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How Joel Spolsky Shot Down a Microsoft Patent In 15 Minutes

Thornburg contributes news of a story spotted on Techmeme, writing: "[Joel Spolsky of] Joel On Software has a story about how he found and submitted prior art for a Microsoft patent listed on Ask Patents in 15 minutes. The patent was rejected based largely on the document he submitted." Spolsky gives a very readable introduction to the patent system, and software patents in particular; I especially like this part: "Software patent applications are of uniformly poor quality. They are remarkably easy to find prior art for. Ask Patents can be used to block them with very little work. And this kind of individual destruction of one software patent application at a time might start to make a dent in the mountain of bad patents getting granted. ... How cool would it be if Apple, Samsung, Oracle and Google got into a Mexican Standoff on Ask Patents? If each of those companies had three or four engineers dedicating a few hours every day to picking off their competitors’ applications, the number of granted patents to those companies would grind to a halt."

45 of 175 comments (clear)

  1. Mutually Assured Destruction by Joining+Yet+Again · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The big boys build weaponry to keep each other in check, and to eliminate all the smaller boys.

    Works nicely for them all.

    Don't know why they'd rock the boat.

    1. Re:Mutually Assured Destruction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Works nicely for them all.

      Not any more.

      "The ‘irrelevance of Microsoft’ illustrated in a single chart
      Microsoft’s share of connected device sales peaked at more than 90% in early 2009. Consider that for a moment — more than nine out of every 10 connected devices sold were powered by a Microsoft operating system. Fast forward to the first quarter of 2013 and Microsoft’s share of connected device sales has plummeted to just over 20%."
      http://bgr.com/2013/07/22/microsoft-market-share-connected-devices/

    2. Re:Mutually Assured Destruction by jeffmeden · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The big boys build weaponry to keep each other in check, and to eliminate all the smaller boys.

      Works nicely for them all.

      Don't know why they'd rock the boat.

      This, thread over. It "would be cool" as Joel points out, if the patent gorillas did their own policing via Ask Patents but it will never happen, they are in a profitable standoff now, why would they ever want to trade it for an unprofitable one?

      Come up with a way to force peer review with proper incentives (maybe for every one you submit you must read and sign off on three more, and the more you shoot down the higher on the list yours goes for priority granting if it passes) and you might have a system that starts to work in a quasi-normal way.

    3. Re:Mutually Assured Destruction by farrellj · · Score: 5, Interesting

      So let's change the rules...create a Kickstarter campaign to fund a patent-bounty system. If funded, the fund pays out $10 per-patent that is squashed. Suddenly, it becomes a game for people to compete with each other to kill off patents. Even if a person can only do one an hour, that is better pay than minimum wage in many US States, or around the world. And once a year, they can throw a conference, and give out awards to the top "sharp-shooters" who kill off the most patents!

      Turn killing bad patents into a game where you can make money, and we can have the patent-trolls slain in short order!

      --
      CAN-CON 2019 - Ottawa's only book oriented Science Fiction Convention! October 18-20, Sheraton Hotel, Ottawa, Canada h
    4. Re:Mutually Assured Destruction by ArcadeMan · · Score: 3, Funny

      The irrelevance of who?

    5. Re:Mutually Assured Destruction by CastrTroy · · Score: 2

      Yes, but only because they started connecting a whole new class of devices. Microsoft isn't interested in making fridges, but some of those are connected to the internet now. They still have over 90% of the PC market, which is undergoing some shrinkage due to people not needing to upgrade as often, but MS still has a very sustainable market. They might need to lay off a few people, but it's not like MS is going to disappear completely. Even if they lost the entire consumer market because everybody wanted to use Android or IOS at home, they would still have a big market with the business market as Android and IOS seem to be completely ignoring.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    6. Re:Mutually Assured Destruction by jalopezp · · Score: 3, Informative

      of whom.

