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Dutch Government: Number of Internet Taps Has Quintupled In One Year

Posted by Soulskill on from the go-big-or-go-home dept.

vikingpower writes "A Dutch newspaper has a digital version of the letter Mr. Opstelten, Secretary of Justice and Security, sent to Dutch Parliament (PDF in Dutch), in which he quietly admits to 56,825 phone taps (a 3% rise in one year) and to 16,676 internet taps in 2012, a 400% rise, or a fivefold increase, in one year. An older report already exposed the Netherlands as one of the biggest wiretappers in the western world. Slate also knew, back in 2006, that Europeans actually love wiretapping and internet tapping. In the Netherlands, a country with a population of only 16 million, the practice has risen to the level of a staggering 1 in 1,000 phones being tapped."

26 of 49 comments (clear)

  1. Where is the Dutch equivalent of Snowden by quarkie68 · · Score: 1

    Oh dear. In Europe, we are so advanced that we do not need people like Snowden to be heroes (the process of deciding to work for NSA directly or through contracting, thinking that you never go against people's privacy and one day you discover that is not the case and you go and leak info, wow!) and leak the info. Ministers do it instead! :-)

    1. Re:Where is the Dutch equivalent of Snowden by intermodal · · Score: 1

      I'll take truth-telling officials over what we've got here in the the States. As best as I can tell, they've got 100% of the lines tapped and just aren't listening to them here.

      --
      In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
    2. Re:Where is the Dutch equivalent of Snowden by quarkie68 · · Score: 1

      I'll take truth-telling officials over what we've got here in the the States. As best as I can tell, they've got 100% of the lines tapped and just aren't listening to them here.

      Nahhh! If they had the tech to get 100% of the lines tapped AND listen to it, the US cash flow would be different. It's good to develop good DPI, lots of nice HPC tech is generated with the idea as the basis.

    3. Re:Where is the Dutch equivalent of Snowden by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      FYI, I think the original comment refers to statements made by two old Prime Ministers that commented in a National Geographic Documentary about the Dutch Airforce and the possession of nuclear weapons in the Airbase Vokkel.

      Which, really is a public secret, since most people know about it anyway since the 80's and our F-16's have a (non-standard)nuclear strike panel in the cockpit. It is reasoned this is influencing the decision to buy the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Which is now possibly causing a revolt in parlement, and comments have been made concerning a parliamentary inquiry to the acquisition of this aircraft. Even if this wouldnt be true then buying this aircraft would still prove difficult to the coalition, given that one of the two ruling party's always has been fervently opposed to this type.

      Going back to the wiretapping, it also has been common knowledge that its a unhealthy ammount in The Netherlands, but for some reason it has never upset people enough, which quite frankly I find scary and saddening. Sometimes I feel that we are already further ahead on the slippery slope then some other les reputable countries(whatever that still means).

      captcha: acceptor, how fitting..

    4. Re:Where is the Dutch equivalent of Snowden by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      One guy? You think that's all this is about? I suggest you go back and do more reading, you aren't getting it. I suppose there is no rush though. The Netherlands, like a growing number of countries in Europe, has a big problem brewing that won't being going away soon, if ever. If you can't see it today, you will someday.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
  2. 1 in 1000? by jklovanc · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I wonder if they took the 22,000 wire tap orders and an estimated 22 million phones and came up with that figure. That may not be accurate. Wire tap orders expire. There could be 12 wire tap orders to keep a 12 month watch on one phone. Multiple agencies may want information from the same phone; therefore multiple wire tap orders.

    1. Re:1 in 1000? by quarkie68 · · Score: 1

      Why don't you write him and ask for an answer. You will probably get it. After that, you will never be alone in your phone/internet conversations :-) .

    2. Re:1 in 1000? by hankwang · · Score: 1

      "... if they took the 22,000 wire tap orders and an estimated 22 million phones and came up with that figure. That may not be accurate."

      The letter states that there were 25k wire-tap orders over 2012 and that this is explicitly not the number of suspects, since some suspects use "very many" phone numbers. The letter doesn't mention 1 in 1000; that's the media spin on it.

      Why does slashdot post an artocle about Netherlands at midnight local time?

      --
      Avantslash: low-bandwidth mobile slashdot.
  3. Re:BUT THEN THEY ARE TOO STONED TO USE ANY OF IT ! by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1, Funny

    What does a stoner government do with anything for that matter !!

    "Duuuuude... Citizen 432B61 just ordered some pizzas! We gotta legislate ourselves some of that action! But first, pass the ClogginBong this way..."

