyone has an electric vehicle. Seen that way, keeping everyone on fossil fuels has a very high opportunity cost, because you can't switch a gasoline motor to solar/wind/nuclear.

  7. Re:We've been saying this for over a decade! by amoeba1911 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Unless we switch to solar, wind and/or nuclear for the bulk of our electricity generation, all electric cars do is concentrate where we burn the hydrocarbons to power them.

    and that's a good thing because the concentrated hydrocarbon cremation facilities can generate energy with >80% efficiency, while a car burning the same hydrocarbons generates energy with only 20% efficiency. This means you need to burn about three times as much hydrocarbons if you burn it in the car instead of at a power plant.

    The portable power plant you find in a car (internal combustion engine) does not even come close to the efficiency you find in a stationary power plant. The car simply wastes most of the fuel's energy as heat, and then wastes even more energy to get rid of all that heat it by swirling liquid around in a "radiator": a device whose sole purpose is to waste as much energy as possible to prevent the engine from melting itself. What's more, is when you step on the brakes all of the car's kinetic energy is wasted as even more heat. The whole thing is hugely wasteful and inefficient.

  8. Fundamental problem by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Basically we keep looking for "green" alternatives that don't require us to be even slightly inconvenienced or to change our lifestyles at all - and it's probably not possible.

    --
    #DeleteChrome