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The Savvy Tech Strategy Behind Obamacare

snydeq writes "The U.S. health care industry is undergoing several massive transformations, not the least of which is the shift to interoperable EHR (electronic health records) systems. The ONC's Doug Fridsma discusses the various issues that many health care IT and medical providers have raised regarding use of these systems, which are mandated for 2014 under the HITECH Act of 2004, and are all the more important in light of the 2010 Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, aka Obamacare. Key to the transition, says Fridsma, is transforming health IT for EHRs into something more akin to the Internet, and less like traditional ERP and IT systems. 'I think what we're trying to do is the equivalent of what you've got in the Internet, which is horizontal integration rather than vertical integration,' Fridsma says. 'We've done a lot of work looking at what other countries have done, and we've tried to learn from those experiences. Rather than trying to build this top down and create restrictions, we're really trying to ask, "What's the path of least regret in what we need to do?"'"

146 comments

  1. Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by hsmith · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Before the govt started handing out $44k for docs to adopt shitty EHR systems and collect free money. We now have a plethora of shitty EHR systems in hospitals that don't solve any issues at all.

    So, the government created this incentive (Which made a few companies insanely rich, like Epic, Cerner, and Athena) - and created this massive siloed data mess. Anyone who has worked in HIT knows what a complete failure this EHR rollout has been on every front.

    Even better are the CHIIT "certification" standards (aka, a complete pile of shit) which were to ensure that EHR software met a bunch of standards to get that $44k. One of the hallmarks was "Interoperability" - which to CHIIT meant "systems can communicate with themselves" - derp.

    The EHR rollout was a complete failure, mainly due to the govt pushing shit out on the marketplace with their stupid incentives. It is going to take over a decade to untangle the mess of complete crap.

    1. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by intermodal · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is from the same government that brought us the VA hospital system. I work in HIT myself, and I see nothing good coming of these new technology mandates.

      --
      In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
    2. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by cs668 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Actually makes things worse. Because when the EHR's are in place they usually make sure to maximize the billable services provided in the back office so that you make sure to submit every claim possible. This helps to raise healthcare costs instead of lowering them by reducing paperwork......

    3. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by MetalliQaZ · · Score: 0, Troll

      I think it's safe to assume from your short post consisting of nothing more than impotent rage that you are an American citizen that is considering leaving the country for good. Let me be the first to say "good riddance"

      --
      "Here Lies Philip J. Fry, named for his uncle, to carry on his spirit"
    4. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by hsmith · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Good idea, but in reality it should be all revolved around creating true standards and interoperability. Systems communicating together should have been the single desirable element in all of it. Instead, it was an afterthought. Now we get garbage like Commonwell (From the 5 largest EHR vendors) that will create more proprietary garbage.

      The people that created the mess we are in want to fix it? Please.

    5. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      The best way to do that would have been to recreate a FOSS reference implementation. Let this be the BIND of these types of systems. Also it would give an inexpensive starting point for all the other systems, so many vendors could compete for integration and management, or even alternate implementations.

    6. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by PatHMV · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Right on. Moreover, who benefits from all this, anyway? The idea is that the patient benefits, because an ER doc at one facility can see all of that patient's health records when treating him. But what if the patient doesn't want that? The reality is that all this centralized electronic data will benefit insurance companies, not patients. Once certain things (epilepsy, say) are flagged in your electronic, accessible to any person authorized by law to see them (and that will be insurance companies, governments, and probably your own employer at some point), then it's there, and you're tagged for life. Good luck getting a driver's license. Or overcoming the stigma of some unpopular disease.

      I don't WANT all of my medical records out there. I don't think it will benefit me or my health. But these days I have little choice.

    7. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by AK+Marc · · Score: 5, Interesting

      As opposed to the EHR before Obama, where I literally had to pay $200 for a hard copy of my X-ray to walk it two doors down the hall to give it to the doctor, who had to go walk down the hall the original place to see the electronic stored copy because the resolution wasn't sufficient on the hard copy, but it was stored electronically. I never had a patient system that talked to any others.

      I moved out of the US, now any doctor I go to in the country, can look me up by name and DOB and see my entire medical history (or health care number, which nobody ever has on them).

      The problem the US commits every time is that they ask the people who profit from the systems, how to make them. Every solution I've seen could have been done better by a bunch of high school students. The pros have a vested interest in making it fail. The worse it works, the longer they have jobs. And never are there financial penalties in government contracts.

    8. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by flink · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's already well underway: http://openehealth.org/

    9. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The biggest problem is not the concept. the concept is great. The problem is the laws are written by politicians rather than the people who have are forced to use the products. Does anyone really think that these politicians know ANYTHING about actual healthcare? I mean seriously. you need to team up programers and users to come up with the products that are needed.

      posting anon to save mods

    10. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by intermodal · · Score: 1

      I quite agree. Even then, I'm reminded of the saying that I'm just not going to take the time to find. It's something along the lines of "you don't get change by forcing it. You get change by bringing something to the table that people see and wonder how they got by without it." This government-mandated system is the exact opposite of that.

      --
      In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
    11. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      Why wouldn't you want your doctor to have your complete medical history at hand?

      I understand why you'd want to limit the access to your health records, but not if that includes doctors. Especially if it includes ER doctors.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    12. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Why wouldn't you want your doctor to have your complete medical history at hand?

      Because if they have it, so does the NSA.

    13. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Because if doctors have it then everyone has it -- in the above scenario, a patient has epilepsy but essentially doesn't want the government (DMV in this instance) to see that.

      - First of all, he is committing a crime. And anyone knowingly abetting that is in some legal jeapordy (may not be big).
      - Secondly, as soon as the doctor puts it on the chart, it gets stuck in the database. Then the insurer and anyone else who gets to see the database (? DMV) gets to see the diagnosis. It's like the Internet - once it's out there, the data''s not coming back. Access to the Big Database in the Sky isn't going to be hard to get, no matter what anyone says.

      So, if you have any medical secrets, be sure not to tell anyone. But don't get mad when some doctor prescribes another medication that interacts with your epilepsy drug and puts you in a coma (and those drugs tend to interact with lots of other drugs).

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    14. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is not the duty of citizens to complain, it is the duty of citizens to bring up informed critisism. (and fuck 'whoever' is not a very usefull cristsism even if they deserve it)

    15. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why wouldn't you want your doctor to have your complete medical history at hand?

      Doctors can be HIGHLY judgemental.

    16. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by brentrad · · Score: 2

      So what you're saying is, if you have epilepsy, you want the ability to hide that from the DMV, so that you can still drive your car while having a potentially very dangerous condition to have while driving? You want the "freedom" to continue to endanger the lives of others so that you're not inconvenienced by having to take public transportation. Gee, thanks for your concern for your fellow man.

      Not really that convincing an argument for keeping your medical diagnoses secret.

    17. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by modmans2ndcoming · · Score: 1

      Epic and Cerner are the best in the market from an over all EMR standpoint (there are specialty functions they will not due such as Hemodynamics etc). These systems give the IT staff a lot of control and power to implement functions that the staff ask for rather than simply asking the vendor for a feature and waiting for them to build it.

    18. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by modmans2ndcoming · · Score: 1

      The VA will be moving to a commercial product I think soon.

    19. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by modmans2ndcoming · · Score: 1

      The only billable services from Epic (the EMR that my employer uses) are the software support contract (maintenance patches/upgrades/technical support), any custom build you request (but the system is so flexible it is rarely needed) and training. Those seem pretty standard for any niche system. Epic is a lot more like IBM or Microsoft from a vendor standpoint than they are like GE.

    20. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by anagama · · Score: 1

      Concerning your sig, I think you have the wrong Superpower.