    OK, so I admit I know precisely dick about Dutch government, but I can't resist an opportunity to make fun of stoners.

    --
    An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  4. Did it work? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

    Ignoring the human dignity issues, my question is what did they get in exchange for going NSA on their own asses?

    Did it reduce the rate of crimes related to the wiretap investigations? I don't mean just raw numbers, I mean trendwise before and after the massive increase wiretapping what (if anything) changed?

    --
    When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    1. Re:Did it work? by 1s44c · · Score: 2

      Ignoring the human dignity issues, my question is what did they get in exchange for going NSA on their own asses?

      Did it reduce the rate of crimes related to the wiretap investigations? I don't mean just raw numbers, I mean trendwise before and after the massive increase wiretapping what (if anything) changed?

      The Netherlands doesn't start wars and doesn't join them if at all possible. The Netherlands isn't really racist enough against any group to make it a target of any great terrorist act. The only possible reason for this level of domestic spying in the Netherlands is to keep lazy overpaid government bureaucrats in jobs.

    2. Re:Did it work? by erikkemperman · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, mr Fjord has found a hit in his database of links to make his point, and is now posting the results, repeatedly. Clearly everyone should be scared shitless, like he is, of those evil Muslims. They are gaining way too much influence in "our" western countries, even though "we" would never ever dream of interfering in theirs. Take it from a Dutch guy: you are wrong.

      --
      Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
    3. Re:Did it work? by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      Well Mr. Dutch guy, now I am curious. Is Mr. Theo Van Goth not truly dead? Are all of those European papers wrong about events in the Netherlands? It is common for people to be poorly informed about events even in their own country. Are you quite sure that I'm the one who is wrong, and about what? You don't have to be afraid of Muslims to understand that many of them reject your values. In the long term that will have consequences. Many people prefer to not think about that.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    4. Re:Did it work? by erikkemperman · · Score: 2

      Your examples are not so much untrue as they are selective. In fact, they are mostly about a single incident, and the echoes of that event -- which included some predictable attempts by some opportunistic politicians, and hence the mainstream media, to frame it as a debate about ethnicity, race, religion and the Greatness of Our Heritage. Populist far right, that is, who seem to have moved on since to Eurobashing.

      Obviously the murder of Theo Van Gogh was a terrible crime, and yes his murderer claims to have acted on religious impulse -- van Gogh was a buffoon who insulted people for his own amusement, and found an especially rewarding response when insulting Islam so he really went to town. I shouldn't have to point out that this doesn't warrant his death, and fortunately the culprit was tried and convicted.

      But you'd be wrong, in my opinion, to say that this one guy represents his religion, whether he himself claims to or not. In the same way, I don't consider Protestants represented by some anti-abortion terrorists, the Catholics by some pedophile priests or the Jews by some murderous settlers.

      It's just that, in his mind, "defending my group" is less dishonorable than the blind undirected rage that affected him as an individual. If not Van Gogh, this guy would have found some other victim and possibly some other non-justification. The more likely real reasons for such rage, in this case and certain others, is the fact that this huge part of the population in our major cities have long suffered injustice.

      The first generation were proactively recruited from the lower to zero educated ranks of remote rural areas of (disproportionally) Turkey and Morocco, to leave their homes and lands and to do our shitiest jobs for peanuts. Hardly any attempts were made at integration. As long as you had a single guy per crew who knew five Dutch words you were good to go. Now everybody is surprised that their kids don't magically all graduate from universities and, in stead, feel marginalized and frustrated.

      I don't expect, or even wish, for everyone in my country to share all my values. I expect to live in a country where systems are in place to determine some common denomination of all our values. And I still believe the Netherlands is such a place. Despite a very few, but in compensation vocal and and hysterical, voices to the contrary.

      So really, everyday life in my country is not at all adequately described by the links you posted.

      --
      Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
    5. Re:Did it work? by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      They have a problem with far-right nutters just like a lot of other places, it's really a tiny but vocal group.

      You can walk around what's described as the 'sharia triangle' above at any time in the day or night and you are very unlikely to see any trouble except maybe drunks peeing in the streets in the small hours.

  5. Re:Geert wilders! by 1s44c · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Blame Geert Wilders!

    Blame one far-right candidate for the actions of the entire government? I don't think so, the problem is systemic.