    7. Re:Mutually Assured Destruction by fustakrakich · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's alright. Microsoft owns a piece of Apple and all the other players. Only the Microsoft name 'loses' something in this shell game.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    8. Re:Mutually Assured Destruction by cold+fjord · · Score: 5, Funny

      I tried watching Dr. Whom once. Didn't much care for it.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    9. Re:Mutually Assured Destruction by robot_love · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A bunch of small minded people are going to tell you this is impossible, but that's because many people react to new ideas with "I can think of a problem with your idea, therefore it won't work" rather than "let's see how we can make this work".

      I think you may well be on to something. It could be the most important thing you do in your life. Explore this further. If you need someone to write some software for it (a web app?), let me know, and I'll contribute.

      --
      .there is enough of everything for everyone.
    10. Re:Mutually Assured Destruction by bondsbw · · Score: 3, Funny

      Funny, even though the article says that Windows 95 was the peak for Microsoft, the same article says

      PC sales were 59m units in 1995 and rose to over 350m in 2012

      I'll be glad to take some of that failure off their hands.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    11. Re:Mutually Assured Destruction by interkin3tic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Also they're taking the sea urchin approach.

      Sea urchins spew out sperm and eggs into the ocean, making millions of embryos. The numbers is the advantage. Each individual embryo is incredibly weak and defenseless, most will be gulped up by some predator. Doesn't matter, enough will get through for the sea urchin to successfully reproduce.

      This guy shot down a MS patent in 15 minutes? Every bit helps, but until we do something about the thousands of parasitic, idiotic patents that people aren't catching, it won't be much.

      For this metaphor to REALLY fit, sea urchins would have to attach to computers, mobile phones, and technology and eat it. But fortunately they don't. That would be really annoying and gross.

    12. Re:Mutually Assured Destruction by DarkOx · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you really want to tear down the system of software patents though what you want to do is disrupt the balance of power. Right now big industry rivals share patent pools etc because it keeps new guys from entering the market; the pools work because they know if they don't all cooperate anyone of them could totally derail the business of the other.

      So what really really want do is identify the pools, and players. Take a group like RIM/Apple/Google and focus your energy on just one of them. If you invalidate enough of Apple's key patents it puts them in a position where RIM and Google could use theirs as a club to gain market advantage, so Apple will be forced to take swipes at invalidating RIM and Google's patents in order to disarm them. You'd get a force multiplier effect.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    13. Re:Mutually Assured Destruction by samwichse · · Score: 2

      Because the first one to send an FU to its competitors will trigger a hot war?

      It's the prisoner's dilemma really, all it takes is one of the competitors to realize its sinking by maintaining its patent truce with the others and try to get a first-mover advantage by sniping the others patents. Things after that would quickly escalate.

      Just look what happened with the patent lawsuit and Apple.

    14. Re:Mutually Assured Destruction by rjstanford · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Even if a person can only do one an hour...

      You do realize that one per hour is the great exception rather than the rule, right? It probably takes over an hour to read and understand most patents well enough to determine what exactly what nuanced change is being described as novel - not because of obfuscation, but because non-obvious things are non-obvious to explain.

      --
      You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
    15. Re:Mutually Assured Destruction by Hentes · · Score: 2

      Because spawning small troll companies allows them to sue anonymously, thus evading retribution.

    16. Re:Mutually Assured Destruction by neonfrog · · Score: 2
      --

      I'm thinking about it, therefore I might be.

    17. Re:Mutually Assured Destruction by davidbrit2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They'd probably hide the activity behind so many shell companies and legal firms that it might as well be coming from the Huffy bicycle company.

    18. Re:Mutually Assured Destruction by AdamThor · · Score: 2

      The show for pregnant ladies? Oh, sorry. That's Doctor Womb. My mistake, carry on.

      --
      -- "Oh. This guy again."
    19. Re:Mutually Assured Destruction by davester666 · · Score: 2

      Dr. Wh should make for a very interesting series then.
      And Dr. W, you can't handle Dr. W

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    20. Re:Mutually Assured Destruction by meta-monkey · · Score: 2

      All, brb, applying for a software patent on a method to kill software patents. On a computer.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    21. Re:Mutually Assured Destruction by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2

      Maybe if we'd all spent a little more time in the dorms shooting for $10 bounties than headshots, we'd be paying on smaller loans.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    22. Re:Mutually Assured Destruction by excelsior_gr · · Score: 2

      I think that "patent troll exterminator" under my "other interests and qualifications" would look good on my resume: "I believe that I could be an important asset of your legal department".