      But whatever, soon Nixon's healthcare plan (AKA obamacare) will be in full swing and with everything digitized and flying around the net, the NSA will have it too. I imagine Nixon hard on just bursting through his coffin by now. Thanks Obama.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    21. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by cs668 · · Score: 1

      Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant that many of these systems EMR/EHR have a table or laptop interface that is used by the physician or assistant in the exam room. They will indicate what observations/tests they are doing and what the results are. Those systems will suggest other things they should do, in part to ensure good out come, in part to maximize the coding on the claims that will be submitted from that visit. That is the part I was suggesting would actually drive up the healthcare costs, not the support contract or professional services. Although, those are not cheap and the data/vendor locking is crazy. Once they have you they have you, so make sure you get everything you want thrown into the original sale price, because they will screw you later when you can't migrate to a competitor.

    22. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by cs668 · · Score: 1

      Wow, just re-read my comment. Sorry about the bad spelling and typos. Just tired I guess!

    23. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by modmans2ndcoming · · Score: 1

      If the reimbursement system emphasizes maximizes the coding rather than the quality of the outcome versus the cost to get that outcome then the software has little responsibility other than providing efficiency.

    24. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by andrew.j.borell · · Score: 1

      Im gonna say you are half correct. Doctors are buying MU certified electronic records systems for two reasons.

      1. The government believes they know what is meaningful in healthcare. As part of a 600 billion dollar stimulus they committed 29 billion dollars on a first-come first-serve basis to general practices and hospitals in order to adopt electronic systems they deem to be meaningful.
      2. Medicare will reduce reimbursements if you are not using an electronic system certified ONC-ATCB. 2% this year, then 3% next year and so on.

      Here is where I disagree. The push for MU certified EHR's has not helped to create more jobs and EHR software vendors. ONC-ATCB, CCHIT, and Electronic prescribing certifications are very costly. Smaller companies with tighter budgets have been squeezed out of the market, and those lucky enough to be bought out have seen their staff and products suffer attrition. So the market is not being saturated with more shitty software products. The market has the same shitty products and is being under-saturated with higher quality innovative products during this meaningful use money-grab.

      Doctors are buying up these systems under the impression that the cost of ownership over 5 years is practically nothing because the government will give them meaningful use money. I never thought MU would be solvent through 2019, and I happen to know doctors who have received letters from the state where they practice advising that they dont have money to pay them for MU at this time. So the docs absorb this cost up front, some may never see any money, and once the MU program ends, they are stuck in a subscription contract paying over 600 dollars per month per physician for a shitty EHR that is more of a hindrance than a tool the treat patients and run a business.

      What's even crappier is as some of these systems are sunset, if the provider attested for meaningful use, then they must maintain their records for up to 9 years for audit; or be forced to pay back the MU money they received. The vendors that have bought out and terminated products do not have to offer a comprehensive migration path for their patient records and have no responsibility to maintain those systems as long as the doctors need to keep them for audits. That is bullshit! Back in the day, if the doctor switched brands of tabbed manilla folders this was not a problem. It doesn't end there though. When they are pigeon-holed into a new product it costs a lot of time and money to train staff. Training is often around $125 per hour, and usually runs about $3000 total for any decent training.

      If the governments head wasn't up its own ass, they would have committed 29 billion dollars to small vendors and startups to produce more innovative EHR's and drive competition in the market to create these more inter-operable systems.

      Oh, and IMO, CCHIT really isn't an inter-operability standard. I think of HL7, CCD, CCR and things of that nature when I think of standards. In my free time I write software to help doctors get their data out of their old system and into their new system as seamlessly as possible. I have a SOAP based model I have coded from the bottom up for data conversions in these systems, which i recently added some exposed methods for interfacing. That is what they really need to make these systems communicate with each other. Take HL7 to the next level... maybe they can call it HL8. :)

    25. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by crazyvas · · Score: 1

      This. And it gets even worse if you have a diagnosis that you don't agree with (much more common than you think). That stays on your centralized, global record forever too. It doesn't take much imagining to see the consequences.

    26. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're missing the argument and arguing about the example. And even in that extremely narrow view, you're refusing to see the other side. What if the epilepsy was a misdiagnosis? Try taking that off your record.

    27. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by andrew.j.borell · · Score: 1

      You must work for one of them, and Im guessing you only work in the acute care segment. Epic is the most linear, rigid, and costly system in the market. Although I will admit its tightly integrated between acute and ambulatory care. I feel like they might be afraid of competition when it comes to inter-operability. Cerner's products are half-assed at best but they offer much more inter-operability because EMR is a secondary or tertiary market to them and like McKesson, they make their money in other places.

    28. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by andrew.j.borell · · Score: 1

      indeed, which will ultimately affect how you are rated for health and life insurance. This is a terrible approach to healthcare because if I know my rates will be affected by what I share with my doctor and how they diagnose me, then I probably wouldn't have the proclivity to disclose important information about my health to a physician in the future.

    29. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by andrew.j.borell · · Score: 1

      Not many EHR's are built around a practice management. Except for example Athena, which in that case I completely agree.

    30. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right, it isn't, which is why you picked it from all of the possibilities as a straw-man argument to attack.

      If all data is shared, the insurance companies will benefit. It will inhibit people in general sharing things with health professionals which it would otherwise be a public good to have treated. An addict who wants a possibility of cleaning up and living a normal life, for example, would never ever ever ever ever be able to make use of the services which could help treat the addition.

      Of course it's probably fine if you're Jimmy Fucking Boy Scout, never get sick, live in the burbs, and work for the same Fortune 500 company for 45 years until retirement.

    31. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What? Under what circumstances does a DMV ever get to pull medical records? As far as I know, they don't. Now, there were some companies, such as $M, that wanted to monetize health records; but a majority of the vendors that succeeded don't. The only way you get access to patient information is if you are the patient, a biller in the office, the patient's insurance (and then you only get to see what's on the claim unless there's legal action or you are some how connected to the hospital, see ACOs), or a legitimate provider with the security (granted by the organization who has the data) to see that.

      Because of laws like HIPPA, that medical record is actually one of the few records in existence that has some rights to protection.

      I didn't see NSA in your post, but if you were thinking it, since these systems are often run by the hospitals themselves, if the NSA wanted this data they'd need to either hack the hospital or buy off the vendor. However, I find both of these scenarios to be more unlikely. Any vendor that even thought about doing that, if it became public, would be in violation of so many contracts they'd be utterly destroyed by the law suits that would follow. And, hospitals don't work together. They do tend to silo their data until its required by another organization. While its true that that is changing and more hospitals are communicating, they generally do it between each other without the third party.

      HIEs as much as they are touted by the gov, tend to be a waste of time and resources. They go unsupported because they are too expensive. Its much easier, if you have the data to just find a communication protocol between you and another hospital than it is to find a way to pay for an entirely separate entity to be a bank of information.

      Anyhow, the only way the NSA gets your medical records is by intercepting the secured communications between hospitals; and then they only get it because they are taking everything else as well by vacuuming up all of the internet traffic.

      I'd be more worried about your phone data, and the people who collects banks of data on you and sell it to other people. Was it Target that can tell that you're pregnant based on a list of 24 items that you bought, sometimes before you even know you're pregnant?

    32. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by brentrad · · Score: 1

      DMV worker: "I see as of 2009 your record says you have epilepsy. I can't give you a driver's license."
      Anonymous Coward: "See that notation from my doctor in 2010? Where it says that was a misdiagnosis and I never had epilepsy?"
      DMV worker: "Oh yes, you're right. Here's your license Mr Coward."

      That was hard.

