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NSA Admits Searching "3 Hops" From Suspects

Posted by timothy on from the extrapolation-nation dept.

New submitter cpitman writes "In a house hearing Wednesday the NSA admitted that it could query not only a suspect's records, but also perform up to a 'three hop query'. Considering that most people in the world are separated by under 6 degrees of separation, the NSA essentially claims that any single suspect gives them rights to investigate a large chunk of the world's population. With the terror watch list having over 700,000 names, just how many times has Kevin Bacon been investigated?"

15 of 322 comments (clear)

  1. Can we discuss the fourth amendment now? by intermodal · · Score: 5, Insightful

    At this revelation, it doesn't take a libertarian to point out that this isn't based on probable cause.

    --
    In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
    1. Re:Can we discuss the fourth amendment now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Court rulings have excluded pen register records from the 4th amendment. Pen register records were records of what numbers had been dialed from a phone line and to a phone line. This will be the administration's defense of these practices in the just-filed court cases.

      These cases could go either way, but I expect the court to be skeptical about the government's current practices of routinely collecting this data on millions of Americans.

      We need to protest loudly, as these programs are also a gigantic waste of money. Any kind of analytics on this data would result in myriad false positives. The whole exercise is pointless.

    2. Re:Can we discuss the fourth amendment now? by TWX · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That just proves that it's more like Brave New World than it is like 1984.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    3. Re:Can we discuss the fourth amendment now? by Phrogman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In order to simplify the FISA applications, the NSA has simply divided the world into 4 populations, and by means of this 3 hop capability, the application can simply read "Group 1", "Group 2", "Group 3" or "Group 4", although there may be an "All of the Above" option, who knows.
      In any case the applications are stamped as Approved prior to being completed.

      --
      "The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
    4. Re:Can we discuss the fourth amendment now? by Nyder · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nope. The real estate agent is 1 hop. They pull all his records. The daughter is 2 hops. They pull all her records. The mechanic is 3 hops. They pull all his records.

      3 hops. The fact that the mechanic serviced your car will be captured, even though they never made the 4th hop to pull your records directly.

      And suddenly the mechanic becomes a "suspect" and they pull his records, and the peoples cars he's worked on records and the owners of the cars records.

      Rinse, repeat.

      --
      Be seeing you...
    5. Re:Can we discuss the fourth amendment now? by MikeBabcock · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Use your own brains -- the NSA doesn't know who its interested in in advance, so they collect as much information as possible to use in later analysis once they find out who might be connected to a person of interest.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    6. Re:Can we discuss the fourth amendment now? by LordLucless · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because we all know the population of the world is hierarchically organised into platoons...

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
  2. I think what's clear by DarkOx · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think whats clear is that despite the apologists claims to the contrary; be they from the NSA, Administration, or Congress there was no effective oversize of these programs. Feel good political firewalls are not a strategy. Its a universal truth just about any information gathered will be turned to unintended ends. All it will ever take is some SOB come along and make the right excuses and justifications, creatively define a few terms and suddenly the laws governing the use of the data are meaningless.

    If we don't want our government to abuse this type of data the only solution bar them from getting it in the first place.

    --
    Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
  3. Re:Congress is "angry" by sexconker · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The first paragraph of TFA is:

    The National Security Agency revealed to an angry congressional panel on Wednesday that its analysis of phone records and online behavior goes exponentially beyond what it had previously disclosed.

    If it's true that members of Congress are angry, that's favorable news! Maybe they can be persuaded to get off their butts and do something about this.

    They only thing they're angry about is the fact that people found out.

  4. Re:Congress is "angry" by rhizome · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Has anybody mapped the anger to members who are up for re-election in 2014? Feinstein isn't up until 2016 I think, and she doesn't appear to be bummed about it at all.

    --
    When I was a kid, we only had one Darth.
  5. What kind of connection? by gmuslera · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I.e. if the connection is "read something that a suspect may have posted in a site", we should be all in that list, plus everyone 2 hops away from us.

  6. Re:It's 4.74, not 6 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The problem with your thinking is that the Dunbar number is limited by our brains. The internet and the NSA do not forget.

    Remember that guy who emailed you about that craigslist posting you put up a few years ago? No? Well, the NSA does.

  7. Re:Congress is "angry" by Guru80 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Of course members of congress are "Angry"TM, so "Angry"TM that they will make sure they let everyone that matters to their election know how "Angry"TM they are. They will even get all huffy and yell and tell the room they are so "Angry"TM and it isn't acceptable. Maybe even pound their fist and wag a finger all for the "Angry"TM dramatic flair....then go out for coffee and do absolutely nothing about it.

  8. Re:It's 4.74, not 6 by hurfy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Well, if we start here with my 2726006 closest friends.......

    (yes it's actually more but i can't find the number anywhere, that was the biggest ID within a few pages)

  9. Re:Congress is "angry" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We'll see how it turns out. I won't be surprised if in the long run it turns out to be a riff on the old medical saw: The (intelligence) operations were a success, but the citizens died.

    You really think that after all this country has been though, we're going to fall (or even worse: "...the citizens [die]") because of a few incompetent fools with explosive underwear and pressure cookers? Hell, if we had a 9/11 style incident (the worst attack on US soil) every day, it would take 291 years to kill all of the US citizens. That is a pretty pathetic threat to the US. Way more pathetic than the Cold War, which we were proud to keep our way of life throughout.

    I can't believe 9/11 turned us into such a bunch of pussies.