  6. See, Here's the Problem by Greyfox · · Score: 1
    Joe Average User, who doesn't know anything about the internet, assumes that we, the guys who built the Internet, made sure that all his communications would be secure from eavesdropping by... whoever. He also assumes that his posts are anonymous and won't come back to bite him in the ass when he's looking for a job. Neither one of these assumptions is at all true. The problem is that back when we were building it we really didn't think that many people would be using it and everyone who was using it at the time knew everyone else. Most of us stopped working on it after three or four years of endless September and the corporations who took it over really didn't have any incentive to secure it at that point.

    Way I see it, we have two options, neither of which will work. We can fix this shit ourselves and wrest control of our communications back from the corporations. Except there are several projects (like Tor) which attempt to do this and those are ignored by most of the people who say that being monitored by everyone bugs them. We could also petition the corporations and governments who are behaving badly and demand that they behave better. Then we could hold our breaths and see what happens.

    Which leads us to the third option, which is suck it up and live with it. Seems like most people are picking that one.

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

    1. Re:See, Here's the Problem by Greyfox · · Score: 1
      Oh sure. And I have nothing to hide either. And neither does Joe Average User, assuming he lives in a country that doesn't consider his goat porn habit illegal. But even if the various three letter agencies weren't listening at all, your internet provider (and google) has no incentive to make it easier for you to encrypt your packets or your E-mail. If they do, they can't inject their ads into your data stream. There was a project for opportunistic encryption for ipv4 a while back, that didn't go anywhere. IIRC opportunistic encryption for ipv6 was killed by the standards board.

      Basically the upshot of all that is if you're worried about this sort of thing, use tor and stop being hysterical about it. If you're not, suck it up and stop being hysterical about it.

      --

      I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  7. Okay they're spying. Let's accept that by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

    Their machines have to connect to listen. Why aren't we spying on them?

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  8. One has to by no-body · · Score: 1

    really question all this stuff. Not the numbers, but the purpose. Are the guys initiating and using this do it instead of doodling on paper?

    Seems that just because the technology is available it is used and expanded without questioning the purpose and effect.

    On top of it most happens under a veil of secrecy and when disclosed/caught it's defended and even more covered up or the whistle blowers are criminalized.

    I can maybe understand that some software package like Prism is developed and the wow effect of all what can be seen with it may be there. Is it useful and adequate or does it lead to more suspects by association and then events like that:
    http://www.salon.com/2013/07/10/militarized_police_overreach_oh_god_i_thought_they_were_going_to_shoot_me_next%E2%80%9D/

  9. Opstelten by Mister+Liberty · · Score: 1

    remember the name -- one of the biggest nitwits in Dutch politics.

    All pomp and no substance. BUT.... as a politician wont to cause
    a lot of harm to individuals and society. He's Dutch liberal party,
    which --read on-- is the Dutch conservative party. Conserve as
    in record, keep track, survey, store, use when opportune.

    A regualr fucker. Opstelten 's his name.

    1. Re:Opstelten by zwarte+piet · · Score: 1

      Why would I want to remember nitwit's name?

  10. Re:Geert wilders! by FatdogHaiku · · Score: 1

    Blame Geert Wilders!

    Blame one far-right candidate for the actions of the entire government? I don't think so, the problem is systemic.

    See, I would have gone with "the problem is chronic"...

    --
    You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
  11. Re:BUT THEN THEY ARE TOO STONED TO USE ANY OF IT ! by Caesar+Tjalbo · · Score: 1

    We evolved our phone service into a public broadcasting system.

    --
    "I'm not much interested in interoperability. I want substitutability. I want to be able to throw your software out."
  12. Statistical BS by podz · · Score: 1

    The statistics are only referring to the normal police, not the intelligence services. In the USA, the intelligence services tap 100% of the people. In the USA, the police don't even need a warrant to do a "wiretap" so there is no oversight. In the USA, county police departments routinely monitor the positions of people on probation via warrantless cellphone tracking.

    Amsterdam is to global intelligence agencies what Las Vegas is to gamblers - they all go there at least once and many of them maintain a constant presence there. Amsterdam is the global exchange for the drug, money laundering, prostitution and human trafficking market. Intelligence services around the world fund their covert activities via the illegal business deals they carry out in Amsterdam.

    Amsterdam has always been a trading city. The Dutch police keep a pretty close watch on things but they are largely unintrusive. If a tourist is being harassed, though, a burly plainclothes policeman will appear almost out of thin air to handle the situation.

  13. great propaganda too by stenvar · · Score: 1

    And the European propaganda machine is also doing very well, telling citizens "don't worry about our wiretapping, at least we aren't America!"