    33. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by modmans2ndcoming · · Score: 1

      1) I said they were the best in the market, not as good as it will ever be.
      2) I do not work for either
      3) How is Epic Rigid or Linear? I find it is neither. Both system s are only as good as the people who are employed o implement them.

    34. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by bbsalem · · Score: 1

      Man do I agree with you. 'F*ck" whether it is followed by "You" or some other object, is the most useless response ever, and it peppers public discourse everywhere. It is the cancer that is destroying the country, just as using the F-word as every orther word in a sentence degrades the conversation it is part of. So why even open your mouth?

      There are many people. it seems mostly with penises, who would have it no other way, and I am tired of them and wish they would go live somewhere else, or change their tunes. What I am realizing is that it is revealing a most unmanly cowardice, a fear, to make the effort to argue to find solutions to problems. It is a dismissal not even due to arrogance and bigotry, but of nothing between the ears, as if growing up offered no useful experience or knowledge. So shut up and stop wasting our time unless you can figure out how to put two or three thought in a sequence coherently.

    35. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by tom+arnall · · Score: 1

      what i love about the article is how the suit blithely goes on about a project he's managing when he has no one competent to build it. the only people he's got are yes boys and girls who will promise everything they think will help their job security and produce nothing but cr*p for show time. gutless people make gutless software.

    36. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by ideonexus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This. This. This.

      My wife and I had our second child two weeks ago. Despite the fact that we had spent nine months working closely with a clinic that had been monitoring the pregnancy, dispensing the proper medications, and who had midwives and doctors working at the hospital we would be delivering at, when we arrived at the hospital we found that they had NOTHING in their systems regarding my wife and her medical history. We then spent an hour telling the triage nurse everything we knew about the pregnancy from memory, until a doctor from our clinic finally showed up at the hospital with a big folder of printouts that no one had time to look at because my wife delivered a half hour later.

      When we asked afterwards why the hospital had no record of us despite the fact that they knew we would be delivering there, they explained their system had no way to transfer electronic records and that they were still relying on printouts that would have to be entered by hand. Amusingly enough, they were launching a new networked electronic system while we were there that would enable the transfer of records.

      Of course, the hospital staff freely admitted the new system was a complete headache to learn and that they had resisted it as long as possible, but thanks to "Obamacare" they were now required by law to implement such a system. Let that sink in for a moment. Hospitals are perfectly happy to have absolutely no information on the patients that arrive in their emergency rooms in America because upgrading their information systems is a hassle.

      People complain about government regulations, but in this case, I'm perfectly happy to have government give the Medical industry a swift regulatory kick in the ass on this. There is no excuse for endangering human lives like this.

      --
      i ~ Celebrating Science, Cyberspace, Speculation
    37. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      This is from the same government that brought us the VA hospital system. I work in HIT myself, and I see nothing good coming of these new technology mandates.

      Well, apparently you don't work in medical care quality and outcomes analysis.

      "RAND's study, led by Dr. Steven Asch, found that the VA system delivered higher-quality care than the national sample of private hospitals on all measures except acute care (on which the two samples performed comparably). In nearly every other respect, VA patients received consistently better care across the board, including screening, diagnosis, treatment, and access to follow-up ... Other studies have generated similar findings.." http://www.rand.org/blog/2012/08/socialized-or-not-we-can-learn-from-the-va.html

      This isn't a fringe or polarized opinion, it's pretty much accepted in the field; as is the theory that a lot of the credit goes to the VA's electronic records system, which IS interoperable and is heavily used in order to monitor quality, identify problems and intervene, and all the things that you can do to improve quality when you aren't flying blind.

      To get off my high horse, though, I can understand why anyone working in Health IT would be sour on the field. Most of what's out there is awful, and there's no news more chilling to a clinician than "We're adopting a new, easy to use electronic record system". But healthcare has been stuck in the 1950s end of the information revolution way too long, long after every other major industry has gotten on top of the horse.

      It's something like the auto industry in the 60s, reacting to the government decrees for safety. If you're old enough, you can remember the horrors perpetrated on the public by the manufacturers in their snit over being told what to do; the nonretracting shoulder belts which had to be stored in clips above the door, the passive restraint belts with the little mechanical mouse which whizzed around the doorframe every time it was opened or shut.... but after that phase, look how far we've progressed now. If the industry needs a kick in the ass to get it to move into the present, let alone the future, then so be it.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    38. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      "But what if the patient doesn't want that? "

      Yeah, the last thing you want a doctor to know is what else is going on with your health, what drugs you take that might affect his diagnosis or prescription, what physical or genetic conditions you might have, what family history of disease you have, etc.....

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    39. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      You do realize that the insurance companies already have full access to your medical records, as part of their contract to insure you, electronic or written, and that if your doctor fails to disclose anything he is liable to get his butt kicked, and if you fail to disclose anything you are very likely to NOT get that million dollar claim that we buy insurance against paid? And that the same ACA which pushes for electronic records will take the pressure off the need to hide preexisting conditions from potential insurers who otherwise wouldn't touch you?

      And that as part of this move to electronic records, the government has beefed up health privacy laws to the point where there is a $1,000 penalty for accidental disclosure of information and a $250,000 penalty for criminal disclosure FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL RECORD, along with 10 years in jail as a criminal penalty (i.e. provide an employer with health info on a hundred employees, get fined $25,000,000)? Which specifically includes your employer, even your family (such things as leaving test results on an answering machine at your house are a violation, for example); the only reason it doesn't include your insurance company is that aforementioned contract. Ironically, the only people who currently have absolute privacy in their healthcare are the uninsured, who don't actually have to hide anything sensitive (expensive) from an insurer. Another lucky break for the homeless.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    40. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the fuck are you talking about? [adjusts balls]

    41. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      There is a problem though. My mother is involved with an independent home care startup. Home care is part of the new push to provide better care and keeps costs under control. Like I said, there are some problems. First, you need experienced nurses (which are retiring) to provide in-home care since they are often by themselves driving from patient to patient--new grads can not do the job and there is not enough money involved to pay two nurses to travel around while one is in training. The older nurses like home care because it frees them to work their own schedule and frees them from the politics of working in an institution (any experienced nurse is already sick of that). The drawback is the amount of work required to get paid for home care. After these older experienced nurses travel to patients all day they have ten hours of paper work to look forward to in order for the company to get paid. Now, the idea behind all of this detailed paperwork is great as it is meant to establish a meticulous record in order for the healthcare to be tracked and evaluated but I see this emerging industry bending under the need for experienced nurses who are willing to bust their ass and then spend an entire day completing detailed charting for a paycheck that figures out to minimum wage (or close to it when you consider the hours involved). These experienced nurses drop like flies and each loss is a hard hit to these home care providers. My mom loves it but she says she has to get out.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    42. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      They are not YOUR records, they are merely records of your health care. They belong to the doctors or the medical institutions. The medical records are not for your consumption and most practitioners will not let you have them. Sometimes people get a peek at the records but you are not going to get a copy typically. You have no choice about their propagation.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    43. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by brentrad · · Score: 1

      You're arguing that insurance companies shouldn't be able to have all this patient information. They already have it! Even without any changes to how we do things currently. You generally sign a waver before any doctor treats you, that says that they can share all the info from your visit for purposes of paying the claim and etc.

      One of the major provisions of Obamacare/ACA is getting rid of preexisting conditions, so insurance companies can't deny care based on the fact that you've had some disease in the past. So why would you then care if an insurance company has information about you?

      Besides, there are strict rules about who can access a patient's private health care information. A company who wished to hire someone would not have access to the patient's past medical history unless they specifically had the applicant sign a waiver stating they could access that. I wouldn't sign such a thing as a condition of employment, I dunno about you. And if the laws currently don't prohibit employers asking for such a waiver, I'd support such a law.