  2. Huh? by Type44Q · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If each of those companies had three or four engineers dedicating a few hours every day to picking off their competitorsâ(TM) applications, the number of granted patents to those companies would grind to a halt.

    Why would these arguably-sociopathic organizations engage in what amounts to mutually-assured destruction for the sake of leveing the playing field?! :p

  3. Not new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    This outfit (previously covered on /. though I didn't find the link as quickly as I'd wanted it) does something similar, though with a different money model.

    (Full disclosure: No connection to either, though I had email contact with article one at one time.)

  4. Re:Seriously? by MightyYar · · Score: 4, Funny

    I Welched on my bet and it led to a Mexican standoff with another guy who was an Indian giver. In the end we settled it with a game of Russian Roulette. It was chaos, a real Polish Parliament. In the end, the gun didn't go off and we all felt like we were Gypped.

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  5. Read the article. by stewsters · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Here is some more prior art: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mipmap

  6. Standoff? by nitehawk214 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It already is a standoff. The big companies have an unwritten agreement not to assault each other's patents. When one things it has the upper hand it might start a battle such as Apple vs Samsung, but these are rare. This allows them to use their patents to crush smaller companies without being in danger of having their own patents assaulted.

    --
    I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
  7. None of them try very hard by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 5, Informative

    I still don't understand it, but there was a patent issue a few years back, where the smaller player put up a plea to the community for help invalidating a certain patent that the megalocorp was wielding against it.

    Being curious, I did a quick Google Groups search (Splotsky's 15 minutes sounds about right) and submitted the prior art (a then-defunct software package that was announced on a Usenet group which had the same functionality years before).

    A few months later, I got a note from council, asking if I had any contacts with that software company and that they were using my submission as the basis as their challenge, which they ultimately won a couple years later.

    Anyway, the surprise was how easy it was for me to find that prior art when the company hadn't managed to. The work I do overlaps with what they do, so, yeah, I had some domain expertise, but so did their employees.

    FWIW, they never offered me a token copy of their software or anything for my help. I wasn't expecting it (I'd have no use for it anyway - they make complex proprietary configurations of open source software, while I tend to use the simple-blocks model), but it was also surprising to me that there was no follow-up or loop-closing after the fact. So, if you get into this kind of hobby, do it for the knowledge that you're helping defeat a dangerous patent system.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    1. Re:None of them try very hard by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I am very sure some engineer out there wanted to say thank you and legal stepped in and squashed it saying, "no no no, that guy might sue us for money! If we acknowledge we got some benefit from them, they might ask for huge sums of money. It is better to be thought as selfish jerks than to expose the company for huge claims!"

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    2. Re:None of them try very hard by alen · · Score: 2

      i've had a computer since my first coleco vision in 1982 or 1983 and i'm always surprised how these start ups don't find prior art. we had the cloud back in the 80's

      its probably a symptom of being a dumb 20 something where you think the old people are dumb and you are creating something cool and awesome for the first time and you are too lazy to do some of this boring grunt work like researching AOL and CompuServe from the 80's. i mean people of this generation will get the pox just thinking AOL

    3. Re:None of them try very hard by JazzHarper · · Score: 2

      The lawyers aren't really interested in prior art until they think they might actually have to go to court. These days, it's all about licensing (or cross-licensing, between companies that have comparable portfolios), using the _threat_ of litigation. Coming up with prior art to invalidate a patent is absolutely the _last_ thing they consider, when all else fails.

      You don't get to use prior art as a defense unless and until you actually go to trial, which is extremely expensive.