      It seems to me that you have this idea that because there will be electronic medical records shared more easily between medical entities, that means that everyone, everywhere will now have access to your private medical records. You apparently have no idea about the HIPAA laws. They are very specific about exactly who can have access to a patient's information, and the main thing that controls where a patients' data can go is the patient themselves. I'm assuming you didn't read the article either - there are several examples in there where they discuss exactly this - private information about mental health, and not even allowing your general practitioner to see that you're taking certain drugs for mental disorders.

    44. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by modmans2ndcoming · · Score: 1

      My wife worked home care for 3 years...It sucked.

    45. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by intermodal · · Score: 1

      That may be RAND's verdict, but I don't know a lot of veterans who would agree with their results being better.

      --
      In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
    46. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      Dork monkey, you didn't understand the question. Restricting access to non doctors == GOOD, Restricting access to doctors == BAD

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    47. Re:Too bad someone didn't figure this all out by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      Yes, they can be. Like how they won't give you the pain medicine that the medical record indicates will kill you. Damn judgmental doctors!

      Speaking as one who has multiple family members in the ER. They don't f'n care if your're a prostitute on heroin who just shot a 3 year old, or a professional athlete with an artificial substance in your body cavity. They just want to fix you up and pass you on to the next stage. They see everything, it makes them understand crazy situations that we all find ourselves in.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
  2. -1 Redundant Technology by some+old+guy · · Score: 1

    Why not just parse the existing NSA database?

    No point in reinventing the wheel. Like a good neighbor, Big Brother is there!

    --
    Scruting the inscrutable for over 50 years.
    1. Re:-1 Redundant Technology by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      well..

      you know why most of these are top down? so that there's some control on who gets to the data. obviously if you drop that requirement then doing the data sharing between hospitals etc is pretty easy.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    2. Re:-1 Redundant Technology by Mitreya · · Score: 1

      Why not just parse the existing NSA database?

      Snowden hasn't yet confirmed that NSA trawls medical history. Maybe they don't (yet).

  3. Bingo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I just filled out my BS bingo card when they called both "horizontal integration" and "vertical integration".

    On topic: The path of least regret would have been single payer system, but we somehow ended up with a Republican profit-utopia called "Obamacare".

    1. Re:Bingo by h4rr4r · · Score: 3

      Infinity Imaginary mod points to you sir.

    2. Re:Bingo by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      On topic: The path of least regret would have been single payer system, but we somehow ended up with a Republican profit-utopia called "Obamacare".

      Yea, almost as if Republicans weren't the only ones who wanted it...

      Partisanship: because independent thought is hard!

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    3. Re:Bingo by istartedi · · Score: 1

      Infinity Imaginary mod points to you sir.

      Who do you think you are? Ben Bernanke?

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    4. Re:Bingo by AmazingRuss · · Score: 1

      And here it was the democrats were supposed to be the smart ones.

    5. Re:Bingo by Geste · · Score: 2

      In the Clinton era (think HRC and Ira Magaziner) the arrogant, doomed approach was to use the Democratic "Big Tent" and invite all players -- pharma and insurers included -- to invent some fanciful "Health Care Reform (TM)" that would make all parties happy. Instead, insurers and pharma burned down the tent, scattered the ashes, then stabbed Health Care Reform to death.

      Fast forward to the Obama admiserablestration, and there's not even a pretense of making anybody happy beyond the guys with the knives. You might call Clinton's failure a blunder born of hubris, but Obama's "success" is a tawdry monument to special interests and avarice.

      The one rational chance for "reform" would have been a hard-fought, progressive fight for single-payer. That chance sank to the ocean floor in 1993.

    6. Re:Bingo by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      I just filled out my BS bingo card when they called both "horizontal integration" and "vertical integration".

      On topic: The path of least regret would have been single payer system, but we somehow ended up with a Republican profit-utopia called "Obamacare".

      Maybe he should have had all the meetings in the open, and broadcast on CSPAN, like he promised to do during the campaign, instead of negotiating the entire thing behind closed doors with the corporate executives and buying votes with pork and bribes.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    7. Re:Bingo by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      On topic: The path of least regret would have been single payer system, but we somehow ended up with a Republican profit-utopia called "Obamacare".

      Infinity Imaginary mod points to you sir.

      Infinity irony points to you, fellow poster.

      It is often claimed that Obamacare is a Republican creation by way of the Heritage Foundation. In fact the Heritage plan was substantially different, and they figured out quite some time ago that plan was not a good idea, and they disowned it.

      In fact, Obamacare was written by Democrats in Congress with help from a progressive think tank.

      Center For American Progress President Shares Part In Obamacare: "I Helped Write The Bill"

      Obamacare was passed in Congress on a straight party line vote.

      House passes health-care reform bill without Republican votes

      Obamacare was signed into law by President Obama.

      So how is a law written by Democrats assisted by progressive think tanks, passed solely by Democrats, and signed into law by a Democrat President a "Republican" plan?

      PRUDEN: Obamacare called ‘The fiasco for the ages’
      Democrats' New Argument: It's A Good Thing That Obamacare Doubles Individual Health Insurance Premiums
      Analysis: Obamacare to cost $2.6 trillion over first full decade

      President Barack Obama promised his health-care law would cost approximately $900 billion over ten years when he first proposed it. Since then, the price tag has continued to climb. Total spending under the Affordable Care Act will reach $2.6 trillion over its first full decade, according to a Senate Budget Committee analysis, which was based on Congressional Budget Office estimates and growth rates.

      It is said that success has many fathers but failure is an orphan. Trying to leave the Obamacare baby in a basket on the Republican's doorstep won't work. The bastard stepchild of Obamacare belongs to the Democrats.

       

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    8. Re:Bingo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice job on linking tons of unrelated posts in order to appear authoritative. Luckily anyone who actually clicks through them will see through your cover. Your historical revisionism does not work here; it will only be called out as it should be. At least you behave exactly like every other pro-corporate shill so you're easy to put down :)

  4. This article is built on a bad premise. by intermodal · · Score: 3, Informative

    There is nothing necessary about what they're mandating.

    Thanks to the way Washington, D.C., works, the end result will be smug bureaucrats patting each other on the back, and doctors wondering if they should just find a different field to work in.

    --
    In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
    1. Re:This article is built on a bad premise. by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      There is nothing necessary about what they're mandating.

      Yeah, these computer things are so transient and unnecessary.

    2. Re:This article is built on a bad premise. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wow. That was obtuse to the point of irrelevant.

    3. Re:This article is built on a bad premise. by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      wow. That was obtuse to the point of irrelevant.

      See that's a fine criticism, it's just you usually follow it with a clarifying statement explaining what the relevant point ignored was, rather than just stewing in your own smug superiority.

    4. Re:This article is built on a bad premise. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll leave the smug superiority to you. I wouldn't want to devalue your trademark.

  5. Gotta make it electronic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because the NSA can't hack paper.

  6. Just another method of tracking you. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This all sounds good... It sounds good like using Skype to make phone calls until you find out everything has been freely handed to the NSA... Now, everything in your medical records is available to the NSA and Obama... I'm not at all happy about the prospect!

  7. It uses the standard government tech strategy by Richy_T · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Costs three times as much as the originally budgeted cost, is delivered five times past the deadline and doesn't do a tenth of what was promised.

    1. Re:It uses the standard government tech strategy by Capt.DrumkenBum · · Score: 1

      Costs three times as much as the originally budgeted cost, is delivered five times past the deadline and doesn't do a tenth of what was promised.

      You sir, are an optimist.

      --
      If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
    2. Re:It uses the standard government tech strategy by schwit1 · · Score: 1

      Wait until you find out it only works with Internet Explorer.

    3. Re:It uses the standard government tech strategy by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Wait until you find out it only works with Internet Explorer.

      IE6. With NoScript disabled, and some proprietary ActiveX component that NEVER FUCKING DOWNLOADS RIGHT.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    4. Re:It uses the standard government tech strategy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow - so you're saying it will be in the top 5% of delivery quality?

  8. Learning from what other countries have done? by Hatta · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Other countries have single payer health care, which delivers better outcomes at a lower cost. Try learning from that.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    1. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That does not maximize insurance industry profit. Which is in fact the entire point of the ACA.

    2. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by dfenstrate · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Other countries have single payer health care, which delivers better outcomes at a lower cost. Try learning from that.

      And those countries do that by either gaming the statistics, or having a homogenized society where social pressure to conserve public resources can be successfully applied.

      --
      Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
    3. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by JWW · · Score: 1

      Yep. It really amazes me that Obama set up the law so that he had to fight with states to set up health care exchanges.

      All he had to do was have the law make health insurance markets work across state lines (easily justified by the commerce clause) and then he would have had to only set up ONE exchange for the whole country.

      But, of course, the insurance companies would not have made as much money that way.

    4. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      A lie, on both accounts.

      Unless you consider starving to death over 1,100 patients a year a "better outcome."

    5. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Other countries have a navy that could drown in a bathtub and are just hoping nobody bothers them, or a population the size of a single state with an economy based on depleting resources, or are spiraling towards insolvency after several decades of government largesse, or some combination of all those things. Try learning from that.

    6. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That does not maximize insurance industry profit. Which is in fact the entire point of the ACA.

      Nope. The entire point of the ACA is to destroy the insurance industry, causing an emergency for which the only solution will be single-payer.

      They told the insurance industry "sure we're bending you over a barrel here, but at least you are going to get a lot more people buying policies." The insurance industry never wanted this, but tried to get the best deal they could to try to weather the storm.

      But insurance companies are screwed. If you don't buy insurance, you pay a penalty, which goes to the US federal government and not the insurance companies. The penalty is cheaper than insurance, and because of "no preexisting conditions" the insurance companies have to accept you even if you took the penalty for years. So, when you are young and healthy, you pay the penalty; then when you get cancer, or get hit by a car, or incur any other major health problem, you immediately sign up for insurance, they have to take you. So the insurance company gets one month of premiums and then pays big for care. The ACA makes it so that the rational thing to do is only to sign up for insurance when you know you have bills that will cost more than the insurance payment.

      Also, the ACA defines what kind of insurance you must buy: did you want high deductible with low premiums? Sorry, you can't have that, the ACA doesn't allow high deductibles. So premiums are guaranteed to be high, thus encouraging people to just pay the penalty.

      Is this by design, or is the ACA incompetently written? I'm pretty sure it's the former.

      I remember seeing a YouTube video of a Democrat in Washington D.C. talking to a group. "People say the Affordable Care Act has a 'Trojan Horse' hidden inside it that will lead to single payer. What's hidden about it? It's right there!" The audience laughed and cheered.

      I couldn't find that one but I did find this. At about 4:40 a Democrat says "some guy from the insurance industry said the public option would put insurance companies out of business. He was right!"

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=926bPZiQhgY

    7. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Hatta · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Single payer just makes sense. A centralized, not for profit system is going to be more efficient than a thousand different companies with their finger in the pie.

      And what's wrong with a little pressure to conserve resources? Waste is rampant in the medical industry. As it is now, hospitals get paid for an x-ray whether it's needed or not. More needless tests means more profit, exactly the wrong incentive. We need to tie funding to outcomes, not procedures, and a centralized system is the right way to do that.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    8. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by CanHasDIY · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yep. It really amazes me that Obama set up the law so that he had to fight with states to set up health care exchanges.

      Ah, well, simple answer there - he didn't

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    9. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      their citizens also have few rights, are manipulated by punitive taxation, then routinely have their life choices dictated by the state so that it can cut costs. these savings go right into funding more bureaucratic growth. in many of these countries, life has already hit not worth living status imo.

      while there is no free lunch, ill take freedom over socialism anyday (that includes political shitpiles like obamacare). it's too bad washington doesnt care any more about freedom than these so called 'enlightened' countries do.

    10. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Riiiight. Did you "learn" that from Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh?

      (Because thinking for yourself is clearly the greatest sin. Right above actually checking things.)

      I'm German btw.

    11. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Lower infant mortality, longer life spans, etc. are *clearly* made up statistics. There is *no* way such numbers could ever be come up with that could be trusted-- impossible. /sarcasm

      Facts oppose your opinion. If spreading unsubstantiated FUD is your only counter then you have no rational basis for your opinion.

      If you feel otherwise, provide citations please.

    12. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      their citizens also have few rights, are manipulated by punitive taxation, then routinely have their life choices dictated by the state so that it can cut costs. these savings go right into funding more bureaucratic growth. in many of these countries, life has already hit not worth living status imo.

      Are you aware that you're talking about European Nordic countries like Norway, Sweden, Denmark etc.? In those countries life is very worth living. It's way better than in the US, where born poor means staying poor. Everybody is given a fair chance at succeeding in life, including free higher education.

    13. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by phayes · · Score: 1

      Are we talking about the nordic petro economy (aka norway, that thanks to Oil still has the money to spend maintaining the welfare state) or the other countries that have been tightening their belts over the past 5 years?

      --
      Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
    14. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21578725-scandinavian-idyll-disrupted-arson-and-unrest-blazing-surprise

    15. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Kjella · · Score: 2

      And those countries do that by either gaming the statistics, or having a homogenized society where social pressure to conserve public resources can be successfully applied.

      And several moderators from the USA! USA! USA! crowd have swallowed it hook, line and sinker already. If any country is doing anything better than the US, they must be lying or the situation is not comparable. Here's how it really works, most of our doctors are public employees working for a public doctor's office or hospital which means they don't have any direct incentive to pad the bills. Private institutions mostly do things by public requisition like this patient needs a back surgery, here's $X to do it and there are no kickbacks to the referring doctor. Our patients wants the best treatment money can buy (without paying the money) just like yours and we too have limited funds. The difference is that we mainly leave it to the doctors to decide what is a medical necessity rather than the insurance companies what is a legal necessity.

      Just because our coverage is universal, it doesn't mean that we're handing out treatments and medications and aids left and right. You have to go through a whole system with your general practitioner, specialists and an application process who employ their own reviewers to be issued an aid, yes you might eventually get a free hearing air or wheel chair but chances are very good that you have a real medical need for one and you don't want to "lose" it to start the paperwork all over again. Not that there's much of a domestic market anyway since those who need it eventually get it for free so you'd have to smuggle it out of the country. Besides it's not like you're getting pampered there, unless I have a real reason for being there I don't want to be stuck in the doctor's office - or rather the waiting area.

      Speaking of waiting, we have queues for many kinds of surgery - even if you've passed the medical requirements and everyone has signed off that yes you should have it you're still going to wait for capacity and they have priorities there as well, it's not the person with the right insurance policy who pays the most it's the person with the most dire medical need. I'm not going to pretend that it's all flowers and sunshine and that every patient is actually treated perfectly equally, but we're at least working towards that goal. To that end we also have guest patients, if your local hospital doesn't have capacity you can have the surgery at any other public hospital in the country that does. It's not like in the US where you're stuck with the hospitals your insurance company has a deal with. But hey, social pressure sure. Let's pretend.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    16. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Hatta · · Score: 2

      What good is freedom if you can't exercise it for fear of medical bankruptcy? Social safety nets make us all more free.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    17. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by phantomfive · · Score: 0

      Centralized control is not known for its efficiency and lack of waste.