  8. Not a difficult task... by Theaetetus · · Score: 4, Informative
    ... by Joel's own logic. FTFA:

    Have you ever seen a patent application that appears ridiculously broad? (“Good lord, they’re trying to patent CARS!”). Here’s why. The applicant is deliberately overreaching, that is, striving to get the broadest possible patent knowing that the worst thing that can happen is that the patent examiner whittles their claims down to what they were entitled to patent anyway...

    An example might help. Imagine a simple application with these three claims:

    1. A method of transportation
    2. The method of transportation in claim 1, wherein there is an engine connected to wheels
    3. The method of transportation in claim 2, wherein the engine runs on water

    ... Now, suppose you invented the water-powered car. When you submit your patent, you might submit it this way even knowing that there’s prior art for “methods of transportation” and you can’t really claim all of them as your invention. The theory is that (a) hey, you might get lucky! and (b) even if you don’t get lucky and the first claim is rejected, the narrower claims will still stand.

    What he's done is equivalent to finding "a method of transportation," knocking out the ridiculously over-broad claim, which Joel describes as "a long shot lottery ticket". The narrower, dependent claims may still be patentable.

    Additionally, this was the first office action in this patent application (not an issued patent, contrary to the /. summary). Would the Examiner have found this piece of prior art or another piece of prior art that knocks out that over-broad claim? Almost certainly, again according to Joel's logic. In fact, the Examiner went on to using 5 other pieces of prior art to address the dependent claims. Any of those could well anticipate the independent claim too.
    Is it a good thing to crowdsource prior art searches? Absolutely. But people doing the search can't stop at just a single piece of prior art to knock out the one over-broad long shot lottery ticket claim. In Joel's example claims, finding prior art describing a method of transportation may allow you to run a victory lap and get a Slashdot story, but it does nothing for invalidating the claim to an engine that runs on water, which is really what the patent is about.

    1. Re:Not a difficult task... by Theaetetus · · Score: 2

      I think this is actually a bad example, because to infringe on a patent, you actually have to infringe on all the claims.

      That's absolutely incorrect. You have to infringe each and every element in a claim, but only have to infringe a single claim to infringe the patent.

      But I think that was just a misstatement, because you have it right here:

      This is actually a less broad patent, because it would only cover cars, with wheels, that used the engine that ran on water. So if you then took the engine that ran on water, and used it to make a generator (which isn't a method of transportation), you would no longer be in violation of the patent. Similarly, if you used it to make a boat motor, you wouldn't be in violation of the patent, because your boat most likely doesn't have wheels.

      To paraphrase, if the claims are:
      1. A.
      2. The method of claim 1, further comprising B.
      3. The method of claim 2, further comprising C.

      ... then to infringe claim 1, you need only do A. To infringe claim 2, you need to do A+B. To infringe claim 3, you need to do A+B+C. If claim 1 is invalid and too broad, then you can still infringe claim 2 by doing A+B (if it's not invalidated over other prior art). You don't need to do C to infringe claim 2 or infringe the patent.

  9. Re:Seriously? by ArcadeMan · · Score: 2

    I Welched on my bet and it led to a Mexican standoff with another guy who was an Indian giver. In the end we settled it with a game of Russian Roulette. It was chaos, a real Polish Parliament. In the end, the gun didn't go off and we all felt like we were Gypped and the Canadians were sorry about the whole mess even though they were not involved at all.

  10. And in related news by twoears · · Score: 2

    A patent application has been filed for "Single Seating Furniture Anger Relief System", submitted by, you guessed it, Steve Ballmer.

  11. Re:incest by gauauu · · Score: 2

    Has anyone ever detailed the relationship between this guy (J.S.) and Slashdot (editors, readers, seemingly everyone). He (not necessarily undeservedly) has gotten a steady stream of love from this site for many years.

    There's no relationship. Joel's just a well-known blogger that writes fairly intelligently about computing topics. A sort of micro-celebrity in the programming world. People like that end up being quoted and talked about in places like slashdot. Particularly when they do things that relate to the general categories that slashdotters love to get angry about (patents, microsoft, etc).