      I don't really care if we have single payer or not, but I think it's foolish to think that making huge changes in the system at once will automatically make things better. France and Germany don't have nearly the difficulties we would have in a single payer system, based on size alone.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    18. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a physician practicing in the US. If it comes to pass where I must become a de facto "public employee" or cannot make the money I feel my services are worth, then I will retire or limit my practice to those patients who can afford a "concierge" type service. Anyway, America is not Europe and ObamaCare will be an unmitigated disaster for its citizens and economy. And we certainly got what we (not I) voted for.

    19. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have no idea what you're talking about.

    20. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Nimey · · Score: 1

      Go home, Alex Jones, you're drunk.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    21. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by epyT-R · · Score: 0

      In general, if you speak your mind and criticize politically correct positions in these countries, some statesman will find a way to get you into jail. After all, there's no freedom of speech in these countries. Oh, and you pay nearly 50% of your income +25% VAT to the state. I fail to see how that's 'fair.' Keeping what you earn is what's fair. The socialist definition of 'fair' is childlike at best.. like a 6 year old screaming that he only got $5 allowance for setting the table while his 12yo brother got $15, when he did so for accomplishing tasks much more complex and difficult than his younger brother's.

      Like I said, there's no utopia. Everything is a cost/benefit analysis. I prefer to live in a society that lets me have more control over my property and wealth, and fewer limitations on how I get it and live my life. I don't want nannies artificially limiting my available choices or my opinions because some group is butthurt or jealous about it. Worse, many times, these nannies are responsible for breeding said group's entitlement attitude in the first place, just to get votes! Real egalitarian societies wouldn't have laws favoring one set of supposedly irrelevant attributes over another under the guise of fighting discrimination over said attributes! All countries with such policies fail this litmus test. They are not egalitarian, period.

      Does liberty have drawbacks sometimes? Of course, but you can't tell me those countries are just so much better off. They're not. They made tradeoffs just the same, tradeoffs I wouldn't want to live with.

    22. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      only as free as the government will tolerate the expenditure. If it decides your behavior is too costly (or just uses cost as an excuse to kill behavior it finds 'dangerous' to its powerbase), it will get taxed into oblivion, or made outright illegal...and if you're caught, you lose your healthcare...permanently. I prefer the current system over that because I still retain the choice and the power. healthcare is just one of the current beachheads for socialist governments to chip away at liberty in other areas.

    23. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When that resource is grandpa living too long and not willingly getting Liverpooled it is wrong. When a central bureaucracy decides that the best outcome is to start measuring the value of life conserve its resources it is wrong.

    24. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Politifact: Is the penalty less than the cost of insurance? TRUE
      http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/jan/24/ron-desantis/desantis-says-obamacare-tax-cheaper-insurance/

      CBO estimates that 6 million people will pay penalty rather than buy insurance in 2014; also, IRS says the cheapest insurance for a family under the ACA will be $20,000. (I think the CBO estimates will prove to be very low. $20K is more than the pre-ACA average cost of insurance for a family.)
      http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2013/03/05/six-million-to-pay-obamacare-penatly-n1526185

      Columnist spells out the details on why the penalty is cheaper than insurance and says he already cancelled his insurance. (He thinks this implies that the ACA will "crash" and that the architects of the ACA are worried. I think this is an intended feature, paving the road for single payer.)
      http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2013/01/25/Politifact-Ignores-Primary-Reason-Obama-Might-Crash

      Investors Business Daily asks "will only suckers buy insurance under the ACA?" and suggests insurance companies are headed for a "death spiral" (words in original).
      http://news.investors.com/021913-644948-will-only-suckers-buy-obamacare-coverage.htm?p=full

    25. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by brentrad · · Score: 2

      The entire point of the ACA is to destroy the insurance industry, causing an emergency for which the only solution will be single-payer.

      We can only hope. That would be the best possible outcome. Tell me again what the point of insurance companies is?

    26. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The disconnect here is rather striking. I watched that entire video and it took me a while to realise that it was anti-ACA, especially since no arguments were made that single-payer was a Bad Thing. If what you say is true, then Obama is a savvy politician who has pwned the Rs and done something that about 70% of the US population wants and most of the rest of the civilised world already enjoys!

      It kind of made my day.

    27. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Centralized control is not known for its efficiency and lack of waste.

      I don't really care if we have single payer or not, but I think it's foolish to think that making huge changes in the system at once will automatically make things better. France and Germany don't have nearly the difficulties we would have in a single payer system, based on size alone.

      Why? Germany is not as small as you think it is. The US is only 4x larger.

    28. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 0

      Lower infant mortality, longer life spans, etc. are *clearly* made up statistics. There is *no* way such numbers could ever be come up with that could be trusted-- impossible. /sarcasm

      Facts oppose your opinion. If spreading unsubstantiated FUD is your only counter then you have no rational basis for your opinion.

      If you feel otherwise, provide citations please.

      What do those statistics have to do with health care? Infant mortality is calculated so much differently in each country, it's difficult to make any comparison at all, and life span is about life style, not quality of health care systems. Try checking, for instance, cancer survival rates, medical treatment for heart attack victims and survivability, trauma survival after emergency care, and mobility restoration after stroke. That's how you measure the quality of health care, not by when people die, by how the treatment they get works after they require it.

      There are certainly cost and access problems with health care in the United States, but Obamacare really doesn't do anything to fix those problems, and it exacerbates many of them. This is just one example of that.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    29. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For someone full of nonsense, you sure do know a lot. But then you already knew that, didn't you?

    30. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently you also have the freedom from spelling, grammar and capitalization. Well played sir (or madam)!

    31. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We can only hope. That would be the best possible outcome. Tell me again what the point of insurance companies is?

      Are you opposed to auto insurance, fire insurance, theft insurance on expensive paintings, etc? If not, then I think you already understand the point of insurance.

      Insurance allows risk to be spread across a large pool. When done correctly, it works. For health care, the more the government jacks with the system, the more messed up the system gets.

      If we want to make sure that poor people have access to care, let's extend the benefits of Medicare, not scrap everything and force everyone into a new system.

      The problem with single-payer is that one size doesn't fit all. In countries with single-payer, if something common place happens (e.g. you break your arm) you get free care, it all works, and you are pretty happy. But when you get cancer, or something else very out of the ordinary, single payer gives a much worse result (ie more people die) than the US.

      http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/cancer-societys-deadly-medicine

      I assume that you want the greatest good for the greatest number of people. I want that too! But I believe that single payer isn't as good as a free market. The expense of medicine in the US is better fixed with reforms than by junking everything and going single-payer. You may not agree, but I hope you don't think everyone who disagrees with you is an inhuman monster who just wants poor people to suffer and die.

    32. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Q-Hack! · · Score: 1

      Just because 70% of the population wants something, doesn't mean it is a good idea. We may well end up with a single payer system. Good luck finding a doctor when we do.

      There are many things we could have done to bring down the cost of medical care. eg. Force doctors to post their prices. Not force insurance agencies into "must provide" plans. Allow insurance to be purchased across state lines, etc... Hell, just bring back the free market's risk/reward concept to the medical world. Sadly, none of these options will ever see the light of day. But don't let my ranting get in the way of your utopian view of how a single payer system will solve everything.

      Meanwhile, I will sit here and wait quietly in the VA hospital for my chance to be seen... I am told it might be next Thursday.

      --
      Some days I get the sinking feeling Orwell was an optimist.
    33. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by brentrad · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nope, I'm just opposed to health insurance (in its current form.) Auto/fire/theft insurance is one of those "just in case" things. If you are careful, you may never need to use that insurance, and therefore your insurance costs will be lower, and that's a great thing.

      Health insurance is a different thing altogether, because everyone is going to need to get health care throughout their life. Even if you're careful, exercise all the time, eat well, you could still have a incredibly costly genetic disease that will bankrupt you even with good insurance. If you avoid getting health care throughout your life, you're going to tend to be less healthy...and then eventually you'll need costly care, and in the end you haven't saved any money at all.

      I agree we should extend the benefits of Medicare. In fact, let's extend it to cover everyone in the US, i.e. Medicare Part E (for everyone.) Great idea, I'm glad you recommended it. You do realize Medicare is a single payer system right?

      Cato Institute? Puh-lease. Why don't you just link directly to redstate.com or huffingtonpost.com? It would be just as fair and balanced as anything from the Cato Institute, a well-known libertarian think tank that is opposed to the government being in charge of anything.

      The free market has had plenty of time to demonstrate to us exactly how they handle healthcare insurance. If the free market worked, healthcare in the US wouldn't be in the state it is today. Instead what we get with free market healthcare is preexisting conditions, yearly and lifetime benefit limits, insurance companies that spend all their time figuring out how to not pay claims, insurance companies that will cancel your coverage if you have an expensive claim and forgot to mention on your insurance application that you had acne treatment when you were 17, etc.

      I've worked in the healthcare industry for over 10 years, and I've been on both ends: I worked for an insurance company, and I work now for a healthcare clinic. Please don't try to tell me that insurance companies' hands are tied by the government, and that's why costs are high and coverage is bad. Insurance companies are in the business to make as much money as they can, and they do that by paying as little as they can, and charging as much money as they can get away with. Any savings they pass on to shareholders, they don't cut costs to their customers. They also raise costs to providers by each one having their own highly specific rules about how claims must be submitted and formatted, what information needs to be sent with each claim, etc. If the insurance companies would get together and decide on a set of common rules, we could reduce complexity and cost for providers and patients. But instead we have a Business Office with around 20 employees, processing claims for 30 physicians. It's sure great for providing a lot of jobs, but increases the prices for everyone.

      Not sure where you got the part about "everyone who disagrees with you is an inhuman monster who just wants poor people to suffer and die". Was that directed at me, or just at some caricature Democrat/liberal/socialist that you are assuming I am?

    34. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good, if you retire then some recent med school grad can actually find a job! They will be more than happy to suck up the hugely phat ass check they'll be getting. See you *think* you are worth a lot more than you actually are. What will actually happen is that because of your 4 cars, 2 vacation homes, and extra mistresses you will take whatever the fuck the gov throws out to you. We all got bills to pay and unless you are quite close to dead, retiring would severaly limit the fun you'd be having in retirement. So no, you'll take the job, cause it will still pay more than SSI, pension, a job as a walmart greeter, or any other thing you think you'll be doing when you retire.

      OH! we can't always get what we waaant, no we can't always get what we waaaant.....

    35. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even if you think they will eventually revoke your healthcare rights because you are too damned fat, ride a motorcycle, happen to be a purple person, or whatever dumbass scenario you can pull from your ass, if you do need care, just go to the emergency room like all of us currently uninsured people do and you'll get enough care to not die. You people and your death panels......

    36. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      I hate to break it to you, but you probably aren't concierge quality... Sorry...

    37. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by JWW · · Score: 1

      Yeah, sure smart ass. I've seen "I'm Just a Bill" on schoolhouse rock.

      But Obama drove the creation and lobbied congress heavily for the bill. If he'd have wanted a singular exchange, he could have gotten it. But he played along with give backs to the insurance industry so they wouldn't fight Obamacare.

      However, the Republicans, in an example of arguing against a compromise that would help make a bad bill better would have argued like mad against a singular national health insurance exchange anyway.

    38. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Practicing medicine is not just a job and the earning potential for recent medical school graduates has been greatly diminished. Sorry, but the remainder of your response is nonsensical. And FYI, if I retired next Monday, I would earn the same or more from investment income, then drawing a paycheck from the practice.

    39. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must be with the AMA :-) No hard feelings, eh?

    40. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If China counts as "most of the rest of the civlised world," the U.S could also start harvesting organs from prisoners. Good thing the U.S. is moving towards catching up to those guys!

      Seriously though, medical care is a zero sum game. It doesn't work unless only a few people get a lot more benefit than the majority. We'll call those people the 1%, and the 99% will be happy that they did their moral duty and paid up!

    41. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you name any daily expense in your life where single payer does NOT make sense? That is the slippery slope that people are afraid of.

    42. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I assume that you want the greatest good for the greatest number of people

      Nice try. I know what you mean by that. 80% of the population gets excellent care, while 20% gets no care. Guess what? In that world, the 80% are the haves, and 20% the have-nots. Like I said, nice try.

      What I want is for 100% of the population to have access to at least decent health care. The top 2% can get their super-duper-platinum plan if they want.

    43. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by foniksonik · · Score: 1

      Health care is not trauma care. You're an idiot. Quality of life and lifestyle moderation is exactly what good healthcare is about.

      Do you take your car to a body shop to get your brake pads replaced? If you wait long enough you may have to (have your rotors planed). Maintenance can prevent a lot of problems. Health care is good maintenance.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
    44. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by foniksonik · · Score: 1

      Some other beachheads: clean water, large nature reserves, national defense, education, energy, roads and transportation, wireless communications, interstate commerce - to name a few.

      They may have faults and all would benefit from an overlay of local policy (many do have this via state laws and regulations) but all are effective enough and all are governed by standards and policies set by a central authority.

      Health care should be in this list. It is a national concern at the very least. The health and well being of each citizen directly impacts the success of the nation. Any amount of standard health care will improve the effectiveness of our workforce, the success rates of our education system and the ability for all to participate more fully in our economy (as consumers of goods and services). It's no different than providing access to clean water and waste disposal (sewage). You allow every provider to set their own standards and watch as our society crumbles.

      A rising tide lifts all ships. National health care is a rising tide.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
    45. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      Health care is not trauma care. You're an idiot. Quality of life and lifestyle moderation is exactly what good healthcare is about.

      Do you take your car to a body shop to get your brake pads replaced? If you wait long enough you may have to (have your rotors planed). Maintenance can prevent a lot of problems. Health care is good maintenance.

      So... you take away people's choices in what they eat, force them to exercise, require them to visit a "provider" periodically (ensuring that enough are trained in that field, regardless of their wishes), and soon you'll have lots of much healthier ... slaves. Great plan, Your Grace!

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    46. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Magius_AR · · Score: 1

      Tell me again what the point of insurance companies is?

      To keep your life/finances from being ruined: when your house burns down, when your car gets t-boned, when a sudden disability makes you unable to work, when your spouse dies and you can't afford the bills...etc, etc, etc. Insurance has a purpose -- it is just implemented in a backward and pisspoor fashion in medicine (largely but not solely in part due to the government mucking about with it)

    47. Re:Learning from what other countries have done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (Posting AC because I did a bit of moderation)

      Just because 70% of the population wants something, doesn't mean it is a good idea. We may well end up with a single payer system. Good luck finding a doctor when we do.

      How elitist of you! You must be an advocate of central control...

      There are many things we could have done to bring down the cost of medical care. eg. Force doctors to post their prices. Not force insurance agencies into "must provide" plans. Allow insurance to be purchased across state lines, etc... Hell, just bring back the free market's risk/reward concept to the medical world. Sadly, none of these options will ever see the light of day. But don't let my ranting get in the way of your utopian view of how a single payer system will solve everything.

      Oh yeah, because like to do comparative shopping while I am bleeding to death. The only person around here with a utopian view is you with your religious devotion to the "free market".