  12. Goes to show ya by catfood · · Score: 2

    If each of those companies had three or four engineers dedicating a few hours every day to picking off their competitors’ applications, the number of granted patents to those companies would grind to a halt.

    The fact that not one of them is doing that is evidence of collusion. They're using patents to protect their circle and keep lesser entities out.

    1. Re:Goes to show ya by Tawnos · · Score: 2

      Not quite. If we start reading patents, it opens up liability for treble damages should we be found in violation of a patent. For example, we're investigating patents, there's that doesn't have prior art, a few months/years later we're found to be in violation of that patent. At that point their lawyers say "hey, you guys were looking at patents and should have known about this one. Triple the damages!"

  13. Re:Seriously? by Spudley · · Score: 2, Funny

    I Welched on my bet and it led to a Mexican standoff with another guy who was an Indian giver. In the end we settled it with a game of Russian Roulette. It was chaos, a real Polish Parliament. In the end, the gun didn't go off and we all felt like we were Gypped and the Canadians were sorry about the whole mess even though they were not involved at all.

    That whole post was Double-Dutch to me. As confusing as a game of Chinese whispers.

    --
    (Spudley Strikes Again!)
  14. Re:Pixel Density != Resolution by hAckz0r · · Score: 2

    Pixel density can only be a measure as applied to a physical device, because 'density' is a measure of pixels per square cm/mm/um or other standard unit of measure. This is not to be confused with an image comprised of binary bits that can be displayed on anything having the total number of pixels necessary to hold the bits in its display storage, regardless of physical size of the device. A display in time square can have the same number of pixels as your cell phone, but they are orders of magnitudes different in pixel density! Pixel density makes no sense in the manner in which the patent uses it, as this terminology was only meant to obscure the true nature of the patent at issue.

  15. Re:Seriously? by Xenx · · Score: 3, Funny

    It's a simple balance for me.. if they can beat me up, their opinion matters.

  16. Oops or Shill? by s.petry · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Are you just shilling? A quick 10 second Wiki search shows that MS now owns less than 40% of the server market share, down from 80% in their prime. Desktops, it depends on who's stats you believe. Most rate Windows in the high 70% range%, but there is a rating of over 90. Since I see how many people are using MAC now days, I tend to disbelieve the 90%. I won't even get into the amount of PCs as a whole declining so causing MS to lose tons of market share to IOS and Android.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    1. Re:Oops or Shill? by whitroth · · Score: 2

      Um, servers. Apple doesn't do servers - as I understand it, they finally killed off their little "server". Most of the rest: Unix, and overwhelmingly that Unix love child, Linux.

      I work onsite for a federal contractor. In our division, we have well over 100 servers... one? two? run Windows server. Vastly cheaper - no "purchase" cost, unless you buy one of the corporate distros, like RedHat; ditto on annual maintenance fees. Many folks buy a few RHEL licenses... and use free distros for the rest of the servers.

                      mark, sr. systems administrator

  17. Re:Illegal Patents by Rockoon · · Score: 4, Informative

    Its not just licensing. The reason that most things use these older compression algorithms is that they are very near optimal for the memory requirements that they demand. If you want your data format to be decompressible on an embedded device with 1 meg of memory then clearly the decompression algorithm cant demand a 2 megabyte entropy model in practice.

    Lots of compressors are much better than ZIP (with regard to compressed file size), and in fact lots are also much better than RAR which the pirate community so often uses. Nobody is using any of the top 10 methodologies.

    The best compressor for raw bitmaps is currently PAQ8PX which is benchmarked at 1.0392 bits per byte while WINRAR and WINZIP are benchmarked at 1.5194 b/B and 2.4185 b/B respectively. To be clear what I am saying here, that PAQ8PX offers the same level of improvement over WINRAR than WINRAR offers over WINZIP yet still people mainly use ZIP, rarely RAR, and never PAQ.

    If you have ever played with the PAQ family of compressors.. they are dog slow (less than 1 megabyte per second) and use lots of memory (often a gigabyte or more of memory.)

    --
    "His name was James Damore."