      Meanwhile, I will sit here and wait quietly in the VA hospital for my chance to be seen... I am told it might be next Thursday.

      I have been to the doctor in at least two socialized medicine countries (UK & NZ) and neither time did I have any appreciable wait. It was also cheap, even though I was not in their system. That's right: single payer was cheaper and faster for me as an outsider than the US system is for me as an insider.

      Indicentally, if you think that you have a long wait when you have insurance, imagine what it is like when you don't have any...

  9. Standardization is the right approach by msobkow · · Score: 2

    Remember the EDI systems of old? Have you worked with XML today?

    Those data transfer systems only work because the information formats are standardized amongst the products that claim to support them.

    Unfortunately, EDI standards were often a "kitchen sink" approach with a bazillion "optional" message components to cater to the "special features" of vendors who had enough clout to demand that they be supported.

    A rational, clean, genuine reworking and reengineering of data streams would lead to interoperability and the ability to share information between all the different components involved, while allowing specialized features to be tailored to the vertical segments of the marketplace (doctor's office, hospital, pharmacy, and so on.)

    The unfortunate thing for the IT industry is that there are very few verticals within the horizontal, so if the "big players" provide for those markets, there is little to no market left for anyone who wants to get a foot in the door. I'd be willing to bet that 90% or more of the negative comments in this thread about the initiative are from people who work with or for those smaller players, and who see their jobs disappearing as the megaproviders take over.

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    1. Re:Standardization is the right approach by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      Instead of all of this why not have the government provide one piece of software that does this for free to doctors and let that also be the reference implementation?

    2. Re:Standardization is the right approach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The unfortunate thing for the IT industry is that there are very few verticals within the horizontal, so if the "big players" provide for those markets, there is little to no market left for anyone who wants to get a foot in the door.

      Isn't this the way most new markets develop, with the barrier to entry rising as the products mature and the minimum viable product becomes more complex?

  10. I'll Bite by Cornwallis · · Score: 2

    As one in the field the only thing "savvy" about the [fill-in-the-blank-government-agency] strategy is the salespeople getting the government to throw boatloads of money at shit that once again WILL FAIL TO DELIVER.

    1. Re:I'll Bite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, I don't know. Nothing screams "savvy" as aptly using terms "horizontal integration" and "vertical integration" in the same sentence.

  11. Apples and Oranges by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Other countries have single payer health care, which delivers better outcomes at a lower cost. Try learning from that.

    Those are free, democratic and egalitarian societies with a socialist bent.

    We in the US, OTOH, are a feudal republic with an ignorant population that is under the delusion that all they have to do is work hard and they'll be rich.

  12. Tech savy? by Picass0 · · Score: 1

    >> 'I think what we're trying to do is the equivalent of what you've got in the Internet, which is horizontal integration rather than vertical integration...'

    It's always fun listening to a suit try to describe the interwebs using MBA terminology.

    Next we can look forward to listening to health care issues described as "target markets" and "economies of scale".

  13. "Make it more like the Internet...." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, we are to turn our health IT environment into one of the most easily abused and hostile IT environments ever created. What could POSSIBLY go wrong?

  14. Mod up parent!!! by Presto+Vivace · · Score: 2

    it's not too late, we could still pass HR 676, Medicare for All.

    1. Re:Mod up parent!!! by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

      it's not too late, we could still pass HR 676, Medicare for All.

      Doesn't matter if it's the best idea humanity ever came up with, it won't go anywhere in its current form.

      Now, were it to be renamed the Anti-Terrorism Immigration Marriage For the Children to Protect America Act, we might actually be able to move the ball forward...

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    2. Re:Mod up parent!!! by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Now, were it to be renamed the Anti-Terrorism Immigration Marriage For the Children to Protect America Act, we might actually be able to move the ball forward...

      ATIMFCPAA is a terrible acronym. Ahtimpfkapahah?

  15. Making it Easier for the NSA to get your records by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It sounds like making more of your personal information available to the NSA to me.

  16. Remind us how many Republicans voted for it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's kind of hard to blame any of it on the Republicans since they were not at all involved in the meetings and didn't vote for it.

    1. Re:Remind us how many Republicans voted for it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, no facts allowed in the supremely partisan Obamacare creation.
      All behind closed doors. The dems got EXACTLY what they drafted.
      If you think otherwise please get back on Reddit where you belong.

  17. Germans and Swiss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Other countries have single payer health care, which delivers better outcomes at a lower cost. Try learning from that.

    And those countries do that by either gaming the statistics, or having a homogenized society where social pressure to conserve public resources can be successfully applied.

    Or look to the German or Swiss models which have private insurance companies, but must be run as non-profits.

  18. SUPER SAVVY! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1. "We need to pass [the Obamacare bill] to find out what's in it!" --Nancy Pelosi

    2. We want to give this great healthcare to everybody! (except us - Congress & unions are exempt) -- Barack Obama

    3. "2014 elections aren't looking too great for Democrats, so we're delaying Obamacare until after." --White House

    SAVVY!

  19. Heh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "What's the path of least regret in what we need to do?"

    Repeal.

  20. What could possibly go wrong? by BobandMax · · Score: 1

    The U.S. government's track record on security, efficiency and effectiveness is unmatched. This is sure to succeed!

    --

    "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."
    -- Pablo Picasso
  21. My Doctors Cannot Store My Data Electronically by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have no problem with whatever anyone wants to do with regards to health care reform, but I value my privacy, so my doctors aren't allowed to store my medical records electronically.

  22. What Happened to Audit trails by rhalstead · · Score: 1

    According to what I've read (Does the press ever get anything technical correct?) It appears that at least in some software already in use there are no audit trails. USED TO BE the FDA required all software used in the medical industry to be validated. This is not the engineering validation, but rather you have to prove every single operation, starting with the log in. Take that log-in for example. You had to log-in with a valid name and PW. Print the screen before pressing enter and again after to prove the results. Then you log in with a valid name and PW with one extra character appended to the PW. Print screen before and after. Next it is a valid name and PW, minus one character on the PW and again, print screen before and after. Now repeat withe name + and - one character. You also had to do it with empty fields. Test results were not only typed and length critical. IE numeric, character, number of digits, and if appropriate, digits each side of the decimal.. I started with a list a bit over 1" thick. When I finished I had a stack of printouts over 4 feet tall. Every entry had an audit trail as well. So with all these requirements, how could the mistakes happen that the press is talking about and blaming the software? Did Obama, in his great wisdom decide that we programmers and engineers are good enough the software doesn't need to be tested, or is the press making up stories to sell? Me? I believe there is a very high probability of both. Obama has proven, like the general public he has little to no knowledge of anything technical. If he thinks it is so, then it has to be so. The press OTOH has taken to invention of many stories that are patently false and ignore those that oppose their beliefs. True reporting has disappeared and the press is just emulating the talking heads. Long gone are the days where trustworthy information came from the press. at least 30 or 40 years ago they at least made the attempt. Now they don't even try to hide the bias. I have seen the electronic medical system work great. Any doctor "within that system" can instantly access all of your medical records. Cardiologist, neurologist,family Doctor, and even Physical therapist have instant access to all your records. Medications are visible, compared for side effects and interactions. to prevent one Dr from proscribing something that could dangerously interact with what you are already taking. Get badly hurt in an accident and the ER has everything at their fingertips. So is this an isolated example, is the press reporting on isolated examples, the press reporting on anecdotal reports, or are there really cases of non validated, crappy software being allowed to be implemented without following FDA requirements? They've taken many shortcuts in other areas that make the entire affordable care act neither affordable or safe and looking like it was crafted by a bunch of amateurs who had no idea as to what was needed.